Jake Reed (Assistant Manager at Trader Joe's)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes, but first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back.

Guarantee on this book.

I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why?

Two reasons.

One, this is a different book for me, right. I know this is a very different biography is what is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right?

So that's the first reason this is.

A risk and I'm gonna de risk.

This book for you.

Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended.

End quote. But here's the thing.

In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on 5 mereChristians. Calm and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5meerchristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode.

Hey everybody. Welcome to the Mere Christians podcast. Hi, I'm Jordan Raynor.

How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians?

Those of us who aren't pastors or.

Religious professionals, but who work as urban.

Planners and park rangers and interior designers.

That'S the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to my.

New friend, Jake Reed.

He's an assistant manager at a Trader.

Joe's store in Idaho.

He's got no book, he's got no platform. Like many of you, he's just a regular guy working a regular job. He is a mere Christian in the.

Truest sense of the term, which is why I was so excited to have him on the show.

Jake and I talked about why he voluntarily took a demotion as a spiritual discipline. We talked about the difference between hearing and listening to God's voice and the case for encouraging your team's vocational dreams, even if it leads them to leave your business.

You guys are going to love this episode with Jake Reed. Jake Reed, longtime listener, first time caller. Welcome to the podcast.

Thanks for having me. It's great to be here.

So I was shocked when I was looking back through old episodes.

I don't think we've ever had anybody.

Who works in retail on the podcast. So I'm just like, super grateful that you're willing to chat. By the way, as a longtime listener, what are some of your favorite episodes, maybe from the last year of the show?

I've listened to all but 13 of them now. I counted up. Yeah. So I would probably say Harris III was one of my favorites.

That one keeps coming up as a favorite.

It was a good one. I loved when you talked to your dad. That was just one of the best episodes.

Nice.

And Tim Keller, of course, the most recent one, talking about forgiveness and just his journey with what he's dealing with right now. Yeah, those are a few of my favorites.

Yeah, those are good ones. Those are good answers. Hey, I don't want to assume that everyone knows Trader Joe's, especially our international listeners, of which we have many. Can you give us a real quick 30 second overview of the brand? What is Trader Joe's?

Trader Joe's, it's a specialty food store. So you're not going to go there and find just a wide variety of everything, just the best of everything from around, around the world. And we just have fun. And when you walk in, the experience that you have there is just of happy people and good food. And so that's really what we say, is that the store is our brand. And you can definitely tell when you walk through the doors.

And it's like people are cultish about Trader Joe's. For those of you who don't have a Trader Joe's in your City.

Right.

People lose their minds.

Yeah. Before I had ever worked there, I hadn't really shopped there that much because they were opening in Colorado. My first experience was just people lining up outside the door, you know, hundreds of people, and it was crazy. So, yeah, people definitely love it.

Yeah. Anytime we drive past, because I think most of the items, all the items, maybe you can't get anywhere else.

Is that right?

Are they exclusive to the store?

That's true. Most everything that is carried in Trader Joe's is Trader Joe's brand.

So I'm outing my wife here. But anytime we drive past Trader Joe's, she has to stop to get these dark chocolate peanut butter cups, which are, like, off the charts. Like, Justin's doesn't know what's up. Like, it's Trader Joe's dark chocolate. What's your favorite Trader Joe's exclusive item? Jake.

So for me, it's. I tend to be a little more healthy, but we have these sweet plantain chips. Oh, yeah, I've had these. Okay, good. There's no sugar added. They're just sweet by hanging out in the sun, and I love them.

Hey. So I've never worked in retail. I've had a lot of work experience, a lot of different work experience, but never retail. I'm really curious what a typical day looks like for you as you manage this Trader Joe's store. What does that look like?

So I'm an assistant manager there, so days can be a little bit different just depending on what shift I'm working, if I'm in charge of running the floor or being in front where what we call the grand finale, where the customers are checking out. So things can look a little bit different there. I would say that walking into retail, and anyone who's worked retail knows that it's a very repetitive job. So every day you walk in the truck, comes in the groceries, go on the shelves, and then people start buying them. And so it's that cycle that kind of carries us through the day. However, everything's different every day as well because the mix of people that are working is different every day. And also, anyone can walk in the door. Right. So there's all kinds of different customers. People from every walk of life walk in. And so the days are very typical in that you're walking in, working a certain shift, and doing, you know, fairly repetitive work. But also it's always different because we're just dealing with, you know, different situations and different people from moment to moment.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's super interesting. You sent me an email a while back saying that you feel, quote, fortunate that God has placed, unquote, you in your current role. What do you think God's placed you in this role to do? Why are you at Trader Joe's? Why does God have you here? Why do you think?

He's really shown me so much mercy throughout my life. And I feel like wherever I go, whether it be at Trader Joe's or anywhere, that I'm there to just extend that mercy to people. And one great thing about where I'm at is that I come into contact with hundreds of people every day. And so I feel like he has his reasons for why. It's exactly that store and exactly that company. But definitely my job is just to show up and show that same mercy that I've been given.

What does that mercy? What does that look like, practically? Give us an example, maybe a couple of examples of how to extend mercy via retail. I love that you're pointing this out.

Well, I think it's really easy to look at customers, for one, and really stereotype people into, you know, just being cranky people that. Because a lot of times people do walk in and they're in a hurry and, you know, not everybody loves to go to the grocery store, even if it is Trader Joe's. And so it's really easy to pigeonhole them and just think that they're another, you know, kind of nuisance or when they say the same stereotypical things that every customer says that. And, you know, I'm so tired of hearing that or whatever it is. It's really just looking at, hey, that's a person and that's a human being and you have no idea what's going on in their lives. And so just being able to connect with them, quick conversations and really showing them some grace. And then as far as showing mercy with coworkers, everybody has good days and bad days and. And we're all going to make mistakes. And the first person that I want to extend some mercy to is myself. Because I think that it's really easy to be hard on yourself and you make mistakes and just knowing that, you know, God shows mercy to me and I don't have to be defined when I do something wrong, I. To turn around and. And show that to the people that I work with and that work for me.

Yeah. Amen. I can resonate with that being really hard on myself. But I think, you know, I always come back to me and if. If I really believe that Christ died for me when I was his enemy. Pre salvation Surely I can believe that as a child of God, when I mess up, when I make a mistake at work, when I sin, when I'm not as productive as I want to be. For kingdom things, man, there's mercy all the more than as a child, as an adopted son of God. Amen. That flows out to your customers, that flows out to the team. That's how it should work. And that's probably otherworldly. I would imagine in your world, most managers, maybe many managers, don't operate in that way. Have you found that by extending grace and mercy to your team? I don't know, it's just made you winsome to them as you give them grace?

Yeah, absolutely. I think that when you do show that grace, people for one, want to know where that comes from. So that's really opened up a lot of avenues to be able to, you know, really show that, that mercy is coming from Christ himself. And when people are in a culture like that, when they feel like they can be themselves, they will turn around and show mercy to each other even all the more. And yeah, it just changes the culture that you're in.

Yeah. You said something else in your email that piqued my interest. You said, quote, the gospel shapes my.

Status at work far beyond the job.

Titles I used to chase. End quote. What's the story there? What do you mean by that?

Yeah, so when I was, you know, I started with a different grocery store when I was 16 and I always had it in my mind to be the store manager and, you know, and beyond in the company. And so I worked towards that. And I really, it was almost like a dopamine hit where, you know, I was getting promoted really fast. And by the time I had made it to being a store manager there, I was one of the youngest store managers at the time that they had ever had. But even then I wanted a bigger store, more sales volume. And so I did, I chased those things and I was still a Christian. But I think that what I failed to connect was just the way that God saw my work. And so for me, you know, maybe I thought I was bringing glory to him, but it was really just to bring glory to myself, to continue to chase the bigger store, the bigger sales volume, more employees and that sort of thing. And so, you know, I loved being in charge of the store for reasons that, you know, I still loved all of the employees, crew members that I worked with. But at the same time, there was a very self serving, self promoting part of that job where, you know, once I became a Store manager. That wasn't enough. You know, I wanted to move into the office, and I think we can all kind of relate to just wanting the next big thing.

Right.

And it never being enough. And I felt when Trader Joe's came to Colorado, I felt this tug. And, you know, I know that God was definitely working on my heart to apply there. And so I did. It wasn't something that I would normally do. I'm pretty loyal. I was at that other grocer for 19 years, and I applied and became an assistant manager. So here I wasn't running the store.

You're taking a demotion.

Exactly. And a pay cut and all of those things. And it wound up being the greatest thing that I did professionally, because what it gave me the opportunity to do was use a lot of the skills that I had learned in running the store, but do it in a way that I was now supporting. And we call our store managers captains at Trader Joe's, but my job then was to support their vision for the store and to really lay down my ambition to continue to get promoted in these sorts of things and really look at what's the best way that I can steward what I have right now with the people that are around me. In learning a new culture, also getting into a new company, like, I was able to learn from the people around me, and that gave me a chance to really humble myself and learn from the people around me and not have to be the one with all the answers.

Yeah, it's almost. If I could put words in your mouth. It's like this voluntary demotion was almost a spiritual practice. It's like, hey, this idol's growing out of control. I need to put it in check. And this is one of the ways I put it in check. Am I reading that right?

Absolutely. And I didn't see it at the time, but, of course, God knows what he's doing, and he loves me enough that he did that for me. He opened the doors for me to be able to really lay that down. And when I was running a store before, I did it obsessively. I took a lot of pride in the amount of hours that I could work and just being there all the time and that sort of thing. And I saw that as being, you know, a good, hard worker. But, you know, obviously, God wants us to have a pattern of rest and restoration as well. And he loves me enough that he gave me the opportunity to do that when I couldn't see it.

Man. What was the impetus like? What did God use to kind of reveal these idols in your heart? Because I have a very similar story.

Right.

God blatantly revealed these idols in my heart about work.

What was it for you?

For me, I never would have saw it or been able to hear him if I hadn't established a good practice of being quiet before him. It was always something that, you know, we hear people talk about, you know, spend time with God. And I didn't have a really firm grasp of what it was, but the more that I did it, I wanted to do it more. And I got to the point where every single morning, and it's been probably a good 13, 14 years now, but being able to just get quiet, be in the scriptures and just listen to his voice and just the whispers of the Holy Spirit telling me, hey, you should apply here, and those sorts of things. Like, I never would have heard it had I not been quiet before him. And also, you know, it's also some correction as well, like with your story where you had these idols. I definitely made an idol out of work and God, in a loving way, when we're. When we're receptive to his voice and the whispers of the Holy Spirit will. He'll pull us out of those things.

Yeah. Blessed be the name of the Lord for that. Right. I mean, it can hurt. It reminds me of that scene in, I think it's Voyage of the Dawn Treader where. Where Aslan's going to rip the dragon skin off of the kid, and he's like, I'm going to have to go deeper than you think.

Right.

But it's going to be worth it.

Right.

It's going to be painful, but it's going to be worth it. I'm butchering. I'm butchering the scene and butchering the quote. But that's what that idol extraction.

Right.

Looks like and can feel like.

Yeah. Yeah.

Sorry. Go ahead, Jake.

I just think that, you know, going along with hearing God's voice and him working in our lives, in my experience, he's brought a lot of great things into my life through that quiet time where he said, I'm going to do this, or there's a promise. And a lot of the dreams that I've had are born out of that quiet time in that relationship with him. But there have been times where I've taken those and turned them into idols as well. And, you know, it's just one of those things that he's shown me. Like, there's a lot of good things that he's given us, but when we put it ahead of Him. And when we make those things our God and chase after those things, even though they're good things, you know, he'll definitely cause us to refocus on him and just come sit with him.

You've read a lot of Keller, haven't you?

Not a ton.

Or you've read a lot of Jordan Rayner? I don't know which one.

Probably the Jordan Raynor. Yeah, that's a great thing, is I might not have to read a lot of Keller because I. That's right. I've read a lot of Georgia myself.

I want to draw out some nuance here that I think is really important. The way you're talking about your personal time with the Lord, your quote, unquote quiet times leads me to believe that you're not only reading scripture, but you're actually sitting quietly in silence trying to hear the Holy Spirit.

Am I right?

Absolutely. There's definitely a lot of great things that we can get out of scripture and good teaching and all of those things, but also realizing that the Holy Spirit, God is a living person. And even with worship music, I know that in the early times of doing this, like I loved listening to worship music, but there's times when that's even noise and we have to be able to turn that off a little bit and be able to just hear him when he's speaking.

Yes. There's a practice in redeeming your time where I talk about putting the quiet back in quiet time. Right. And I want to be crystal clear, like we are to immerse ourselves in God's Word daily. Like if we don't know what God's Word says, we can't redeem our time. Well, towards eternal purposes. But. But reading the Word is still a form of intaking information. Right.

So that's how we hear God's voice. But if we want to listen to.

God's voice and connect the Word to what's going on in our lives and our work, we gotta steal our minds. We have to liter be quiet. Right. I think of Psalm 46, 10. Be still and know that God is God. Right. The stillness makes way for the knowing and I think for hearing the Spirit speak and connect the Word to what's going on in our daily lives.

Does that resonate with you, Jake? Does that make sense?

Absolutely. There's a lot of times when, you know, in the quiet scriptures that I've read will come up as well. And so if you're not in the Word and, and knowing it and letting it sink into your heart, you know, A lot of those truths you'll miss in the quiet.

Yeah. Hey, you interact with dozens of employees, maybe hundreds of customers in a given week.

I'm curious how you think those people's.

Interactions with you are different because you're a Christian. You've already talked about showing greater mercy, greater grace. How else are those interactions distinct because you're a Christ follower?

I think at least when I interact with another Christian, I think it's evident that they been with God. And so, you know, I would hope that when people are around me, they find that, you know, I've been with God and. And can see the joy. The joy coming across in the way that I interact with them. I think I have a lot of fun because I am content, and I'm very. I think I'm very comfortable with who I am. And that's something that's come out of having a relationship with God is. I know who I don't need to be as well. And in the early times of really trying to make a name for myself, I felt like I had to be everyone or be somebody that. That's not me just to kind of fill the role. But God has shown me what role I need to fill, and that's to be that encourager and to show his joy and his mercy wherever I go. And so I would hope that the people that I come into contact with would find that another thing is taking a genuine interest in other people. And so I think it's really easy to take a genuine interest in ourselves. But the more that we get to know God and His heart for other people and really see them through his eyes, we're going to take a genuine interest in them. And there's nothing I love more than listening to someone else's hopes and dreams. And that's something that I've had the opportunity to do a lot of recently with the people that I work with is if I ask them, what's your dream? Everybody seems to have this little dream. I know that you're a big in the Heights fan, and so I am. So everybody has that right. That's. It's just. It's theirs. And I think that is a great window into who that person is and knowing that about them and encouraging them in. You know, I know some people that know a lady who wants to work with horses and people with disabilities. And we have artists at our store. Right. So everything you see around the store is done by hand, by artists. And one of the ladies at my store wants to write children's books and.

Send them my way.

I did. I told her all about the creator in you, and she read that, and it was awesome. And so there's another person at our store. He is a young man that wanted to start a marketing company, and he's taken steps towards starting it. And I was able to give him a copy of Called To Create. And I also gave another lady a copy of Redeeming youg Time, because I just happened to walk in the break room and see that she was reading the Ruthless Elimination of Hurry. So we were able to do a little book exchange there. But I think that that's what's different, though, is. Is when I'm interacting with the people around me. None of that would ever happen if I didn't have that eternal perspective that what I'm doing is not the sum of my efforts. It's my work is reverberating throughout eternity. And the hopes and the dreams that I have and that the people around me have will all come to pass. But them knowing that I care about those things makes a huge difference, and I think is what's different, man.

I want to dive deeper here. This is so good, Jake, because this is pretty countercultural. You're encouraging the dreams of those who work for you, even when those dreams are not to stay at Trader Joe's. Right. It's replacing your dreams of, I want to be more successful, thus I want to hire and retain the best people and keep them here forever with their dreams. You're prioritizing their swing details. By the way, you earned major points in my book for quoting in the Heights. Oh, my gosh, forever. Yeah.

No, like that.

That's radical, right? Don't you fear that this is going to make you look bad, right? When all these great people leave and go follow their dreams?

Not at all. Now, the first time that I just kind of happened upon that just, you know, because I just love talking to people about that. It was just in a performance review, actually. Just, you know, what do you want to do? And just to see the light come on in a crew member when they're talking about their hopes and dreams. I could see the more and more that we've had these conversations that they're so much more engaged with the work that they're actually doing right now, knowing how it fits into the bigger picture of where they want to be. And that's one thing that, you know, if I'm going to look bad, you know, I definitely want to be able to turn it back to the fact that what they're doing at Trader Joe's is going to help them in whatever they wind up, whatever they wind up doing. And, you know, seeing that the work that they have in their hands is valuable, you know, I think it adds value to the company that I'm at. I think if more companies and more people in supervisory positions took the time to know this about the people that work for them, you know, it does. It radically changes things.

If you could underline and highlight podcast quotes, I would encourage everyone to go back and highlight what Jake Reid just said. I think this is like really smart. Two things. Number one, it's a terrific means of loving your neighbor as yourself in a really practical way. Managers, right, by unearthing your team's dreams and encouraging those dreams, even if they're outside the four walls of your business.

But number two, it's good for business and it's good for your team and the productivity of your team.

Jake, you probably know, I know a lot of our listeners know I serve as executive chairman of this venture backed tech startup called Threshold 360 that I ran as CEO for a number of years. And there's a member of our team there, he's now our COO who's terrific at this. He was actually on the podcast way, way, way, way, way back when, one of the first episodes ever. His name is Will Barrett. Will's exceptional at this. We have hundreds of photographers in the field going out and capturing content at Threshold, right? And these are all like really young people, right? They're in their early 20s. They all have dreams outside of this job. But Will's really good, motivated by his faith, like really good at understanding those dreams, encouraging those dreams.

And when he, his team is the.

Most engaged team at Threshold. They love the business, they serve the business incredibly well. Because he's loved them really well and charted a course of, hey, here's how this job is going to help you get to that other thing. But even if he didn't do that, even if it didn't make them more engaged, it's still the Christ like thing to do, right, Jake?

Absolutely. Absolutely.

I love this. You mentioned to me before that you see a connection between your faith and your commitment to excellence at work. This is one of my favorite soapboxes. I'm gonna invite you to hop up on the soapbox with me, talk to us a little bit about how your faith informs your commitment to mastering your craft.

Well, as far as my faith, I, you know, I. God's with me wherever I go, right? So if I see trash on the floor. And you know, I walk past it, you know, I know that God's going to deal with me in that I want to do little things well. And so before when I was chasing after, you know, different things and just trying to promote myself, it wasn't that I wanted to do a lot of the little things well, it's that I just wanted the next big thing, you know. And so my faith gives me the perspective that all of the little things matter and that God's going to trust me with more if I'm doing the little things well and you know, caring for the people around me.

Well, man, you're reminding me of David. This is David's story, right? When Saul tells David, hey, you're crazy for wanting to fight this Philistine Goliath, David doesn't say look at my muscles or look at my killer sling strategy, right?

He says, hey, look to my past.

History of faithfulness in little things. I killed the bear, I did all these things, I looked after these sheep well. I did the small things well and thus I can be trusted with this greater responsibility. Right? Yeah, that's exactly what you're saying.

Yes.

You also said in your email, in this pre interview email I sent you, that God quote, gives me every opportunity to show his love to people who are different than me, end quote. You mentioned before, you know, working in dark places, anywhere where their sin is a dark place. Right?

Yeah. I'm interested within the context of the.

Non Christian co workers you have a chance to build real long term relationships with.

I'm curious, how do you show Christ's.

Love to them, to the people who are different you and yet not condone lifestyles that are contrary to God's word. Have you ever had to wrestle with that tension?

Yeah, absolutely. I think that it's important to value that person for who they are. I mentioned a little bit earlier about being shown mercy and then turning around and showing that mercy to others. I think that's first and foremost in my mind at least is that God's going to be merciful to me if I'm merciful to others. And he's heaped mercy on me. And so it really is my pleasure to turn around and show that mercy to other people. And so, you know, early on in my Christian life, when I was probably a teenager, I think it was a different story where I would condemn people and you know, even to their face. And I know that nobody is walking with Christ now because I did that. And if I can show Christ's love to somebody who's different than me. I know that I'm just planting seeds, you know, in. In their heart that could grow someday. And so that's the approach that I think it's important to take, is that, you know, I want to treat that person exactly like Jesus would.

Yeah. But it's all rooted in that understanding of the mercy that we've been shown. One thing I've been asking myself lately is I was challenged by my friend Sean Castill, who is on this podcast recently, was hanging out with Sean in Texas. And he's like, he was talking about just remembering what God has saved us from is the key to unlocking mercy towards others at work, in our homes, whatever. And I thought that was, like, really astute. How do you remind yourself of what God saved you from, Jake? Like, do you have a practice that you go to? Do you have a prayer that you regularly pray? Like, how are you reminded of this?

I think it's important to examine your own life. And in my time, I have really come up with the practice of journaling, but in a different way. I know that God puts me in different seasons of life. And what I see as a season is a beginning, an end, and a lesson. And so I do all of my journaling on my iPhone, so it has to be in do not disturb. So a million texts don't pop up while I'm doing it. But I go back and I write my story. That's the practice that I do. And I think it's important to go back and look at my own journals. So since I have them in my iPhone, what I'll do is while I'm in the car on my commute, I just use the screen reader and Siri reads my journals back to me and, oh, that's good. It's great to hear her, you know, tell me what I've been thinking. And sometimes I'm like, wow, I wrote that. That's pretty good. And to hear Siri spoke scripture is an awesome thing as well.

Yeah, that's amazing. I love that. Jake, you know what? Three questions we end every conversation with? Number one, which books do you find yourself recommending or gifting most frequently to others?

There's one called Images and Idols. It's by, okay, Ryan Lister and Thomas J. Terry, you know, a couple of guys out of Portland. It very much preaches the same message that a lot of mere Christians is about. It's just that creativity is God's and creativity for his glory. Another one is Six Seasons of Calling by Brian Sanders. I read so good yeah, it's great. And I've gifted that to quite a few people in my life, and it's something that I'll go back and revisit as I enter different stages in my life. Draw the Circle by Mark Batterson. Great book on prayer. I love that one. And then the Stranger in the Lifeboat by Mitch Allbaum. So I took some time and read some fiction, and that is a great fictional story.

Huh? I don't read fiction, so I haven't read it. Of course, I read almost no fiction, but no, that's interesting. It's good. Hey, who would you most like to hear on this podcast?

I would love to hear you have a conversation with Kevin Ogar. He's an unashamed Christian that does redemptive work as an entrepreneur, founder of a nonprofit, a coach, and an athlete. He's definitely a hero to me, even though I've never met him. He was the co founder of the Reveille Project, which helps restore veterans lives post active duty. He's the founder of wheelwod, which is a platform that provides coaching and competition opportunities for adaptive athletes. He's also the owner of CrossFit Watchtower in Denver, Colorado. And just this last year, he won Fittest on earth in the CrossFit games in the seated no Hip function division. He became a paraplegic in 2014 in a competition in a weightlifting accident.

Geez.

Oh, my goodness. And he's done all of that since the accident, so that's crazy. Yeah.

All right, I gotta look this guy up. That's a great suggestion. Hey, Jake, you're talking to an audience of mere Christians like you. What do you want to leave them with before we sign off?

They spend time with God. Study your own journey to know who you are so he can send you out to play the role that you're meant to play. And be prepared to give an answer for your hope and do it with gentleness and respect. Man.

That's good. Straight from first, Barry. Hey, how do you do that? How have you prepared to give a reason for your hope? What does that mean to you?

For me, there's nothing more powerful as a reason for my hope than my testimony. I could go to people and quote scriptures all day long, but I think there's absolutely no denying when somebody talks about what Jesus has done for them, that's, you know, in going back to just studying my own life and what God's done for me, I'm able to know who I am and be able to, at any moment, speak to somebody about that.

Yeah. I've been thinking a lot lately about this passage in 1st Peter 3:15, where I'm going to find it. 1st Peter 3:15. Always be prepared to give an answer.

To everyone who asks you to give.

The reason for the hope that you. Yeah, I think preparation here is on two levels. You've hit on the first one. It's like, give a personal reason for your faith.

Right.

Not just all the apologetic answers, although that's part of it. But personally, why are you following Jesus? What is the reason for your faith and your hope and your apprenticeship to Christ?

And then I think the second aspect.

Of this is the universal reasons for our faith.

Right.

The intellectual and historical case for our hope. But I agree with you, Jake. I think it's that personal reason that is the most compelling to people that you have a relationship with. Right? Because they could see the joy, they could see the peace, they could see the grace and the mercy oozing out of you. Right?

Right.

All right, bonus round. Because you brought it up, I can't let you go without asking. This favorite in the Height song.

Ooh, the opening number. Oh, man, it's pretty good.

I haven't met a whole lot of in the Heights fans, so if you're listening, you guys know almost all my readers and listeners know I'm a huge Hamilton fan. In the Heights is the first musical Lin Manuel Miranda wrote way before. It's phenomenal. You can watch the movie adaptation on HBO Max right now. That opening number is Fire.

It's incredible.

Yeah, it's so, so good. In seven minutes, it introduces every character in the show in this genius way of everybody hopping into Usnavi's bodega and, like, grabbing a cup of coffee. It's brilliant. It's brilliant. It's like musical theater gold. Jake, man, I want to commend you, dude, for the exceptional work you do every day. For the glory of God and the good of others, for reminding us of how we can show the love of Christ to those that we work with, show his mercy, show his grace. You know, as you were talking, one of my favorite verses came to mind. Psalm 37:23. The Lord directs the steps of the godly. He delights in in every detail of their lives. Dude, every time you stock a shelf, every time you give feedback to a team member or answer a question from an angry customer in a way that honors the Lord, you are bringing God eternal pleasure. Keep going. Brethren, thanks again for joining us today.

Absolutely. It was a pleasure to talk to you.

Man. I love that episode. I hope you guys did too.

Hey, this episode came about because Jake nominated himself for the podcast per my request. If you think you've got something very compelling to say about how the Gospel shapes what you do, why you do it, and how you do your work.

Let me know@jordanraynor.com contact that's J O R D A N R A Y N-O-R.com and we'd love to consider having you on the show.

Guys, thank you so much for tuning.

In this week to the Mere Christians Podcast. I'll see you next time.

Hey friends, this is your last chance to claim all the amazing pre order bonuses for five mere Christians before they go away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9. I've never offered this many pre order bonuses on a book before, so when you fill out the form@5merechristians.com Number one, you're going to be entered to win an incredible trip for you and a friend to tour CS Lewis's favorite spots in Oxford, explore Olay Kirk Christiansen's former stomping grounds at Lego headquarters in Denmark, and much more. Number two, you'll be invited to join my first ever interactive reading, culminating in a zoom call with me and my co author on this book, Kaylee Cox. Number three, you're going to be getting a money back guarantee to try the book risk free. And number four, you'll also get access to a free course I'm not selling anywhere called how to write a book 10x faster and better with an Affordable co author. You can claim all these bonuses in just two simple steps. Step 1 Pre order 5 mere Christians in any format you want. It can be hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever and you can order it from wherever. Doesn't matter to me. STEP 2 Go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form of that page. And that's it. I'll send you all those bonuses. You'll be entered into the sweepstakes with one simple form submission. But hey, don't wait all of these off. All of these offers, all these bonuses. They're going away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9th. So visit 5merechristians.com right now to claim your bonuses.