Jessica Honegger and Liz Bohannon (Founders of Noonday Collection and Sseko Designs)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back guarantee on this book. I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me, right. I know this is a very different biography. What is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right? So that's the first reason this is a risk and I'm gonna de risk this book for you. Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended. End quote. But here's the thing. In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page. And that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on 5merechristians.com and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5meerchristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors but who work as pastry chefs or marine Biologists or financial analysts. That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to my friends, Jessica Honager and Liz Bohannon. Jessica is the founder and co CEO of Noonday Collection, the world's most successful successful fair trade jewelry business. And if her name sounds familiar, that's because she was on the podcast last year. In one of my all time favorite episodes, episode 118 of the podcast, Liz is the founder of Seiko Designs, an ethical fashion brand that works to educate and empower women. These are two incredibly impressive, successful, redemptive entrepreneurs who recently merged their companies and asked if I would share part of that story with you. And it is truly my privilege that they asked. Jessica and I sat down with Liz and we talked about how we can know if we are working for our self worth instead of from it. We talked about the costly measures these women are taking to honor all image bearers in the global fashion supply chain. And we talked about how recognizing that you house the glory of God can free you to make bold, even risky decisions. Trust me, you guys are going to love this episode with Jessica Honaker and Liz Bohannon. All right, Jessica, welcome back. It's been like almost a year to the day, actually that we last spoke for the podcast. How have you been?

You know, a lot can happen in a year, can't it?

A lot can happen in a year. Right.

I have a new colleague that I work with now, a new owner in my business that I am super thrilled for you guys to get to meet today. Liz, Fork and Bohannon. So there we've been up to a lot in the last year.

It sounds like it. So a year ago, did you have any idea that you'd be partnering with Liz and the team at C?

I mean, I didn't know even six months ago, we did a bit of a shotgun wedding.

A lot can happen in a year. I didn't want to jump in, but what I wanted to say is a lot can happen in 90 days.

A lot can happen in 90 days.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's amazing. I want to get to that in a minute, but I feel like I got to get to know Liz a little bit. By the way, for those of you guys listening, if you haven't listened to Jessica's episode of the Mere Christians podcast, I would highly encourage you to do so. It's episode 118. It released, I don't know, a year ish ago. So, Liz, first time we're meeting, heard about your work for a long time. You're in Portland, right?

I am.

Yep.

I'm up in Portland, Oregon.

Born and raised.

No, I was born and raised in the Midwest. I say no because I'm a Midwesterner at heart. I love the Pacific Northwest, and it's very much so home for the family and community that I'm building. But I'm a Midwest girl at heart. I grew up in Missouri.

You're such a Midwesterner. Because my husband is from the Midwest. And I classify. Okay, I just all in stereotype Midwesterners as being so super frugal. And I'm telling you right now.

So basically, Liz is cheap, and that's what constitutes her being a Midwestern.

This is correct.

So good. Listen, I grew up in, like, holy frugality.

Yeah.

You know, just like, this sense of. Yes. There was, like, pride that came from how frugal you can be. So that's funny, because I don't even know, Jess, that we've, like, talked. I feel like we haven't had the get to know you money conversation.

Oh, I can sniff it out. Liz.

I have sniffed you out, like, a history with money and where they came from and the stories that they tell themselves. And so the fact that you are really. You are really naming my Midwest roots there is funny to me.

It's. It's. Yes.

Because I'm married to one, and I love it. I love it. They.

They reign me in. I need people to reign in my spending habits.

So when Jessica was here last year, we got to do this, like, whole rundown of our favorite places to eat in Austin, because as we were talking about before we start recording, I know that city pretty well. I don't know Portland as well, though. Unfortunately, I was there last year around this time. I was hanging out with John Mark Comer at Bridgetown before he left, but, man, we had some incredible food. We went to this place called Fried Egg. I'm in love.

Which is.

Come on.

That's.

Oh, my gosh.

Oh, come on, Jordan.

Yes.

Yes, man. Yes. My. One of my best friends, Joy Eggerich, she. Reid introduced me to that. It was a food truck, and now it's a restaurant. And she actually has a sandwich named after her there. She was, like, such an early proponent. I know, I know, I know. But it's great. I will. I'm going to make a bold statement here. Portland, Oregon, Best food and drink for your money of any city in America.

That is bold.

No. Liz, Fork and Bohannon. We're not going to put on these gloves.

Absolutely. No, I. I know you can eat good in Austin. I don't know. Quite as good. But I'll. What if I even give you that and say quality can rival one another. It's cheaper in Portland. We have a more accessible.

It is cheaper in Portland. I'll give you.

Thank you, Jordan.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's shocking to me.

Yeah.

But I don't know that you can match the quality of. I mean, it's just a vibe thing. Right. Like, Austin's all Tex Mex and barbecue. So it's kind of come on. In the mood for.

We have good sushi.

But, like, no, this is a compliment.

Okay, okay, okay. That was the wrong example to bring up. Okay.

We were just together in Fort Worth, actually, and not to sound like a snob, but. So we're in Fort Worth at this amazing leadership conference Jess and I just put on. We're still kind of flying high slash exhausted. We just got back from it. But the night before the event, I got in my hotel, I went out to look for something to eat. And I love pokey. Love pokey. Like, my favorite food. And I walked past a pokey restaurant and, like the true Portland snob that I am, like, threw open my mouth a little bit and was like, I'm not eating raw fish in Fort Worth, Texas. Take me home. Take home and give me my raw fish.

We're getting off on the wrong foot here.

This is not good. We need to make a hard pivot. All right, so forget about the Geographic story. Liz, I loved in your bio, you describe your quote, unlikely story of a journalist gone shoemaker. What's the story there?

Yeah.

So the short story. And I know Jess might roll her eyes as soon as she hears me say the short story, because we'll see how capable I am of actually keeping it short. The short story is I got my master's degree in journalism and really wanted to use it in some way, shape or form, kind of in the realm of justice, social justice, human rights advocacy. And I moved to Uganda in East Africa, and I ended up meeting an incredible group of young women who were really academically gifted but couldn't afford to go to college and thought, well, I'll use my communication skills to kind of share this story and mobilize people towards some sort of solution. And then I was like, or I could just create the solution. And I ended up hiring these three young women, Mary, Mercy and Rebecca, and basically hired them to work during their gap year in between high school and university and committed to them. I said, hey, if you promise to make these sandals for the next nine months. I promise that you'll go to college next year. And they agreed. And I came home with several suitcases of bootlegged sandals and started selling them out of the back of my car and ended up launching what grew into a global sustainable fashion brand called Seiko Designs, where we create beautiful products that have even more beautiful stories about how they were created, about how the people who made these products were treated, how we talk about them, how we integrate them into our life. And that kind of brings us up to where we are today.

That's amazing. So, Jessica, I pretty much never check Instagram anymore, but I just so happened to log in a few weeks ago to see this very happy news at the top of my feed that your business, Noonday Collection, had merged with Liz and Seiko Designs in what you just described as a shotgun wedding. So how did the shotgun wedding.

Yes.

Come about?

Yes. So Liz and I have been really running beside one another for the last decade, creating jobs in places that have been largely left out of the marketplace. And we've both been running fashion brands through a direct sales model. So we have had these social impact entrepreneurs around the country, and they are creating the marketplace for the artisan partners that we work with. And it is a gathering that is highly based on great gathering in person. It's based on really being excited about selling jewelry and accessories and clothes. And, you know, these are areas that we've seen a hit in the last few months, both from COVID and from the emerging uncertain economy that we're in. And so in the last few months, we realized we needed to do a pivot in order to really reach the mission that we set out to reach 12 years ago, which is to build a flourishing world where women are empowered, where people have jobs, where children are cherished, and where we are all connected. And so one day in April, I reached out to Liz and said, hey, it's. It's time for us to talk about how we can do this together. And really wasn't quite sure how it would land. But after many, many conversations in those first few weeks, just realized that Noonday had an infrastructure. We ran our own fulfillment team, which also has an impact side to it. We actually employ refugees from Burma and as well from Eritrea. And that's a really core part of our mission. And we just had a team that could really support emerge. And so after talking through it all, we ended up Seiko Designs merged under the Noonday Collection brand. And several hundred of their, what they called fellows are now Noonday Collection Ambassadors. So it became official on August 1st. And since then, Liz and I have really been leading people through a big change process. And that's actually been something that's been really incredible because, you know, we've all gone through so much change over the last couple of years and here we are asking people to yet make another change. It's a shift not only for the people that were formerly Seiko fellows, but also for Noonday Collection Ambassadors. You have several hundred women suddenly join your community and it's a new community. We really are building something new together. And so how do you do that when you both have this root system that you've watered, you've nurtured, you've created over the last decade? And now we're saying, hey, we're going to fuse the root system and we're going to be one root system. And that's actually some of the imagery that we use. This weekend at our leadership conference we talked about about sequoia trees and how sequoia trees may weigh 250 tons and yet they have this very shallow root system and said their root system is wide. It goes out and instead of competing for resources, it shares resources. And that really is the picture of Seiko and Noonday coming together to share resources and now to really merge our communities together, our collections together, our impact together. One of the most beautiful things that's come out of this story is Liz originally started in Uganda, as did I. My first artisan partners are in Uganda. You heard her story about Uganda. And recently their local Ugandan that they began working with for many years is now the full owner of Seiko Designs Uganda. And Jalya Matovu, who's been running the Ugandan side of our operation, they're now walking with each other and mentoring one another. And they also were in a place of feeling alone and now they feel deeply collaborative. They're actually both going to be coming to our SHINE conference in Austin, which is our sales, you know, style business, building inspiration. It's like a UN summit slash fashion show weekend and that'll be in Austin. So it's, it's a unique story and it's one that I never saw coming and it's one that I still cannot stop pinching myself. I mean, to share the stage, you know, this weekend was our first time to physically, really, literally share the stage. And it's just so much more fun. It is so much more fun to be doing this with Liz and it's just so much more powerful to be doing it with Someone else. And so I'm. I'm really, really grateful for the opportunity.

Yeah. That's awesome. Liz. Jessica was here last year talking about how the gospel of Jesus Christ shapes what she does and kind of that mission that you shared before. I'm curious to hear you answer that same question. How does your apprenticeship to Jesus shape why you're doing what you're doing?

Yeah, I should go back and listen to that episode.

Me too, Liz. You and me both.

You know, I think for me, it really boils down to this, to the concept of Imago Day and just this deep belief that every human on planet Earth, regardless of where they were born, what language they speak, what home they were born into, what socioeconomic status, status or ethnicity they have, is created in the image of God and holds a piece of that kind of divinity within them and therefore deserves to be treated with dignity and respect. And especially for our brothers and sisters in the global supply chain. You know, 98% of folks in the global fashion supply chain do not earn a living wage.

Wow.

And we here, you know, even Christians in America, go to the store and we buy our clothes and we build our wardrobes and we get stuff for our kids, oftentimes without ever considering that and considering that impact. And one of the things that I talk about is this idea that the way we spend our money, speaking of money, the way we spend a dollar is actually a vote. We are saying, voting for this. This is how I want the world.

To work for these ideals, for these values.

Yeah.

And right now, in. In the fashion landscape, 98% of the time that you're spending a dollar, what you're voting for is the oppression of folks in our global supply chain who are working 14, 16, 18 hours a day and who literally aren't making enough money to cover their basic needs. We're talking food, shelter, basic health care, putting their kids in school. And that's not to mention just the more violent exploitation that's happening in. In order to support our need for more, cheaper, fast fashion. And so by. By creating another path, there's two ways that we can create change in the world. We can kind of draw attention to the problem. We can boycott. We can. We can kind of have like a no attitude of like, just don't abstain from this. The other thing that we can do is say, hey, I'm going to create something that's better. I'm going to create a different path, and I'm going to invite you into that. And that is what we are doing historically at seiko and together here in Noonday is saying, actually there is a way, especially for those folks who love fashion. There's nothing inherently wrong with color and style and silhouettes, and it really is an art form, and it impacts how people feel about themselves when they wake up in the morning and they feel put together and they feel like they're expressing themselves. There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, I think that that is like a way that we can bring glory to the Lord because it's art and in the Creator created us to create. But we can also do that in a way that aligns with our belief of the Imago Day, that every single person deserves to be treated with dignity and respect. And not only can we vote for that, we can actually be a part of changing that story for literally millions of our brothers and sisters in the global supply chain.

Yeah, I don't think anybody said it better than I know a friend that we all share in. Andy Crouch. The only way to change culture, or maybe the best way to change culture, is to create more culture.

Right?

Not just to critique, but to create more of it. So, Jessica, 98% of these dollars are voting for values that we believe, I would agree, are out of line with God's commands. How are you guys doing things differently in operating this business and ensuring that you're doing it in a profitable way?

I mean, how we do things is honestly so radically different. And I didn't even really know this difference until I started started working with our partners. And, you know, I remember meeting one partner that's been new to us in the last four years. And when I sat down with her in India to go over our terms and over how the purchase order process would work, which, by the way, is not something I usually do. Liz is like, okay, wait a minute now, usually our team is doing that. But I was. I was hands on the ground, feet on the ground in India at that time. And the fact that we pay 50% up front before receipt of any sort of product because we want to help our partners with cash flow, that is a huge problem. And think about it, it's a huge problem in America with small businesses with cash flow. And our partners are in countries where loans might be upwards of 30% interest. So we act almost as a microcredit bank for our partners, and we walk alongside them with. With this principle of responsible financing. We also walk with them in collaborative design. You know, we really want to understand what are their skills, what are the materials that they have available, what are some of those heritage Techniques that have been maybe in their family for generations and generations, and we want to honor those. So that's another way where we honor the maker. And then we also really value long term partnership. You know, there's a lot of traditional retail that has gotten into this space that gets a little bit of the greenwashing or the impact washing that comes with, oh, we have this new collaboration, but it's there for a minute and it's gone the next. And that actually, unfortunately, I mean, I am so happy that artisan made and handmade is actually a trend in the marketplace. So don't hear me that I'm not super grateful for that. But on the other side of it, when there's not a commitment to long term partnership, an artisan may scramble to build a whole new workshop just to be able to support, support the production of that. And then if there's never an order placed, then they're kind of maybe left in debt over that order. And so we partner and we've worked with many of our partners for 10 years plus, which is really incredible. And then we also come alongside these partners with a flourishing world initiative. So some of those extras, whether it be them wanting to build a store and you know, many of our partners live in places where tourism thrives. And so whether it's building a store, whether it's educational needs, you know, we've committed to, I think this next year we're going to send over 40 women through school, through scholarship program, both through Seiko and then also a scholarship program that we've had through noonday for many years. And we walk with our partners too, when extra needs come up, especially during COVID we were able to raise hundreds of thousands of dollars. Food has been. Food insecurity has been a real crisis in East Africa because of the war in Ukraine. And so, and so we've been able to come alongside those partners and help with food security in ways that they've gone without. But you talk to a traditional retailer and you tell them the terms of what we do and how we work. And it is radically different than most.

Retailers because it's incredibly risky and it's incredibly costly. And in the world's economics, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Right, Jessica?

That's right. You know, but we live in the upside down kingdom or Dallas Willard in the right side up kingdom, really. Right. Like we're doing it the way that is, is honoring the maker first and honoring that Imago day that is in each of us. And it is costly and it's been more costly these last couple of years. And. But that's truly. We live in line with our values. And, you know, I think that's something that our ambassadors see once a woman decides, you know what, I want to be a part of this. I want to create a marketplace in my community for these beautiful handmade goods. And then they see, wow, this is really different how we are doing this. And our community is really different. I think our community is such this beautiful place. We just gathered with 80 of our leaders this weekend. And you also sense a difference there. I mean, these are people that come from all different political backgrounds, religious backgrounds, and yet we're really creating a safe space for dialogue, which I think is becoming increasingly more rare these days. And we really are gathering around this mission and being a place where, you know, like the sequoia trees, where we're truly committing to holding one another up.

It's good. Yeah. These are like real practical examples of how the gospel shaping how the ventures doing business differently. Liz, I'm curious for you at, like, a personal level, right? As co founder, CEO, is leader of Seiko and now a leader of Noonday, how is your faith shaping how you do the work day to day of leading this business?

Oh, I think for me, probably one of the biggest things, you know, you can never tell on the outside is somebody hustling. Are they running? Are they working super hard? Are they casting a vision and chasing something out of a sense of striving.

Yes.

For worthiness, for belonging, for affirmation, or are they actually propelled by the belief that they already are worthy? They already, they already do belong. And now they get to go create that for others and invite other people into that. And listen, we can't tell from the outside because they can both, I'll tell you this look like a hustle and look like a grind, you know, And I will be the first to not in a culture. And listen, I deeply believe in the value of work, life, balance, and resting so that we don't quit. And I think that there are seasons and times.

Yeah.

Where we're called to just, like, leave it all on the field and get to the point where we do feel so poured out that we have to go to the Lord for strength, for wisdom, for stamina. And there are different seasons for each of that also, you know, striving verse, verse leading out of a sense of being filled up can look like. It can look like rest, it can look like a piece. And saying, no, we can't tell from the outside is the point, but the. The inside job for me has been making sure. And when I say making sure, I've been at this for 13 years. So I've admittedly had many seasons where it's been more out of a striving for to achieve these things than I'm filled up. And I realize the difference. Deep abiding truth, like, I already belong. I already matter. My worthiness. You know, one of the things that I say to my kids every single night we have our family prayer says, I'm not what I am, what I do, or what people say. I'm a child of God, and no one can take that away. And then there's another line that says, there's nothing I can do to make God love me less or more. I don't have to hurry or worry. Jesus settled the score. And I say those to my young, young kids. But the reality is, like, I'm also reminding myself of that. I. I don't have to. I. I can't earn. I. God loves me as much as I can possibly be loved today. And there's nothing good that I can do that's going to increase that. And there's nothing bad that I can do to take that away. And that creates. Just like I get to go out into the world and pour out and to take risks and to give because. Because of that, because I have that assurance. And that is the spirit of what and where I want to lead from verse. Like, I have to go prove myself, and I need affirmation, and I have to prove my own worthiness by being successful.

So my listeners are so tired of me saying this. I say it all the time, but it comes up all the time in conversations. I do a very similar routine with my kids every night. So last thing I tell them before I walk out of the rooms is, hey, Ellison. Kate Emory, you know, Daddy loves you no matter how many bad things you do. And they say, yes. I say, you know, I also love you no matter how many good things you do. Yes. Who else loves you like that? Jesus. And I think what you're hitting on, Liz, is so true. The irony of that truth is that it actually makes us more ambitious for the work, because working to earn and secure somebody's favor is exhausting. But working in response to that unconditional favor, that unmerited favor, that secure favor, is, like, totally intoxicating.

Right?

Like, you want to do the work not because you need to, but because you want to bring your heavenly father pleasure. Does this resonate with you, Jessica?

Oh, yeah. I mean, I think, listen, especially the last few years, so many of our types of companies have gone under and it has been a challenging environment to keep at it. And at some point you just have to keep at it from a place of rest and security and of confidence. And, you know, I had to redefine success a few years ago when I realized I didn't. You know, I started Noonday from such a place of innocence, really. And it was very organic. And I remember, I remember on my first website, I wouldn't even call myself the founder CEO. I said, I'm the steward of collection, you know, and I even said, I'll never use the name CEO or founder. I'm just simply the steward. You know, I'm the instrument. And you know, at some point along the way, I think especially when you do face success and we had very big and fast success, it's just easy to start rooting your identity in those outcomes and in the size of what something is. Or even in our line of work, where impact is what we're about, you do find identity in sort of the largeness of the impact that you're making, the scale of that impact. And you know, at some point, out of God's love and tender kindness, you know, when some of that success started to slow down, I didn't realize that my identity had been in a lot of those outcomes. And it was brutal, brutiful, and challenging. When some of that success did start to decline and I threw a temper tantrum like a three year old and I had that place in me that's just like, I want what I want and I want to get what I want it when I want it right now, right now. And, you know, realizing that I had to start working from a different place. And it had to come from really that original place that I did work from that I'd kind of gotten away from, but just kind of that like, I can't believe I get to do this.

Yeah.

And that I just, My job is to simply be faithful. Like that's what success is. And I had to, I had to start defining success like that. My job is, is to be faithful and faithful today and faithful tomorrow and faithful to rest and faithful to love my family. And all of that is now really what catapults me forward. And it really does make a difference in how you approach your work.

Yeah, Liz, I like the way you, you articulated this idea of are we striving in response to, to secure identity or in a wild goose chase for that identity? And in Jessica's case, it's easy to see whether or not you're holding that tension well, which side you fall on it when things blow up.

Right.

There's a crisis. It's a lot harder to see when things are going well. And I think you're right. I think it's really hard for others to see. To see that. I think this is very much an internal condition. So for you, Liz, how do you keep this in check? What does that look like? What are the symptoms that you're looking for that are telling you that you're chasing your identity and your worth rather than responding to the secure worth that is found in Christ alone?

Yeah, I, so I hesitate to answer this super honestly because I don't want it to be misconstrued. So I'll take, I'll have some context that I, I deeply believe that mental health and anxiety and depression are very real medical conditions and that have to do with the chemistry in our brain and need to be treated as such. And I do think that there is a general level that I experience. Probably my anxiety is a really big indicator how much I'm trusting the Lord, how much I'm striving versus how much I am running and chasing because I am filled up in that secure worthiness. And so I think that, that to me, just to be very honest, like when I wake up in the morning, the state of my mind and my body, it's, it, it helps me. I, I like to take note of it, of if I'm like every day waking up and just my first waking thought in the pit of my stomach is one that is filled with a lot of anxiety and dread. That's such a good indicator to me, again for me, because I, I wouldn't identify as somebody that kind of struggles with like chronic mental illness in the, in the depression and anxiety realm. That to me ends up being a really powerful tool for me to clue into and say o like your body is telling you that you're chasing and you're striving and you don't believe that you're enough and you don't believe that God is going to take care of you. And so that kind of quote unquote, negative emotion. I don't really believe that there's such things as negative and positive emotions. I think it's all information. And you know, we can, and, and so we can either treat, even quote unquote our negative emotions, we can try to beat them out of ourselves, you know, like, and then what we're really doing is we're just heaping shame upon hard emotions, right? I feel sad. I'm beating myself up. Why are you feeling sad? I'm feeling anxious. I'm feeling all of these things. I'm feeling jealous. Like, I think jealousy is one of the most amazing clues and, and especially in the Christian world, I feel like we're very much so taught, like, jealousy is a sin, and so you got to beat it out of yourself. Like, be more, you know, be more grateful. And I think gratitude is basically the answer to everything. So I'm not disagreeing with that. But, man, what if instead of being like, you know, so stop being jealous? Like, be grateful, be grateful, be grateful. Beat it out of you. What if you said, oh, my goodness, thank you, thank you, body, thank you, mind for that really interesting piece of feedback and then digging in and going, is there an unfulfilled desire of my heart or wish or plan or goal that maybe I haven't been brave enough to say out loud or I haven't created the time to get in touch with what is my body and mind telling me about how I'm feeling towards this person? And what can I learn about my own life and my own gifts that God's given me and the own kind of, you know, desire of my heart? And so for me, instead of waking up and being mad at myself or being anxious, it can be a real gift and tool that I need to do some work of rerouting myself in the truth of who I am and the truth of who God is so that I'm not waking up every day feeling like I'm on a hamster wheel with something to prove and instead feeling like I can go out into the world and pour out and create space of belonging and in shade for others.

Yeah, man, that's really well said. Hey, Jessica, I want to go back to the merger for a second because you guys just made this major decision, right, to merge together Noonday and Seiko. I'm curious for you, Jessica. What did it look like for you to seek out the Lord and his will, quote unquote, as you evaluated that opportunity? What did your prayers look like during this time? How did you kind of sort through this decision?

You know, that is an interesting question because I was just talking with a friend yesterday who is also evaluating leaving her job right now, and. And she just says, I just don't think I trust God. I don't think I trust God. And so I'm not really praying much about it. And I do think, as Christians, sometimes we're so externally focused, like, what's the sign? What are the conversations? But I love this quote. It says, I keep crying out to know the will of God without remembering that his will is knitted into the fabric of my being. And I'm just. I'm such a believer in that that I house God. I mean, that is one of the most radical concepts of Christianity that like. Like God has taken up residence in my body and I now house the glory of God. I mean, that is truly mind blowing. And there is a level to me of trust that's just trusting the journey that. Trusting that God is in me and I sow into him and he sows into me. And there's a place of. As you walk, the path will appear. So I can't say that it was this huge. Oh, my God, I'm going to fast. I'm going to pray. There is a level. I mean, when I went into this last year, God gave me that scripture from Jeremiah 17 that says, but blessed are those who trust in the Lord and have made the Lord their hope and confidence. They're like trees planted along a riverbank with roots that reach deep into the water. And such trees are not bothered by the heat or worried by the long months of drought. Their leaves stay green and they never stop producing fruit. And. And that was the image that I went into my year with. And it was a drought. I mean, it really was a drought. Those first couple months, we had really aggressive sales goals that weren't being met. And there just, you know, came this time where it was like, I'm just gonna. I'm gonna give Liz a call. We're gonna see. And there was a lot of working with an attorney and working through a lot of the numbers and looking underneath each other's hoods of our cars, if you will. But I think also just Liz and I are so. And my business partner, Travis, there's just such an alignment there, I think, you know, we've both been involved in an organization called Praxis that you're probably familiar with. And even there, there is a, you know, rhythm of life that we commit to there. And even how Liz. Liz lives her life in Portland. She lives in the context of a community and is very transparent. And that's something that's really important to me. About a year ago, I started. I lead a group with a psychiatrist named Kurt Thompson, and we lead seven women in a confessional community. And it's all about just naming our fears, naming our anxieties, naming these things so that we can tame them. And naming in the presence of other people, because it's amazing how much courage can come when you just name what you're feeling and you don't even have to figure it out or why or where did it come from, but simply just naming it and just, like, listed using those feelings as information. We feel first, and then we think, you know, the body keeps the score. And so what does it look like in the context of community to be able to feel these things, let those things emerge, name them, confess them to one another, and just have a community that says, I'm not leaving the room. I'm not leaving the room. I think that was something that was really important to me at a time when noonday was not facing the success it previously had, because not only do we question our own identity, but we can also question our. Do other people love me because of my success? Do other people love me because I hold this position? Or I could even get this for them or hold that for them? And it was important to me to be able to name some stuff that was going on behind the scenes in the context of this group and say. And have them say, hey, we're not leaving the room. That's not why we love you. You know, we're. We're here for the long haul. We're stayers. We're going to be stayers for you no matter what. And I truly believe that it's the timing of that group, group and then just really learning, you know, confidence and courage in the context of community. And it really is what enabled me to, I think, go into these conversations really with a posture of curiosity and openness. And it just, to me, it just became very evident that this was the right move, the move to make. And of course, there were moments of fear and doubt and what are we thinking? And thankfully, we're on the other side. And it was definitely the right move because our revenue is doing, you know, really improving, and our communities have both really come together in the most beautiful way. I never could have dreamed. I mean, just watching women name their losses and choose one another and decide we're going to build something new together, it truly is a miracle almost to witness. And that's been one of the most powerful points of feedback that we've gotten, even after this weekend of leading physically together for the first time. Just so many women saying, two strong women can share a stage together. Two strong women can lead together and. And do it with joy and humility. And, I mean, not to say it's all, you know, rainbows and Unicorns behind the scenes. But I do think there's this certain level of work that Liz and I have both done because we have chosen community, you know, because we are more known behind the scenes than we are on the stage. We are known in deep places by people that love and care for us. In fact, on Sunday night, I flew home from this event, and I was driving. Youth group happens at my house on Sunday night. So all the kids are at my house, and across the street is my small group. And I was like, wow, I'm exhausted right now. I've literally gotten 10 hours of sleep combined in the last three days. But I have this soft place to land with this small group that I have. And I think that it's really the work that Liz and I do behind the scenes, where no one is watching or no one can see, that's enabled us to really build this new thing that we're building together.

Yeah, I love that so much. It's the private work, it's the unseen work that makes for the best, most faithful external work. Liz, you guys. I'm sure you guys know the numbers better than I do. We all know that most mergers fail, right?

We heard that later, and we were like, well, that's depressing.

That's funny, because Jess might have been like, that's depressing. And I remember being like, oh, dang. I love a good challenge.

Oh, yeah.

That's how I was feeling, because it's 80. It's 80 of mergers fail. So I'm feeling a new sense of, like, excitement and accomplishment of being like, oh, we're gonna.

We're gonna, Liz, we're friends. That's exactly how I would feel. I am curious, though, like, knowing that, what are you guys doing differently in order to make this thing work?

I mean, I think the beginning of it was this weekend, and Liz can expound on this, but, you know, we had a merger and integration coach come and lead us through a really vulnerable journey of actually naming our losses and naming what is. And that is the number one thing that leaders miss and emerge is. Is really creating space for grief. I think we're afraid of it as leaders. Oh, my God, they name it. And, you know, what if they decide to leave? Or, you know, what if, what if, what if? And I think really creating space for naming and memorializing the losses. And then I do think that painting that picture, I mean, we have such a unified vision, and that is really what unites our communities. I mean, these women are like, we're not going to be quitters. On our partners in Uganda. And they're super excited, too, about getting to have this even larger global impact and get to know these new places. But I think a space of naming our losses and a really strong vision are the two things I would identify. What about you, Liz?

Yeah, those would be the big ones. I mean, I think. I think I would just say we had to start by going first. You know, you can't lead people through this process without having done it yourself in a really honest and transparent way. And so just making the note, and that was really, really challenging. And honestly, it's probably the area of the merger where I would rate myself maybe the lowest is what I'm realizing. And I. I'll just share this as, I don't know, challenge encouragement to any leaders who might go through this. People need so much from you that it is really easy. Everybody has an emotional need that needs to be met, and it's really easy to neglect yourself in the process because, yeah, it's just kind of felt like this almost like, relentless. Like, I don't have space to do that for myself because all of my space is being taken up by other people who need that from me. And so really having the foresight and discipline to ask yourself before going into a season like this of, like, who are your people going to be? What is your. How are you processing this? What are the spaces that you're creating for yourself? Because otherwise, if you don't do that, I can promise you, you will get swept into the tidal wave of just like every day waking up and feeling completely spent and poured out. Because isn't it interesting how everybody else's needs feel like there's a deadline? Like, I have to get on the. I have to get on a call with this employee, with this sales representative, with this future business partner. I have to deal with this right now because their problem is urgent and they need me to walk them through this. My problems have no deadlines, and I can get to them later. And, like, you're the one, you know, And I think a lot of times I. As leaders, we're tough, resilient people, and sometimes we can forget that we also have needs. And, like, I sometimes feel like I abuse or exploit myself of just being like, no, no, no, your stuff can be dealt with later versus really, you know, really making that a priority. And so I share that out of a more honest, transparent place of, you said, what's making it work? And I think. I think Jess answered the what's making it work? And then I turned it around and said, here's. Here's an area where I probably wouldn't give myself an A plus. That I think in hindsight is just a really, really, really critical thing for any leader who's. Who's going to walk through this.

No, it's so good. And I. I think we see this example beautifully in the life of Christ. You know, Jesus was incredibly sacrificial with his time, but he also was constantly withdrawing to solitary or quote, unquote, lonely places to commune with his heavenly Father. He needed that in order to lead those around him. And I think that's a good example for us. Hey, Jessica, real quick. I noticed that the Seiko brand is falling under the Noonday banner. I think I got that right. And I just found out that the name Noonday comes from Isaiah 58. My team dug this up in research for today. What's the story behind the name? What's this passage?

Yeah, so it says, when you satisfy the needs of the oppressed, your night will become like the noonday. And I was just 12 years ago brainstorming a name. Noonday was just an idea. I had had maybe 30 women over to my home to shop some artisan made goods from Uganda. And the response was so overwhelming that other women said, I'll open my home if you can get more jewelry. And so I had already contacted Artisans in Uganda. Unbeknownst to me, they didn't even have a home. They didn't have a bank account. They were even going to an Internet cafe to use a computer. But they told me, oh, yes, absolutely, we can. We can get all of these things to you. And in fact, they did. And now, you know, they run a thriving business in Uganda and at one point were even the largest exporter of accessories in Uganda. But the name, I was brainstorming, and I knew I wanted something that represented light and hope. And I just thought, gosh, noonday, noonday. And right then I opened up my phone and received an email from a friend living in Ethiopia. And he said, hey, I've been praying for you lately. And it's this scripture that came to mind, and that was the exact scripture, Isaiah 58, 10. So I was like, I love it when God's clear like that. It's rare, but when he is, you just go with it.

That's amazing. I love it. That's so great. And it's such a good representation of the work you guys are doing with God in this world. All right, Liz and Jessica, three really quick questions. We wrap up every conversation with Liz let's go with you first. Number one, which books do you find yourself recommending or gifting most frequently to others?

Oh, my goodness. Recommending probably honestly anything by Brene Brown. Gifting. There's a book called Every Moment Holy, which is like a really beautiful kind of just set of. Of prayers and liturgies for everyday life that I just find to be. It's one of my favorite gifts to give just to, you know. Jess even mentioned earlier how we as a culture don't do great at kind of liturgy and ceremony. In a way, a lot of our brothers and sisters globally have a lot to teach us. And so anything that can help kind of create rhythms and traditions and ceremony and especially not just of the big ones, right. Like weddings and death, but just like making my coffee in the morning and when I'm praying for a friend who's lost a child or when I'm changing the 100th dirty diaper in, you know, three days. Like, how do we actually invite God into those spaces and create some ceremony and connection out of it? So I love gifting that book.

It's one of the few physical books I still own and I love it so much. It's a great answer. How about you, Jessica? Which books are you recommending these days?

Yeah, so I recommend anything by Kurt Thompson. Start with Soul of Shame. I also right now am raising teenagers and technology is one of the big topics among friends. And so Andy Crouch, his most recent book.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Great book.

And also, what was this called again?

It's Life we're all looking for.

Well, yes, you got it. You got it. And then as well, his daughter, who was a teen at the time, wrote a book Techwise. No, it wasn't Tech wise family, but Techwise something, you can look it up.

It's Techwise Family.

That's the one he wrote.

Oh, yes.

And then the book that I gift and I probably read out loud, I have a screenshot of my favorite passage of this book in my phone and I've read it out loud to Liz. I've probably read it out loud. I read it out loud more probably once a week to someone. But it's Prayers in the Night by Tish Harrison Warren. She is an Anglican priest. And it is the most beautiful book that really tackles all of the questions that we wrestle with. But in the most beautiful prose that I've ever read, I absolutely love this book, Prayer in the Night. When I think about heaven. We're practicing for heaven right now and practicing for heaven. So much of it is that someday we're going to sit and we're going to see Jesus face to face. And I think as a seven on the Enneagram, I've always thought, like, it'll be, presto, magician, unicorns and rainbows. But actually, what scripture says is he's going to wipe away our tears. And if he's going to wipe away our tears, it means that we have this moment of grief. So I'll read this to you, but it says the end of the Bible turns to the end of time. And John describes a breathtaking moment when God will wipe every tear from his people's eyes. When we finally see God face to face, we will be made whole, and there will be no more death or crying or pain. But wait. Not until we have one last long cry. Christians believe that a place of eternal joy not only exists, but is more real than the diminished place of sorrow and pain we now know. The image of God wiping away our tears could, of course, be a metaphor. But what if it's not strictly poetic language? What if, in the face of our maker, we get one last chance to honor all the losses that this life has brought? What if we can stand before God someday and hear our life stories told for the first time, accurately and in their entirety, with all the twists and turns and meaning we couldn't follow when we lived through them? And what if the story includes all the darkness of suffering, all the wounds we received and given to others, and we get to weep one last time with God himself? What if, before we begin to live in a world where all things are made new, we weep with the one who alone is able to permanently wipe away our tears?

That's amazing. And will he get greater glory if that's true? Of course he will, so why not? That's beautiful. Hey, can you read my next audiobook, Jessica? Are you kidding me?

That's the whole reason I want to write another book. I love doing the audio. I was like, this is my calling in life.

Oh, my gosh. The most exhausting thing I've ever done in my life. All right. But if. But a blast had a blast. Exhausting. Hey, Liz, who do you want to hear on this podcast talking about how the gospel shapes their work?

Oh, man. Who would I want to see on this podcast? The first person that came to mind is my friend, Ashley Eland. She's an amazing leader. She's a pastor, writer, podcaster, does all the things, and she's just one of the voices that I find myself going like, I wonder what Ashley would Think about this. So I'd love for her to be on this show.

It's a great answer. I gotta look Ashley up. What about you, Jessica? I think you said Kurt last time.

I mean, see, I'm consistent. What can I say?

No, I know. I'm going with it again.

I mean, I kind of am.

I literally. I.

It's so hilarious. I wrote. I wrote him this long birthday text yesterday. I went on and on, and I basically said, like, I'm a disciple of Jesus. And of course, Kurt Thompson. And he replied this morning. So sweet. He said, thank you so much for these words for my birthday. That was a week ago today.

That's so great. Update calendar. We got to get in touch with Kurt. I think that'd be a great conversation.

Oh, yes.

All right.

Please.

Liz, what's one thing from today's conversation you want to reiterate to our listeners before we sign off?

Oh, even if your business partner does something really special and you feel really touched by it, you find out that she's done it with thousands of other people. Take heart. Oh, no. Jk. Jk. I think just like the opportunity that we have to create in the world and to do that out of a place of fullness and truth and understanding of our ultimate belonging and worthiness.

Man. Well said. Jessica, you're talking to an audience of mere Christians who are just going about their work as entrepreneurs and baristas. What have you. What do you want to say to them before we sign off?

It is cliche, but it is true that you are so loved. And no matter what you're doing right now, whether it's pouring the coffee, making the coffee, doing the dishes, or looking over your invoices for the month, God will come to find you. He is a God who pursues you, who comes after you, and he has the most gentle way of causing our faces to turn towards him.

Beautiful. Liz, Jessica, I want to commend you both for the exceptional work you do for the glory of God and the good of others, especially women. Thank you for today reminding us of the importance of community and making even costly choices of valuing other image bearers the way that God would have us. Guys, if you want to learn more about Jessica and Liz, you can do so@noondaycollection.com Liz and Jessica, thanks again for coming back onto the Mere Christians podcast.

Thanks for having us, Jordan.

Thanks, Jordan.

Man, that episode was a lot of fun and super deep and wise. I hope you guys took as many notes as I did. Hey, if you're enjoying the Mere Christians Podcast. Do me a favor and go leave a review of the show on Apple Podcasts on Spotify wherever you listen to the show. Guys, thank you so much for tuning in this week. See you next time. Hey friends, this is your last chance to claim all the amazing pre order bonuses for five mere Christians before they go away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9th.

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