Jon Acuff (Author of Soundtracks)

The episode you're about to listen to was released back when the Mere Christians podcast was called the Call to Mastery. Now, if you love Mere Christians, you're still going to love these older episodes because the majority of each conversation focuses on how the gospel influences the work of our guests. With that disclaimer out of the way, please enjoy the episode.

Foreign.

Hey everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I'm Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. Every week I bring you a conversation with a Christian who's pursuing world class mastery of their craft. We talk about their path to mastery, their daily habits, and how their faith influences their work. Today's guest is my friend John Acuff. He's the New York Times best selling author. Finish, Start, do over and one of my all time favorites. Stuff Christians like. He's a great writer, maybe an even more exceptional speaker on stage. He was named one of Inc. Magazine's Top 100 Leadership Speaker Speakers on Earth. Guys, I promise this is going to be the funniest episode of the Call to Master we've ever produced. We talked about everything from Yanni to Chris Pratt. We talked about the three questions that John asks of every soundtrack that enters his brain. All this comes directly from his new terrific book soundtracks. And we talked about what we're teaching our kids implicitly and explicitly, explicitly about work and how that's going to shape their excitement and their ambition to do great work in the future. You guys are gonna love this terrific episode with my friend John Acuff. John, thanks for being here.

Thanks for having me today.

So do you know what I was listening to as I prepped for this conversation?

Johnny Live at the Acropolis.

Live at the Acropolis, Yeah. Because quote, bold statement in your book, the best album of all time. Are you going to stand by that?

It's not close for a second. I mean, somebody I'm sure is going to say like Born to Run or like, I don't know, Joshua Tree. That's great. But yeah, if you haven't heard that, I don't know what you're doing with your life or your ears.

I hadn't heard it since my parents like cassette player in our Toyota Previa growing up.

They sound awesome by the way. If they had that album.

Yeah, 100% they do.

You probably are not in therapy because they probably made.

No, no, no, I'm not, I'm not. Because of Yanni. It was terrific. And I loved the little fleeting story you mentioned in the book about this album and what it says about risk. Can you share that?

Dude, it was my favorite thing to write because I've been dying. Like, this is my seventh book because I'm very accomplished. Of course. I have been waiting to talk about that for so long and I finally had something where it fit. It's a hilarious story the way it's told, but the reality is, like, he put on a concert in the Acropolis. And so the joke I did was like, your HOA won't let you change your mailbox. Imagine trying to like do a concert in a temple from the Stone Age or the Bronze Age. What I read about it was it cost $2 million to put on and he did the money himself. And at the time his net worth was $2,050,000. So I love it. You do the math. So, yeah, I just, I joke about it, but I did write, like, I've written so much to that album. You know, I write to like moody, ambient, no lyric kind of stuff that album. And then occasionally he'll just riff in the middle with some positive statement. So, yeah, I just. That he pulled it off and that it catapulted him to like, new stratospheres. I absolutely, yeah. If you said like one concert you could go to, like, that would have been amazing. I probably would still be wearing the T shirt.

The best concert I've ever been to. Kind of similar. Not as cool as the Acropolis. It was by happenstance. I was in Rome with some friends walking down the street. I'm a huge Billy Joel fan. And we pass a poster and all I can read is Billy Joel, Bryan Adams. The rest of it is in Italian. And some angel of an Italian walked by. He was like, do you want me to translate that for you? We're like, yeah. He's like, oh, Billy Joel and Brian Adams were playing a free concert at the Coliseum tomorrow night.

That's amazing.

It was unbelievable. 500, 000 Italians singing Piano man in English. I'm weeping like a teenage girl.

That's unbelievable. Yeah, that's right. That's hard to beat that, really.

They have a life of the grapples. Could do it. So, John, I've been a fan of yours since, man. How long ago did you publish stuff Christians like? That was the first thing.

2010 was the one that came out. So, yeah, 11 years ago. I know, right?

Was that book before or after you decided, I'm going to be a full time speaker author?

Oh, that was way before, you know, I got paid $30,000 for that book. So, like, which again, awesome. Like, I never said that's amazing. That anybody pays me anything for my writing is I feel thrilled about. But, you know, Take home was like 13,000 and so, like, no. There was no part of me. I was like, I've made it. I'm now going to be full time. No. And at the time, I'd spoken a handful of times, but no. It really wasn't until going on eight years now that I started my own company. So that was where I was really like, okay, you know what? I'm going to do this. I feel like I've got the pieces in place. I feel like I can do this. I'd spent three years learning from Dave Ramsey on how he did things. I felt like I had a pretty good foundation. But I would say it's been the last eight years that I've really said, this is it.

You and I are both doing this work creating content full time now. And I know it's a dream for a lot of people listening, right? But it took us both a long time to get there. Took you what, six years to become a full time speaker? Is that right?

Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, like, it's hard to even say, like, to get there, like I, you know, like, because like in 2020 when everybody was like, all live events are canceled. You have to find another there and you have to kind of figure out something, okay, what am I going to do as I kind of stuff opens up? I'm going to do virtual events. So, yeah, I mean, it's taken me a long time. Whenever somebody's like, I want to do exactly what you do. I don't tell them usually how long it would take because I don't know if it would have encouraged me to know that. In 2008, when I got my first speaking gig, if somebody had said, It'll take you 13 years to get to this place, like, I don't know that I would have find that encouraging. Usually when somebody tells me, I remember I did a book signing with John Maxwell, which in hindsight was a mistake. Not because he's an awesome person. It's just like, if you want to be invisible, do a book signing next to John Maxwell. I could have been on fire and no one would have put me out with one of his books. And so it's just like a hundred people in line. He's got so many people, they've got like wheelbarrows of John Maxwell books. And then like, nobody's in my line. And they'd step out briefly because they don't lose their spot and be like, I love your blog. Like, not enough to buy one of your products, but I love you. And this dude patted me on the.

Back that stuff for free. Keep it up.

Exactly. Yeah. Somebody patted me on the back that I didn't know and said, 10 years, buddy. 10 years. And that wasn't super encouraging. So yeah, it has taken a while, that's for sure. And I'm still working on it.

Of course, we're also working on it. How did you make the leap though? Like, talk to the technicalities that. Were you saving money from a full time job or freelance?

I was doing side hustle like crazy. I was getting up at 5am I was writing my blog. I was, you know, I had freelance clients. No, like, for me it was like once I discovered the faucet that is side hustle, I was like, why would I ever not have this faucet to some degree? Like, if I could teach my kids, like, hey, always have a good side hustle, that would be one of the lessons that I would want them to leave the house with. I was writing jingles for like tire companies. So, like, it's hard to rhyme radial in a barbershop quartet jingle. But I figured it out. I did laser hair removal ads, like tons of those. So like, which I know a ton about, obviously.

Wow. Right, Right.

And so I'm doing all this side hustle. I'm a copywriter, so. Yeah. And then I'm going, okay, well, where's our financial Runway? Like, I'm a big believer that a lot of people, like, they cripple their dreams because they saddle every bill with it right out of the gate. And so you force your dream to be a home run before it's had time to even learn how to walk. And so, yeah, I was doing a bunch of stuff on the side as I kind of prepared and kind of, you know, tested the waters. But somebody told me, you'll never get the boat right up against the pier. There's always going to be some degree of jump part of it for me.

So I was running this fairly well funded tech startup before I made the leap to go writing full time. I don't think you can fully see what the next thing is until you make the leap.

Right.

Like, it's not just like Financial Runway, but at some point you just got to take a leap of faith back. I'm gonna kind of figure this out.

Yeah. And your message is gonna crystallize as you share it. Like, that's the other thing. You don't have this fully formulated. Like, I can't stand. And if I don't think you say this, but, like, I can't stand when people go figure out your niche first. Like, I don't think that's true. Like, because it puts this incredible pressure to be, like, I only talk about hair products for, like, redheaded uncles. And that's my Instagram platform. Like, it's taken me years to realize, you know what I care about. I care about helping people finish their goals. And sometimes that looks like career goals. And I write a book called D.O. sometimes it's about finishing the last part of a goal. It's called Finish. Sometimes it's about how overthinking gets in the way of that. And it's called Soundtracks. But I didn't start out to go. That's what I care about. I did a bunch of things. I was like, oh, wow, I see a through line here. I see a pattern. Like, okay, why don't I own that?

Yeah, you just place a bunch of little bets. You see what works right? And what's bearing fruit. You talked about this a minute ago. I want to go back to it. You love speaking. You love being on stage. That's where you eat. You built this whole business around. Speaking of live events, pandemic happened. What was 2020 like for you?

One of the most important questions I think you can ask yourself during a 2020 or during a change is what would have made this easier? And then you go build that thing. So what would have made this season easier? And you don't shame yourself for not having it, but you go, okay, what would have made it easier? And you build it. So I asked myself that question in March and I realized, you know what, having a YouTube channel would have made things easier because I would have had an extra revenue stream. I would have been have a studio figure out I would have been better on camera. Okay, let me go do that. Having a podcast would have made things easier. So I launched. You know, all it takes is a goal podcast. And so I really started to build some other stuff, knowing public speaking live events are coming back. I have a live event, like in two weeks from now. Like, I can't wait. I'd be on a plane tomorrow if somebody had a live event like I am. And then I learned how to do virtual. So I partnered with my speakers bureau. We have a studio, we have a full time person, that producer on our side. So I really learned how to do virtual events. So, yeah, I just had to. It was roll up the sleeves time, you know, and go, okay, what are some. Like, the other thing I like to say is, like, what's the thing you told yourself someday I'll do? Because guess what today is someday.

Yeah, like, can't go speak.

Right, Exactly.

I loved in soundtracks how you explained the difference between reacting to problems and responding to problems. Explain the difference for our audience. And how did that play out for you last year?

I mean, reacting like, and I did react. There were definitely like at least six to eight weeks of just grumpy frustration. Like, man, it'll be done by the spring. Man, it'll be done by the summer. But responding is when you start to build. I think reacting has a degree of panic associated with it and. And responding has a. Okay, I'm gonna have to plan. I'm gonna have to do some things. I'm gonna have to let go of some entitlement. I think when you respond, you let go of entitlement. Like, when you react, there's sometimes a thought of like, I shouldn't have to do this. This is like, I used to be so much easier before. And respond, I go, okay, like, here's where we are. Let's figure it out. Let's plan. Let's figure out how to have some peace around this. Let's do the best we can. It's much more thoughtful. It's much more deliberate. It's honest about the challenges. That was one of the things Tom Zigler in the book, when we talked about his dad, Zig Ziglar, talked about. Like, you don't ignore the honesty of the problem. If you pretend there's not a problem, you don't get to fix it. And so you admit that there's a problem. Like, there was no degree of hustle or like, good attitude that would make people schedule live events. Like, there was nothing I could do that would go, oh, don't worry, don't cancel that 600 person event. I've got a positive attitude like, what I can't do. So here's the difference. I can be really furious about that, or I can go, you know what? I bet that if I did a bunch of Zoom pop ins for free to clients that have been amazing to me, like, that would encourage them. It might turn into some other business, but it would definitely encourage them and it give me a chance to do 15 minutes on Zoom as a practice. It's all win. So let me respond that way.

Is that what you did? You reached out to your best clients like, hey, can I, like, hop in for 15 minutes?

Yeah, can I hop in for 15 minutes and encourage the team? And they'd be like, oh, my gosh, that's amazing. Let's do it. And then I get to super serve them. And it didn't all the time turn into something, but a lot of times it turned into, hey, you know what? We're thinking about doing a digital summit. That idea you shared with 15 of us, would you share it with 1500 of us? And I was like, yeah, I totally would do that. Let's do it.

Serve, serve, serve, serve, serve.

Yeah, that's the hard thing is, like, it's not complicated, dude. It's really not. But it's hard.

It's not complicated, but it's hard, right? Exactly.

You got to put your ego aside. You got to do so much grunt work. You got to beat that voice in your head that's like, you should be doing something more important right now. Like, this is just block and tackle. And, like, no do block and tackle matters.

It totally matters. It's funny we're having this conversation today. I spent most of my day today interacting with 200 people who joined my launch team. We just did a new round of recruitment for my launch team. We have a perennial launch team for my books. We don't. We don't recreate it with every book. And I sent individual messages to all those people, right? Like, it doesn't scale, but it matters, right? It's not glorious and I'm exhausted, but that's what it takes, right?

I mean, I think that's the challenge. And we don't talk about those things. I think because we live in such a scale, it. It's funny. I. I had a friend the other day who was like, man, that guy makes $80,000 a month on his, like, Facebook, whatever. And I was like, well, how many hours a month does he work on it? He's like, I don't know. And I was like, that's the problem, you know, the 80,000. You don't know that. Like, maybe he spends 40 hours a week on it, and it's very difficult. And Maybe he spent 10 years to get to 80,000. But we tell these stories even though we know, like, people say all the time, there's no overnight success. There's no get rich quick scheme. We still believe there could be. And we, you know, so you. We need moments where Jordan Rayner says, hey, yeah, I spent, you know, all afternoon texting people encouraging phrases.

It's Warren Buffett, right? Like, nobody Wants to get rich slow.

That's the problem. No, no, it's not rich.

It's impact. But you get what I mean.

Yeah, totally.

I learned something new about you in this book. You mentioned that you've tried to model your career after Seth Godin. I thought that was interesting. Why Seth?

He's really deliberate about scale. He could do 500 speaking events a year easy. And he's really deliberate about going, no, this is the amount I do. This is the work I do. I'm consistent with what I write. He could run a 200 person team. But I spent two days in his office. He did this. The future of publishing Mastermind. And I applied and got to go do it, and it was awesome. And so I got to see his team. It's not a massive team. It's a deliberately sized team. So I just really respect that because I can sometimes get distracted by the monster of more and go, I need to have this. I need to have this. I need to have this. And I've just always really respected his attention to craft, his attention to consistency, and his attention to scale.

I really respect people who make the deliberate choice to keep teams small. Because I do think there's this culture of just addiction to growth of revenue, addiction to growth of teams. You and I've exchanged emails about this before. You've been like, yeah, I'm trying to keep my team small. Right. Like me.

And if you. I mean, like, I've come to the point where Carrie Newhoff, I'm sure he's a mutual friend.

I love Carrie.

Yeah. Said that his thing is like, let God determine the size. And so I'm trying to live out of that because, like, I sometimes play it small out of fear. So I'm trying to find the spot where it's faith based, but it's still not like, numbers for numbers sake, but that it's, you know, like, okay, like, I'm gonna. I always go back to the story, the talents. The guy who got the five talents didn't go, I can't believe that you got 10. I'm gonna obsess about that. He crushed the five. Like, he immediately put it to work. So, like, whether I get five or 10, and there's been so many things where I'm like, I can't believe I get to do this job. Like, it's amazing. I want to be faithful to that. So I'm actually at a time where I am adding people, opening my company to other voices, and really kind of sharing what I do so that I can Reach more people. But I want to do it in a way where it's not just because I'm like, I need to have 100 staff members. I would suck at 100 staff members. So, like, I don't need to do that.

You were really kind to endorse my last book, Master of One. And in that book, I talk about these three keys to mastering anything vocationally. Right? Number one's apprenticeships, either direct or indirect. Number two is purposeful practice, just putting in the work. And then number three is like, discipline over time, like commitment, faithfulness to something for a long period of time. Which of those three keys have you found to be most critical for you?

Personally, I think the discipline over time, and it's the hardest one for me. I've had the good fortune of being around great leaders. You know, I talk about Brad lomenick. I don't know, 13, 14 years ago, like, when I had stuff Christians like, and it was just kind of starting to grow, he would let me take him out to, like, Chili's and ask him questions. I had no money, and I was like, can I take you out to dinner and ask you questions? I'd be like, wow, I balled out tonight at Chili's with Brad. And so, like, I've had the benefit of that. I used to work closely with Dan Cathy from Chick Fil A, so I got to see how a billionaire there interacts with people and how you serve. People certainly learned a ton working for Dave Ramsey and Reggie Joyner and, you know, all these different leaders. So that one I think I've been really fortunate with. I would say the discipline over time is the one that I think is really valuable and also really challenging.

Yeah, I think it's challenging for anybody. By the way, Brad's the best.

Yeah, he's awesome. I did his podcast the other day. It's so fun. And he's helping with my podcast. He helps with sponsors with my podcast. So that's a working relationship that I still feel really grateful to have.

It's one of my favorite episodes of this podcast is Brad's, which released a while back. I think another key to mastering whatever you do vocationally is. Is kind of what you're talking about in this newest book, soundtracks. It's the ability to, as the apostle Paul said, take thoughts captive, to distinguish between bad mental soundtracks, as you call them, and the good ones. And I really liked the three questions that you encourage readers to ask of every soundtrack. Can you share those with us?

Sure. The first question is, is it true Is this thing that I'm hearing true? You know, that can be simple if you're a 15 year old and you tell yourself, if I get a bad grade, I'll never get into college. Like as a freshman, if I get a bad grade on this thing, I'll never get in college. Is that true? That's not true. The second question is, is it helpful? Is it helpful? Does it move you forward so you might hear a soundtrack that says doing a podcast is hard? That might be true. Is it helpful though? Does it pause you or push you forward? Does it stop you or encourage you? And then the third question is, is it kind? Is it kind to yourself to play that on repeat? And there's so many studies about the importance of kind, repetitive thoughts and what they do for you. So those, to me, if you can ask those questions, you can weed a lot of broken soundtracks and you can also have a litmus test for, okay, this soundtrack is good and helpful. I'm going to deliberately work on that. I always tell people, fear comes free, faith takes work. You don't have to say, today, I'm going to deliberately think of some negative things. You didn't have to tell yourself, I hope. Today at the grocery store, I remember a stupid thing I said in a meeting three years ago that's going to happen. The positive side of thing is where it takes work, it takes being deliberate, it takes being repetitive. And that's a challenge.

Another key to master is just seeking it. We talk a lot about on this podcast seeking out critical and constructive feedback, like proactively seeking it out. And you talked about, I highlighted this and showed it to my wife. I'm like, oh, this is me. You talk about going to your wife with like a new chapter of a book and be like, hey, read this. It should be like, okay, cool. Do you want feedback or do you want compliments? And that's because most of the time I just want compliments. So how have you developed the skill or how are you developing the skill of like, genuinely seeking out feedback rather than stroking your ego?

Well, part of it's being honest, like with yourself. So knowing, okay, I don't want feedback on this thing. Like, I got this thing. I know this. I'm not like. So part of it's being honest. Part of it is going like. I've heard so many people say this, so this isn't my original idea. I've heard Brian Kobbelman say it where you give it at least 24 hours before you share it. When I write something fresh Like, I'm not ready for feedback, so I need to let it sit. I need to think about it a little more before I even send it out into the world or I'll be discouraged. So sometimes it's giving it time. The other is, I think, reminding yourself of the other person's motive. So that's a soundtrack. So, like, if I know I need feedback, I might. And I've done this so many times before. I write on a post it note, you know, this person's goal is that I create an amazing book. Their goal isn't they ruin my day. Their goal isn't they make me find new words and I'm all out of words because those are the best words I had. Like, that's not their goal. Their goal is that this book is amazing. And if I can remind myself of that, it makes it easier to take the feedback. And then also I think whenever it comes to feedback, you have to be willing to give on things and you have to be willing to fight for things. So there has to be sections where you go, you're right, you know what, I'll give on that. Totally. There's other things you have to go, no, I, like that is the thing. And I care about that. And here's why. And if you'll explain why, 90% of the time the person goes, oh, yeah, well, I didn't know that. Or, well, you didn't explain it. You just said, I mean, Anne Lamont talks about that in Bird by Bird, where she had a book that some editor was like, this is terrible. Tell me about the book. And she's like, marched in front of him for two hours, laid out the whole book and he was like, amazing. Do that. You haven't done that yet. Do that. And then the other thing is, if I'm working with my editor, Brian Voss at Baker, and he gives me feedback. Amazing. Because he's an expert. There's experts that it behooves me to listen to. And I need to take that and I need to receive that. I need to ask those experts. But there's also people that if I don't respect their opinion, I shouldn't ask them for their opinion because it's just going to make the relationship awkward because I'm going to be like, no, no, I'm not doing that.

Well, yeah, it's not a good use of their time. It's disrespectful to them to even ask in the first place. Right?

Yeah. So if I do something like that, I'm looking for them to give me compliments or to think I'm like, wow, how vulnerable he is to get feedback. And if I know I'm not going to listen to the feedback, I shouldn't waste either of our time.

Yeah, yeah, I. I haven't showed this on the podcast yet. I sent in my next book with water.

Congrats.

A couple of months ago. Thanks. And it was my first time working with this new editor who's phenomenal. Her name is Becky Nesbitt there in Nashville where you are. And I had a call, Becky, and she gave me these phenomenal notes, and I, like, wasn't in a place to receive them, and I responded really poorly. I talk about this all. I had to call her back later that afternoon, like, hey, I'm sorry. You're world class at what you do. I'm sorry. I want to try that again.

Oh, yeah, I had to apologize to my litter agent.

Yeah, it's like, they want this to be a great book. Writing down their intent. Is it great? So you did this with your literary agent?

Oh, yeah. I mean, I had to say to him during the proposal process, like, I had to apologize multiple times because he would give me feedback and I'd be like, you're wrong. Like, I wouldn't scream, you're wrong. But, like, my attitude definitely said, like, I was like a 12 year old, you know, who was like, I don't want to wear a coat. You're trying to ruin my life by making me wear a coat. So, yeah, I think there, yeah, like, you can do it as perfectly as you want. But I remember there was a book called Death by Suburban that I loved. And my favorite thing in that is he said he prayed that God would take away his anger. And all God did was teach him how to be better at apologizing. And that wasn't the solution he wanted. And I was like, that is legit. And so, yeah, there are moments where, like, you'll do your best and you'll still go, wow, I get to practice apologizing because I need to apologize. That's part of it.

You mentioned Maxwell. I've heard. I've never seen him in action, but I've heard he is constantly writing down ideas. It seems like you do the same thing. I was kind of picking this up as I was reading the latest book. You write down a lot of ideas, a lot of quotes, even if you're not sure how you're going to use them. So as a writer, I'm curious, like, how do you retroactively make creative connections between those ideas or assign relevancy to them. Are you reviewing them Once a quarter.

How does that work for you? Dude? I wish. Like, I always love questions like that. And I love when I hear other authors talk about it. Like, David Sedaris does like diaries, and he does, like. And it sounds amazing. I wish I was like that. I mean, I'm looking at a wall of ideas. I have a huge post it note that kind of like, they're massive. And I've got a bunch of ideas on there, and I don't know if I'll use them a lot. I see one up there that says, fear gets a voice, not a vote. And I've already used that in a speech because I was like, that's a good. Like, the reality is fear does get a voice. People who are like, you could be fearless. I don't believe that because, like, every time you do something slightly bigger than the last thing, there's new fear. And if you tell yourself, no, I'm now fearless, you fail constantly. And so I like the idea of it gets a voice but not a vote. Like, it doesn't get to vote on. Yeah, we shouldn't do that. Because I don't want to make decisions based on fear. And so I have a notebook. A lot of times I keep them there. I've tried so many different systems, but I have a notebook. And my new attitude is I was thinking about this the other day, and I haven't written it down yet. I mean, I've written it down as an idea. I haven't shared it with the public. Is like, I was walking down the street in Tybee Island, Georgia, off the coast of Savannah, and there are all these acorns everywhere. Like thousands of thousands of acorns. And there was one big tree. And I thought, that's, like, ideas. Like, I wonder. I think sometimes we're wrong. Thinking every idea will turn into something. And sometimes it's just like a million acorns. And there's one. One amazing tree. And so I try to capture as many as I can. And some of them turn into something. Some of them are just. They were for that moment. And when I read them again, like, a week later, I'm like, that is crazy town. What does that even mean? But I know if I don't collect them, then I'll never, you know, and the review is the hardest part. To go back to them and say, okay, this has a home. Okay, this is like, I'm looking at my journal right now, number 70, because I number them and When I use them, I'll cross them out. So number 64 was a tweet about that. I owe Funyuns an apology because they're delicious. I decided in like the third grade, they're terrible. And I had like a 30 year absence of our relationship. And then I tried them the other day, like, randomly. I was like, this is fantastic. And so, yeah, I'm not going to put that in a book, but like, I'll put that on Twitter. But then like, idea number 70 is my rep. Secret is 50. So like, I was talking to a campus pastor who was like, man, I've got this new position where I need to speak and do the announcements every Sunday. Like, how do I do that? And I was like, well, here's what you do. It's five minutes. You practice it three times completely before the time you do it on Sunday. And I said, if you do it 52 times a year, you only have 52 practices. If you do it three times per, you get four years of experience in one year. So, like, that's how I look at things. And so I wrote down, all I wrote down was number 70, my rep secret, 52 weeks of Sundays, or you do it three times, which gives you four years in a row. Four years of experience in a one year window. Oh, okay. I might use that in a speech. I might use that on a podcast. I don't know where I'll use it, but I thought it was valuable enough and so maybe I'll develop it.

Yeah, I love it. What does your day look like from the moment you get out of bed to the moment you go back to bed? What's the TikTok of your day?

Well, it's different. It's different on the season. I'm in a book launch season, so there's, you know, I try to not do podcasts when I'm not launching something just because, like, by the way, I.

Stole that idea from you.

Which idea?

I asked you to be on the podcast, I don't know, six months ago. And you like, hey, yes, when my next book is out. And so we've started doing that.

I got, I stole that from every musician and every movie star, Tom Hanks, in a normal year isn't just like, yeah, let's go. I'll go to New York and just talk to Stephen Colbert for an hour. No reason. Like, he's like, yeah, Stephen Gobert is like, what do you have coming out? I'm so excited. I got, you know, big is coming out, whatever. And so like today, every Day is different, but I try to start the mornings fairly similarly where I get up at like 5:45. I make coffee. I help my kids get out the door for school. They're teenagers, so there's not a ton there. But I got to make sure they're up and you know, that they're having breakfast and they're. They've got their stuff. And then I going through the Gospels this year, Annie Downs did that and I thought that was a cool idea. Like, so just all four gospels. So I do like a gospel chapter of the Gospels or two. I'll read a couple pages of a book that I'm reading with a friend. If I'm doing like a water goal, I'll try to drink some water and then I'll try to. I try to write 30 to 60 minutes every day on a future project, not an urgent project. So I'm working on the new book, so I'll write on that. And then I try to do Monday through Wednesday without many meetings. And then Thursday and Friday are a bunch of meetings. And so I find it hard to get back into a writing flow if I have a meeting that kind of is in the middle of things. So I can't, like, if I have a Monday morning meeting at like 10:30, it's hard for me before or after to get into the flow. So I'd rather leave that time open. But then like today I did some podcasts, you know, went to lunch with a friend, went on a walk with my wife, worked on pre sale stuff that I'm trying to get ready. I've got two virtual events tomorrow, so that'll be the shape of that day. So, yeah, it really depends. I wish I had a formula. And I think that we often think people do, but I just don't know. Like, life is way too messy and too fun for that. I want to own the things I can own. But like, I always kind of. I like Laird Hamilton. He's just like the Michael Jordan of surfing. Him and Kelly Slater and Laird, I remember. It's funny the things you remember. In an article for Outside magazine, he was talking about his diet. He's like, yeah, I'm really consistent. Like, he has his own company, Layered Superfood. But he was like, if I have to eat something because I'm traveling, I don't make a big deal about it. He's like, I eat a cheeseburger at McDonald's because that's what I had an option for that day. Like, it's not. He's like, that's going to be my thing that day. And I liked that. Versus, I can go from really not being careful to really perfectionistic. And I'm trying to land in the middle.

We'll shift gears for a minute. Talk about how your faith influences your work. Your dad was a pastor. You obviously have considerable skills as a public speaker. Did you ever think you might be a pastor yourself?

No, I never really thought that. I think a lot of pastors, kids do. It's just natural. I think a lot of times, like JJ Abrams parents worked in Hollywood at like 14, he was interning for Steven Spielberg. So I think it's very natural for you to say, oh, my dad's a plumber, my mom's a dental hygienist, whatever the thing is. But I never really felt that, you know, I didn't even feel like I was going to be communicated from stage. I just knew I really like sharing ideas and wanted to see how that would kind of shake out.

But you've always had a thing with words. You started your writing career really writing for the church. I mean, stuff Christians like. The blog, the book was obviously aimed at the church, but I love that you made this pivot to this broader market. Can you talk about your thought process there, about starting with that smaller market of just Christians and expanding more broadly?

Yeah, well, I didn't. I mean, like, stuff Christians like, was just a whim. So I had like 50 other terrible ideas. I thought I'd write about it for, like, it wasn't original. There was stuff white people like, which was like this funny, you know, send up of Caucasia, if you will. And I was like, you know what Christians like ripping off popular secular ideas. So the first one was stuff Christians like, number one, was ripping off popular secular ideas. So I thought I'd make fun of the stuff we do for like a week.

Christian subculture. I love it.

Yeah. And then it kind of took a life of its own. And so it wasn't like it was just what I knew. And it was at the time, like, it started to get momentum in ways I hadn't expected. And I was like, oh, man, this is really fun. And then part of it was I wanted. So I didn't get into it because I was like, I have to finally write Christian satire. Like, I've always written it in my diary alone, and now I finally am able to do it. It was like I had a bunch of ideas and that one kind of grew a little. So I was like, I'll do this. Let's try it. And I had fun with it. I love communicating with humor. That's enjoyable to me. But with that particular idea, I felt like I had done it. I mean, I wrote the site for like eight years or six years or something. And it's like, there's only so many worship leader jokes you can do where it's like, oh, my gosh. Like, oh, their genes are crazy. I know, right? Like, tell us that 50th time. What? They wear scarves. What scarves? That's crazy. And so, like, I just felt like it was time I had done that. There were a bunch of other smarter, funnier people in the space and I was like, they can have a turn with the topic. I've always been about life change and the potential of life change. So that was curious to me. So I did the book Quitter about that journey. Okay, like, what do you do when you feel stuck at a job and you want to change that? And so I shared that story and that's kind of what started. And then I started to go, oh, wow, it's really fun to talk to corporate audiences. Oh, okay, wow, that's interesting. And I started to go, okay, I'm going to do Start, which is more of a corporate book. I'm going to do do over, like, finish soundtracks. Where the goal of those books is I get to speak to teams because that's where people are. Like, that's where. And I get to go to Comedy Central or Microsoft or whoever and say, Or a software company and say, hey, here's some ideas. And companies, like, I think sometimes people in the church understand this. Like, companies want their people to win and be successful. Like, a good company cares about their people. So when I say, I've got a book about overthinking that will really help you guys be more productive. Higher retention rate. Employees are happier. They're like, cool, well, come show us those ideas. Or like, when I have a book about finishing goals. Awesome. We're doing a sales kickoff. It's been a challenging year. If you could help slingshot us, that would be great. And I go, I can. So that's kind of how it evolved.

Do you see a connection for you? I mean, you're an ambitious guy, right? You're a very driven guy. Is there a connection for you between that ambition and pursuit of excellence and your faith? Faith or those things largely separate for you?

I have some degree of hang up about success and faith. I think a lot of people do, but I think that's something that I struggle with, is like success is sinful. You should do a podcast on that.

Yeah, we talk a lot about that. Yeah.

Because I remember a Christian musician told me and he was in Nashville and he said, if you get a $75,000 Suburban, people say, good for you. That's a great family car. If you get a $75,000 BMW, they say, Jesus rode a donkey like he wrote a donkey. So I'm just gonna say that.

Leave that with you.

Yeah, you interpret it how you will, but like, as if, like there's a line where it's like, oh, they got a big house. But the sin started with the screened in porch. Everybody knows Jesus. Jesus is fine with a certain size house.

Right, right.

Without a pool. He is furious. And so I think with my being ambitious, I've had to, like, really learn to be open handed with that and that God determines the size and the pace because I think I sometimes make it smaller out of. Well, I don't, you know, I don't want to ruffle feathers or I don't want to be shamed online by Christians. Like, we're not the nicest audience to each other.

No, not at all.

That was one of the things I really learned being in the Christian space and corporate space, like sometimes, not all the time. There's. There's amazing people of faith having amazing discussions. But sometimes it felt like when I write a business idea, the business audience judges the idea. And when I write a Christian idea, the Christian audience judges the shape of my soul. Like, they go like, you're not a Christian if you believe this, versus, like, oh, yeah, that idea works. And that was. And I just. Look, that's not fun.

No, it's not the gospel. Listen, I'm writing devotional series on Arthur Guinness right now, so. Oh, yeah, I hear you. Yeah, no, that's interesting. We talk a lot of the podcasts about, like, it's not about success, it's about stewardship. It's just about God has given you, John, these talents as a communicator. It's the parable to talents going back to a few minutes ago. Right. And you're called to steward them.

Well, I want to steward those well. And I want to not get lost in it. And so, like, I want to not have my identity tied up into my work, which is challenging, giving the career we do. So I would say, you know, like, there's a lot to that. I want to live fully out of who I'm meant to be. I want to run as fast as I've been been given the ability to Run. So, like, I want to do all that, and I don't want to. You know, I'm always like, how did these successful leaders wreck it? Like, where were the steps? Like, that's always a curiosity for me. I refuse to believe it has to be that way. But I think there's decisions along the way that corrupt it or change it. And so I'm just always curious about that.

Define wreck it. And then can you offer some hypotheses about what you think these people do to wreck it?

Like, lose their whole company, lose their whole ministry. Get fired in a, like, ball of flame. Yeah, scandal. Like the 50th scandal. Not like the first scandal, like the. Oh, yeah, like the people two years before. Like, yeah, this is not going to end well. This is a slow moving train, but it's still going to crash. So, I mean, that's the kind of thing I think. And I'm not, like, good at fame. Like, fame for me. Like, I'm not good at it. I want to be influential. I want to serve people like crazy. I want people to win. Like, I want people to publish their book and grow their company. But so for me, a hypothesis would just be like. I think one of my favorite stories is a friend of mine was leaving a big church to go pastor another big church. And he asked the head pastor, his old one, like, what should I do? How do I not just blow it up? And he was like, make a list of things that you think are weird and give it to a friend and say, if you see me do any of these things, tell me. And my friend was smart enough to know, you know what, dude? No one's going to do that because it's so hard. It's so hard to be like, hey, if I'm just blown up my life, will you have an intervention? That's super challenging and emotional and awkward. So what he did was he wrote a letter to himself and gave it to three friends and said, just hand me this letter. That's all you have to do, and I'll know. So I love being deliberate. That way I'm going like, no, I'm. I'm susceptible to that. Like, I don't look at anyone who's failed and go, they did something I could never do. Nope, dude, nope. I am capable of all of that stuff. So I think relationships matter. I've been telling this story. I have a friend named Ben, and we go on walks. The older I get, the more I'm like, walks are dope. Like a walk and walks had a big 2020. Everybody walked into the park.

Big, big, big year.

Big year for walking. So Ben and I go walking. This is, like, three weeks ago. And he's like, what's going on? I'm like, man, I missed this opportunity. And I felt really sad about it, and I felt really afraid that I'd never get another one. I felt like I had blown my chance. I felt like I was the biggest idiot for missing the opportunity. And he was like, well, what would you have had more of if you had done that opportunity? I was like, wow, that's a really good question. And he's like, what would you have more of than you do right now? I was like, okay. And then he said the second question was, would you have gone deeper into your ego or deeper into your heart? And, like, I knew the answer to that one instantly. And I was like, my ego. And he said, well, that makes me sad, because I don't think he would have valued our walks and this friendship, and I would have missed out on this time. And, like, that's a gift. So I think a big part of it, I'm like, I love Chip Dodd, the Voice of the Heart. His book about saying, like, I don't get to receive that gift from other people unless I'm brave enough to admit I'm scared, I'm afraid, I'm lonely, and then other people can speak into that. But if I feel as a leader, influencer, whatever title that I gotta have, act like I have it all together. Like, forget it, dude. It's so isolating. It's so game over.

Yeah, that's good. I think my favorite line in soundtracks, I'm gonna read it verbatim. I got it right here. Quote, we spent 18 years teaching our kids that work sucks and then act surprised when they graduate from college and don't seem eager to get a job. End quote. So big theme of this podcast is how our faith influences our work. I'm curious, like, what are you trying to teach your kids? Your kids are a little bit older than mine. What are you teaching your kids right now about work? And how are you teaching them those things?

I'm trying to give them tools. Like, I'm trying to give them tools. Not my expectations. I think people ask me that all the time. Like, hey, well, not all the time. Like five people have ever. But all the time. Sounds like it's like, when you're speaking, you go, the other day can mean anytime, right?

Four years ago.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. People have been asking me, how do I get my kids excited about goals or work or whatever. And I always say, like, well, you're 45 and they're 15, so it took you 30 extra years to understand the value of goals. Don't expect a 15 year old for you to say this magic phrase or give them a book and it'll change their frontal lobe. Like, give them some grace. So what I try to do is come beside my kids versus being in front of them, pulling them toward this thing. So that's the dance. Because, like, you want, you know, my daughter, my 15 year old recently had to get an 830 mile for her lacrosse team. So she was like, dad, I want to train in January. Let's run some miles together. Like, awesome. So we did Strava. We ran some miles. We didn't make it, like, super crazy. And she ended up getting a 748. I was so proud of her. And we did it bit by bit. She ran by herself a lot. It wasn't like, hey, let's get up at 4am and drink egg yolks. And you have to do it like, because that would have suffocated it. So I'm trying to, like, be beside them, but then also be honest about. Yeah. This part of my job is difficult because every job has difficulties. This part of my job is amazing because there's a lot of amazing things that happen in the context of work. So I try to show them both sides of that. And I have a weird job. So, like, I try to walk them through what I'm doing.

But you talk to them a lot about your job?

Oh, yeah. And they think it's hilarious. Like, we got Land o' Lakes. I tweet about queso so much that Land o' Lakes, the company sent me £24 of queso. So, like, they think that's hilarious. That's like. And they're like, dad, you got to get some free makeup from Gloss.

Yeah, yeah, right, right.

But I'm not a makeup influencer. Like, I have to be really good at, like, I don't know, lip gloss. And I'm terrible at lip gloss. People know that. So, yeah, they just. I mean, they think my job's funny. I try to bring them to the moments where it's super fun for them.

Yeah, that's awesome.

And we try to tie the good moments to the challenging moments. So when you go like, hey, remember when I had to do this thing and it was like a crazy week, like, we're now in Disney? Those two things are related. This is how I pay for stuff. This is how we like. I would love them to graduate our house with, like, an appreciation of hard work.

That's really good. I love it. John, three questions. We wrap up every conversation with number one. And I know this varies depending on the person, but in general, which books other than your own do you gift most frequently or recommend most frequently to others?

Easy. The War of Art by Steven Pressfield.

The most popular answer on this podcast.

Yeah, that one. And then I just bought 10 copies of a Creative Technique for Producing Ideas by James Webb. It's from the 1940s. Nobody knows it, and it's probably like 30 pages long, costs like three bucks, and it's the best book on how to generate good ideas.

I'm gonna buy it as soon as we get off the line. Who would you most like to hear on this podcast talking about how the Christian faith influences the work that they do in the world?

I don't know. Oh, Chris Pratt.

Great answer. Solid answer we've had. Yeah, yeah, you're very good at answering.

Pretty solid. We started with Yanni.

I'm with Chris Pratt. I love it.

The whole spectrum. I'd love to hear him talk about his faith. But also, like, Twitter, when people are mean, like, yeah, yeah, Like, I think that'd be fascinating.

Yeah. Last question. One more piece of advice to leave this audience with an audience of people doing a bunch of different things. Some of them are writers, some of them are entrepreneurs, marketers, janitors, whatever. What they share is a desire to do great work for the glory of God and the good of others. What do you want to leave them with?

I think I'd say, like, let it be light and easy. That's what we're promised. The burden and the yoke is light and easy. And so I had that on a post it note. I'm looking at it right now. So before I wrote Soundtracks, I wrote that on a post it note and said, okay, I'm usually a jerk during the book writing process because I'm so stressed. This one's going to be light and easy, and I'm going to deliberately pray toward that, repeat that, work on that with my overthinking. So, yeah, I would say, like, light and easy is a good goal. John.

I want to commend you just for the great work that you do, just for serving your clients well, serving your readers well, through the ministry of excellence. Guys, the book is Soundtracks. I read every word of it, thoroughly enjoyed it. You can pick it up wherever books are sold. John, remind me of the name of the new podcast.

All it takes is a goal.

All it takes is a goal.

It's about. I mean, my big belief is that goals are the fastest path between where you are today and where you want to be tomorrow. And they feel amazing when you finish them. And so I think that it's really fun to finish goals, and I want that feeling for other people.

I love it. And you can find everything from john@acuff.me. of course. We'll have that link in the show notes. John, thanks for joining us.

Yeah, thanks for having me, Jordan. I really appreciate reading the book.

That was a lot of fun. Seriously, if you haven't listened to Yanni Live at the Acropolis, go stream it now. I always love talking to John. That was a blast. Hey, if you're enjoying the Call to mastery, take 10 seconds, open up Apple Podcasts. Go find the show, rate it. 5 stars, 4 stars. Whatever you think is fair. You don't even need to write a review. But if you do, I'll read it to my team to encourage them. We got a whole team working on this show. They would love to hear what you think about the content that we're producing. So go leave a review or a rating right now. Guys, thank you for tuning in to the Call to Mastery. I'll see you time next week.