Jena Viviano Dunay (Founder of Recruit the Employer)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back guarantee on this book. I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me, right. I know this is a very different biography. What is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right? So that's the first reason this is a risk and I'm gonna de risk this book for you. Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended. End quote. But here's the thing. In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5meerchristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all the pre order bonuses listed on 5merechristians.com and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5merechristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians podcast. Hi, I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as artists Oil rig workers and concierges. That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to my good friend Jenna Viviano Dunay, a brilliant former executive at Citi, the New York Stock Exchange, and the museum, currently doing brilliant work through Recruit the Employer. Helping companies fire their neighbors as themselves. Jen and I went deep on five things Christian leaders can do to fire their neighbors as themselves. We talked about the spiritual and business benefits of investing in employees after you lay them off. We also talked about the sign that I recently hung in my podcast studio to help me stop working like an orphan. You're not going to want to miss this episode with my friend Jenna Viviano Duna. Jenna, welcome back to the Mere Christians Podcast.

Thank you for having me back. I know it's been quite a few years. I think I was one of the early, early guests way back when, when you started this, I think you were.

Episode like, I, I don't know, number five or six. I remember because I recorded that first batch in Franklin. We actually did your interview in Franklin in that cool little studio near downtown. All right, so you've had a busy five years. You're married, you got a daughter. How would you describe the last five years?

Beautifully chaotic, I would say. Yeah. I think when we first chatted, I had just met my husband, I think.

Okay.

And we were starting to date. And yeah, since then we got married in 2020, which was like the worst year to get married. We got remarried again in 2021 in front of everybody, and then we had a daughter in 2023, and I'm actually pregnant with our second. So, you know, nothing like, you know a lot of things in a short period of time.

Yeah, I love it. Which, by the way, we're not going to get into Jenna's backstory today and how she met Jesus on Wall street. But you have to hear that story, listener. So go back and find it. I think it's episode number six, something like that. We'll try to put a link there in the show notes, but. All right, so, hey, you actually put your business on hold for a couple of years.

Right?

Right. So you've had this recruit the employer brand for a while. Yeah, you put it on pause. Why take us inside of that decision?

Yeah. So it was 2020 and I was just tired, Jordan. I was really exhausted. You know, my business before, I was doing one on one career coaching, so I was helping people navigate the job search journey. I traditionally work with people that were doing strategic career moves. Well, everything blew up in 2020. And everyone was getting laid off. And. And I think there was this combination of feeling very exposed online because my business was very much my face, me as the brand. And. And my identity was so wrapped up in the success or failure of a month, like financially. And I was just tired. And I had been journaling. I said, lord, I don't think this is what I'm supposed to be doing long term. And so I've been praying for something else. I never thought I would go in house and work for somebody again. But actually it's crazy story. I was journaling in the summer and the words generational wealth just like came up on my page and I was like, that's really weird. Maybe the Lord's gonna bless me.

That's what I thought. Right, right. Maybe I'm getting some inheritance.

Exactly.

That I wasn't aware of.

Yeah, yeah. Fast forward many months later, I was sitting with my mentor and her husband at dinner and he asked me how business was going. And I made the joke. I said, oh, Steve, I'm just so sick of myself. I'm sick of being online. I'm sick of myself. And he said, well, I know this gentleman, he owns a multifamily client office and they're looking for someone that kind of has your weird set of skills that you have. I was like, that's fair. And so anyways, long story short, we had lots of conversations, me and the CEO of this multifamily office which serves families around their wealth or wealthy families. And my job would be helping them manage their generational wealth in terms of the family dynamics. And so I was tasked with helping to build out some programming for families as they think about, how do I make sure this money doesn't screw up my kids? How do we make sure that doesn't screw up our family? And so I was in charge of generational wellbeing, which was a super fascinating journey for about two and a half years that I was there. Yeah.

Bring us up to today. You've resurrected this brand, recruit the employer, but you're doing different work within it. So tell us about this new work you're doing, specifically the work you're doing around outplacement, which I absolutely love.

Yeah. So when I was doing career coaching, I would have a lot of clients that would come to me. I didn't know much about outplacement, honestly. I would have clients that would come to me and said that they got company sponsored career coaching that was not very good when they got laid off. And. And so they ended up spending money out of their own pocket to hire me, which was awesome for me. But I kept thinking, like, that's kind of weird. Why are companies spending money on things that aren't effective? So I did a little bit more research and I realized that the outplacement industry is a $2 to $3 billion industry that doesn't have a lot of oversight. Because when companies lay off employees, they're kind of just hoping, okay, that their helps. Now I'm just not going to worry about that. I have these other fish to fry. And so these companies, while there are some good ones out there, most of them provide a very low quality of service. They're not personal. It's very impersonal. They don't address the whole person who is going through this very kind of traumatic event with a lowercase T. I like to say, where, you know, someone's a whole identity and like, have you ever been laid off, Jordan?

I, by God's grace, have not.

Okay. I have been laid off before and I was planning to leave and even in that situation, I felt mortified, kind of embarrassed. I felt like, wow, was I not good at my job? Like, all these emotions that encompass who you are, how you show up at work and then not to mention the financial aspect of it. And so when I was really thinking about going back out on my own and resurrecting this brand, I said, I, you know, I don't think I want to do the one on one career coaching. It's too much. Jenna's face. I'm not sure I want to do that, but I really want to help serve this population and kind of make this industry something that it could be and should be is really about redeeming people's work. And I know that's a Christian word. And then probably, you know, corporations don't necessarily resonate with that. But how do we make this really awful experience, something really great for this individual? Individual who's going through the layoff.

Yeah, it's really, really good. By the way, I think we've picked up on this from context clues. But for our listeners who have never heard this term out placement before, how would you define this term in this industry?

Yes. So when a company lays off employees, they will hire an external, essentially a career coaching firm to help them get all of their marketing materials ready. Right. Their resume, LinkedIn cover letter, and then help them with interview prep and the things that are associated with getting and landing a new job. Yeah.

Is this common?

You know, it's becoming more common, unfortunately, because we're also having more layoffs. So it's kind of a mixture of the two things, but for large corporations, it is pretty common. I think smaller corporations are starting to understand the benefits of it beyond just. It's kind of the nice thing to do. There's a lot of benefits in terms of salvaging your employer brand, honestly, mitigation against lawsuits. There's a lot of actual business benefits to doing it. But I would say. I would say about like 50% of companies are probably doing it. I'd like to increase that, honestly, not just because it's my business, but because it is, especially as we see more layoffs and people that are going through this really hard, hard time. How do we support them in that transition?

Yeah, yeah, well. And the trends are ever in your favor.

Yeah, unfortunately.

Unfortunately, as more layoffs are happening. All right, so let's make this a little bit more concrete before we talk about the spiritual element of this and why you're doing this. How does recruit the employer's outplacement service work? What practically are you doing for clients?

Yeah, so we have this system that I developed when I was working with, you know, a thousand plus people, one on one. I got a lot of experience knowing what works and what doesn't work. And that's also interesting. Most outplacement firms are not run by practitioners. They're run by individual coaches who aren't paid very well. So you don't get even attract the right, you know, the best of the best. So when somebody, you know, gets laid off, we actually meet with them and we, you know, talk to them about what do they want to do next, what are they thinking about? And we walk them through five stages. We walk them through helping them rebuild confidence is the very first stage. We start doing that immediately through a mixture of content coaching, group coaching, and resources. And so we do that. The second thing we do is help them get clarity. Right. A lot of people want to go just fix my resume and I want to move on. That's just not the solution. Because if you are fixing your resume for a path that you're not actually going to go down, it's a problem. So. So we help them with their clarity. And then the third step is actually giving them strategies to find a new opportunity and simplifying a very overwhelming experience. The fourth step is marketing to the job. So getting those resume, cover letter, LinkedIn profile, all that stuff ready in a modern way where a lot of firms that are out there aren't exactly modern and they're kind of antiquated and give antiquated strategies. And so we really pride ourselves on having the most up to date resources on that. And then the last stage is landing the job. So teaching people how to interview, using their personal brand, and ultimately negotiating to land a higher salary or benefits. So that's kind of our process that we work through in that. Again, that mixture of content coaching, group coaching and resources.

Yeah.

Okay.

And just to clarify, the person being laid off is not paying for this. The employer has provided this as a benefit as a part of their layoff, Correct?

That's correct. Yep.

I love this. I think it is so redemptive. I think this is such a beautiful picture of what it looks like to fire your neighbor as yourself.

Right.

Like, what was going on for you? You mentioned your own experience being laid off. Like, what was going on for you? That man, this is broken. And this is what I feel. God calling me to work, to redeem and renew.

Yeah. I think I just saw the industry as a whole was very broken. Like, this is a service that is offered. So one, that part of it was clear to me that there's so much opportunity to do this so much better so that somebody goes through the experience of a layoff. And I say this kind of in my opening video to folks whenever they go through the program. You know, I know you don't want to be here and I kind of don't want you to be here either. But if you're here, my job is to make this the best thing that ever happened to you, this layoff to be the best thing that ever happened to you. And I've seen people who've gone through layoffs and gone through this program who have completely changed paths in a really great way or who have decided to go out on their own or who have asked for more money and got it in their next opportunity. So I really look at it as an empowering thing that I think a lot of people in the job search space. It's very negative where I want it to be really empowering. So for me, it was this idea of I saw a huge problem in the industry. I knew I could solve that problem because I'd solved it before. And how do I just marry those two things together?

Yeah. That's good. I was going through the website and honestly, I was a little surprised at how affordable.

Yeah.

Your services are.

Yeah.

For your clients. But it's not an insignificant investment.

Correct.

So I'm curious, like for Christian leaders, that's who you're talking to, right? What's the key to them understanding the value of, as you put it on your homepage, layoffs with dignity? I think the answer would be pretty obvious, but I don't know, maybe you got something that's not obvious to our listeners here.

Yeah, I think the most obvious one is how do we send somebody off so they still become alums of your organization and not ex employees. So that's like a very practical business piece. We want those employees to have had a good experience, even if they got laid off, that it sent them on their way to the next great opportunity. That's really what a business leader, no one wants to lay somebody off. Right. Jordan? Like nobody actually wants to do that. If you are, you're a sociopath and that's a bigger issue.

Right.

So no one wants to blow up somebody's life. So when you're blowing up somebody's life, I always say this to leaders, you can never be too generous and it's never going to come back to bite you in the butt when you're too generous in that process. So there's that piece of it of sending somebody off with grace, I think for Christian leaders. But then there's the business case for it. As I mentioned before, it preserves your employer brand. It actually helps morale for those that are left behind. That like kind of survivor syndrome that often happens. There's a massive loss of productivity. But if they feel like their friends are actually having a really good experience in a program that's getting them excited about their next opportunity, they're going to feel better about, okay, if that happens to me, I know that I'm going to be in good hands. And then, not to mention there's obviously the litigations that can happen from different lawsuits that happen when layoffs occur. And so actually outplacement firms can kind of help mitigate some of those risks that are very real and very expensive for companies. And so all of those things together, the, the moral part and then the business part I think are some things that companies should really consider and leaders should consider that you can't just lay somebody off and hope the problem goes away. It's not going to go away. And so the best way to handle it and is to over communicate, over deliver on generosity as you're transitioning because it's never going to be too much.

Make that case. Yeah, I'm going to push back on that because I'm sure listeners like, nah, I've seen generosity come back to bite me the butt in terms of entitlement with team Members who stay make that case a little bit more as to why you can never be too generous and laying people off.

I think for those that are being laid off, if you think about yourself, there's probably people that are in your leadership team that maybe you, as maybe the founder, haven't experienced a layoff. But for those that have experienced a layoff, it's a pretty jarring experience. And when somebody is going through that experience, it is emotionally overwhelming. And when somebody is going through an identity shift, an emotional overwhelming experience, when you have support there on the other side, there's only benefits from that. I have not seen anybody that's gone through an outplacement program that's a good outplacement program have a negative feeling about the. They have a negative feeling about the company in terms of, oh my gosh, I got laid off. That was terrible. But if they had a good experience in their outplacement program, they're like, actually that was a blessing in disguise. And you want someone to have that feeling. And so that's what I mean about not being too generous. I don't think that providing support is being overly generous. I think it's actually just the status quo.

Yeah. Yeah, it should be. Yeah. And I think this is interesting. I think by God's common grace, there's probably going to be a lot of similarities to an outplacement policy within. I don't know, let's say you're in HR, LinkedIn, right. There's probably going to be some similarities between how a Christian at LinkedIn designs that outplacement policy versus a non Christian. But there should be something that's distinct, right? Like what do you think can be, should be, or in your experience is different about how believers are thinking about layoffs and outplacements in comparison to their non Christian counterparts?

I would hope that the answer comes into the idea of you're not just trying to, you know, maximize profit or minimize loss. You're also trying to empower the people and bless the people that are a part of your organization. If you. I believe as believers we need to be looking at the people of our organizations and have people over profit. Profit's important. Hear me, I'm a business owner. I know that's important. But there should should be parts of it that we recognize and honor as providing that dignity as somebody leaves. And we don't just look at them as a number. We look as them as a child of God and that we look at them as a whole person who has all this, this is going to have a ripple effect on their families. We can't just look at them as the bottom line. We have to look at them also as the whole person.

Yeah, it's interesting. I think the feature set of that outplacement policy might be really similar for the believer and the non believer, but the heart posture could be radically different. Right.

Can I give you an example on this? So there's a gentleman who, when I was doing some of my research, he was an HR leader in the healthcare space for years and years and years and years. And unfortunately for his company, they didn't offer outplacement. But what he did instead was he made sure that he called up his competitors when they laid people off to say, hey, we have, we're going through this awful thing right now. I want to make sure this guy lands in a good place. Would you be interested in interview him? He set up these like career fairs with their competitors. That's what it looks like to be a Christian who is laying people off with dignity and making sure that they land on their feet. And I can guarantee you that that is not being overly generous. I can guarantee you that person thought so highly of one, that individual, but also of the company that they would go out of their way to actually help literally land them the next job.

Okay, I love this. I love that we're getting practical. Let's build a list together here. We've already got one thing on the list of how Christian employ can handle layoffs differently. Calling competitors. That's super practical. Is there anything else you'd put in that list? You say, hey, here are 2, 3, 4, 5 things that Christian employers should do distinctly when laying off people.

I think the, you know, you'd be surprised at how many companies actually don't have a plan for when the worst day of your business happens, AKA when you have to lay off people. And honestly I would say that you, I know, talk a lot about excellence. Like part of having an excellent HR program or just people program is to put as much time and attention into your off boarding as you do into your onboarding so that when it happens you have a plan in place. So, so many, I mean so many companies do not have a plan and then they scramble at the end and then it's really bad. I've seen it go bad because the communication's bad, everyone's confused, nobody knows what's going on and the whole process is just completely shoddy.

For the record, I've been guilty of this. Just to state that clearly in publicly.

Well, right. You don't want to think about the crisis that will come. But you know, a lot of business owners, especially in this economy, they will face some sort of challenge like that where they may have to do make some uncomfortable decisions. So why should you not plan ahead? So I'd say that's a very practical thing that you can do ahead of time is get a really clear communication plan. And then I would say the other practical thing, as you are laying these people off with dignity, obviously I'm going to say practically, yes, call your competitors, hire an outplacement firm. Obviously consider what severance might look like if you want to provide severance for your team. And then I would also say to think about those that are left behind and how you can practically come up with a plan to make sure that those people feel as safe and secure as is humanly possible when the company feels like it's very rocky. And so you also have to create that plan not just for off boarding those people, but the after effects, if you will, of the earthquake that happened to your company. And so some things that I've seen some companies do is hold in all hands where you're having an open conversation. Maybe it's you're providing opportunities to the team. It could even look like just having a gathering of mini teams together, like the sub teams of an organization, to just connect and make sure that people feel secure and get some feedback. Those open lines of communication can really make a difference when a company is going through a hard time.

Yeah, that's excellent. So by my count, we got five really practical things that believers could be doing. I got you to fire your neighbor as yourself. So number one, maybe this is my interpretation, but spend as much time thinking about offboarding as onboarding. Be as intentional about excellence there as you are about onboarding. Number two, call your competitors on behalf of your team who's outgoing. Right. I love that. Number three, hire an outplacement firm which will help cultivate the strategy and solve points. Number one, two, and probably, you know, four and five. Number four, provide severance when possible. Number five, work to make the remaining team feel psychologically safe. Because, yeah, there is danger that I have been in that scenario where there are layoffs and you're still there and everybody's fearful of the second wave and that could be really detrimental to a team.

Yeah, the productivity loss that happens after that is pretty significant for an organization. I don't have the stats up in front of me. I can send them to you probably later, but they're pretty significant for a team team. So expect that. Create space for that, and then do as best as you can to rally the. Because what often happens to. In a layoff is that the jobs that are gone, the people that are left behind, have to fill in that work, and that can be really stressful. And so making sure that you're acknowledging that and being able to accommodate that for folks as they're navigating the after effects, I think is really important as well.

That's good. We've talked a lot about the business benefits of outplacement. I want to touch on the spiritual benefits of this. I'm curious if you know of a story where the way that a Christian leader laid off a team member actually opened the door to a positive conversation about faith.

Yeah, I actually don't know of an example of that right now. I don't know an example of that.

No. Listen, for the record, I think that's okay. I think there is still intrinsic value in making this type of investment, because this is just a practical way to love your neighbor as yourself. I say this all the time. Love your neighbor as yourself was a complete sentence. Jesus did not say, love your neighbor as yourself. If in doing so, you'll have a chance to tell them about me. Right. Love your neighbor as yourself is complete. And if it opens the doors to share the gospel, blessed be the name of the Lord. But if not, that's okay. We're still being obedient to one of the two great commandments that Jesus gave us. Amen.

Yeah, amen. And I would say, you know, even thinking about that HR leader that I gave the example of who called his competitors, I feel like his actions 100%. And he was very vocal about his faith in general, in the workplace, people who are not believers got to see what it looked like to experience a believer who actually walked the walk and didn't just talk the talk. And I think that is a really powerful, powerful thing for leaders to acknowledge and to recognize as part of their legacy. How you treat somebody and how you. How someone experiences you in kind of the worst times is really a testament to character over how they see you in the best of times.

Yeah, it's really good. Really good. Hey, Jenna, it's super clear how your faith is shaping what you're doing in this season of your career. Right?

Yeah.

But I am curious, like, how the gospel shaping how you were doing what you're doing, doing professionally. Right. Maybe to put it another way, like, what's one thing about how you're building this business now, that can only be fully explained by your commitment to Christ. Maybe it can be partially explained by business benefits, whatever, but can only be fully explained by walking in the ways of Jesus.

Yeah, I actually kind of have two that are interconnected, and this could probably be a totally different podcast episode. But for me, I feel like the Lord's really brought me on a journey around money and generosity. Over the past couple of years, I lived in a lot of scarcity, fear of not having enough. I didn't really trust the Lord to be my provider, trusted myself, my own abilities. I think probably a lot of leaders or entrepreneurs can relate to that in some way, shape or form. And I was really convicted when I was relaunching this business that I wanted to operate differently in how I approached the work. So there were two things that I'm doing differently that actually don't make sense from a business case. If I look at my peers, my peers, I mentioned the coaching piece. They paid coaches $30 an hour. Generally speaking, that's not going to get the best quality of coaches. And I decided that I was okay taking less of a profit to pay coaches three times what they are paid on the market for a couple of reasons. One, I was a coach and I know the value of what a coach can do and how it can impact a person. So, yeah, there's a business, business case for that, but really just respectful of people's time and their expertise. So for me, I really wanted to make sure that I was being very strategic about how I was allocating my capital and that people were always first and that the consumer at the end though, they're not paying for it, which is an interesting business that I'm in right now. Right. The end consumer isn't actually paying for the product or the service, that they are still getting the best quality of service. So that's the first thing. And then I would say personally for my husband and I, you know, my husband is in a role where he is kind of fully commissioned and obviously I'm an entrepreneur, so essentially the same. We have been so diligent about our giving and our tithing, which has been a stretch for us emotionally. I mean, we've done it in the past and it was, I would say it was not as consistent, embarrassingly so, as it could have been. And so I think for us, we took that very, very seriously. And I think about a lot. The Lord has really taken me on that journey and going above and beyond in a season that actually feels financially in insecure as we're both trying to build something. So I'd say those two answers kind of go hand in hand with how we're approaching money this time around.

Yeah, that's good. I've been thinking a lot lately about just the most common goals for Americans and those in the West. And I don't think the most common goals are that different within the church. And, you know, one of those maybe, number one, is financial security, financial independence, whatever you want to say. And when I look at the Gospels, I'm like, man, Jesus goal seemed to be financial dependence. Like, when he's giving this lesson about whether or not to pay Caesar, he doesn't even have a denarius on his person. He didn't have a quarter to his name. Right. And I don't even know what my question is here. More of a reflection. I just. We were at dinner with some friends a few weeks ago and maybe a few months ago now, and we're talking about, okay, clearly what our parents got wrong was, like, race. That was, like, the big blind spot, right? What is it for us? And my answer was, like, really easy. I'm like, I really think it's money. I think it's money. I think we're gonna look back. I think our kids are gonna be sitting around dinner tables 20 years from Epic, man, how in the world did our parents get this so wrong? So wrong? So I don't know. Any thoughts on the rambling?

I think that there's something to that. You know, I went to school, like, got a finance degree. I ended up on Wall Street. So obviously, the financial security piece is a huge part of my personal story. And I don't think I realized how much it had infiltrated my heart in a negative way until the past couple of years. And so I really want to operate. And this is a scary thing to say out loud because you don't know what happens on the other side of it, but really that the Lord is my provider. I am not my provider. And so I really want to operate out of that, in how I operate in my work. Work. And how I look at generosity as a family, individually and honestly, how we pay people in the organization. Those are all things that, for me, are really, really important to practice and not just talk about.

Yeah. You said a few minutes ago that at the genesis of this journey with money, you discovered that you were trusting in yourself. Use that language. Right. I knew that I was trusting myself, not God, to provide. How did you diagnose that? Like, how did you come to that realization of like, okay, Lord, I have a heart problem here.

I think it was when I would start to have panic attacks that we weren't gonna have enough money, which was irrational actually. So that was like, there's something to that. I might have an identity issue. And so I think it was that in combination with really recognizing that I was really not paying attention to what the Lord was doing. But like, kind of in the morning when I prayed, I'd be like, okay, Lord, like, please bless whatever I want to happen. But versus being like, lord, this is my life, it is yours. These are my finances, this is yours. I don't think that was an area I realized that was not an area of my life that I was as open handed with for a variety of reasons that I won't even get into. Right. And so I think for me it was the panic attacks that started to help me realize that there's a heart issue here. And just how I operated around money. I was lived in a lot of fear and scarcity and I was like, there's something wrong here. And so after talking to my husband a lot and talking to, you know, licensed therapist and just having great conversations with my mentor, I realized, oh gosh, you really have this striving and straining mentality, this orphan mentality. And you are really looking to yourself to be the provider because you look to yourself to, you know, there is something to doing really good work. Right. So we're not saying to opt out of doing good work, but there is this level of if you're doing not too much, you're not depending on the Lord to actually guide your steps. And I realized that was me and I was doing that.

How does that orphan mentality negatively impact the work?

Oh, so much because I'm operating out of fear. So I'm making decisions on a very short term mentality. If I don't believe that I have a provider and I have to, everything's up to me. I'm making really bad decisions in my business. And honestly, looking back at the first iteration, there was a lot of things that I did that I was like, that was really dumb.

But you did because you were afraid.

Because I was afraid. Right. This orphan mentality, I'm fearful that I will not be taken care of. And so therefore I have to fix it. But my fixing is very shortsighted and not actually very strategic or level headed.

Yeah, that's really, really good. I can relate to that. So you're working through this in real time, Right. How does your status as a perfectly secure, adopted Child of God, shape the work.

I think whenever I feel and really believe and internalize that to be true, I can be patient, which you have to be patient whenever you're building a business. Patient. I can actually have a more reasonable way that I'm looking at a strategy. I'm not just trying to get something in the door immediately. I can say that's actually a bad investment of my time and my energy or my finances. We actually need to go this direction instead, like a market. Like I'm deciding right now if I want to go with, with a certain lead generation firm or if I'm going to use some marketing resource. Right. So I'm like allocating my capital in a way. But if I'm operating from a spirit of I'm not an orphan, the Lord is going to provide, I can pray through that, feel like I'm getting the Lord's guidance on that, and then make a choice and know that even if it ends up being the wrong choice, the Lord is still with me along the way. So it allows me to make better decisions. I think the decision making is the key to all of this. It's just better decision making.

That's right. Tim Keller says for the believer, there is no plan B. Yeah, I don't think you can believe that in your bones unless you see yourself as an adopted child of God.

Right.

Because if I'm fighting for legitimacy, if I'm fighting for the right to be loved, there's fear in every decision. If I choose path A instead of path B and path A fails, I fail. Right. There's a total connection between results and my identity.

Right.

Does that make sense?

100%. I very much resonate with that. And I think too, whenever I'm living in that not an orphan mentality, a very much a beloved child of God, I also try things, then I'm not scared of that failure, as you had mentioned. And to be perfectly honest, never the thing, if I look back on my career, it was never the things that I perfectly planned out that ever came to fruition that ever ended up being the most awesome things that have ever happened in my career. It was always the things where I walked in open handedly, tried something new and the Lord either blessed it or didn't bless it. And in the instances where he blessed it, those were the coolest stories that I had nothing to do with. So I remind myself of that when I have moments, because we all do, where I start to get back into that old habit. I remind myself that the Lord has always provided And I actually have written down examples of financial provision and just like opportunity provision that he has has given to me in my life. And honestly, we mentioned this in the very beginning, but when we were first talking, you know, 2019, I was just newly got into a relationship for the first time after a decade. And I've been praying for so many years to meet my husband. So my family alone, I'll get choked up about it, but like, they are an example of God's provision. And so if I remember that, why would he not also show up in this business area? Because he cares much more for these things than he even does for the business us.

So anyways, it's really good. Yeah, we've got to constantly be meditating on how God has already been good to us and 100 our status as beloved children of God. So my office, super minimalistic, right? Like, I have two objects on my desk right now. I have my remarkable tablet I'm taking notes on, and I have my cup of water. Like, that's it, right? I hate clutter. But I just hung a sign in my office. It's like one of two things on the wall now. And I wanted a carbon copy of this sign that hung in Mr. Rogers's office.

Oh, I love that.

For 30 years. And it was a Hebrew printing of song of Solomon 216. My beloved is mine and I am his. And I wanted it because I think my heroes, the people who did the most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others, the people who displayed otherworldly kindness to others. God's loving kindness, God's kessed love to others. Like, Fred took a lot of time to meditate on their belovedness. Right. And the love that the father had for them. And so I want the same for me. And that's why that's in my office. And that's exactly what you're talking about. That's the key to going from orphan to adopt a child of God.

Yeah, I love that you have that up. And you're gonna have to send me the link to one of those.

I had a custom made. Actually, that's a lie. I don't know how I got it made. I just sent a picture to my assistant. I was like, figure this out. And she figured it out. But it looks like it's custom made. It's like a handmade piece of wood. It's beautiful. It's really simple, but really beautiful. And I don't know, I'm kind of all in on this idea of like stealing as Much as I possibly can for my heroes, like, word for word, picture for picture, wall frame by wall frame.

I love it.

All right.

Jenna Rogers is one of your heroes. That makes me so happy. Being a girl from Pittsburgh, that makes me incredible.

I love that you love it. My wife hates it. She, like, loathes my friend Rogers obsession. She's like, please stop talking about Mr. Rogers. Everybody's tired of it. Like, you have to stop. So thank you for that, Jenna. All right, hey, four questions. We wrap up every show with number one. What job would you love for God to give you on the new Earth?

I'd love to be a hostess, welcoming people into the pearly gates.

It's a great answer. Yeah, I like that answer. Okay, great. All right. Hey, if we opened your Amazon order history, what book would we see you purchasing the most to give away to friends?

Paul David Tripp's new Morning Mercies.

Oh, yeah. So good.

My husband and I both read it separately in the morning, but I have gifted that to so many people. My dad, I've given it to so many people. I think it's such a great way to start your day.

It's a really, really great book. Who would you most want to hear in this podcast talking about how the gospel shapes the work that mere Christians do in the world? And by the way, you've emailed me so many great guest recommendations, which I greatly appreciate, but if you had to pick one, who do you want to hear most?

You know, I actually think this person would be really interesting. I don't know if he would come on, but he's my old boss at the family office, office that I worked for. He's a really strong believer. His name is Ken Polk, and while it wasn't a Christian based company that I worked for, he very much was Faith Forward. And he just gave me a picture of what it looks like to be a faith based leader that doesn't have a fully faith based company base. And I just thought he did just a phenomenal job of showcasing what it means to be a great leader. And he was also very vocal about his faith, but not in a pushy way. And I just so admire the way that he has navigated that. And I think it's really what has allowed the company to be as successful as it has been. So I think he'd be super fascinating.

That's good. Good tip. All right, Jenna, you're talking to this audience of mere Christians. Very diverse vocationally, a lot of them, employers, a lot of them not. What they share is a deep commitment to doing their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. What's one final thing you'd like to say or reiterate to our listeners before we sign off?

It's two. Sorry because of the two audiences. If you are somebody who has gone through a layoff, just know that is not who you are. The layoff does not define that you do not do good work for the kingdom and for companies. So that's the first thing I think I would say. The second thing that I would empower employers to think about is what does your offboarding plan look like at the very least? At the very most, if you have a layoff coming in the future, consider how you would do that gracefully and how you would lay off those people with dignity.

So good. Jenna, I want to commend you for the exceptional work you do for the glory of God and the good of others. For choosing to put it in language from my friends at Praxis, a redemptive quest for this chapter of your career and helping leaders love their neighbors as themselves, even through layoffs. Friends, if you want to learn more and work with Jenna, you can find out more about her work@recruit the employer.com Jenna, thanks for hanging out with us.

Thanks for having me.

Hey, if you're enjoying the Mere Christian's podcast, do me a huge favor and go leave a review of the show on Apple, Spotify, wherever you're listening right now. Thank you guys so much for tuning in. I'll see you next week. Foreign. Hey friends, this is your last chance to claim all the amazing pre order bonuses for five mere Christians before they go away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9. I've never offered this many pre order bonuses on a book before, so when you fill out the form@5merechristians.com Number one, you're going to be entered to win an incredible trip for you and a friend to tour CS Lewis's favorite spots in Oxford, explore Olay Kirk Christiansen's former stomping grounds at Lego headquarters in Denmark, and much more. Number two, you'll be invited to join my first ever interactive reading, culminating in a zoom call with me and my co author on this book, Kaylee Cox. Number three, you're going to be getting a money back guarantee to try the book risk free. And number four, you'll also get access to a free course I'm not selling anywhere called how to write a book 10x faster and better with an affordable co author. You can claim all these bonuses in just two simple steps. Step 1 Pre order 5 mere Christians in any format you want. It can be hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And you can order it from wherever. Doesn't matter to me. Step 2 Go to 5mechristians.com and fill out the form of that page. And that's it. I'll send you all those bonuses. You'll be entered into the sweepstakes with one simple form submission. But hey, don't wait all of these off. All of these offers, all these bonuses. They're going away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9th. So visit 5Mere Christians.com right now to claim your bonuses.