Jamie Ivey (Host of the Happy Hour Podcast)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back guarantee on this book. I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me, right. I know this is a very different biography is what is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because, listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, et cetera, et cetera, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work. But in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right? So that's the first reason this is a risk and I'm gonna de risk this book for you. Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended. End quote. But here's the thing. In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page. And that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9 by filling out that form. You'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on 5merechristians.com and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5meerchristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Quick editorial note before I share my conversation with my friend Jamie Ivy. Typically we air episodes of the Mere Christians podcast, I don't know, three, four weeks after we record them. This Episode is an exception, as Jamie and I recorded it way back in January. So if any mentions seem untimely, that's why. Now. Please enjoy the episode. Hey, friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I'm Jordan Rayner. How does the gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as legislators, dishwashers, and CEOs? That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to my friend Jamie Ivey. She's the host of the wildly popular Happy Hour podcast with tens of millions of downloads. Jamie and I recently sat down to talk about the vocational dream she has that she is really afraid to say out loud and how the gospel frees her to articulate that dream. We talked about how we can work hard with our hands without working hard with our souls. We also talked about why Jesus was so remarkably good at saying no to requests for his time. Trust me, you're not going to want to miss this episode with Jamie Ivey. Jamie Ivey. Welcome to the Mere Christians podcast.

My friend, Jordan Raynor. To say that I'm excited would be an. I'm so glad to be here. Thank you.

Are you as excited about this as you were about your DJing gigs?

Oh, well, let me just tell you, that was some excitement. That was like the way that that excitement is different though, is that like talking to you is exciting?

So much lamer than DJing a party.

That's not what I'm saying. That's not what I'm saying. It's so exciting. But I do this every day of my life.

Yeah, exactly.

The DJ thing was like, what is actually happening?

What's the story here?

Okay, this is the craziest thing. So a little bit of backstory. This happened in 2011 and I was a stay at home mom to four kids. And I always, always, always say that if you're able to stay home with your kids, it is a privilege. Most people in the world do not have that opportunity. So I was like privileged and also often days going, what am I doing with my life? Like Groundhog Day, Hello. And all the stay at home moms understand or stay at home dads. So I had not worked since before we had kids. And before we had kids, I was a teacher and I was a coach and I always thought I will go back to teaching and coaching one day. Loved it, loved it, loved it. All the things. And I'm driving in my car in Austin and the radio station that I listen to is a country Radio station. And they said, hey, we have this contest. Anyone, and I mean, anyone, can send in a submission. You didn't have to be in radio and television. And we're looking for a co host to join an already established morning show.

They were just desperate for talent.

It sounds like it.

They spent a lot of money in ads and got no takers.

This is so good, Jordan. I look back at Jamie Ivey in 2011, and I just am so proud of her. The fact that she went, okay, yeah, I'll try. And so I went home, and I'll never forget it. My husband had the flu, and so he was so sick. And he's a musical. He records stuff, and he's a pastor, all the things. But we have a studio in our back house. And I'm like, please, babe, please, please help me. And he's like, I don't want to help you. Bless his heart. He was sick and probably thinking, what are you actually doing? Why are you applying for a job at a radio station? This is ridiculous. Jamie. He didn't say that because he's kind. Anyhow, Jordan, I recorded something. Who knows how it sounded, probably so very cheesy. And I sent it in. And this was before I had Instagram. This was before I had a podcast. I had never stood on a stage. I had never. I mean, this was just. My life in 2011 was so different than it is now. And it was a voting, and we go to a large church. I always say I'm grateful for my church. And I just kept getting in the top 10, getting the top 10. And then I made the top 10, and then I made the top five, and then we all got to go in on one day and sit in. And my day was a Thursday. And I'll never forget, I went in and I left that day. And I said to myself as I was leaving, if nothing happens, that's one of the most fun things I've done in a really long time. And that's a great memory. And so I left, and then I ended up getting the job.

That's amazing. So you've been a mere Christian, not just this, you know, Christian writer. You actually had a real job. Jamie, come on. I had a real job. I know. I'm just kidding.

I know. The crazy thing about that is in my life in 2011. So we have four children. Three of them joined our family through adoption. And at that point, they had been home a little over a year. And so I got into this job, and I loved it. It was a time of My life, I literally thought, I have found my calling. This is what I'll do until I die. And then my home life got really difficult. The kids just needed me more. I went back to work too soon. And so I ended up quitting after four months. And I look back at that time and it was an easy decision on one hand, because I would do anything for my kids. And it was also very hard because I thought to myself, I've been a stay at home mom for, I don't know, seven years. God, you gave me something that was so fun. And I got to, I. I mean, I was at a country radio station. I'm not working at a church. This is just, I love this. And then you asked me to leave, and so there was a lot of confusion. But I mean, fast forward where we are now, 12 years later, 14, however many years later, and I mean, I couldn't have imagined it any different.

That's so good. I never heard that story. I love that so much.

I love that story so much too. And I know I lived it.

You, like, never get to tell it.

I'm like, I love it so much.

Yeah, it's so good. We're going to be telling that story over campfires on the new Earth for a long time.

It's going to be a good time. Well, that's.

Hey, I loved your new book.

Oh my gosh, Jordan, you read it together.

Yeah, I did. You know, the podcast thing. I skimmed it, but skimmed it heavily from front to back. Even saw a little redeeming your time shout out at the end, which I.

Was quite surprised about.

You're testing me to see if I actually read it. Hey, and you know, it's funny, I hear mere Christians in our audience uttering that phrase all the time. Why can't I get together? Why can't I get my career together? Why can't I get my time management systems together? And I love that you actually started out this book sharing a time management challenge, a scheduling mistake you made that led you to kind of blurt out this popular phrase. Can you share that story with us? Because I think it's so relatable.

Yeah, it's a common story. I mean, I think I could, like.

It wasn't a one time thing, right?

No, no, no, no. That's also what I always like to tell people is I'm still on this journey as well, you know, and there was a time which has happened not just once, but where as someone who has people who work for me and with me a lot of times, Things are put on my calendar to help me out. It's great. I love it. I always tell people, put anything. If you see a spot, put it on the calendar. It's fine. I'm here every day from 8 to 5. Make it work. Well, at this particular point, I had not checked my calendar, and something had been put on my calendar for me. And I had also promised to do something with my daughter. And it's a scheduling mishap that I think we all have. No matter what your job is, that you just go, I'm supposed to be doing two things at one time. I'm going to let somebody down. And so my options were I let down people at work, or my option was I let down my daughter. Both important, I would say, some days, equally important. I mean, I have a job, I have to work, you know, but I don't ever want to let down my kids, ever. And so it was this moment of going, there are seasons in my life where I've got to work harder at making sure that this doesn't happen. And so there was a little bit, if I'm honest, probably a little bit of shame that came up of like, golly, Jamie, are we still. Still doing this? Like, wow, I think you even said.

That in the book. Like, I think you even said, oh, I said out loud, like, jamie, come on, get it together. Like, why are we still doing, by the way, like, in that moment, what did it mean to you to have it together?

Right? Or said another way?

How do you think most people define this? And we're going to get to your definition in the book in a second, but how do you think most people define getting it together?

I think in that moment, I mean, getting it together, I think as an overall arch, not even just that particular moment, but people would define it as, like, I'm always right. I don't mean that in a right and wrong thing, but, like, I'm always where I'm supposed to be. There's never any question about who I am or what I'm doing or why I'm doing. I never mess up anything. You know, I'm never disappointing anyone. I'm living up to all the expectations that I've given myself or that other people have given myself. You know, we talk about our bodies. I'm always drinking water and exercising and doing all the things I never miss. Time with the Lord. Just all these things, things that we have, these expectations. People would define get it together as having all of those work right all the time. And if you have lived Longer than like four years, you know, that does not happen. You know, and so I probably, in that moment, Jordan, I probably shamed myself a little bit like Jamie, golly, are we still doing this? Come on. And that's what I don't want is I don't want us to shame ourselves because I want us to acknowledge, oh, you know what a mistake was made. So what do I need to do right now to fix this? There is an issue I need to fix right now. And then also what do I need to change about my life that this doesn't happen again? And I think that's a real thing of going. I need to evaluate what's happening, why is this happening and how do I fix it. I mean, there's a lot of ways for that particular way for that to happen is for me to a look at my calendar, you know, sooner than the morning up, that'd be help so that I put systems in my life to help me with that. And I know you talk about that all the time. And so I don't want to go to shame, even though I know that is often humans first response. But as Christians, we actually know that we have something better than shame. We have. We have hope on the other side of that. And so, yeah, that's a little bit about that moment in particular.

It's really good. I loved your definition of getting it together in the book. You said, getting it together is having the right responses to our current circumstances, end quote. And then you go on to say, and I thought this was like, super insightful, that the way we respond to our reality.

Right.

Is an indicator of our intimacy and relationship with God, end quote. So going back to the scheduling mistake that I think everybody has experienced listening, what did your response, that response of shame in that moment reveal about your relationship with God?

Well, I think it reveals a lot because the way we respond in those moments is like, I'm either like thinking that I am the one who keeps this world running or that there's somebody else that is keeping the world running. And I think what I want from myself and for people that read the book and listeners is for those moments when they do come up, because that moment has come up again. It's not like I am perfected. I just am not. I wish I was. And so when that moment comes up, I want my response to that moment to be like, wow, okay, so I made a mistake here. You know what? God's love hasn't changed for me. I'm not the worst mom in the world, and I'M not the worst employee in the world, but what I can do is I can respond to my daughter or the work thing, whichever one it was. I don't remember what happened at the end of that thing, but I can respond to them and ask for grace and ask for forgiveness, and then we can move forward. Like, we don't have to get stuck here. And I think a lot of times in life, we get stuck in that. Well, I did it again. I knew it. I am the worst person. And we talk about how that relates to our intimacy with the Lord. Man, the more I've grown in love with God, the more I've understood that his sacrifice for me, it did not negate these small little moments where I feel like I can't live up to what he wants from me or what the world wants from me or whatever it is that God is actually like. No, I actually thought really hard to redeem your life. And so you don't get to just kind of wake up and be like, oh, I'm the worst mom or I'm the worst worker. You get to proclaim victory over your life in other ways. And so, Jordan, I think it's a journey. And I think as I'm getting, you know, more into my fourth decade of life, I think I more realize and understand that we're going to be working out some of these things. Like, you know, Bible says, work out your salvation. We're going to be working out some of these things until we stand face to face with Jesus, you know, And I think that a lot of times people feel shame because they're having to work on things. And, man, I think, praise God, I get to work on this. Like, praise God, he's not done with me, and I can continue to learn and continue to grow. So that's kind of the response I want to have, is this response of like, continuing to learn, continuing to grow, continuing to live in his grace.

Yeah, it's so good. You talk a lot in the book about how in order to have that right response, right to whatever our circumstances are, we got to first take stock of our current circumstances.

Exactly.

And you talk about how all of our circumstances really fall into these six buckets. Can you briefly share what those six areas are? Jamie?

Yeah. I want to tell you this, Jordan. When I feel like I can't get it together, it's often, if it really goes down, we go all the way down to the bottom. It's often because I'm basing my life on someone else's life. And so I Looked at these six areas and I thought, okay, what are the six areas? And spells out the word ponder. So past and present hurts. What am I hurting from? Obligations. This is the things I should do because I said yes to. I'm obligated to this because I said yes to it.

Needs.

What does my body need? Particularly focus on body in the book. What does my body need? D what are the desires I have? Desires can be a super scary word in some church cultures of like, they're big, they're bad. You know what? I have desires in life. And I mean, like, I mean, I want to have a bookstore one day, Jordan. I want to own a bookstore. My tiny little town. It'd be so fun. E is for expectations. And that can be expectations that we put on ourselves or honestly that we live under other people's expectations. And the last one is responsibility. And responsibility is different than obligations because responsibility are things I have to do. You know, I have four children, so I have to take care of them or the state will take them away from me. That is my responsibility. Whereas an obligation, you know, I told my daughter, I'll take you out to breakfast on Fridays. I said I would do that. I should follow through with that. And so I started to think to myself in these six areas of my life. Here's the key, Jordan. These six areas for me as a 45 year old woman look dramatically different, drastically, I should say, than when I was 26 years old. And so I think we have to take this current inventory of our life and it helps us see what are the areas that I'm struggling in, what are the areas that actually need more of my time right now. And it's been so helpful for me in figuring out what it means to get it together for each of us individually.

I want to talk more about desire in a minute because I think that's a particular challenge for Christian professionals. But first I want to talk about the O of obligations, because I know a lot of mere Christians have a lot of things that they've said they will do at work, at home, and it gets overwhelming.

Right?

And as you know, I talk a lot redeeming your time about our yes being yes per Jesus command. Right? But I also talk a lot about saying yes less frequently so that we have fewer obligations in the first place. And you wrote in the book, quote, so often we push ourselves to our maximum capacity and beyond with too many yeses. Jesus offers a different path, end quote. How so? Where do you see evidence that Jesus is offering us the path of as Greg McEwen would say it, less but better and fewer yeses.

Yeah, I think if we were to look at the life of Jesus, Jesus was here for 33 years. We see three years of his ministry. And we do see, you know, scripture shows us a lot of the miracles, Miracles he performs, a lot of the things about his life. But we also. If you think about it, Jordan, if I. This. This is why I'm not God, okay? If I were God and I'm the.

Number 783, why Jamie and Jordan are not God. Tune in next time.

If I were to come down to the earth to redeem it and be the Messiah and the Savior of the world, man, I would have been crazy busy. I would have done so much. And while we do know that Jesus did a lot, we also do know that Jesus only said yes to. He had a lot of disciples. We do know that. But he had this inner circle. He had to say a lot of no's there. You know, we see that Jesus, you know, when he finds out that one of his friends is really, really sick and dying, he says no to moving quickly for reasons in the scripture that are bigger than we can probably understand today even. But we do see that he offers this path of like, rest and rejuvenation and come to me and I will help you. And I think so often we're saying yes to so many things that we think will provide us the rest and rejuvenation. And as a follower of Jesus, I want to be someone that says, man, I need to make my yeses count because I also need to make sure that I'm running to him for the rest and for the rejuvenation. I think a lot of our yeses, we're wanting them to fill that in for us. On the flip side of that, I think a lot of our yeses is because we have this idea that we think, if I'm a good fill in the blank, banker, teacher, postal worker, fitness instructor, whatever, then I should be doing all of these things. And while there are a lot of things that you should be doing to do well at your job, that that's not up for debate. There are things you should do well. There are also some things that I actually believe that we're saying yes to in hopes that they will make us better at whatever, and they're draining the life out of us. And so for me, personally, I had to look at, what are these obligations I need to say yes to. I tell a story in the book. This was when my podcast was A baby podcast. And I was just getting started speaking, still at home full time with my kids mainly. And I made a list of things I would say yes to. And, you know, there was four things on the list. And I had an opportunity to do something that wasn't on the list, and I said yes to that opportunity. And then I came back in the house after that call, and I remembered that stupid list I had made, like, you know, a month earlier. And I went back and forth because I was like, God, listen, can we just forget the list thing that I did? Like, I know that you asked me to make this list, but this is dumb. Now I have this great opportunity. Surely, surely you will let this one thing slide. And I just couldn't get past it. It wasn't a legalism thing. It was a commitment thing. Like, I had really felt the Lord say, these are the things I want you to commit to. And so I had to say no. And I look back on that season, and I think at that time, we often fear say no. Because I thought, I'll never be invited to do anything with this person again. Like, this was it. That was my one shot. And, God, you're just so mean that you asked me to say no. Not everyone does. I can't tell you how your story is going to end, but for me, I've had, you know, tons of opportunities to do other stuff with that person. But it was hard to say no, Jordan. But I knew my capacity, and I think God is preparing me for something on the other side of that. I needed to walk through that. I needed to say no. I needed to learn how to say no, even.

Yeah, it's good.

Can I say this, too real quick, Jordan?

Say whatever you want.

Jamie, how old are you?

37.

Okay. I am your elder. All right.

There we go.

I also want to say this is. I've talked to some of my other girlfriends, and you can ask your listeners if they are in their 40s. Is that I think something happens when you get in your 40s. I don't know if you get a little bit more secure in who you are or what you're doing. That some of the things that plagued me more like if we're talking about obligations of saying yes more than I should, it doesn't plague me as much anymore today. And I don't know if that's maturity. I don't know if it's spiritual growth. I don't know what it is. I'm grateful for it, you know, But I do know that in my 30s, I thought if I say no, I'll never get asked again. Kind of that FOMO type thing. And I just. Maybe I'm more secure and in my job and my giftings and my calling. I don't know.

I want you to work it out right here in like three minutes. Okay. Because I think there is, like a spiritual maturity here when we're afraid of saying no to something because we're going to miss out on it.

Right?

Because we feel like we're never going to have a chance to work with that person. There's something deep going on there. Like, as you look over time, what do you think in God's word, in your relationship with the Lord has just freed you up to say no more? We talked about the example of Jesus, right? But is there anything else? Is there any other truth in scripture that you've latched onto that's just made it easier for you to deliver these no's?

No. I think one of the things I've really tried to do, and I don't talk about it much in this book, but I did previously and another something I wrote is like, really try to figure out what's my calling in life, like, what's my lane? And I think as someone who may have a different job than a lot of your listeners, since I work the kind of same job like you do, like, I'm a podcaster and I write books, there was this time where I had to figure out what is my lane and what does that look like for me. And I think that people have to figure that out in their jobs for sure. But I think outside of our work as well, with how we spend our time with volunteer work, like, what does that look like if you're a parent? Like, how much involvement do you have in what your kids are doing? And that is a conversation in and of itself of what does that look like? And so I think I had to just kind of cling to. There's this parable that Jesus tells about a man. I'm going to mess it up because I don't have it right in front of me. It's at the end of Matthew where he talks about where a man goes away and he leaves his. Hold on. I'm just gonna pull it up because I feel like this would be better with God's word. It's at the end of Matthew. Let me.

Let me handle his original source.

Exactly. Let me handle it where it's coming from. Matthew, Mark, Luke. Okay, here we are. You'll either edit this or my favorite.

Episode, my Favorite episodes. I could think back Randy Alcor and Mark Batterson, where I just, like, hear pages of God's word turning.

Oh, okay, here it is. It's Matthew 25. I knew it was the end. And it's a parable. The talents. And the man goes away. He leaves his servants in charge of his property. One of them he gives them five, another, he gives them two, and another, he gives them one. And it says in verse 15, there's a key phrase in there that I think has been so helpful for me, is it says, I'll read the whole verse, verse 15 to one, he gave five talents. To another, he gave two to another one. And this is the key phrase right here. To each according to his ability. And that has been so profound for me because I think I have worked with obligations or expectations. I mean, fill in the blank of trying to do something that's not to my ability, if that makes sense. And it's not like, oh, I want to be a better podcaster. Guess what? That's my lane. That's where I am. Okay, That I do want to be a better podcast.

That's the talent God's given you to steward.

Exactly. But when I start looking and wondering, why do they have five and why do I have two? Because that's the what was for their ability. And I just think that has been so helpful for me is to go like, okay, what is my lane and where do I thrive in? And then, I mean, if we go on with this parable to talk about it, the guy comes back and he's like, okay, hey, I'm back. I've been gone for a long time. I want to settle our account. What have you done? The one who received five, he came forward and he brought his five, and he's like, hey, I made five more. Master's like, well done, good and faithful. You've been faithful over a little. I will set you over much. Enter to the joy of your master. Then the person that got two came for. He's like, hey, master, you gave me two, I made two more. And the master's like, well done. You know, clap. Way to go. Here you go. The one who had received the one came forward saying, master, I knew you'd be a hard man, blah, blah, blah. He said, you know what I did? I buried it. I was so afraid of it. And the master was very unhappy with him. And the thing that I always love about that parable is it didn't matter if they had five or two or one. The master wanted them to do something with it. And the person with the one thought, holly, I mean, I only got one. I'm just gonna bury it and not do anything with it. And that has been profound for me in my work life of, like, God, how about I quit looking around and seeing what everyone else is doing? And how about I, like, walk the path you gave me? And how about I take the talent you've given me and do something with it? That's been so helpful for me, Jordan, in maybe that's the spiritual maturity that comes along where I just go, you know what? I can say no to that because it's not my lane. It's not what I'm doing.

It's impossible to say no unless you know what you're saying yes to. Like, I think about that passage in Mark, chapter one, where Jesus spends his late night healing, and the next day his followers come to him and are basically saying, hey, everyone's looking for you. It's Mark 1:37. They're looking for an encore of Healing. And Jesus replied, let us go somewhere else to the nearby villages so I can preach there also. That is why I have come. Right? It took an understanding of Jesus, yes, Preaching the gospel and word, indeed, in order for him to say no to lesser things. That was the key to not overwhelming himself with obligations. All right, let's talk about the D and ponder desires. You already shared your vocational desire for a bookstore. I smiled so big when I was reading your book and I read about the bookstore. Tell everyone else about your other vocational dream here.

Oh, you want me to say my other one? Yes, this is the one I don't like saying out loud because it feels so, like, far. I mean, I know, Trust me.

We're gonna unpack. Why in just a second. But.

But my friends are actually like, jamie, it's not that far fetched from what you do. Okay? So stop saying that. Okay. So great desire for me would be. I would think it'd be so fun to own a bookstore slash wine bar. I live outside of Austin and Dripping Springs, and it would just be so fun. So that's like this fun desire that I just were like, oh, God, how fun. And then there's this other desire, Jordan, that I can't believe you're making me say out loud. Although I wrote it in the book, so. Jamie, get over yourself. So I have always, I mean always for a long time, really thought, you know what? I would love to have my own TV show. Which, just saying it, I literally want to crawl under the table. But I love Interviewing people. I get to do tv, I do some stuff with Better Together, which is on the TBN network. And love every time I'm with them. I just. I really just love it so much. And so I wrote that desire in there. And the thing. Okay, I told you my desires. Do you want me to tell you anything else about them?

Here's what I want you to tell me. Why is it so hard for you to articulate that out loud? I think I know struggle for most of our listeners to. Especially Christians, right? To communicate their vocational longings and desires. What is that? What's the source of that?

I know why. And let's just have a little counseling session, okay? Here's why. It's how we guard ourselves. Because for me to say that out loud and then it never happens, well, if I make light of it, then it's just kind of funny. And then I'm guarding my heart so that if it never happens, then it was just kind of this funny joke, this funny desire. And I think that we. We do that to keep ourselves from getting hurt, if that makes sense. Another thing I think is this would be a struggle for mine as well, is I would hear in my head from the deceiver. That is for sure. I would hear in my head, Jamie, you know, everyone's laughing at you when you say that, because they're all thinking, who does she think she is to be able to have that desire? And the fact that I wrote in the book, you can tell that I have battled that. And I am on the other side of that in a lot of ways. Of, like, that thought might come into my head, but it doesn't sit there and it doesn't get the final word. But I think that's what we do. We want to protect ourselves. And then we actually do believe no one is for us around us. They're all actually laughing at us. And that takes me right back to, like, middle school lunchroom. You know, those feelings are really scary for people to sit with. And I'm saying I sit with them sometimes, and then I battle them, which is why I can say it out loud to you and put it in the book. But I'm glad you brought that up, because it's almost like you're calling me out on that. And I appreciate it. Of, like, why is your dream funny, Jamie? Like, that's kind of where I'm sitting here. Like, why is that desire funny? Why can't it just be a real desire? And I'm kind of preaching to myself right now of like, Just let it be a desire and call it a day, you know?

And doesn't our security as children of God make it easier to articulate that desire in a serious way? Right. Because even if I fail at that, it should. Right? Like, we should be the boldest people on the planet.

Totally.

Because if we take that big swing, you're like, yeah, I said it. I want to be Oprah. Boom, mic drop. Right? Like, and, like, take that big swing and fail. We still have Christ. Like, we can respond to failure in such a joyful way that the world can't comprehend. And either in our success or our failure, all glory goes to Christ.

100%. That is the best news about the gospel, is that we are not defined by what we do say or are here on earth. We're defined by Jesus sacrifice for us. Yes, yes, yes. And at the same time, we are human, and we have to fight this. Actually, here's what I say all the time. Like, when people are struggling with something, I'm like, the fact that you're struggling is good news. Like, that is good news. And so the fact that you haven't just succumbed to your. Your struggle or you haven't just been like, well, this is just who I am. You know, I'm just this person. That's when you should be concerned. And so I agree with you. And I think that we do have something more behind us. Like, for me, say that desire out loud. Would that be so fun if that happened? Yes. It doesn't define me, whether it does or doesn't. And I think that's where the confidence.

Yes.

Can come in for us as Christ followers.

Because you have nothing to truly lose.

Exactly. Shoot for the stars, you know, like, what is that dumb saying? You say it all the time.

Even if you miss, you'll land.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I apologize.

It's my least favorite phrase, but, yeah.

But you know, that whole idea. And so I think, like, man, we as followers of Jesus, and this is why I talk about desires, too, in this book, Jordan, is because there are some people who are like, your desires are bad. Push all your desires bad. And we're not talking sexual desires here, just so everyone knows. But your desires are bad. All these things push them down. And then some people are like, well, your desires should rule your heart. Like, you know, this is. Make your dream board. And I'm not against dream boards either, but make your dream board, and then this is all it is. What. What I'm trying to say here is that sometimes our desires can actually make us feel like we can't get it together because it's what we dwell on a hundred percent. And we'll, if we're going to keep using my example of the TV show, if I only thought about that nonstop, like, not like I'm like making a speaker reel or I'm contacting networks. If I'm over here thinking, I hate my life because I'm not on this TV show, man, I can't believe I have to podcast today. I wish I was, you know, on TV or you see, I'm saying, like it becomes so much that it takes away from the places that God's put you. That's when I think you can feel like you can't get it together. And so how do we deal with those desires? We put them in a safe place and that's right there in the arms of Jesus. You know, we can have our desires as long as they don't overwhelm us and overtake our life.

That's the line between, I think, a godly God given desire that we should chase after in an idol I just pulled open.

Exactly.

Quote from one of my all time favorite books by Keller, counterfeit Gods. He says, quote, idols capture our imagination and we can locate them by looking at our daydreams. What do we enjoy imagining? What are our fondest dreams? And I know he says somewhere else, whatever your mind goes to when there's nothing else to think about, that's your God. And so it's good, I think, to want to be on tv, but if that's the only thing we think about when the noise stops and we're on a long walk, yeah, that might be a good sign that that's become an idol.

I think too, I love that about idols. And I think that with desires, you know, there's a scripture that says, you know, God, give me the desires of my heart. And what I've seen God do and what, what that means there as well is like, the more I'm falling in love with Jesus, the more my desires just kind of line up with what he wants from me. And so it's not a matter of like, here's all my desires, God, now make them all come true. It's a matter of like, the more I fall in love and the more I know God, the more I start to desire things that he wants for me. And I've seen that with some of my friends who are desiring marriage or desiring children because neither one of those things are bad. They're not bad at all. They are good and they are awesome. And God loves both of those things. And oftentimes I can see some of my friends who are single, in their 40s, yes, they still desire marriage that hasn't gone away. It doesn't consume their life anymore because they're falling more in love with God, if that makes sense. And it's hard. I'll tell you a funny story real quick, Jordan, about desires. Do you ever look at houses online?

I don't, but I do by way of my bride who looks them up as we're driving past them. Yes.

Okay, so this is me. Like, I'm so. I can say out loud, I'm so content where I am. But the story I'm about to tell you might say otherwise. I'm like. I actually am like, God, purify my heart. What is happening? Okay, So I am very content. All the things but my husband and I have talked about. You know, we have four kids. We have a bit. After they leave, we might move houses. Right? But, like, not now. Okay. But I find myself sometimes when I just want to zone out in life, looking at houses on Zillow. And so I thought it was just the secret thing between me and my computer that nobody knew about. Okay, I'm just looking at these houses. Then I found myself, like, sometimes, like, desiring a new house. Like, I look at my house and I'm like, my house does stink. I wish I had that house I looked at last night. You know, I didn't think anything of it. I get a phone call the other day, and the person's like, hey, Jamie, this is whatever their name was. And I was like, okay, who are you? And he tells me. He goes, well, it looks like you have been looking at houses on our website. And I was like, oh, okay, yeah. He goes, are you interested? I was like, no, I'm just kind of looking. He's like, well, it looks like in the last month you've looked at 660 houses. And I was like, oh, my gosh. I literally felt like, is this the Lord? Is hello, God? Is this you? And I was very embarrassed. Okay, Very. But he thinks I'm just a person looking for a new house. And I know in my heart I'm a person who was desiring something that God doesn't have for me right now. And I thought it was just between me and my computer screen. And I haven't even told Aaron this story. It's kind of funny, but I haven't looked at houses since then because it was just this, like. Although we can Laugh about it. It's funny. It was this moment of going, okay, Jamie, where has your heart been about houses? You and Aaron have had kind of very shallow conversations about maybe in five years we'll move. And yet you have let this idea of moving take hold in your heart to where it's brought up a little bit of discontentment, it's brought up a little bit of envy. And that phone call from whoever. And I literally was like, how do you have my number? And how do you know all these houses I've looked at? I felt very invaded.

Zillow data. That Zillow is strong.

Yeah, yeah. So anyhow, it just was this moment for me to even go, wow, why am I spending so much time maybe wanting something that's not mine? And I'm in a busy season right now with life. You and I talked about that before we started with launching a book. And I think sometimes we can try to zone out in things that we think are going to give us rest, just like we talked about earlier. And by no means is looking at houses wrong or sinful, all the things. But what I had begun a pattern of was looking at things that I can't have right now, but it was making me want to desire them. And I just think we can do that with so many things in our jobs, you know, we can look around and be like, gosh, if only I could have that job over there, you know? And we become very discontent all of a sudden where we weren't discontent before. And maybe if this is the listeners thinking, like, I need a phone call like that, I need a little wake up to go, wait, what you're doing of this daydreaming, it actually does affect your life. It actually does affect the work that you're doing now. So I'm not looking at houses anymore because somebody has my phone number.

His name is Jesus. Okay? That was the guy's name. Hey, you've mentioned rest a couple of times. You're in this busy launch season. I'm in this busy launch season with my book. And I think this will be helpful for all of our listeners for the times that they are in really busy seasons. How do you work hard at the thing you believe God's called you to do while also finding your rest in Christ? And we throw around these terms like, what does that mean practically for you, Jamie, to work hard with your hands, but not hard with your soul?

You know, I think after every busy season, and I have, you know, a few of those every year, I kind of look and do A little reevaluation of what happened here. And one of the things that this is going to sound like, wow, I'm surprised that she would struggle with that. One of the things that can often go for me, unfortunately, in busy seasons, is a good amount of time spent with the Lord. And I will kind of supplement by listening to God's word on the way to work, which is not bad at all. This, I'm not saying that's bad. I will supplement with something pretty quick, you know, just like, oh my gosh, you know, here it is at 6pm I should do something again, it's not bad. But what I know is about me is that I need that. I need the lingering with God more in the busy seasons. And so for me, I'm not a journaler, but starting January, I had a journal that I was going to bring with me when I would sit down to read God's word. And so it's been so helpful for me because it causes me to linger. It causes me to write out the scripture I'm memorizing. It causes me to write out what I'm reading in God's Word. It causes me to write out what I'm praying for. And I even saying that I know that a lot of people, you're like, well, that's what I do every day. And I try to do that every day as well. My point is, in busy seasons I can forego that and say like, I'm just going to listen today or, or fill in the blank. And so for me, I've really tried. Do I accomplish that every day of that lingering? It's the lingering I'm talking about. No, not every day, but when I do it, I actually feel different that day. And it's like crazy how God tells us, if you come to me, I'll give you rest. And so it's actually true. So that's one of the things. Just from another, just like a work standpoint, I told you earlier that before we started recording that I feel like most days I leave the office and I could have worked for two more hours. And what's really hard for me is I want to go home and continue working. And granted, there are some days that's just. It is what it is. You have to do that. But there are some days, I'll give you an example. Yesterday I left the office, I still had things I could do. In fact, I sent a mass email that was like, hey, you probably emailed me today. Sorry, I'm going home. And I left. I went out to dinner with my husband. And then I went home, did family stuff, and went to bed. And the thing that makes that a little bit profound is I wanted to get my computer out. I wanted to keep working. I'm sure that some people wanted a response to their email, but at the end of the day, I just said, it's going to be there tomorrow. Again, there are some days that's not possible. It has to be done. And then there are some days where I'm going, you know what? There's no have to today. I will do this in the morning. And that I think a lot of your listeners will resonate with that because as someone who enjoys work, I love my job. I actually, a lot of days would work till 6 or 7 because I find I'm great. I love it, it's great. But I'm losing family time there. I'm losing things by doing that. And so choosing that to linger in God's word and then to actually be okay with stuff not happening until tomorrow has been really good for me.

I think a lot about this phrase from the Catholic theologian Carl Ra? Ranner of the fact that we're all going to die with unfinished symphonies. And I think the quicker you come to grips with that, the easier it is to keep the laptop away, even if you love the work. So, Jamie, we wrap up every episode with the same three questions. Number one, which books do you find yourself recommending most frequently to others? Like, if we pulled open your Amazon order history, what's popping up over and over again?

So the three books that I thought of this morning, knowing that we were going to talk about this, were one I read a long time ago called Just Mercy, and it's by Bryan Stevenson. I highly recommend it for anyone who is like, I'd like to kind of dip a toe in a conversation about racial injustice in America. And so Just Mercy highly recommend that. I read a book about a year and a half ago by a woman named Alicia Britcholi, and the book is called Anonymous. And it's really, really, really good. It's Jesus's Hidden years and yours. And yes, it is really good. And just even in the conversation we've had today about, like, rest and what does that look like and running to Jesus for that stuff, this is going to be a really great book for people. And then the last one, did you ask for three? Nope. You said books. I'm giving you three.

However many you want.

The last one I actually read last semester for my seminary class, and I have told everybody about it. It's called with by Sky Gitani.

It's one of my all time favorites.

Ah, yay. I'm so glad. I just read it last year for school and then I was like, I have to tell everyone about this book. It's called with and then the tagline is reimagining the way you relate to God. Super helpful.

Sky's been on here talking about I love him. Oh, I'm a big sky fan. By the way, if you want a recent interview with sky on the book with. Didn't you just do this?

Didn't you just. Yeah. Of the year sky was on the.

Happy hour, which actually, you know what's funny? First episode of the new year of the Mere Christians podcast was with Sky.

Oh, my gosh. That is one of the chances.

All right, Jamie, who do you want to hear on this podcast talking about how their faith shapes their work? Ideally not somebody who's a pastor, religious professional, but who just works in the world as a mere Christian, who do you get?

Well, this is someone that I actually just want to meet in real life. And so if you have her on, I would like to just, you know, just on the call as well. So I'm very interested in people. Like, this is the first person comes on my mind. But people who work in this will be no surprise since I told you my desire. People who work in TV world industry and have a robust faith. The person I'm about to tell you, I have no idea how their faith is at all. I do think they have a faith. Jenna Bush Hager, who is one of the co hosts on the Today show. And so I just. Anybody in that realm of like, we work in TV movie industry and we love God. Not just like, I love God, like I got baptized when I was five and I got confirmed, but like following Jesus, I'm following Jesus. Yes. So something like that.

I love that. Hey, when we stop recording, might be able to help in this direction, Jordan. We'll see, we'll see, we'll see. Hey, all right, last question. You're talking to this global audience of Mere Christians, very diverse vocationally. What they share is a desire to do their work in a way that glorifies God and loves their neighbor as themselves. What's one thing from the book or today's conversation you want to reiterate to them before we sign off?

Man, I think for all of us who trying to do our best in our work, trying to do our best in our family, trying to do our best and following Jesus, the one thing that I would want you to hear today is that when you continue to spend your life looking around at other people's lives and wondering why they have it together and you don't, you will continually be dissatisfied in what you're doing because a whole nother conversation would be how much of people's lives we don't actually know about, but we just see, you know. And so then we base our expectations based on that. And I just want people to know that when we take this inventory, what does your life look like right now? Like, what does it look like for you today to figure out? How do you follow Jesus in that way? It is just the best thing you can do, no matter what season you're in, is to figure out what is my most important thing for me today and then I can get it together.

Hey Jamie, I want to commend you for just the terrific work you do every day for the glory of God.

Jordan, you're so nice.

Seriously, like, you're so good at your craft and you're just so good at always coming back to Jesus and reminding us of the hope we have in Christ that's secure regardless of whether or not we've got it all together. So thank you for coming to Hanging out today, guys. I can't recommend this book highly enough. Why Can't I Get It Together by my friend Jamie Ivey. Jamie, thanks for hanging out with us today.

Thanks Jordan.

Hey, if you enjoyed this episode as much as I did, do me a favor and go leave a review of the Mere Christian Podcast on Apple Spotify wherever you listen to the show. Hey, thank you guys so much for listening this week. I'll see you next time. Hey friends, this is your last chance to claim all the amazing pre order bonuses for five mere Christians before they go away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9. I've never offered this many pre order bonuses on a book before, so when you fill out the form@5merechristians.com Number one, you're going to be entered to win an incredible trip for you and a friend to tour CS Lewis's favorite spots in Oxford, explore Olay, Kirk Christiansen's former stomping grounds at Lego headquarters in Denmark, and much more. Number two, you'll be invited to join my first ever interactive reading, culminating in a zoom call with me and my co author on this book, Kaylee Cox. Number three, you're going to be getting a money back guarantee to try the book risk free. And number four, you'll also get access to a free course I'm not selling anywhere called how to write a book 10x faster and better with an Affordable co Author. You can claim all these bonuses in just two simple steps. Step 1 Pre order 5 mere Christians in any format you want. It can be hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And you can order it from wherever. It doesn't matter to me. Step 2 Go to 5meerchristians.com and fill out the form of that page. And that's it. I'll send you all those bonuses. You'll be entered into the sweepstakes with one simple form submission. But hey, don't wait all of these off. All of these offers, all these bonuses. They're going away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9th. So visit 5meerchristians.com right now to claim your bonuses.