Jena Viviano (Career Strategist)

The episode you're about to listen to was released back when the Mere Christians podcast was called the Call to Mastery. Now, if you love Mere Christians, you're still going to love these older episodes because the majority of each conversation focuses on how the gospel influences the work of our guests. With that disclaimer out of the way, please enjoy the episode.

Foreign.

Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Call to Mastery. I'm Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. Each week I'm releasing a conversation with a Christian who's pursuing world class mastery of their vocation. We're talking about their path to mastery. We're talking about their habits and routines and what makes them super productive. And we're talking about how they're faith influences their work. Today, I'm excited to share this conversation I recently had with my friend, Jenna Viviano. Jenna and I met a few months ago and I was so blown away by her and her story. I knew I had to have her on the podcast. So Jenna started out her career as an investment banker on Wall street where a co worker actually introduced her to Christ. And today she is a super impressive consulting practice where she helps ambitious professionals find their dream job, find work that they love. And that's all very much fueled by a really solid theology of work that we're going to talk about on this episode. So Jenna and I recently sat down in Franklin, Tennessee. We talked about the story behind her radical conversion on Wall Street. We talked about how she has helped more than many 900 clients land their dream jobs. And we talked about the good, the bad, and the quite ugly about being a three on the Enneagram. So I think you're really going to enjoy this conversation. I think you're going to get a lot of really practical tips about your career and finding work that you love and more importantly, that can serve others well in this episode. So without further ado, here's my conversation with Jenna Viviano. Jenna Viviano, how are you?

I'm so good. It is a beautiful day in Franklin, Tennessee.

It's miserably hot. So I literally just got off the plane from Tampa and I realized this morning I hadn't checked the weather because I'm like, I don't know, it's like September. I don't expect it to be cold somewhere, but I'm like, it might be cold in Franklin, Tennessee. Oh no, it's gonna be hotter than it is in Tampa today. It's wild so you just moved to Franklin, right?

I moved to Franklin about two years ago and moving from the Northeast, y. From New York City. I lived in New York City for about five years, and I moved to Nashville, to Franklin. I really don't know the answer. Why. It just kind of felt like I was supposed to move here, which is very weird. Everyone asked me, why did you move to Nashville? Like, what's your reasoning? Yeah. And I. And I said, honestly, I just felt like I was supposed to. That was pretty much my straight answer. I just felt like I was supposed to. It was close enough to home where I'm from. It was, you know, creative, and that was pretty much my only reason.

Where are you from?

I'm from Pittsburgh.

Okay.

Yeah, we're a Steelers fan, although they're not playing very well right now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not at all. That's interesting. So I was just saying before we start recording, I feel like I've moved to Nashville in a way.

I feel like everyone lives here.

I know. So ever since I committed to writing and producing content to help the church connect their faith with their work, I'm just up here a lot and just naturally for conferences and all that good stuff. So I'm learning a lot about the city, learning a lot about Nashville and Franklin. What's your favorite thing about Nashville? The greater Nashville area, we'll call it.

What I think Nashville does really well, that other cities, I don't know if they do as well because I've lived in a really big city and then I've lived in Pittsburgh, which is a medium sized city. I'd say Nashville is smaller than that. And Franklin for sure smaller than that. It's like the Stars Hollow of the South. But I think that Nashville has a really good taste of the city life that's growing and vibrant. And also you can get the country in 20 minutes.

Yeah.

So for me, that was like, I couldn't have moved from New York City to like Birmingham, Alabama. Like, I don't think that would have worked for me. But Nashville is like that good taste of both and.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's beautiful.

Where's your favorite place to escape in the country? Out here.

Oh, and the country. Oh, gosh. Leapers Fork, which is right around Franklin. Honestly, it's a little bit. It's. It's just has a lot more country area, a lot more open spaces. You see a lot of horses, a lot of, like, farms. I keep telling my boyfriend, I was like, if we get married, I'd love to live in the country. Just saying I'm just gonna drop that.

Just saying, just dropping, dropping clues. So we met, I don't know, three months ago, four months ago, something like that. And it was one of those conversations where there's like this instant connection, like we are very much kindred spir. Your story, though, is like fascinating me. And I remember I had like the very quick version of it because I was running into a meeting.

It was such a great conversation, by the way. That was so encouraging to me. I don't think you even know. I like left that conversation. And I was like, he prayed for me. And it was just, it was just, it was what I needed in that moment. And the Lord knew that that was the conversation I needed to have because I was feeling so discouraged and like a lot of just stuff that was going on. So I just want to first applaud you.

I appreciate that. And it was encouraging for me to. We were, we won't get into details right now, but we were both coming up against some very big decisions.

Ye.

And I think you were encouraging me as well. So I got the short version of your story in that call. Tell us the slightly longer version of your story. Who are you? I mean, you're this world class career strategist helping hundreds and hundreds of clients today. What's the path from the beginning of your career to today?

Messy.

Yeah. As it often is. Yeah.

So I mean, I grew up in a Christian home. Like we went to a Presbyterian church growing up. But I would say that I wasn't really a believer at that point. I would have head knowledge but no heart connection at all whatsoever as to what the gospel actually meant. And I went to college and I was having fun in college and I think I kept trying to engage my faith, but there was just nothing happening. And you go to college and I really didn't know what I wanted to do. And my parents said to me, we think you should do finance because it makes sense. My dad was in construction. He was an entrepreneur, he owned a business. And they didn't know I was first generation in my family to go to college. And he saw the people that he was doing these customs, projects for were in finance. So he's like, all right, well you're going to be set up if you're in finance. And so I went to Lehigh University, which is in Pennsylvania, the only claim to fame in the South. The only reason why people know Lehigh is because we beat Duke like one year. If you're familiar with basketball, CJ McCollum went to Lehigh. So that's like our literal only claim to fame. But I went to school there and I had this finance degree and I got an internship this summer before my senior year. And I worked. I got this opportunity at Citibank to be an investment banker. I like, had no desire to be a banker. I really didn't even know what Wall street was when I was a kid. Again, grew up in a blue collar Pittsburgh, you know, and I had all these boys that were around me that was like their dream job. And I just kind of like landed it. And I don't really know. I think I wore like a red blaze or something like I shouldn't have worn. I just was not appropriately dressed.

Not dark blue.

No, no. And so I, you know, I had this job before my senior year. They gave me had the internship and then I had an offer before my sen of college. So I was like, I'm smooth sailing. Like, Jenna had a lot of pride in what, what, you know, the girl that got the job before she even started senior year. I just, I was very wrapped up in that, I think. And I got there, you know, I started my first, you know, week of work and then I had training. And then like reality set in and you're done with your training and you're like in real life. And I'm working 80 hours a week. And it was at that point that, and I will get very honest, it was at that point that I had a really bad eating disorder that started from that experience. And I really do think that was from the stress of what I was under in that job. And I mean, I was working, you know, 80, 100 hours a week. And I remember laying on the bathroom floor of the building. I won't give you the exact address, know exactly where. I was easily Googleable, on the 32nd floor on a Saturday morning. And I had just had another episode kind of with my eating disorder. And I remember sitting there and I said, God, I don't know if you're real, but if you're real, you've got to get me out of here. I've got. I can't. I can't do this anymore. Like, I just can't. I was physically ill, mentally ill, emotionally ill. Like, I had no creativity left. And a couple weeks later, I had an interview at the New York Stock Exchange. Sorority sister, kind of like, throw me a bone, basically. I went to that interview. I think I cried. I cried during my interview because I was so tired and so overwhelmed.

It's a heck of a strategy.

And yeah, it was my worst Worst one ever. And I always joke that they saved me from investment banking. And so it was there, actually when I worked at the New York Stock Exchange that I had a coworker that I like, I think I floated out that I was interested in church or something. Something like I was just kind of like throwing bones out there. And there's a co worker that I had, and he doesn't think anything of what he did at all whatsoever. But he just kind of invited me into his life, acted as a whole person and just showed up and was very honest about where he was in his faith. And he kept on inviting me to this thing called Crew Millennials. Have you heard of Crew?

Yeah, sure.

Okay. So they had this like, new pilot program in New York City with these leaders for people that were just out of school for Millennials, which was super awesome. And they were having this retreat and they kept asking me to go. And I was like, no, I'm not going with these Christians. They're like, probably super weird. Like, I was not feeling it. And he just kind of kept asking me until finally we were at a happy hour event with work and he just turned and he said, I really think you should go. And I was like, okay, if I go, then he'll maybe stop asking me, right?

You just gave it.

I just came. I just totally gave in and I went and I. The woman who picked me up from the train station ended up being my mentor and she sat with me over many a tear stained salad. Kerry Walker, now Lauer, she just was amazing. And she just met me where I was at and just let me process through a lot of the stuff that I was going through. Yeah. So I just, I feel like that was really the catalyst to help me grow my faith and figure out, like, who am I? So I like, joke that I found Jesus on Wall street, which is very weird. Right. It's not normal. But it was because of a coworker who literally just showed up as a whole person. He wasn't like throwing a Bible on my desk. He wasn't like. He just showed up as a whole person and invited me in, which I appreciated. And so from that perspective, like, that's how really my faith started to grow. And then I realized, hey, I want to figure out what I'm really good at, because I think that God cares about that. And finance was not it, like, terrible place to figure out you're bad at finance is Wall Street. I figured that out and then I ended up pivoting and worked at a startup for two years. Which was a career advice startup called the Muse.

Yeah, not just any startup.

Yes.

Pretty impressive startup.

Yeah, it's pretty impressive.

Raised $30 million.

Yeah. So I actually was there. I was like the 33rd employee. Like the 10th or 11th salesperson. Like, I made a massive pivot from finance to sales, then carried with them for about two years until I moved down to Nashville and took my business full time.

Yeah, that's amazing. So I want to come back to the Muse and the work you're doing today, but I want to back up to this. To this. So you're working on Wall street, you're working 80 hours a week, and this guy literally introduces you to Jesus.

Yes. He wouldn't say that, but I would say, sure.

Right. But so I'm really curious, kind of how that played out. You talk about this guy showing up as a whole person.

Yeah.

What do you mean by that? Was there a relationship built there before there was an invitation of the gospel presented? Like, what did that look like?

Yeah, I think that he. I was very clear that he was a Christian. He would talk about, like, maybe going to church or he was in a community group. And I was like, what's that? You know, I had no idea. No context for that. So he would just talk about it as very. In a matter of fact, way, in the office. I remember that being the case. And then with me, we got along really well. And so he was just a friend. He was on my floor, and I was hearing about what was going on in his life with his friends, what he was doing on the weekend, and I was like, I want to do this. That sounds fun.

Yeah.

But honestly, he just kind of showed up and, like, you could see radiate the peace off of him. I would say he was very confident in himself, but, like, a quiet confidence. I'd experienced a lot of cocky confidence on Wall street, but he was just like, this. Here's something different about him. And he had this quiet confidence, and I just enjoyed being his friend. And so then it was just. The invite naturally happened because I was starting to, like, talk to him about life, and it kind of evolved from there.

Was he great at his job?

Yes, he was very good at his job. Now he's. I'm like, thinking back on it, I'm like, it's been a long time. But, yeah, he was very good at his job.

So I, like. I talk about this in. In Master of One, this book I'm releasing in January. This idea that, like, when we are masterful at our craft, people just want to be around us.

Yes. Like, I do agree.

Makes sense. Like, makes us winsome. I don't know of a better word than that. Right. So, yeah, it's being a whole person. It's being engaged in people's lives. But it's also just like being good at what you do and having that confidence. I like that. I like that term, quiet confidence.

He was not. He was not audacious. He wasn't like a braggart or anything like that. You just knew that he knew who he was and what he was doing was what he's supposed to be doing.

Yeah, I love that. So, all right. So you realize you're not great at finance.

Yeah, it was a terrible place to realize it. Not good at finance.

Okay. So you make a pivot into sales. So I'm curious about your state of mind in this transition. So you come to faith in Christ and now you're, like, looking. I mean, because if you'd say an investment banking, even if you weren't great at it, you would have made a heck of a living doing that work. Right.

But most people, quite frankly, in banking, a lot of it just. It's survival of the fit.

It's survival of the fit.

It really is.

Who can work 90 hours a week, the longest.

Yes. That's what it is.

Regardless of somewhat. Regardless of competence. Right. And you make it. But excellence was important to you.

It sounds like 100%. I was, like, always brought up on that notion of, you know, being from Pittsburgh. It's like you work really hard at the things that are in front of you. And I couldn't work any harder at that thing in banking. But I started to realize that there were things that I was pretty good at in, when I worked at the New York Stock Exchange that were not related to finance. And I was. Instead of trying to what I think a lot of people do and what I see with even just my clients, they try to fix the things that are their weaknesses. And while we need to be aware of our weaknesses and tweak them, I think there's huge merit in looking at things you're really, really good at. And in going all in on that. Yeah. And saying, like, oh, my gosh, God has gifted me in this way. This is not like something I'm bragging about. About myself. God has gifted me. It is my duty and responsibility to live that out with excellence. And I realized I was good at, like, giving the CEOs of these IPOing companies, like tours around the New York Stock Exchange. I was good at the Relational. Part of things. I was good at being in those sales meetings. I was good at thinking about creatively on marketing plans. Like, I got thrown in front of a camera one day and said, hey, can you report live from the trading folder? Like, so there were things that were much more creative that I wanted to focus on.

Yeah. So we haven't talked a lot about my next book, Master of One, but, like, this is the whole concept.

Yeah, I started it.

It's this. You know, I think, you know, developing your weaknesses is a really poor strategy. If we believe that our mandate as Christians is excellent in all things, for the glory of God. Right. Double down on what you're great at. Right. Double. Find the work that God has uniquely created you to do and focus on it intensely. So for you, it wasn't finance, it was more relational. That's, I'm assuming, what led you into sales. Is that right?

Yeah.

Talk about the pivot from there. I don't know that it's a pivot as much as it is a continuation of what you were good at. But talk about how you went from the Muse and New York Stock Exchange to the work you're doing today.

Yeah. So when I was at the Muse, I always kind of knew I wanted to own a business one day. I had no idea what it was gonna look like. And I was. I kept on. Actually. I had, like, a survey out I sent to my friends. I was such a nerd. I was like, what do you ask me for advice on? Like, what do you think I'm good at?

Interesting.

Yeah. Yeah. And. Cause I wanted to know what people thought was valuable, and I actually resisted it for a long time. Was career stuff. And I was like, I don't wanna be that person. I wanna be, like, I don't know, a fashion blogger. Those things have merit. But I do think that the Lord was like, I have a bigger. And since your story was rooted in coming to Faith on Wall street, and then, like, we're gonna make this a bigger picture, bigger thing. And I realized a lot of people were asking me questions about how I made so many. I had five or five years. I had four jobs at three different companies. So people were like, how did you do that? And so I just started teaching other people how to do it. And that kind of snowballed from one client to two clients to having all of my nooks and crannies and extra time filled up with this side hustle to finally. I was. The Lord gave me, like, the go ahead. It's finally time to Leave New York. And I was like, all right, this is do or die. We're going to try this thing. We're going to see what God has in store for me. And it led me to this place now where I'm helping predominantly mid to senior level corporate people switch jobs and grow their income potential solely through personal branding.

Yeah. So you describe yourself as a career strategist.

Yes.

Go deeper into what you just mentioned. What exactly do you do for your clients?

Yeah, so if a client is, you know, in a job right now, it's not typically. I typically don't work with a lot of people that are in between jobs. So people that are like, okay, I want to make a strategic move in my career for the next 10 years, 15 years. I kind of have an idea what I want to do, but I really don't know how to get from point A to point B. So it's getting them unstuck where they're currently stuck in their career and helping them navigate that pathway forward. I love it.

So give it. Give an example of that with one of your clients.

Yeah. So right now I have a client. She's awesome. She's a senior leader at a very well known company. I won't say the name, but she currently was. She was a little confused about what she wanted to do, if she wanted to stay in corporate or go and work for start her own consultancy with what she's been doing in her work. And so we created this plan where she realized within the first couple of weeks she thought she was going to try and find a new job. Actually she wants to start a consultancy and since we started working together, she's actually already have her first clients.

Yeah. Wow.

And starting to bring in money, quit her other job and is like moving forward in this thing, which she's really, really good at. She's really good at like launching and building organizations. She's not good at staying there for the long term and maintaining. So that's like one example. I have another client where she was a marketing leader and she knew she needed to get out of the current culture and situation that she was in and wanted to make a very smart pivot for what's gonna lead her for, you know, a full time position. And she ended up getting a CMO role where she like went up a level or two. And we just created the marketing materials around that. So a resume, LinkedIn, cover letter, personal brand, and we really just taught her how to tell her story better. Yeah, I think a lot of people don't know how to talk about themselves.

I think it's really interesting. All throughout the website you talk about like career strategy as like branding, like personal branding. I don't hear a lot of people talking in that langu, but I really like it a lot. I think it's really, really smart. Talk about why you use that sort of story driven, brand driven framework.

When I was coaching people and I've coached about 900 people one on one. That's not even like conferences and stuff like that. So I worked with a lot of people and what I realized is that every single person's career is kind of like its own business and that with just the right amount of marketing, you can get into any door that you really want to get into. And so I've seen this with clients who were stuck, stuck, stuck and couldn't get the deal closed. And we go through an interview prep session and they just learn how to talk about themselves differently in a way that's relevant for the employer that's listening. It differentiates them, it makes them excited about what they're doing again and it gives them hope that they actually can make a change in their life. And so it's really about helping. There's thousands of candidates that apply for one job. Right. And so how do you like differentiate yourself in the mix of it? Well, you use your own personality, your own story, your own things that you are strengths and relate that to what the company really cares about.

I've thought a lot about this idea of like careers narrative in the past. Like I remember, alright, so back in 2016, I don't think I've ever talked about this publicly. But back in, back in 2016, I had this very lucrative consulting practice. I was working with Early Stage Ventures, helping entrepreneurs grow their businesses. And I got an offer from one of my clients, threshold360, where I'm still chairman of the board, to come on board a CEO. And I was, I was going through the thought process, trying to figure out whether or not I wanted to do it. And one of my best friends and I had a conversation and he gave some really interesting advice. He's like, you know what if you stayed in your consultancy, maybe you do it for another five years, another 10 years, but the narrative doesn't really develop. Like, sure, you'll help more clients, you'll have different clients, but taking on, you know, taking over as the second CEO for this tech startup, bringing it to market, doing something you haven't done in your career before, it turns the page, you start a new chapter and it moves the narrative of your career forward. I think that's like, a really interesting way to think about career. Right. Is like, is it the story you're able to tell in the narrative arc? So for you, for your clients, what are the. What are the tools that you give them to help kind of craft that brand story, craft that narrative?

I think the biggest thing that I do with every single one of my clients that I find is the most helpful is answering the question, tell me about yourself.

Yeah.

Because that is the root of what we put in your resume. How you tell your story at networking parties, how you tell your story when you are talking, talking to a mentor, how you tell your story whenever you are in an interview. That's why I named my podcast your career story, because I believe that to be such an important piece where people are like, oh, well, I started here, and then I went here, and then I went. That's not the way to answer that. That's not the. That's not the fullness of the picture of who you are and what you've been able to accomplish. And so that is the biggest thing is helping them solidify what is the answer to that simple question. And then from there, we really delve into and understand, like, what do you actually want in your career and how does that reflect into your life? Because we've learned, and I think society talks about this, but I definitely talk to my clients about this. What happens at work doesn't stay at work. It goes home. Same thing happens at home goes into work. And so for us to not think about showing up as whole people, both of those things have to correlate. Both those things have to relate. And so if your work that you're doing does not affect the lifestyle that you envision for yourself, we have to figure out how to make that marry.

You mentioned doing this yourself when you were trying to figure out what was next in your career. I'm curious if you recommend that clients do this, but, like, surveying your friends, surveying those closest to you to say, hey, what am I good at? Right. This is what I'm interested in, but what am I actually good at? Do you recommend the clients do that?

100%. I actually think that you should ask people that are your co workers. Be like, this is a really awkward question, but I'm trying to just take stock of, like, what are my skills? What are the things that I. That people think that is really valuable? And what do I enjoy doing and marrying those things together? What do you feel like I'm really good at it's so awkward, but it's so helpful if you actually get an answer out of somebody.

Yeah.

So formal reviews don't really work for that, honestly.

Why not?

I don't feel like people are. I don't feel like managers are going to be as truthful and honest and they're very more project mindset oriented as much as they want to. Maybe a leader maybe wants to bring out the skill set of their individual. That doesn't always happen. And so sometimes you have to be your own career advocate. And the best way to do that is put a step forward and ask the question.

Yeah, I talk a lot about this in Master of One. So, you know, kind of the, the path to mastery as I see it. Right. Is step one, exploring your options. Step two, making a choice at some point in your career saying, this is the thing I'm doubling down on and I'm going to be world class after the glory of God and the good of others. Step three is what you are going to eliminate from your life and your commitments that say no to. And step four is mastery. Right. The keys to mastery and what, what makes anyone world class at what they do. But in that first step in that experimentation, exploration stage, I think a lot of people think that means just inward seeking. Right. So asking myself, what do I love to do? What do I want to do? But I think there's a lot of biblical wisdom and saying, no, humble yourself. Work is not primarily about your happiness. It's about service to others. And the only way to figure out what you're good at in serving others is asking other people. Right. Like, what in the world am I good at? So I love that a lot. So I want to go back somewhat to your story. So you say on your website that because of your salvation experience, because you met Jesus on Wall street, which is bizarre. You are, quote, so passionate about people not having to be in ministry to minister to others. Yes, Preach.

I will preach myself on that.

So it's really not a question. It's an invitation for you to get on your soapbox and talk about and encourage our listeners to that.

Yeah, I think there's a lot. And I didn't experience this because I didn't grow up in a southern Christian world. And so I think there was a lot of learning how. I think a lot of Christians, specifically in the south, that's a generalization. But would approach work and vocation. Vocation. We are all called. There's like what the Great Commission, right. We're all called to go out and make Disciples in every area of our life. And God cares about every area of our life. So why would our work be no different? I think so many Christians separate their Sundays from their Mondays and leave Jesus in the parking lot at 9am and pick him up at 5pm and there's like this disconnect where we don't see a lot of that. There's less sermons about it. I mean there's so many other reasons that I could say that. But at the end of the day, you do not know what showing up to work as a whole person will do for the other people around you. Like that gentleman had no idea that he was going to impact the whole trajectory of my whole future life, right? And it's not going to somebody and beating a Bible over their head or anything like that. It's showing up to work as a whole person, being excellent in your work. And just, I think there's a large part of community also that matters in that. And that's where you are. Your ministry is wherever you are. And if that means you're in accounting and you are doing closing, you're closing the books, you are much in ministry as somebody who is a youth minister. It is the exact same thing in God's currency. And so many of us are saying, well, that's not really my thing. My volunteering is really where I'm ministering to people. No, you are ministering with every email you send, with every interaction you have with the coworker with how you take seriously your work or not. Like your work is a huge, huge portion to that. And I just, I. My big prayer is that more people would start to realize that. Because I think if more people started bringing their faith into work, what that would mean for our economy, for the community, for our relationships with internally in our family and with our co workers and then finally for the kingdom.

So I promise Jenna and I did not swap notes prior to this. But yes, she's reading the script of this, of this whole show. This is what we love talking about here. I think about this a lot. I pray about this a lot. What is that vision? If every Christian deeply understood that their work mattered, was a means of ministry, was a means of making disciples, what would the world look like?

I believe that we're all designed, we all want to have purpose. And I believe vocation is just one of the ways that God allows that to happen for us. And so if people actually woke up every day excited to go to work because of not just like some self actualization or the salary we're going to get or the promotions that we're going to receive, which, by the way, I have my own idols with that. So it's something I'm continually working through. But if we actually woke up with a servant heart for that and for the people that we experience on a day to day basis, what that would actually mean, like that is literally going out into the mission field every single day and showing up to do the work that God has in front of you. And what a privilege and an honor it is to use the gifts that God has given to me. I didn't do anything for these. Maybe I'm nurturing them and becoming more excellent in them, but God is the one who's gifted me to them. So it would be an insult to the Creator for me not to celebrate them and to. And enact in them.

Yeah. I can't remember if I've mentioned this on the podcast before, but there's a sermon that really significantly influenced my life. Probably, I don't know, four or five years ago. This guy named Dr. Kenan Vaughn, he's this PCA pastor in Memphis.

Okay, I need to listen.

Brilliant. But he pointed out that in Jesus command to go and make disciples. The word go, the Greek word for go is what's called an aorist tense passive participle.

Okay, please unpack.

Yeah, we're getting very. We're getting real nerdy now. Yeah, it's an heiress tense passive participle. Basically what he says is that go was not the command, the going was assumed. So essentially what Jesus is saying is having gone from here, turn men into disciples. And Vaughn points out that Jesus didn't go more than 200 miles away from his hometown. And he's the greatest disciple maker of all time. It's not about how far you go. It's about what you are doing as you go throughout your daily life as you go to work tomorrow.

I'm a huge fan of the locals, the local piece. I think a lot of us think globally and that's awesome and amazing and we need that. But so many of us miss the local.

Yeah.

So much. So many of us miss the local of what's happening in our own lives, in our own circles. It's small. It's okay if it's small.

Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. So I'm curious for you. So you got a small team around you. I'm sure you're thinking about how to make disciples at work, but really you're. I mean, you're creating disciples in the sense that you've worked with 900 individual clients who are now going out into the world. And not all these clients are Christians. Right.

Majority of them are actually not.

Yeah, I believe it. So how do you think about your faith influencing your specific work today? Like, what motivates you in this business that you're building now?

Yeah, I think the biggest thing for me is there's a lot of heart transformation that goes on in this. So it's not just giving you a strategy and helping you go. It's also giving you a strategy and helping you understand how your inner dialogue affects what happens outwardly. For a lot of my clients. So a lot of my clients will come to me and their confidence is not there. Like they don't think they're really good at something. And we. There's a lot of that building up. So I consider myself ministering to clients on a one on one basis. And I've actually been a sounding board for some people that have had questions about their faith, which has been a really, really cool experience. That's not something I've been like, hey, do you want to talk about faith?

Right.

So I think for me, that's a huge, huge part of it. And then also at the same time it's, I want to get really, really good at the work that I'm doing. So I'm currently kind of moving away from a certain business model, moving into another way to kind of of move my business so that I can kind of reach more people. But then also at the same time do that work really, really well. Because I feel like there has been. When you're growing a business, it's very easy to get spread really thin. And I found that for the past year, my work life balance has not been there. My idols have shown up quite loudly and I've just been reevaluating what am I really good at, Lord? And just asking that question again, like, what am I really good at? What do I need to be more doing? And you're going to have to. I make this comment a lot of times to. Out of my followership or whatever, I say that my job is not my provider. God is. And so if I really trusted that and believe that, what would I actually do in my career? And what are the things that I'm really good at? How do I keep doing more of that and let God take care of the money?

Yeah. So when I, when I made the decision to focus on writing and producing this content full time, you know, I've always said my one thing is actually pretty Broad. Like, I am a talented entrepreneur. I'm talented at bringing new products to market and meeting needs in the market. And when I was running threshold360 and writing a book at the same time, I still saw that as one thing. I was creating new products, I was bringing them to market. But I made the choice to get even more focused and even more nuanced in my one thing. But now that I'm doing this work full time, I'm finding myself in the same spot. I'm spreading myself too thin across. Even though it's all focused under bringing out content for the good of you all who are listening, I'm still spreading myself too thin. So I think it's a, I think that question of what's my one thing? And how do I get more focused on the work I believe God's called me to do? I think we, I don't think we ever stop asking.

I think if we stop asking it, then we're probably doing it wrong.

Yeah, I, I, I, I think so too. I think so too. For those of you who subscribe to my weekly Faith and Work Devotional, you know, I recently did a series titled the Meaning of Work. So I'm really curious to get your take on this, Jenna. So the hypothesis is that we all know the Data. Gallup says 70% of Americans are disengaged from their jobs.

So sad.

It's so depressing.

That's another reason why I do what I do. I'm like, that needs to be a up.

It's so depressing. And everybody has their theories as to why. Right? Why we, why 70% of the world seems to hate their jobs. By the way, the number globally is 80%, which isn't surprising. That's higher other places. So my hypothesis that ultimately Most of that 70% is a result of falling on one of two extreme ends of the spectrum of what we believe the meaning of work to be, right? So either on the far left end of the spectrum, we expect far too little meaning from our work. So I think this is true with my parents generation. So I went to work to get a paycheck so that I can move on to the more meaningful things in life, right? Family, church, whatever it was. But I think millennials, myself included, fall on the opposite end of the spectrum of expecting far too much meaning in our work. We no longer look to the family or to church for this cosmic meaning and satisfaction in our lives. We look to our work. So I'm curious to hear how you help your clients think about the meaning of work, not expecting too little meaningful work, but also not expecting too much. Do you have those conversations?

We do typically in the beginning, it's usually when we're starting to get clarity of what that person wants to do next. It's kind of like, what does work mean to you? And most people have never asked that question to themselves before because, you know, you get a degree, you move on, go to career, and you work up the corporate ladder hoping that you're on the right ladder. And I don't think enough people ask the question of like, what does work mean to me? And my job is kind of someone who's coaching someone through this, never to judge whatever they're saying. It's just.

Or impose your.

Exactly. It's just to kind of open up the conversation to allow them to hear for themselves. Is that actually what you want? Right. Like, what is work looking like for you right now? Okay, well, based off of the way that you are scheduling yourself, based off your no time, you are making this thing like the thing, and it's gonna disappoint you every single time. Do you really wanna do that? Really wanna be your narrative? And, you know, that's the conversation that I'm often having with clients. It's a conversation I'm having with myself. Yeah, it's this exact same conversation that I'm constantly. Actually, it's, you know, God's quite humorous in that I'll have a client that's like, probably dealing with the things that I'm dealing with. And it's like a mirror in my face from like, oh, that's a good point. I'm gonna receive that from myself. But I think it's just opening up that conversation of asking them the question, what does work mean to you? Because most people don't ask it.

Do you find that your non Christian clients buy that premise that work will never ultimately satisfy?

I think that they understand that narrative very much so once they start to realize it's not that satisfying them now. And I mean, I work with people that are making multiple six figures that are VP level and it's not really cutting it. And so I always talk about the. I give them an analogy. I heard this comedian, he's actually a Christian comedian, John Crist. I don't know if you're familiar with him. I listened to a podcast that he was on and he said, I always had these goals, like, I want to be on the Tonight show or something like that. And then, you know, or I would wanted to do this, I wanted to do that. Well, when I reached those things, I realized, what if I only get to the Tonight Show? That that's not it. That that's not the thing. That I made it, and that's not the thing. And that resonated so deeply with me. And I kind of tell that story to my clients and I say, well, what is the thing for you? Like, you felt like you would have made it and you haven't made it. Maybe this is a little bit too. Too much weight here.

Yeah.

So.

So your work today, you're helping people find new jobs. Right. Find that next step within their career. So. So I'm curious what advice you have to the people listening to this episode right now who are faithfully following after Jesus Christ, which is so fun that.

We get to talk about.

I know. I love it. I love it. Who love Jesus. Maybe they don't love their work. Maybe they're looking for what's next. What advice do you have for them for how to be faithful to the job they have today and faithful to the ministry of excellence while also looking for what's next and being a good steward of the gifts God has given them.

I think it's not only biblical, but it's also just a smart career move to be excellent, what you're doing. So I. I think there's a lot of people that are out there, and I totally understand that. I was that person. Right. I switched my jobs a lot. So that's. There's me too. No, no shame in that.

No shame in that game.

No shame in that game at all whatsoever. But I feel like for myself, when I was what I tell other people when they're like, in a job where they can't really get out yet. I think about it similar to how what I was in New York City and I did not want to be in New York City, but I knew God had me there, and I was kind of felt stuck there and I felt frustrated. But my whole thing was, how do I get the most from this experience? What's God trying to teach me? And then also, how can I give out in this experience? So if you're in a job right now and you're just feeling like this is not the place for me. I'm not using my gifts, I'm not using my talents. What if using your gifts and talents just look like showing up at work and loving on your co worker who's going through a divorce? What if showing up for work and just meaning like you pray for your leaders on the way to work? What if it Means, like, you just invite someone into your home instead of trying to separate work from life too much. Like, it could look very different. It could add a relational element to it, even if we're not maybe using our gifts and talents in this present moment.

So you mentioned working 80 hours a week. I've been there before.

So fun.

So, yeah. Such a blast. What do your days look like today? Like, I'm really curious. Like, what is a typical day from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to bed? What does that routine look like for you now?

The big thing for me is I spend a lot of my time now in this direction of taking my business is writing. There's a lot of my. I love writing. I'm realizing that God has gifted me in that way, and so I need to be doing more of that. And so a lot of my days are now wrapped up in writing and dealing and not dealing with clients, serving clients. Right. And working with clients and helping them. So that's a large portion of my day. But honestly, I feel like I'm most thriving. And I'm not always good at doing this. I'm not really been good at doing this for the past couple months. But my most ideal day would be getting up early, probably going for a walk, doing something active while listening to worship music, getting in the shower, putting on the coffee mug, and then sitting down for a little bit of quiet time. And that could look like journaling. It could be reading my Bible. It could be reading your devotional. It could be doing any of the things, but just having that small space. And I think for a long time, I thought that I had to do, like, an hour and, like, check it off my list.

Right, right.

And this, like, expectation. Right. But really, it could just, like, look like jotting down some, like, hey, Lord, this is what's on my heart today. This is what I'm praying for. And these are the people and I'm praying for. I really try to make it a rhythm to pray for my clients. And so the people that I know that I'm going to interact with in the day, like, I pray for them before I even interact with them. And so those are kind of the small rhythms in the morning that get me going. And then I really try to end my day. I've been toying with, like, what time of day do I leave? Do you read the book Rest?

No.

Oh, my gosh, it's so good. You need to read this book. I forget his name. Seems Alex something. I will send it to you afterwards.

Rest by Alex.

Rest by Alex. It's a blue cover. I can see it right now. Do you know Rebecca? She recommended it. And so I've, like, been preaching it to everybody. I think it's a really great. It talks about, like, the rhythms of the most creative people. Yeah, and the rhythms of most creative people is they usually end their workday, really, by 12.

Yeah.

And like, their afternoons are free. That doesn't really fully work for me. So I've been trying to adapt that for myself. But I'd say my days end about like, 3, 3, 4, 5, depending on the day.

Yeah.

So it's a lot of writing.

How do you rest? Right. So three o', clock, you're done. Four o', clock, you're done. What does rest look like for you?

Yeah, I've been exploring that, too. Someone asked me the other day, what do I do for fun. And I looked at her and I was like, fun. Because my business was fun when I started it out. It was fun for me, and it still is fun for me. And so that for me is like, I love exploring new ideas, but I'm realizing that my creativity is not at its fullest potential if I'm not incorporating art into my life. And so for me, art is a huge catalyst. I was musical theater kid growing up. Yeah. Yeah. I used to be able to sing. Don't ask me to sing.

Okay, we've got lots to talk about then. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, I was on the stage. I guess it makes sense now. So I think for me, it's. I'm actually starting to read more fiction books now. I'm starting to read not just books. That's gonna help move my business forward or my Christian life forward. Like, I'm moving things around. I'm actually doing more things with my hands. So I'm trying to try and take a calligraphy class. Like, I'm cooking more. Like, there are things that I feel like I was valuing more. So. And that rest really looks like an act of rest for me. It doesn't look like taking a nap. It's like more of a posture and, like, really allowing myself to be creative.

There's a lot of wisdom in that. Like, I'm a big fan of this active rest. Like, I think I've talked about on the podcast before, like, breaks in between writing for me are usually washing dishes or, like, doing laundry. Yeah, I love washing dishes. Yeah, I'm like, really weird. It's a very weird thing. But I love. I love it. Since I. Since I've been Working at home over the last couple of months. But yeah, I'm not great at resting at the end of the day. And part of this is I've got young kids. Right. So rest for me is playing with them, which is. Which is restless for sure and helps make creative connections. But yeah, there's. There's so much value. Like Lewis. CS Lewis was very famous for, you know, in the afternoons taking a very long walk.

Yeah. They talk about him in the book.

Do they?

Yeah, I think they do.

Yeah. He would. He would have these long breaks in the afternoon where he would take a walk from the kilns where he lived. And it's a pretty far away from there to the eagle and child, the pup that they used to hang out at. So yeah, there's a lot of wisdom there there. So. And by the way, let me follow up on the quiet time comments. You may. You said something I think is really true. I think a lot of people have these like huge expectations for what a quiet time has to look like. That it has to be 30 minutes, that it has to be an hour. The Lord doesn't command that of us. Right. So for you, do you find when you only have 15 minutes to sit down and pray and write scripture that that is centering for you? Is that enough time to center you for your day?

Actually, like timed it this morning. Yeah, I was exploring. I've been trying to toy with different things and really feel that. And I was listening to a sermon while I was getting ready and moving around. So that was part of it. But the actual sit down time was probably only 15 minutes. Yeah, it was only 15 minutes. Not only, but it was 15 minutes. And I felt like rejuvenated. I felt centered. I was like, okay, now I can tackle my inbox.

Yeah.

For Monday.

Yeah. So a random question. Yeah, I just, I just remembered this after reading your website. You're an enneagram3.

Oh yeah. Hardcore, like Harry Potter style Sorting Hat just barely touches my head. Enneagram3.

So I'm the same way. And I feel like if I'm in Nashville, I have to ask about your Enneagram number.

Yes. It's a very.

You guys are very cultish about this.

Yes. It's very funny. When I moved here, I was like, is this like a dating app I need to know about?

I'm searching for Enneagram in the App Store. I cannot find it. Does not compute. I'm the same way. I started coming up here more. I'm like, I guess I need to study up on this. You guys are freakishly cultish about this.

Yeah.

So here's my question, though. So we're both performers.

Yes.

Right. That's our Enneagram number, which, by the way, is, like, one of the worst numbers to be. Like, there's so much baggage.

I love being a three.

I like it, too, obviously, but there's a lot of baggage that comes with that. What do you think drives you to be a performer? Like, have you always had that urge? Like, what? Yeah.

I mean, how long do you want to talk for now? Go for it. I mean, I was definitely a performer as a young kid. My parents would tell you that I would. Which is also ironic because my dad and I have had a conversation. Mom had a conversation. After the finance days of. I remember my dad saying to me, we should have. Probably should have pushed you more in the creative direction, because, like, as a kid, I was always putting on skits. I created a. Which is funny. I have a podcast now, but I create, like, television shows, and I would make my sister be, like, one of the guests, most likely a boy. And I was just always creating something. I had a quote book when I was a kid. Like, what kid has a quote?

I love it.

I love it. So I think that for me, I for sure always was performing. It was always a part of. Part of who I was. And it became such an identity portion, which was why it was so difficult being in investment banking, because that was such a huge part of my identity. And that's why I think, why I felt this need to look a certain way physically. That's why my eating disorder kind of went its way. Hairy way. And then also just in my job, and I have to be very careful not to let that. That take over in this new season of life. It's been something I'm working through and always working through.

Yeah, I think it's like the ultimate battle of threes. Right. For me, like, earlier in my career, failure wasn't an option because I wouldn't have a self I was so concerned about. The only thing I cared about was how others perceived me. Totally right. Like that. That is. That is like the prime character. It's like a three. And so, yeah, but, you know, by the grace of God, I think the Lord's doing a work on that in my heart and has been for years, but I think it's always gonna be a struggle. I think that's one thing I've come to accept is, sure, okay, this is my lot in life. I'm gonna always have to battle against this. And the best way to do that is to have conversations like these. Right. With other people who share these gospel truths and say, hey, regardless of how many downloads the Career Story podcast gets, it doesn't matter. You are loved, you are worthy, because Jesus says you are worthy.

Can I tell you what I do for goals now? Because I'm a three and I know, like, if I look at. I know metrics are important. I put that on somebody else because I give myself projects and things that I want to accomplish. Like I want to write a book by this time or I want loose, loose guidelines. I say I have a five year plan, but I'm nimble. And I feel like that has given me a lot of freedom. So I don't have, like, I need to make X amount of dollars. And maybe that's wrong, but for me and my sanity, be. I do not do that because I believe that the Lord's going to give me the money that I need or how many downloads I need, that he's got the numbers taken care of, that I just need to keep on moving in the right direction.

So you're more focused on. I feel the Lord calling me to do this, to create this 100% and not paying attention as much. The results.

Yeah.

Interesting.

Yeah. I try not to live so much in the results. It's hard not to, of course, because we want to be like that. But I found that the best things that happen in my life never happen when I'm white knuckling it down a roller coaster. It's when I have it open hands. And so that is very, very true in my career. I made a lot of decisions in my career that never made sense to the outside. I. Yeah, but it made sense because I had a piece about it. And so that's. I just go with pieces. That's my career mantra. Go where the pieces. Interesting.

I'm gonna have to. I'm gonna have to chew on that.

Yeah.

And come back to that. I don't. I don't know that I can do that.

Yeah. I had to pass it off to somebody else because I want to make sure that I'm being wise for my business and being strategic. Of course. But I. It's a marriage of the two.

Yeah.

I pay much less weight on the metrics.

Interesting. I love that. All right, so three questions I love to ask every guest. First one, which books do you recommend the most or buy the most for other people?

I have bought Love does by Bob Goff for a zillion people. I've also Bought anything. Jenny Allen, she's like my, like, crush. I just love her book. Changed my life, I think was a huge, huge impetus in my kind of change in my faith. Those two. And then from a more like business career oriented. I always buy designing your life. Yeah, I buy that for pretty much every single one of my clients that go through my one on one program.

I love it. What one person would you most like to hear on this show talking about how their faith influences their work?

Okay, can I give you two people?

Yeah, give me all the people. I mean. Yeah.

Okay. Kathie Lee Gifford.

Really?

I just think she's very fascinating because she's very vocal about her faith on her show in a very, like, that's not easy to do. So I'm just fascinated about how she gets the confidence and the gumption to do that and how she, like, incorporates that. And then Jason Kennedy. So these are both entertainment people.

I don't know who.

Jason. Jason Kennedy. He was on E. News. Okay, so how does he, like, how does he rationalize that world, the Hollywood world? Because he's very public about his faith. He's best friends with a lot of very famous pastors. He's very public about his faith in Jesus. The whole story of how he met his wife, it's crazy. So I would be really interested to hear his story of how faith at work meshes together. Yeah, I think he had a Bible study in Hollywood. Like, he's just, like, he's just very fascinating. I think he's hilarious, too.

So those are really good answers.

Yes. Yeah.

Okay, great. I love it. By the way, where's Kathie Lee Gifford?

She lives here now.

She's in Nashville.

That's what I'm telling you. Everyone lives here.

What is the chance that we could get Kathie Lee in 24 hours notice on the show. But we should try. We should try. Let's track her down. And Jason's in New York, I'm assuming?

No, I think he's in California.

California. Okay, great. All right. What one piece of advice would you give somebody who, like you, is pursuing mastery of their craft, whatever that vocation might be? Right. But they believe in the call to mastery. They believe that they are called to do masterful work for the glory of God and the good of others. What one piece of advice would you leave them with?

Patience is a virtue. It's not gonna happen overnight. Mastery doesn't happen when with one client, with one project you work on, with one job that you have, it's a lifetime of achievements and a lifetime of, like, small pivot turns to the right. And so having the patience to live that out, I think is such a huge, huge. It's a hard thing to do. But if you're able to do it, that's where mastery happens.

One of my favorite quotes of all time is Warren Buffett. You probably know this, was asked, was asked, you know, hey, Warren, your investment strategy is, like, super simple. Why doesn't. Why isn't everybody else as wealthy as Warren Buffett? And he said, nobody wants to get rich slow, right? And there, there's so much, so much wisdom there. Hey, Jenna, I want to commend you for the work you are doing. I just thank you so much for sharing your testimony so public publicly. Thank you for your commitment to the integration of faith in the workplace, and thank you for serving the Lord by helping others find and focus on the work that they were created to do for the glory of God and the good of others. Genoveviano, a masterful career strategist. Just a masterful professional. If you have any questions about your career or need some guidance on your next career move, I cannot recommend Jenna highly enough. You can find her@jennaviviano.com that is. You want to spell that one for me?

Yeah. So J, E, N, a. So it's 1N, and then Viviano is V, I, V, I, A, N, O. Yeah.

Jenna, thanks for hanging out.

Thanks so much.

I'm such a big fan of Jenna Viviano. I hope you guys enjoyed that episode as much as I did. Hope you enjoyed that conversation. Hey, if you're enjoying the Call to Mastery, make sure you subscribe to the podcast podcast wherever you listen to podcasts so you never miss an episode in the future. And if you're already subscribed, do me a huge favor. Take 30 seconds and go review the podcast. If you have no idea how to do either of those things, go to jordanraynor.com podcast, where we've made it really easy for you to do. Hey, before you go, I've got another shorter conversation I want to share with you all. As you guys know, I'm an avid reader, and a few months ago, I started shaking sharing with you all some of the books that I've added to my personal reading list. I've been sharing these recommendations in my weekly devotional email, which if you don't receive, you could sign up right now for free@jordanraynor.com and I recently sat down with the author of one of the books I've added to my reading list. Her name is Deborah Murkey, and she wrote this really interesting book called Murder, Motherhood, and Miraculous Grace. And, you know, listen, listen. Most of what I read is directly applicable to my work. Most of what I'm reading is professional developments. But sometimes I want a break, right? I want a break. I just want to pick up a great story, particularly stories that have a redemptive edge that will help me grow in my walk with Jesus Christ. And that's why I've added Murder, Motherhood, and Miraculous Grace to my reading list. I actually just got it in the mail and started reading it. And this is one of a few tragic stories I've ever heard. But it's a story ultimately of forgiveness and grace and obedience. I don't want to give away too much because I sat down with the book's author, Deborah Murky, to answer three questions about the book for you. So here's my conversation with Deborah Murky. Deborah, thank you so much for joining me. I was just telling you I just got the book Murder, Mother and Miraculous Grace in the mail, and my wife and I were sitting down and reading the jacket and started reading the introduction. I'm like, this is going to be a great book. So tell our audience. What is this book about? This is your memoir, right? So give us a snapshot of what this book is all about.

Well, the book is about a little more than 20 years ago. My husband and I were foster parents, and we had fostered close to 140 children at that time. Plus, we had our own five children. And, you know, we felt God was calling us to do this, to minister to these children, to help them and to minister to their parents when we were allowed to. But this particular family had one targeted child that came to us, and we were able to take the whole family of five and have them for almost a year. And one of the children I was very, very concerned about because I knew that the mother really targeted her as far as abuse. And the court suddenly sent them home, home with no real warning. And I was very afraid for her safety and her welfare and kept calling dfs, kept calling people to see, have you seen this child since they've gone home? The kids have gone home. And I went and checked on them every once in a while and just didn't see the child and just felt something was extremely wrong. So the story is partly about just the lack of control we really have in other people's lives and in many of the. Even the. The organizations in our community that really oversee all of us. And my Gut feeling saying that there was something wrong was very correct. And then we found out a year afterwards, just the devastating situation that this child's life was taken. So the story is much about not only fostering and all the things are involved with that, but also walking through issues of forgiveness and resentment and bitterness and redemption. And so that's what really had to take place the 20 years following.

Wow. So the child's life is taken. How old was the child at that time?

She was five.

Five years old. Oh, my goodness. And so the book really tells your story of forgiving that mother. And, I mean, I haven't. I obviously haven't gotten to this place in the book. I'm looking forward to it, but I assume there's hopefully some redemption here. Hopefully. So is there some redemptive aspect of the story that we can look forward to?

Absolutely, there is. And, you know, part of this is I felt God was putting the pressure on me to write this for many, many years, but I just didn't know where to begin. And plus, I was still walking through it. So I started to realize that in our community, even 20 years later, there is still suffering and hurt and bitterness concerning this story. And that part of the reason of writing this too, was to bring healing not only to my community, but this is something that happens all over our country, all over the world. And how do we walk through it when we are, in a sense, either part of it or even the outsider looking in? How do we deal with it?

Yeah. Hey, Deborah, who's this book for?

This book is for really a number of people, but I believe for people who have been seriously hurt or wounded by someone else, you know, if a child dies, I just recently had a granddaughter, five years old, pass away two weeks ago from cancer. And, you know, we may wrestle with God over that, but you don't have an individual to blame other than God. And so there are many crimes against people, and so we can blame that person and carry bitterness against them and point the finger at them and pour all our bitterness out on them. This book is really for people who wrestle with that and just need to find healing in their own heart and forgiveness and redemption. Because we're not free. As long as we're carrying bitterness and unforgiveness, we are not free. So this is for those who have suffered in any way that they have had something done against them that was out of their control and they were seriously hurt or wounded by it.

So you're in the middle of promoting this new book, and your granddaughter passed away and you're literally forced to live out the principles of this book. That's got to be, that's got to keep you honest right as, as you go about talking about these topics. And I'll tell you what, I will certainly commit to praying for you and your family with regards to that. So. So, Deborah, we talked a little bit about this before we started recording. But the people listening to this show, listening to the call to mastery, they are ambitious Christian professionals. They're ambitious not for their own fame and fortune, they're really ambitious for how their work can glorify God and love neighbor as self. And these people, myself included, read mostly business books, read professional development. But what about a story like, like this? Can that type of individual take away from this book?

Well, I'm so glad you asked that question because. And throughout this story, there are a number of professional, either organizations, you know, or even businesses that are involved. There's the law enforcement is involved, the social services involved, even the schools are involved. And I was the director of Crisis Pregnancy center at the time. So we touched the whole community as a well known organization in town. So there's a lot of professionals that are involved throughout this story. And I believe that part of my heart is, is for these professionals. We put so much emphasis on them thinking they know all, they should see all, they should be able to handle everything well, because after all, they're either trained, you know, educated, or have had experience in all of these different realms. And so we put a lot of pressure on them. My hope is that professionals will stop and looking at this book, say, don't fall back on just your experience or just your education or a diploma or a title. Pay attention. Pay attention to what's going on around you. Pay attention when there are people that truly need help and are seeking you for that help, are seeking you for some serious information and advice that could really help their life. For people that are hurting, sometimes we just get too caught up in the professionalism of our job.

Yeah, I love that. And I'm sure after reading this book, there'll also be this deep seated belief that all of our work matters. Even if we're in, I mean, certainly if we're in law enforcement, if we're in dcf, we're in the system. Our work matters. We were called to be salt and light in this world and we're called to be competent and excellent at what we do.

Absolutely.

I love it. Deborah, thank you for writing this book. I know the story started 20 or so years ago and I'M sure it was not an easy book to write. I'm sure as you're promoting it right now, now, it's not an easy book to market given what you're going through personally. So thank you for writing it, thank you for sharing this message with the world, and thank you for sharing a little bit about the book with our audience today.

Well, thank you for wanting to visit with me. I appreciate it so much.

What an incredible story of forgiveness, of grace. Thank you so much, Deborah, for joining me for that conversation. The book is Murder, Motherhood and Miraculous Grace, and it just came out yesterday, so you can go pick out a copy wherever books are sold. Hey, that's it for today's episode Again, if you're enjoying the Call to Mastery, make sure you subscribe. So click the subscribe button on Apple, click the Follow button on Spotify, wherever you listen to podcasts. If you're already subscribed, do me a huge favor and just take a second to review the podcast. That's the best way that we can help get this content in the hands or ears, I guess, of more listeners. So hope you guys enjoyed this episode as much as I did. Thank you so much for listening to the Call to Mastery. I'll see you next week.