Jessica Honegger (Founder of Noonday Collection)

The episode you're about to listen to was released back when the Mere Christians podcast was called the Call to Mastery. Now, if you love Mere Christians, you're still going to love these older episodes because the majority of each conversation focuses on how the gospel influences the work of our guests. With that disclaimer out of the way, please enjoy the episode.

Foreign.

Hey everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I'm Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. Every week I host a conversation with a Christ follower who's pursuing world class mastery of their vocation. We talk about their path to mastery, their daily habits, and how the gospel influences their work. Today's guest is Jessica Honaker. She's the founder and co CEO of Noonday Collection, the world's most successful fair trade jewelry business. In 2015, Inc. Magazine named Noonday collection number 45 out of the top 5,000 fastest growing companies in America, also designating it the third fastest growing American business owned by a woman. To date, Noonday has created dignified work for over 4,500 artisans across the globe, impacting over 20,000 family members. As you'll hear about in this episode, Jessica and I sat down recently. A terrific conversation about what dignified work actually means and what does it look like practically and how can we be creating dignified work for others in line with God's image for work in the Garden of Eden. Speaking of the Garden of Eden, we also talked about what the shame that Adam and Eve experienced after the fall has to do with courage and our work today. And finally, we had a terrific discussion about how prayer and Sabbath can help us, quote, relax into the goodness of God. You guys are gonna love this conversation with my friend, Jessica Honager. Hey, Jessica, thanks so much for joining me.

Thanks for having me.

So you're based in one of my all time favorite food cities. Oh, okay.

I can talk food. I was afraid you were gonna go to music and I am just kind of a. I'm not cool when it, man. I'm like stuck in the 90s there. But I can chat food with you.

I can't talk music. I can't talk sports. I can talk queso. So. Oh yes, Jessica in Austin, Texas. Let's do it. Rapid fire Best of Austin food questions. All right.

Okay.

First category. Best queso in Austin.

Taco Deli.

Oh yeah, that's a good answer. That's a solid answer.

Yeah, most people are going to say Torchy's, but Taco Deli is just kind of that underdog that you gotta get. It's very liquidy. I don't know how to describe it, describe it, but it just. It's unique. Very unique.

I do love Torchy's queso. This is going to be an unpopular answer to this, but I dig Fonda San Miguel. Oh, fancy little dragon.

Yeah, it's so beautiful.

It's a cool spot. All right, Best barbecue.

Well, blacks. I'm going to go with blacks. Which is actually the original location is, of course, in Lockhart, which is the heart of barbecue down here. They have a location here in Austin. And it's melt in your mouth. Makes me want to go there.

I love blacks. I'm a fancier barbecue guy. I dig Lambert's downtown. Is that place still there? Downtown?

Yeah. Yep, it is.

It's a good spot. All right. Best dessert in town.

Well, I'm an ice cream girl, so I'm going to go with Teo's Gelato.

Never been. I gotta go.

It's a small family owned gelato spot.

I haven't been to Austin since pre pandemic. Is Gordo's still hanging around Gordo's Donuts.

Well, okay. Oh, yes. Okay. I go there like once a year, and it's usually like, either I'm celebrating something, you have to, or I'm just, like, really treating myself. And I can only handle it once because it's so intense. And every time I regret it. But the longing that I have for their fresh, just straight up donut dipped in this butter honey sauce, and it's fresh out of that fryer. And I literally can't eat any other donuts. It's not worth it.

That's Gordo's. Gourdo's is next level to another level.

Even people that don't like donuts like Gordo's.

You have to.

Thank you for reminding me of this.

You're welcome. You're welcome. You can go treat yourself. I won't be able to get over.

It until I go eat one now.

I love it. Well, hey, that was a fun way to start an episode. All right, so for those who don't know, what is noonday collection? Jessica?

Well, we are a social impact fashion brand, and we are creating opportunities for artisans that live in really vulnerable parts of the world, many of whom have been on the news this even the last few months. Places like Haiti and Afghanistan and India, Peru, and we create a marketplace for those beautiful products, everything from bags and candles to earrings and necklaces. And that Marketplace is created both through our online website and through our network of ambassadors that are our entrepreneurs that are earning an income while making an impact in the world.

I love it. Give us an idea of the scale and the impact of the business thus far.

Oh, gosh. Well, we are 11 years in, so it's pretty amazing to be a decade in. And we, we started off with two entrepreneurs in Uganda who were extremely poor, literally didn't have a house, and their kids weren't in school, and they started to make some jewelry for us. And now it's scaled to thousands of artisans around the world. And, you know, the impact is not just in those numbers, but really in we partner with 30 different artists and businesses, and it's the people that lead these companies that have been able to really scale themselves and also find other buyers for their products so that they are now middle class, raised up managers and are really operating viable businesses in their countries. And they really are leaders that are transforming their communities.

I love that. I love the way you guys measure impact. So I'd be curious to hear you talk a little bit about your path prior to noonday, because you talk about this in your book Imperfect Courage. It's not the typical founder story that people would expect. Talk about how all this happened.

Yes. I mean, prior to noonday. It's so interesting because now, of course, in retrospect, I can see that nothing that I've ever done has been wasted. But at the time, every time I was doing a certain job or starting something, I'm like, what's the purpose of this? You know? So I majored in Latin American studies. I moved overseas to work in Guatemala, moved back to Austin, worked for a stint at a jewelry store for a year, which felt completely random and started to flip houses, got into interior design, and I got my master's in education, led a mentoring program for youth. I mean, I just kind of dabbled throughout my 20s and early 30s and then middle school 30s or early 30s. My husband and I, we had two children the biological way. But we had met during that stint when I had lived overseas and we were working for an organization called Food for the Hungry International. And during that time, we didn't know how transforming it would actually be, but our eyes were open to how the people that we saw emerge out of poverty. A lot of it was through entrepreneurship, and we saw the impact of that, and that began us on this thought journey of what are viable solutions to create opportunities for people living in more vulnerable places in the world and more vulnerable times in their Lives and entrepreneurship, we saw, could be a pathway for that. And that's also when we began to learn more about the orphan crisis. And many years later, when we began our family, we had our two wonderful biological children. And I really didn't want to go through pregnancy again. And it just seemed like international adoption was really, really what God was leading us to. So we began this international adoption journey and decided to adopt from a small country in East Africa, Rwanda. And as many listeners might know, international adoption can be quite expensive. Yeah, we had a little nest egg set aside for that adoption. This was during my house flipping stint. Okay, so that we're flipping houses. We probably have five houses with no DOC loans. You know, this is before the whole housing meltdown. Yeah, yeah.

Interesting.

And we were on our way into this adoption, had already identified where, who, all of that when the housing market crashed. And you did not want to be working in the housing market when the housing market crashed. And suddenly that little nest egg that we thought, oh, this is going to support the rest of our adoption journey was paying the grocery bills. And soon we were going into debt. And that is when we realized I needed to do something in order to create a financial opportunity, because we didn't want to let finances get in the way of growing our family and really doing what we felt God had led us to do. So I had some friends at the time living in Uganda, and these friends of mine were friends back from my Food for the hungry days. And they had been convicted of the same thing. They had felt that that entrepreneurship could be this way to create a pathway out of poverty for people. So they were living in Uganda just doing a bunch of different businesses and helping people scale up everything from a plumbing company to a mosquito spraying company. And one of those businesses was an artisan business. And there was this young couple, Jolly and Daniel. I referred to them earlier that we started with these two artisans and they were living in Uganda, and my friends saw so much potential in them, they just lacked access to a marketplace. So when we were on a trip exploring adoption, we reconnected to my friends and they threw this idea out to me, why don't you sell these goods, these artisan goods? And I laughed at them. And I kind of rolled my eyes in my head and going through my mind was, are you kidding me? I have so much going on. I've got two kids, I've got real estate. Now we're adopting. But then fast forward a few months later when we found ourselves cornered by courage and literally felt backed up against the Wall. I remember just that feeling. And I remembered that conversation with my friends living in Uganda. And so I texted them and said.

Hey, this doesn't sound as crazy anymore.

It doesn't sound as crazy anymore. And they said, we would love to just give you this product because we've actually already paid for it in advance. And it's just sitting in a storage unit. And I drove to the storage unit. I dusted it all off. I made my home a beautif little store and invited a bunch of friends over. And that, unbeknownst to me, is the night that launched Noonday Collection.

I love it. And as an adoptive father of a third child, I love it all the more. It's part of the reason why I love your story, that adoption was kind of the impetus.

It is the impetus. It is. How old are your kids?

I was seven, five and one year old.

Oh, I love that.

They're fun ages. How old are your kids, Jessica?

They are 12, 13, and 15.

Okay. All right. So a little bit further down the line. Yeah. So I want to go back to something you said before. This idea that nothing in your story had been wasted. And I think it's easier to see now, obviously, how the common thread that tied all these experiences together and what the Lord was preparing you to do in Noonday Collection. But I gotta imagine a lot of listeners are sitting here right now listening to this episode back. I have no idea how my past connects together. What do you want to say to them?

I would say, first of all, that it takes a lot of tries. I think that we have a linear idea of what success is, especially in America. And I was never one of those that. I mean, even my kids. Now I have one in high school, and she's like, where do I go to school? And what do I major in? And I'm like, oh, my gosh. I don't think it's really going to matter. I mean, it just. It doesn't matter to that many people unless you just have a very narrow, amazing, and exclusive gift set. Right, Right. I was about to say, yeah, a neurosurgeon. That's so funny. Otherwise, life is just about trying and falling down and getting back up and trying again and what you're doing now. I mean, in fact, we just had these new neighbors that move in next door, and turns out he's an entrepreneur. And we've been hanging out for a couple months in our front yard, and turns out we have mutual friends. And so I texted their mutual friends that night and said, oh, my Gosh, listen to who moved in next door. And she sent me back a photo of our neighbor, this guy, winning an Olympic gold alongside Michael Phelps, and said, well, did he tell you that he's a gold Olympic medal swimmer? And I'm like, no, he has definitely left that out of the story.

He's not wearing his Olympic gold medal in the front yard. This is crazy. I think I would do that. I think I'd wear that thing everywhere.

Right, right. But, you know, it's just. It's just what we are doing now doesn't mean we're going to be doing it forever. And if we're not doing it forever, it doesn't make us a failure. You know, we've got to learn that trying out our passions, our gifts, that is part of the journey. Right? It's. It's about being focused more on the journey and on faithfulness for that season than it is on a point of arrival. And I used to live, especially after starting noonday, and it gets. It's just so hard to build a business. And I thought there was going to be this point of arrival where we would arrive and we'd be at this certain revenue stream or we'd have the right team and I'd be tralala off into the sunset. And I'm still waiting on that, you know. And so I've just had to really surrender this idea that there is a point of arrival and operate more from a place of being really faithful and knowing that no matter what, Jesus is my reward. Hmm.

Amen. Well said. We talk a lot about mastery isn't a destination. The world's most masterful performers in any vocation don't believe they're masterful. That's the whole point. Right? It is this constant humility, this constant belief that better is possible and that the journey is kind of the point. And the deliberate practice that comes along.

The way, that's where mastery is developed, is in the day, in, day out practice of it all. And often, many masters are at a place of plateau for so long until they get that incremental boost where those practices enable them to go to that next level.

Or to borrow a phrase from yours a few minutes ago that I loved, they're forced and they're cornered into courage. They're cornered by courage. Unpack that a little bit more. What did that feel like for you? What do you mean by that exactly? How do you see the benefits of being cornered by courage? Take this wherever you want it.

Well, I do think that it is in our breakdowns that lead to our breakthroughs. And that sounds so cliche, but I mean, it's true. Often it's suffering. Right. That brings us to our knees and helps us to really have to do something differently in our lives. And I look back on that time and you know, financially we had a mission to grow our family through adoption and we didn't have a way. And I think about going in, we had this little cushy nest egg and thought, oh, we're going to be able to just adopt and not have to raise money. Like what we had to do when we worked for Food for the Hungry. It's like I had no desire to go back to that. And yet, you know, God's like, well, instead you're going to go ask people to buy accessories.

Right? Out of your home?

Yeah, out of my home. Which is what I did like the whole following year, just asking people, hey, will you gather friends in your home? And I mean, I traveled all over with my jewelry, you know, just ringing in the back of my trunk and I would couch surf on strangers couches, but I didn't care. I was like, just buy this jewelry. And I think that it often takes suffering and that feeling like you are cornered and there's only way out and it's up. Right? It's, it's looking for that possibility and being able to create a new future with God because we are his co creators and he just so delights when we create with him in joy and in love. I mean, it's such an act of love when we create something and build something new in the world. But I mean, it usually, at least for me, comes from breakdowns that enable me to kind of go, okay, I gotta go do something differently.

Yeah. But I love the construction that you have outlined in the book in your great podcast. This idea that it's not perfect courage. Right. It's imperfect courage. You're never 100% certain of anything. Right. Unpack this idea a little bit more. What do you mean by going scared? And this concept of imperfect courage.

Yeah, yeah. You know, I used to think that fearlessness was another point of arrival. And I thought that courage meant fearlessness. And courage belonged to the heroes. Courage belonged to Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks and the firefighters that rescued all the people during 9 11. And the military goes in and saves people in Afghanistan. And courage was a term that felt very far off from me and how I was living. And that night when I had invited a bunch of friends into my home, I remember standing in my living room and Looking around and seeing piles of jewelry on the dining table and pillowcases with zebras on them on the couch. And not to mention, I was selling my clothes and grandma's dishes because I was on a mission and we needed money in order to complete this adoption. And I thought, oh, my gosh, I look really desperate. And also, I bet no one's gonna come, and then I'm just gonna feel alone and desperate. And I do believe one of our biggest fears. And since then, I've gotten to know the work of Kurt Thompson, who you saw me speak with at Praxis, and he's a dear friend of mine. And so much of his work is about knowing that we're never alone. And this idea that most of our fear comes from this idea that we're going to be in shame and by ourselves. And that's the story of Genesis, right? Like, that is what happened. Immediately. Eve and Adam went and hid, and they were alone in their shame. And that is our worst nightmare as human beings, because we were created for the exact opposite. We were created for attachment and perfect connection with one another and with God and with creation. And that's why Jesus came and announced this whole new story that now we as Christians get to step into. So I'm standing in my living room, I'm looking around, and I am imagining my future, and I am in shame, and I'm alone, and I'm a loser. And we often do project futures like that because when neurobiologically, we go towards fear. And I remember standing there and thinking, oh, maybe this is what courage is. Courage is feeling all these fears and not canceling and just going scared. And my worst fears didn't come to fruition. You know, people came and people shopped, and people said, I'll open my home, because I love this jewelry. It's so beautiful. And I'd love to. To introduce my friends to this. And that is really. It was noonday was birthed in community, and I am such a big believer of community. And I believe that when we're most scared and we're feeling most shame, it's because we really are alone. And that's where we are invited to walk with other people. And, you know, a big part of my story, too, is taking on a business partner. And about a year after starting noonday, and now we've been together for 10 years, building this business together. And I'm so grateful to not have that lonely at the top feeling, because I truly believe in a life of collaboration and that that's really where the fun is.

I love that. I'm curious if you think Christ followers have unique resources to go scared.

Well, you would think.

One would think, right?

I mean, that's the thing. Because our fears and anxieties, fears, doubts, it's all about projecting a future where we are alone. We're afraid. We're all of these things. And as Christians, we know our outcome. Yeah, get Jesus. We get Jesus and we get a father who looks us in the eyes every day, and we have his complete attention at all times. And we have the Holy Spirit who lives and moves in us and through us to act according to his ways in the world. And so in so many ways, yes, my desire is that Christians would be the biggest risk takers in the world because at the end of the day, we actually are super secure in our future. And fear is really about feeling insecure in our future. So I laugh because I think, gosh, I want to be one of those. But in reality, in my embodied experience, I tend to go through to fear a lot, you know, and part of me is still wrestling through that because I just want my automatic response to be one of faith and trust and God. But you've got me and you've proven yourself a million times. So why am I anxious again? And yet this is the work of picking up our cross and choosing to trust even in the midst of our fear and lean into others so that we can borrow courage and borrow faith when we need it. And I know I have a group of friends right now who is carrying me in a lot of ways. And I tell them often, you know, I think about the man who was paralyzed and his friends that lowered him through the roof into Jesus lap so that he would be healed. And I wonder about him. And I think, was he so discouraged at the time and he. Had he given up hope? He's like, oh, man, I've been paralyzed. Like, yet again, you're going to try something else. But that didn't matter. Like, his friends still lowered him down and their faith is what put him in that position to be healed. And again, that's where I just think that community and friendship and leaning into others is really the call of the Christian in particular. And maybe that's, you know, when you say, are we more resourced than other people that don't know God? And yeah, I mean, God calls us into a level of community where he said, like, the world's gonna know who I am through your unity and through how you are showing oneness in how you're living Your lives with one another and that resource that we're given.

Yeah. We have the church, right? The global church, the local church. I think we also have an example of a Savior who can sympathize with our weaknesses. I don't know if this is a stretch, but, you know, look at the Garden of Gethsemane. Jesus before his crucifixion. I don't know that he had perfect, what we would call perfect courage going to the cross. He sweat blood, right? But because he did, if you could say this, go scared, we can. And if we fail, we'll still have the security of salvation and God's love. Right? I love how Tim Keller put it once. He said, you know, you've been saved through a dying sacrifice, so you're free to be a living one. Right? Jesus went scared, so we can go scared to do good works that bring him great glory.

Right.

I want to get your take on two scriptures that I think relate to risk. Seemingly contradictory, but I want to hear your take. So Luke 9, Jesus sends his disciples out, right? And he says in verse three, take nothing for the journey, right? No staff, no bag, no bread, no money, no extra shirt. So essentially, risk it all. But then Paul says in First Timothy 5, 8, anyone who does not provide for their relatives and especially their own household is denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. How do you hold passages like these together? Right. There is a sense that we're called to provide for our households. Now, we all have way too high standards for, I think, what that includes. But how do you hold those things together? We're called to provide for our families, and at the same time, we're called to risk. How do you and your husband and your family think about this?

I mean, it really comes down to wisdom. And wisdom is what will guide us. And we're promised that when we ask, God will give us wisdom. And there is risk, ignorant risk, and then there's also measured risk that's done in the context of wisdom and in community. And at the end of the day, God's grace will always be enough. And I think I feel like that's holding up kind of two polar opposites. But I do feel like there's this place where God's asked us to walk in his spirit and wisdom and encourage.

No, that's good. Discerning scripture, being in community, just making a choice. You talked a few minutes ago. You mentioned dignified work. You're talking about the impact of noonday. You stress that you guys are creating dignified Work, dignified jobs. How do you define dignified work? What does that look like?

I like to lean into my friend Andy Crouch, who wrote. He's written many books, but Playing God is one of my favorites. That really moved me. And he really talks about how flourishing is human. Flourishing is creating a space for humans to be human. And when I think of what it means to be human, I think of what it means to go on a date with my husband. What does it mean to throw a graduation party for my 8th grader? What does it mean to have a birthday coming up and I can bake a cake and celebrate? And yet that is not the reality of millions of the poor around the world. And many people that we even go and work with have never celebrated a birthday before until now. Their dignified job, making beautiful work for Noonday and other companies has enabled them to do things like go buy a birthday cake for the first time or go on a date with their spouse. So when I think of dignity, I think of that. What does it mean to have a job and live a life that enables you to express your humanness in that garden like way that God created us to be?

That's beautiful. I love that. Makes me excited for what Isaiah promises in Isaiah 65, that one day on the new earth, everyone in God's eternal kingdom will have dignified work.

Right.

We will not labor in vain. So yeah, what you're doing with Noonday, it's beautiful. This is wonderful. You're pointing to that future when the problem of undignified work will be eradicated. It's promised to us right there, Isaiah 65. We will plant vineyards. We will build houses and live in them. We will not labor in vain. For me, that's one of the most beautiful promises in all scripture about our eternal dwelling with God. We're going back to Eden.

Well, it's even. Not even just not laboring in vain. But then how many people are actually exploited in their places of work? And in Uganda and Haiti, we hear many stories about people who actually might go lay bricks for a week in construction or a woman who might go wash someone's clothes and then never get paid. And then of course, we work with women who have been formerly trafficked. And so I do think that is Satan's. Such a big part of his scheme is to exploit our work. And that's the dark side of work where God just wants to redeem that. And I feel like Noonday is a part of partnering with God and redeeming what he always said was good. I Mean, in that garden work was good. We were called to cultivate. I mean, we were asked to work before the fall. And so it is part of God's good plan to have our vocations matter in this life.

I can't imagine that the last year has been easy for you. The last two years. I mean, you're running a business where there's a lot of in person events selling jewelry. I'm sure there's been a lot of unrest obviously in Afghanistan, but in other areas in which you guys work with these artisans. What's the Lord showing you over the last couple years?

I in the process of discerning that right now. I feel like 2020 was a really strong year for us. I think people really rallied and felt that empathy for the world and were aware of, gosh, we were in this. It's a global pandemic. We're in this together. And then people suddenly were stuck at home and were spending money online. And we quickly pivoted and our noonday collection ambassadors began to host online events. And people were really longing for connection. So that worked really well. It's just that the longer this goes on, the more that we're seeing social behavior change. People are very tired of the online event. They're fatigued by that, and yet they're not fully comfortable with having people back in their homes, even though maybe they're going to football games and music festivals and such. There is something about a home that we're seeing is more challenging. There's a lot more decision fatigue and more hesitation and people thinking, let's just wait this out. I'd love to have people over to my house, maybe in the spring. So we are seeing a softening in sales that we weren't anticipating because once the vaccine came out last spring, we kind of anticipated things were going to be a lot more, quote, unquote, back to normal. And then the delta variant really threw a wrench in our little noonday plans. So I think that I can be scared sometimes. You know, it's really scary to build something for 11 years and then have sales soften in a way that you were not anticipating. And of course, our softening sales means smaller orders for our artists and partners. So now they're in a really hard place and they've been very much impacted by the lack of tourism. I mean, many of the places where we partner, they rely on tourism. And many of our partners have stores that, you know, is another revenue stream for them, that those stores have completely shut down and have not been a revenue stream for them. So I am grappling right now. Right now is a hard time to be asking me that question because I do feel like we're in this. In my head, I'm just imagining a pruning. Like there's pruning. And I'm just like, okay, but with pruning, you prune in order to grow and sprout new growth. And I do find myself just wanting to look God in the eyes and say, okay, I'm secure, I'm connected, and I want to imagine the possibility and the flourishing that you will continue to have for us. But you know, we're running a business, so we have to make really wise financial decisions and cut back in certain areas of the business that we didn't think we would need to cut back on. And it's a really challenging time. It's nothing. You know, we do these SWOT analysis where you are like coming up with, okay, what are the potential threats in the business? And we, you know, global pandemic just never really came up in one of those executive off sites. So. Yeah, but we're, we're getting through and we have an amazing core of women that is just on mission and on purpose and are continuing to just gather where they can and continue to spread the word about how to become a new day collection ambassador. And it's been amazing. I mean, it's so powerful because when you meet any noonday collection ambassador, even people who have gathered for noonday, what we call noonday hostesses, they're just such avid fans of the brand and really just talk about how it's connected into the world and even connected them to their purpose and even given them job skills that enables them to go on to other jobs out there. So I have a lot of pride in our community and on what this opportunity has done for so many of the people that have been able to, to partake in it.

You should. Well, I'm excited to talk again in a year or two.

Yes. Aren't we all?

Yeah, I, I think so. Let's just fast forward, do the follow up episodes. Yeah, Fast forward.

Yes.

So, Jessica, this show's really about two things we've already talked about. The first, how does the gospel shape what we do, how we do it, why we do it. But it's also about, okay, if we believe our work matters deeply to God's redemptive purposes in the world, we should care about doing it really well.

Right.

And how do we do it really well? And so for you, I think you're A world class founder. I'm curious what you think great founders do that their less masterful counterparts don't do. What's the delta between good and great?

I do think it has to do with care and caring for people's care and treating people with dignity and respect. And we have a stakeholder model at Noonday Collection, not a shareholder model where we have linked prosperity and everyone's success. We're reliant upon one another and in hard times we all suffer and in good times we all feel like we're in that together as well. And I truly think, do you really care about your people? Are you really creating environment for humans to be human? And you know, I was talking about that earlier in relation to the developing world, but certainly there's a lot. We've even become more human in the last two years in the way we've interacted with people and that we, you know, you never thought you'd be sitting on a call with your CEO and their cat jumps in their lap, you know, on zoom. And I think that's all helped. And we've all just, you know, we've walked through grief together, we walk through schooling decisions together, just racism. I mean, there's just been so many things that we have sussed out together. And I think that true leaders really do have a compassionate care for the people that are in their sphere of influence.

I agree. Practically. How have you guys linked, as you say, linked the prosperity of all the stakeholders of Noonday?

Well, I mean, even at the beginning when so many people were buyers were pulling out of orders with artisan partners, you know, we committed to staying the course with them and we committed to pre buying certain raw materials. And so we really do partner with them in how they run their businesses. And it's as simple of a thing as doing surveys where you are continually asking for feedback. I think feedback is really, really important and really creating a space where people's ideas are heard and implemented and where feedback is taken really seriously. And you know, this whole business would not have continued if it wasn't linked to, I think, you know, Jalia and Daniel, my original artisan partners in Uganda and their success. And I went back and visited them. I've gone several times over the years, but I remember taking Jack to meet them for the first time. I just remember saying thank you because if you wouldn't have had beautiful product for me to sell, then I wouldn't have Jack. And just he's my son and you know, they're saying thank you to me and I feel that so much we take ambassadors around the world. We have not been able to do that in two years, but we take hundreds of women around the world to actually meet these artisans. And that is where you really see that stakeholder model take root, is when a mom thanks another mom for, hey, because you're making these beautiful things, I'm able to send my kid to get him extra tutoring help. And. And then the artisan's able to say, well, thanks to you selling this, I'm able to send my child to school. And so there is this idea of linked success.

Yeah, no, I love that so much. Hey, we talk a little bit on the podcast about daily habits and routines, and I heard you. I think it was the keynote you gave at the Praxis event we were both at. You were talking about why so many of us fear the routine of silence and solitude and making space to be quiet. And if I'm remembering correctly, you're basically saying we're afraid of what we might find in that silence. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Yeah, I think especially if you have an entrepreneurial bent or you're just kind of a high capacity, highly productive person. We like to be on the move, and sometimes we are chronically anxious and on the move because we're, in fact, hiding from some of the scarier feelings that we don't want to feel, like grief or sadness and pain. And I think that it's when we can get silent and can lean into some of these harder spaces and where we can get healed, then we can operate more from our whole selves instead of being busy and productive and chasing after this dream of success in this anxious way. But instead from a very grounded place, be able to approach our work from really being faithful to what God's called us to do. And, yeah, I've definitely embraced the practice of silence and solitude. And even just my prayer life is a lot more quiet than it used to be. Where.

Yeah, talk about that.

Yeah, yeah, I heard a definition of prayer. Ronald Rolhauser. He says that prayer is relaxing into the goodness of God. And I just love that. That's God's invitation to us, is literally to take off our burdens, to cast our anxiety. Come to me, all you who are weary. And he is constantly just beckoning us to come and lean in to him. And that truly is his delight when we do that. And so my prayers, a lot of times are just casting my cares onto God and letting myself feel felt by God and getting to that place of relaxing into who he is. And I'm not doing it the best this week, but that's my goals. This week's been a little rough. I'm, like, convicted as I'm sharing this.

God's like, oh, I do this all the time.

You are preaching to yourself.

Yes. All right, well, let me ask you this. I love that definition of prayer, relaxing into the goodness of God. But I could use those same words to define Sabbath. Do you and your family observe Sabbath? And if so, would you agree with my borrowing of those words as a definition for Sabbath?

Yes, I think that Sabbath is. I think it's the most essential practice for us right now as believers, and it is saving me, which is just the opposite of what you think. You think, well, I can't take a break. I can't rest, and I'm even Sabbathing. Just even in the evenings, we put up a hammock in the front yard and just laying in the hammock and rocking back and forth for 20 minutes while my phone's inside and looking up at the sky and planting my feet on the ground. So, yeah, we. My husband and I, are big believers in Sabbath. These are long discussions between us, but I will tell you that out of this discussion of Sabbath, we actually became members of a boat club here in Austin.

This is awesome.

Which you guys will have to go check out. If you have a local lake that has a boat club, but basically you don't own the boat, which. That does not sound Sabbathy, right? To actually own a boat.

No, no, definitely not. Yeah, yeah.

So you pay a monthly fee, and then you get to reserve a boat from this fleet of boats. And part of us choosing Sabbath was saying, my husband, he is super productive in our home, and it is hard for him to sit still when we're at our house. And so I was like, well, I want to Sabbath, but you're always like, let's get this done and let's get that done. And there's just something about being out in nature and being stuck on a boat where you can't get anything else done. So one of our ways to practice Sabbath is to play on the weekend, and we go out on the lake and just, you know, you can only. It's only about four hours at a time. But, yeah, there is, I believe, a discipline right now in rest and play and celebration. That I'm just doing it. I'm doing it as a discipline. And I think it really matters. I think it really matters for our kids. I have teenagers, and there's sports and Homework and a lot of stress that comes along with all of those things. And we're doing a hard Sabbath this weekend, a longer weekend away, and we're getting off phones and getting into nature. And I think that, yes, that is such a beautiful invitation. You know, I just love that on the first day of humanity, of Adam and Eve's lives, the first day was the rest day.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

It's like God created man and woman, and then he's like, and now we rest.

And now we rest together.

And now we rest.

It took me a long time to make this mental transition of, you know, growing up just viewing Sabbath as this legalistic choreography to viewing it as this day filled with good things from the father that I could enjoy as his child. Right. I love how Kevin DeYoung puts it. He calls Sabbath an island of get to in a sea of have to. I think that's, like, precisely right. It's like, no, it's a day to just enjoy being a child, being content, just enjoying the father's presence and knowing that you are seen and you are loved when you are not doing anything.

Anything.

When you're not doing anything productive towards his aims in the world. I love it so much, and thank you for holding that out as an example for us. I love the boat club idea. Yeah, it's a great idea.

Go join a boat.

All right, Jessica, three questions. We wrap up every conversation with, number one, which books do you tend to recommend or gift most frequently to others?

Well, gosh, gifting, that is a tough one. But I will. I'm just not to bring up Kurt Thompson again, but please, I love Kurt. He for sure is my most gifted, gifted book. And he actually just launched a new book called the Soul of Desire, which is all about discovering the neuroscience of longing, beauty, and community. And it's truly coming at just the most perfect time because it's all about creating out of grief. And I just. I love his work. And the Soul of Shame and Anatomy of the Soul. And then I really like John Mark Comer. He also just released a book.

Yeah, we just had him on to talk about it. It was great. Live no Lies.

Live no Lies. Yeah. So that book we've read as a family, and those are kind of my two Andy Crouch. I mean, it's the people that I've kind of come to know and love that I love. His book Strong and Weak is a really short read that just so succinctly summarizes our calling as Christians. And those are the few that are coming to Mind right now.

I love Strong and Weak. You guys can find all those books and Jessica's, of course, at jordanraynor.com bookshelf okay, Jessica, who do you most want to hear on this podcast talking about how the gospel influences their work? Maybe somebody you've had on your own podcast, Going Scared.

I mean, it doesn't get better than Andy when you're talking about this Andy Crouch.

Yeah, he's the best.

He just does such a good job of speaking to that.

In particular, I love Strong and Weak, but culture makings, my favorite in the Andy canon. All right, in the Andy and the Andy canon. Yeah. One thing from today's conversation you want to reiterate or highlight for our listeners before we sign off?

Yeah, I mean, I'd love to just go back to that place where what you think might be your ending right now is probably your beginning. And. And if you're feeling that sense of being cornered, look up. And God does invite us into a future of possibility and creating beauty with him. And he longs for us to create beauty with him.

Very, very well said. Hey, Jessica, I want to commend you just for the eternally significant redemptive work you do every day. Thank you for creating dignified work for some of the least of these around the world, for modeling God's heart for orphans. I just love your work, guys. You can learn more about jessica@noondaycollection.com or jessica honager.com make sure you get her book Imperfect Courage. Go listen to her podcast Going Scared. Jessica, thanks again for hanging out with me.

Thanks, Jordan.

Man, I love that episode. I hope you guys did, too. Hey, if you get a second, take 30 seconds right now, go leave a review of the Call to Mastery if you're enjoying this content so that we can get this content in the hands of a lot more people, a lot more Christmas, who need to understand that their work matters deeply to God and his redemptive purposes in the world. Thank you guys for listening. I'll see you next week.