Holly Kim (Director of Marketing & Operations at Credibly)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes, but first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back guarantee on this book. I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me, right? I know this is a very different biography is what is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right? So that's the first reason this is a risk and I'm gonna de risk this book for you. Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended. End quote. But here's the thing. In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on five Meerchristians. Calm and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5meerchristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as medical assistants, pastry chefs, and marine biologists, that's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to Holly Kim, the director of marketing and operations at Credibly. Holly and I sat down to talk about how being faithful to God in her career cost her in her career and why that's a good thing. We talked about how to isolate and attack the lies that Satan is feeding you in your head. And we talked about how our peace at work can make space to bear others burdens in our work and give chances to share the gospel. You are not going to want to miss this short, terrific episode with my new friend, Holly Kim. Hey, Holly Kim, welcome to the Mere Christians podcast.

Thank you so much for having me.

Yeah, it's a joy to have you. We love having longtime listeners, first time callers on the show. So, hey, let's start out with your company. Just to get a little bit of context. What is this business that you work for called Credibly? What do you guys do?

Yeah, so Credibly is a small business financing company. We provide small business owners with who might not qualify for, you know, traditional bank loans, who might have lower credit because maybe they had difficulty in the past with finances, with business financing so that they can build their business.

I love it. And we should state at the top of this episode to appease all the attorneys that Holly is speaking for herself personally and not for Credibly. Correct, Holly?

Yes, correct.

Checked the legal requirements. Off. Great. All right, so tell us a little bit about your role. What does your day to day look like within the business?

Yeah, so I am currently the marketing director at Credibly. So we have a smallish team of five. So a lot of times it's all hands on deck. So my day could go from really high level strategic calls to, you know, being in our CRM and just creating workflows myself. And I think a lot of my time is also spent with my direct reports and just in one on ones with them.

Yeah, it's good. All right, so lots of meetings, lots of CRM management and spreadsheets and emails. Very similar to the day to day to so many of our listeners. And hey, like that could be tough. It could be tough in the day to day grind to see the synchronous of that seemingly secular work to remember that that work matters to God even in the mundane. What has you convinced personally that God does care about the work that you're doing at Credibly or any other company?

Yeah, I love this question because I struggled with this for a really long time. And I think as a foundation, you know, there's a lot of scripture that just talks about this in the Bible. You know, he created us to work in the garden. We see him use ordinary workers just all throughout script. And he calls us to do excellent work in the Bible. I think in, like, the experience sense of how I truly felt this to be true in my life, I just see it in the way that he shows up in, like, the smallest of ways when I'm working. Like, if I'm really nervous for a big meeting and I am on my knees in prayer and asking God, like, can you please help me to speak the words that need to be said in this meeting? He truly does show up in a way that I know it's him because I did not have those words to say before the meeting. So I think in those, like, small ways, I just see that God really cares about, like, the work that we do, how we do it, and the impact that we have.

I always ask in pre interviews for the show how the gospel shapes how you do what you do professionally, because I think, listen, providing loans for businesses, I think it's pretty clear to see how God would delight in that work. But the reason why I invited you on the show is because I love this story you shared about this experience early on in your career where you were tempted to join your colleagues in some unethical business practices. Obviously, please don't share the details of where you were working or any names whatever, but I'd love for you to take us into that story and into that temptation and take your time with this. Tell us what was going on here.

Yeah, so this was very early in my career. I had just graduated from college, was trying to figure out what I wanted to do, and I was coming from a place where I was really, like. I had idolized my career for such a long time, and I was so excited to finally get out into the working world and, you know, start making my own money, start making a name for myself. And I think the company that I ended up in, I think it was probably mostly one department that really struggled with this. They had particularly low morale, and there was just a habit of a little bit of dishonesty, especially in terms of reporting some activities and numbers that the team was working on. And I think the general attitude toward that at the time was kind of like, it's just what you did. You know, everyone knows what the game is, and you just play the game until you were. You got promoted or moved on to Something else. So I think there was a sense of it's okay to fudge these numbers a little bit just because, you know, everyone knows. So I think at first, I also just played along because, you know, it's not lying if everyone knows that they're being lied to. Right. That's. That's what I thought. That's how I justified this. So I think. But there was a moment as I was kind of pursuing my faith a little bit more seriously, when God started to really convict me, because the Bible is pretty clear that, I mean, lying is a sin. And whether people knew that they were being lied to or not, it didn't really matter to God.

That's irrelevant. He did.

Yeah, exactly. It's what's in my heart and, like, why I was following along with these practices. And I think the other part that he convicted me of was that, like, because, you know, bonuses are tied to performance. So essentially, by me lying about my performance, I was actually stealing from the company, which, you know, in my mind, I was, like, lying. You know, it's a sin. It's bad. But, like, stealing, that's. That's on another level, bad. Which I know that's not, like, the way that it works, but that's how it was in my mind at the time. I think that's what really caught me. And, you know, I think at the root of, like, these temptations to kind of just follow along with these more dishonest practices was just a lot of pride. I didn't want to look like I was doing worse than some of my colleagues on the team. And that was also tied to my perception of my own identity, because I just came from a background of if I worked really hard and achieved all of these things, then I am someone who is a high performer. And that was really important to me. If I lost that, if I was the lowest performer on the team, one, who am I? But also, I could also be fired. What is going to happen to the future of my career? There was a lot of fear around that. And then there was the social aspect of, you know, I was friends with all of my coworkers, and I didn't want to seem like I was trying to be holier than thou. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, get that reputation of being, like, a stickler for the rules or something like that. So I think those are kind of all the different thoughts that were going on in my head at the time.

So fast forward, you do make the decision to stand firm in your faith, and I know that cost you. We're going to talk about how in a minute. But, but backtrack a little bit to that holier than thou fear. I think that's really real.

Right.

Like I felt that before, like oh like I have a conviction around this thing. I want to stand firm for it but my non Christian co workers do not feel a conviction. Right. And they're, you know, how did you deal with those feelings of I'm personally convicted but I don't want to be seen as holier than thou amongst the team.

Yeah. I think I just had to boil it down to what's most important. I think I was really afraid of losing those friends because I had just moved to a new city. They were my only, you know, community support at the time. So it was a little bit scary to think like what am I going to do if I lose these people and if I lose their respect and I lose their friendship. But you know, after a lot of kind of back and forth with God, he just kept boiling it down to well like do you not trust that I will provide for you? And so yes or no answer, like there's no like maybe.

That's right. That's right. It's pretty black and white. Right. Do you trust me or not? Obey today, I'll take care of tomorrow.

Yes.

So you told me in our pre interview that this decision did cost you. I'd love for you to talk about how. How did it cost you?

Yeah, I mean I think it cost me the things I just mentioned. Like it cost me like my reputation as someone who is a high performer. I think what hurt was that I would work really hard but have the lowest numbers on the team. So that was a really hard pill to swallow and probably the first time in my life where like the effort that I put in didn't match that outcome. So that was definitely a difficult lesson to learn. I think there was, you know, the cost of I knew I wasn't going to be promoted in the next year. That meant that like, you know, if I stayed here I was going to be prolonging my time in this, you know, in this kind of environment. Not really moving on when I saw all of my friends around me moving on to new roles, getting promoted, things like that.

What kept you going during that time? I mean what was the Lord using to help you persevere in faith when your circumstances were objectively just unjust? Right.

Yeah, I think, you know, he convicted me with his word that you know, sin was sin and I think he uplifted me in his word as Well, I remember just reading Matthew 4 for, like, it was probably the millionth time I've read it. But really understanding what Jesus was doing when he. You know, this is when Jesus goes out into the wilderness to fast for 40 days before he starts his ministry. And, you know, Satan is tempting him and he just is quoting scripture back at the devil. And I remember just understanding, like, what it means that the word of God has power to, like, defeat these lies. Because there were so many different lies that were coming into my head and, you know, tempting me to just go with what's going on. But I think what sustained me was proclaiming the truth over my life because, you know, when. When darkness, like, sees light, it can't stand it, it flees. And I think one of the really practical things that I did was, like I said, I had all of these thoughts going through my head, you know, a lot of lies that were like, lies and voices in my head of what I should do and how I should do things. So I created this Google Doc, listed out all of these things that I was hearing, and I grouped them into themes so, like, one of them could be identity. Because, you know, I felt like a failure in the world. One of them could be around, like, just fear of not having enough or, like, losing my job or something like that. And under each of those themes, I would write Bible verses that directly contradicted what that lie was saying. So, for example, if the voice in my head was telling me, you're a failure because, like, you're either not achieving or that you failed to obey God and, like, you don't deserve any of this. And under that, I would write, you know, read Genesis 1 and, like, read that you were created in the image of God, you know, or like Psalm 139, where it says you're fearfully and wonderfully made. And it feels simple, but I think just like, reading those out to myself and declaring, like, okay, if God's word is true, then this has to be true, and therefore none of these lies can be true. That was really powerful for me at the time. And anytime I was just feeling that, like, you know, I. When I felt weary and I felt tired of just resisting and felt tired of, like, I felt like I was kind of like holding back the waves at work every single day, I would just kind of pull up the stock and it would just be such an easy way to remind myself of what's true.

So good. And I'm a super practical person, right? So I. I love stuff like this. And I do find for me, that the false soundtracks running around my head, the lies that the Satan would have me believe, lose a lot of their power when they are on paper. Right. Lose a lot of power when I pull open that Google Doc and just see it in black and white and can refute it in black and white with God's word. There is something powerful to literally getting the thing out. I mean, I talk about this in redeeming your time. There's power in getting open loops, things we want to do out of our head and into an external system. But I think the same is true for lies. And it sounds like that's what you experience, Holly.

Yeah, for sure. And I think it was like going back to like, it's a black and white question of, like, are you going to believe like what your mind is saying or are you going to believe what you. What God says is true in the Bible? And you know, it's yes or no.

Yeah, but. But for me, it's. So if I don't get it out on paper. Right. Or I don't mean literal paper, I use basically no. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

It just continues to run around my head.

Yeah.

And I continue to repeat the lie over and over and over and over and over again. That's the beauty of getting it out of that system. Well, Holly, I mean, I hate that this experience cost you, although I know that the Lord will reward it in eternity and maybe even in the present. But this is part of the reason why I wanted to bring you onto the show because there's a lot of really bad theology in the faith and workspace and in just the Christian space in general. It's heavily influenced by the prosperity gospel, and I desperately want our listeners to watch out for it. The argument goes something like this. I hear this from people all the time. I've heard it from guests on this show. We've had to cut out what they say because I think it's heresy. It says something like this. Yep. I had to make this decision at work. I was tempted to do this thing, but I stood firm in my faith. And then God blessed that decision. Right. And they say something like. And that just goes to show that when you follow God's ways, he will honor your faithfulness. And listen, by honor, these people are typically talking about financial honor and the honor of success by the world's standards. And listen, God might honor you that way, but he might not. Right. Like, but whether or not he blesses you is beside the point. The point is obedience. We obey not because we think is a God is a genie who's going to bless us in return. We obey because he is Lord and worthy of our obedience. Amen, Holly.

Amen. Amen.

Talk more about that. You've had to wrestle with this. You felt the consequences of God not blessing you materially immediately because of this decision. How have you wrestled with that?

Yeah, I, I mean, I think because like this was probably a process that went for a year and a half and I think there was a lot of refinement in that thought process. Exactly. Of even if I never get that high paying job that I wanted, even if I can never because of my poor performance here in my mind, that felt like such a stigma to myself.

That's devastating.

Yeah. And it just felt like, oh, I'm ruining my future maybe, but I would have to just bring that to God of like God even. I'm obeying you. You will provide for me. I know you will provide for me. And just seeing him provide for me in that way of like, I've never, I never missed rent during that time. Like, I, you know, was able to, like, I continued to tithe during that time, which was difficult because to me I wanted to save. I wanted to build that like security for myself because I wasn't sure what the future looked like. Yeah. So I think even when I felt like I wasn't getting, you know, I wasn't. God wasn't like pouring out financial abundance on me or like material provision on me. I was able to experience. Yeah. That progression. I think it's Romans 5 that talks about, you know, suffering produces endurance, produces character, produces hope. And like that hope at the end of that chain, I was just really able to experience just like how valuable that is to not be putting my hope and my faith of the future in like something that is so easily taken away from me, but in something that is like eternal and that is lasting and that nobody can touch because who's going to touch the hope that God gives?

Yeah. Oh man. So good. So something happened to me recently that God's bringing mindage as you're talking. I forgive me if I ramble through this story, but I think it'll be an encouragement to you and to our listeners. My wife and I were hanging out with some friends on Sunday night and we were talking about this mutual friend of ours who is spending their money on things that I would love to spend my money on in this life, but have chosen not to because I. I feel called to spend this life rather than save it. I feel called to Leave it all on the line, because this life is a rounding error in the grants give eternity. And I want to steward my wealth for eternal things. The next morning, I was driving the airport. I don't cry a ton, Although, gosh, I don't know how long I could say that, because the older I get, the more I cry. I'm crying a lot these days at age 38, but I'm going to the airport, and I just broke down crying to the Lord. I was like, lord, I believe Hebrews 6:10 says, you are not unjust. You will not forget my work and the love I have shown you by helping his people and continue to help them. I believe in your promise of eternal rewards. But, Lord, I look foolish to my friends. I look like an idiot because I got friends tell me all the time, jordan, you. You should be spending more money on this, more money on that, more. I look like an idiot. Lord, please, please, I know you will keep your promise. Please remind me that you'll keep your promises. And so I. I pray this prayer. I'm crying on my way to the airport, I land in Southern California, and I forgot that the event organizers. I usually pay for my own hotel when I speak, and I stay at, like, cheap hotels, right? I don't spend money on. But I land and I forgot that the event organizers put me up in the nicest hotel I've ever stayed in in my life. It was incredible. It was the Ritz Carlton on Laguna Beach. And I walked in, and it just was this, like, little moment of God, I think, saying, hey, like, I see your faithfulness, I will reward that faithfulness. It won't always be in this life, like this hotel room, but it was just a tiny reminder that God sees every single act of faithfulness in this life. And the blessing in this life is communion with him, right? Is abiding with him and feeling his presence as we obey his commands. But there's also coming eternal rewards. That is that relationship, but also eternal blessing and rewards. And I don't know, for me, that was a phenomenal encouragement to just keep me going and persevering in the faith. And it sounds like you experience a lot of that encouragement in your own communion with the Lord during this time. Holly?

Yeah, definitely. I think, yeah, there's just so much, I think when we, like, you know, of course I have desires. I have things that I want in this world. But, yeah, it definitely. It just doesn't compare to what the gifts that God gives. And just that it just fills you up so much. More fills you up for so much longer.

Yeah, it's sustainable fuel.

Yes, exactly, exactly.

You mentioned before that professional success was a big idol for you during this early stage of your career. How did God use this particular situation, Right. Where you're tempted with these unethical business practices? How did he use that situation to reframe your definition of success?

Yeah, I mean he definitely destroyed what I thought was success.

He obliterated it.

Exactly. I mean to me success was, it was abundance, it was stability, it was independence. That looked like big title, big company name earning whatever I thought was enough money. And all of these started to shake, all of these started to look impossible. And I did experience some of that success or what I defined as success at the time, you know, in that, yeah, I did. It was relatively stable. I did have independence because I had an income. But it, I was still miserable and like to, in my mind that didn't make sense because I thought this, these were the things that would bring me happiness. Yeah. Over time. And this was, you know, even beyond that particular situation. But I think it started here of like my definition of success started to turn into was I able to do what God told me to do today? And I think in this time it was, was I able to live honestly to God's word in today and you know, in the future? It just, it became as I learned to listen to his spirit and understand like what he calls us to do in the day to day and work hard in the day to day, my definition of success started to become that. And I don't want to make it seem like it was like it's super smooth because like I have long term desires, I have hopes and visions for what I think I want to do in the future. But yeah, which is good. And I think it's a. God uses those visions for good. But also I've learned to be really open handed with what that future looks like because I think in the, in these processes I've learned that like when we're obedient to God in the small things and the little day to day things, he's working like even bigger things beyond that that we can't even imagine. And it's brought me to places that I couldn't have even imagined. Taking roles that like I never thought was possible. Like, I never thought I had the skills to lead a team or like that I ever would. And yet here I am. And like, I know that that is all by God's like. And he's working in me, through me and around me. And it's, you know, not anything that I did, but just because I was. I've been trying to follow him in the day to day.

I love that you say it's not because of anything you did. Right. Like, God has blessed your career after that role, but. And maybe. Maybe it was tied to your faithfulness in that particular decision, but maybe not. But again, that's not the point.

Exactly, exactly.

The point is just being obedient and faithful. All right, Holly, I want you to talk to. I. I'm sure there's a listener listening right now who is tempted to fudge the numbers at work, who is tempted to take advantage of their company's work from home policy and, you know, take care of a lot of personal things during the day when they should be working, whatever it is. What would you say to that listener right now who's facing a similar dilemma to the one you faced early on in your career?

1. I mean, trusting in the promises of God, I guess knowing the promises of God and trusting in.

There you go. That's a good start.

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, in the Lord's Prayer there, you know, we ask for daily bread to sustain us. And, like, I think that's very necessary. Like, every morning, just ask for the Holy Spirit to fill you up and to sustain you through this day, because that's. We just need God every single day and every single moment. I didn't have this at the time, but, like, surrounding yourself with good community, who can pray with you, who can keep you accountable as well, and call. And who would be willing to call you out when they see you kind of going in the wrong direction. And I would also say that, like, remember that, like, God is a God who sees in secret, because I think one hard part of it is if you feel very alone, like, it feels like you're struggling so much, but, like, no one's acknowledging what you are doing. Like, no one can see that internal struggle of, like, I'm trying to do the right thing for the Lord and. But God sees you. God sees you in secret and he rewards you again in internal rewards.

That's good. That's really, really good. Holly, we probably could end this episode right here. That discussion about that just one situation. Work was so rich and helpful to our listeners. But I do want to pivot to another way that the gospel is clearly influencing your work. You mentioned in your pre interview this example that you were once on this team that was going through a really difficult time, and this coworker noticed that you had a unique Joy and hope in that trying time. And they called it out, and it gave you a chance to explicitly share the gospel. As you reflect back on that situation. I'm curious what. What were the simple things you did or did not do that you think God used to make you stand out as light in that dark time? Maybe said another way, like, what are the actions that that colleague would have pointed to? Say, oh, here's exhibit A, B and C of what I mean when I say that Holly is working with joy and hope in a trying time.

Yeah, I think the root of a lot of it probably came just from that piece beyond understanding that Christ gives us so that, like, when things didn't go the way that I hoped that they would go, it's okay. It's not. Not, you know, my life isn't ruined. God is greater than these situations. And just to give context around, like, what was going on, it was just a time of, you know, our team was experiencing a lot of pressure from the company to produce results and reach certain goals. And at the same time, we were experiencing a lot of change. Like, there were a lot of changes in the organization. We had turnover on the team. So it was just very stressful at the time. And I think what that piece of Christ helped me to do was just to respond and less anxiety. Because I think, you know, anytime we had, you know, a review of, like, what was going on, it would just be so stressful to sit in a room and people tell you, like, this isn't working, that isn't working. Like, what are you going to do to fix it? Yeah, I think just the fact that I knew that, you know, whatever happens, like, everything is in God's hands. Not that, like, everything is going to turn out perfectly or okay, but, you know, it's in God's hands. And I think just not responding in panic or anxiety was something that people took note of. Another part of it is just when we have peace in ourselves because of Christ. Like, I think it gives us the bandwidth to listen to people. And I think that was just, like, the simple, like, act of being able to sit down and just hear people out. Because I think when I'm. When I'm anxious, when I'm panicking, like, I can't hear other people's troubles, like, I'm just so focused on myself. But, yeah, when Christ puts that peace in us, we can love people just by, you know, hearing their frustrations, like, being compassionate to them, finding ways that we can, you know, help them out. Even if it's like, A simple task, taking, like, one thing off their plate could be what helps them to feel a little bit lighter that day. So I think those were kind of the things that my co workers were noticing at that time.

That's really good. I don't think I've ever heard anybody articulate it exactly that way. That as we dwell on the peace we have in Christ, we are more available to listen to the anxieties of others, to help bear those burdens in a way that begs the question, why? To which Jesus is the only answer. Amen.

Exactly. Amen. Yeah.

Yeah, that's good. That's good, Holly. I love that. Hey. All right, Holly. As you know, we wrap up every episode of the show with the same four questions. Number one, what job would you love for God to give you on the new Earth?

Yeah, I love this question. I love, like, cooking and gathering people. I also am. I love organizing things, so I want to be an event planner for the Lord's banquets in heaven.

Come on. I love that so much. I'm hoping my friend Artie Sequera is, like, cooking is a part of the Lord chef team in the kitchen for the Lord's baby. I got, like, all these different rules for friends. I'm like, but God's got a better role in mind for them. I love it. That's a good answer. Hey, if we opened up your Amazon order history, what book could we see you purchasing over and over again to give away to friends?

Okay. I had three that I had to write down. One is one of your books actually called To Create. Oh, really? Like, yeah, that was very clarifying to me, and I love the practicality of it. So I do recommend that to a lot of my friends who are struggling with, like, career. The other one I just recently reread, Cost of Discipleship by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Amazing book. Very convicting. Don't read it if you don't want to be convicted.

Yeah, seriously. It's not a light read. Not a light read.

Nope. No, but amazing. And then one that I'm reading right now that I've been recommending to people is Experiencing God by Claude King and Henry Richard Black. Henry and Richard Blackaby. Yeah.

Oldie, but a goodie. Yeah. I was just hanging out backstage an event with Richard Blackaby and had a chance to thank him again for that extraordinary book. Excellent, excellent book. All right, Holly, who would you want to hear on this podcast? Talk about how the gospel shaping the work they do in the world?

Honestly, I just have loved, like, hearing, like, the stories of, you know, just the average people who are just in their daily walk. So would love. Yeah, I would love to continue to hear more of those stories.

The people who don't have the platform, who don't have a book. Those are my favorite episodes. Me, too. All right, Holly, you're talking to this global audience of mere Christians who are doing a lot of different things vocationally. I'm sure there's a bunch of people have jobs that look very similar to yours, but we've got foresters listening and baristas and doctors and surgeons. Whatever. What's one thing you want to reiterate from our conversation that we've already had or maybe something new you want to say to those listeners before we sign off?

Yeah, I think I wanted to leave off with Proverbs 3, 5, 6. It says, Trust in the Lord with all of your heart and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways, acknowledge him and he will make straight your paths. Yeah, that's how we need to live our day to day. And whatever you're facing, just, you know, give it to the Lord. I think sometimes we say that as like a, you know, a placating remark of like, pray about it. Give it to the Lord. It's powerful. And also that, like, your faithfulness is not in vain. And whatever you're going through, God sees it. And you might not be able to see what he is doing, but he is working all things together for good for those who love and are called to Him.

Amen. Amen. So well said. Holly, I want to commend you for the exceptional and faithful work you do for the glory of God and the good of others, for reminding us to stand firm in our faith, not to get something from God, but in response to what he has already given us through his Son, Jesus Christ, I. E. Eternal life with Him.

Right. Yeah.

So, man, thank you so much for that reminder, guys. If you want to connect with Holly, you can find her on Linked In. Holly Kim, thank you for hanging out with us today.

Thank you so much for having me, Jordan.

Some of my favorite episodes of this show are episodes like this one. We just go really, really deep into a singular story that clearly reveals how practically the gospel shaping your work. If you've got one of those stories, I want you to let us know. Go to jordanrayner.com MC jordanrayner.com MC for mere Christians, you're going to see a survey there that you can take and tell me your story. And if I think it'd be an encouragement to our listeners. We'll have you on the show. That's what Holly did. She filled out that form. She's here and now you're encouraged by her her you be an encouragement to our listeners as well. Let us know your story@jordanrayner.com MC thank you guys for listening. I'll see you next week. Hey friends, this is your last chance to claim all the amazing pre order bonuses for five mere Christians before they go away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9. I've never offered this many pre order bonuses on a book before, so when you fill out the form@5merechristians.com Number one, you're going to be entered to win an incredible trip for you and a friend to tour CS Lewis's favorite spots in Oxford, explore Olay Kirk Christiansen's former stomping grounds at Lego headquarters in Denmark, and much more. Number two, you'll be invited to join my first ever interactive reading, culminating in a zoom call with me and my co author on this book, Kaylee Cox. Number three, you're going to be getting a money back guarantee to try the book risk free. And number four, you'll also get access to a free course I'm not selling anywhere called how to write a book 10x faster and better with an affordable co author. You can claim all these bonuses in just two simple steps. Step 1 Pre order 5 mere Christians in any format you want. It can be hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever and you can order it from wherever. It doesn't matter to me. Step 2 Go to 5meerchristians.com and fill out the form of that page and that's it. I'll send you all those bonuses. You'll be entered into the sweepstakes with one simple form submission. But hey, don't wait all of these off, all of these offers, all these bonuses. They're going away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9th. So visit 5merechristians.com right now to claim your bonuses.