Jon Houghton (CEO of The Holy Post)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back.

Guarantee on this book.

I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why?

Two reasons.

One, this is a different book for me, right. I know this is a very different biography. What is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right? So that's the first reason this is a risk and I'm gonna de risk.

This book for you.

Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended. End quote. But here's the thing. In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on 5merechristians.com and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5meerchristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey friend.

Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor.

How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians?

Those of us who aren't pastors or.

Religious professionals, but who work as data Analysts, tile setters, and fundraisers. That's the question we explore every week.

And today I'm posing it to my friend John Houghton. He's the CEO of Holy Post Media, a friend who has thought deeply about how the unabridged gospel should shape the work that you and I do today.

John and I recently sat down to discuss how caring about all that God.

Cares about will change what we do at work.

We talked about how to think about evangelism and social action as two elements of an interconnected flywheel.

Alert.

Jim Collins fans, you're gonna love this section of the episode.

And we also talked about why we Christians should never outsource our discernment, about how the gospel shapes our work, not even to me. And why it's so important that we do that work of discernment on our.

Own with the Lord. I think you guys are going to love this episode with my buddy, John Houghton. John Houghton, finally. Welcome to the Mere Christians podcast, buddy.

Man, it's good to be here. First time caller, but longtime listener.

I know, man. Longtime listener. And John Houghton is responsible for one of my most memorable evenings of 2023. Are you going to tell the sea bass story?

We can do the sea bass story. I don't remember exactly. All I remember is we were at dinner with friends, and it was like a great opportunity is like, guys you're connected to. When we found out we had mutual friends. We're in a nice restaurant, totally out of my league.

Great place in downtown Chicago. Yeah, I can't wait to go back to.

Luckily, I think you're the only one that heard me, like, totally butcher my order and expose myself that I'm, like, way out of my league in this restaurant.

And then we almost got in an accident that night.

We did. Almost. I didn't know if you're going to go there, too, but then we almost got into an accident while I was driving. I was just so excited to be driving with Jordan Rayner. And I almost ran us into John.

And Jordan's crazy night in Chicago. It was a good time. And then, you know, we get to talk about half truths about heaven and the unabridged gospel. The next day was with our mutual friend Sky Jatani and a bunch of others. Hey, buddy. Give our listeners the Reader's Digest version of your professional story just so that we can understand your perspective coming in this conversation.

Yeah, 20 years with young Life outreach ministry for high school, middle school kids, college kids. Loved every one of those 20 years. It's a hugely formative time in my life. That's how I came to know and follow Christ, was through that ministry and still love the mission. And I was given tons of opportunities. I just love the people there and most recently served as a regional director for Young Life in Chicagoland, where I got to live out a lot of really some of the things we'll probably talk about today. But had a growing restlessness in me of a friend of mine said John, it sounds like you want to find out if you can hit a curveball, not just a faster fastball and that young life could continue to provide faster fastballs. It certainly wasn't that I was unchallenged, challenged, but I just found myself kind of caring about things on the periphery and knowing I'm not probably leaning into the bullseye of what the job requires of me. And so started looking at some other things really just out of a restlessness to be challenged and scared and learn new things. So a little over a year ago I made what missionally is not that big of a jump, but in terms of day to day responsibility is a crazy jump where I now serve as the CEO of the Holy Post Media company. So people know of us, they think of us as a podcast, but we're really growing into a full multimedia company that is helping people think Christianly about all things and having fun while doing it. So I'm learning a lot about the media industry and about a startup.

It's super fun and we are Holy Post super fans over here. We've had sky on before. You know, we've never invited Phil on.

The Mere Christians podcast, but we need to make that happen because he's got.

A great story here.

He's got a great story and he's funny. People know him as funny, the creator of VeggieTales. He's funny, profound and he's got some real, real substance about the things that you care about on the show. So it'd be great to have on.

Yeah, you've told me that before. Hey, so you and I first connected two years ago this week actually, after this talk I gave on the abridged gospel versus the unabridged gospel. And frankly, I think our listeners are really tired of hearing me explain this idea. So I want you to put in your own words. How would you describe the abridged or two act preaching of the gospel versus the unabridged five act version that we see in God's Word in like two minutes? Can't wait to see you pull this off.

I came kind of running up to find you in the Hallway. Because I loved the talk so much. And in a lot of ways what I felt like you've done with that is you have put words to what my experience has been. I've heard people talk about deconstructing. Good friend of mine, David Swanson will talk about people having a second conversion experience. Like really? I think what he means by that is like they first had this conversation conversion experience. That's like your two act gospel. That's like this kind of ticket, my soul is saved. And then that for many people that requires this kind of second conversion experience. A part of what it means to be a follower of Christ, to be in relationship with Christ is to submit all of your life to him and that that includes joining with God and restoring the world. You know that all of what you're doing. And so I heard that talk in some ways, Jordan, I would say, like it wasn't new to me. It wasn't?

No, it wasn't new because.

Because I'm so grateful frankly for who my young life leader was and I think it was particular to who this person was that I didn't have that second conversion experience because I kind of was getting through no work of my own. But the way that the gospel was first presented to me was the robust kind of full expression, the five chapter gospel. And I just. The reason why I came up to find you was because I love that you were using that platform and all the platforms you use to share that. Because my heart breaks for that have only been introduced to the two act gospel. I'm not mad at them, I'm not disappointed. I just, my heart breaks that like, no, like that's not the whole thing. And so that's an exact retelling. But I think that idea of a second conversion experience is where people go from the two act to the five act.

And just for our listeners who don't know what we're talking about, haven't read the sacredness of secular work. You know this to act abridged gospels essentially. Act one, Human sin. Act two, Jesus saved us from our sins and saved our souls and the rest of creation be damned. We're all, you know, going to heaven when we die, right? Whereas the unabridged gospel is no, God created us to be with him on this earth. Act one, act two, we sinned and screwed everything up. Act three, Jesus the Redeemer came and redeemed us by our works.

But Act 4 says he has saved.

Us for good works, right? To partner with him in restoring all things and making all things new until Act 5. He returns and finishes the job and consummates the long awaited marriage between heaven and. And earth. So John, why are you so passionate about this?

Like what are the implications for the.

Mere Christians listening when we settle for the abridged version of Jesus's good news?

Yeah, I mean I think there's something that's just inherently problematic with and I think you do a good job of this too, to be honest. But there's something just inherently problematic with something that's not accurate or at least fully accurate. I think you do a good job of saying that it's. That it's not that it's inaccurate. The two act gospel is not inaccurate, it's just incomplete. I will give an answer to that question of the implications. But like just things that are wrong, that that's problematic in and of itself. I think in some ways, end of.

If God's word says one thing and we're doing the other, that's a problem.

Yeah, it's just not true. And then I think that it can become kind of dull and lifeless. That can make the gospel sound transactional. As in like you should buy this whole thing, all five acts, because your life will be exciting and you shouldn't settle for the one that's less exciting. Again, I don't think that's it. I think it, it matters that this is a more true understanding of it. But I do think that that's a dull and lifeless way to follow Christ and it doesn't get me out of bed in the morning. Yeah. So I think that that is certainly one of the implications of it. And then I do think it can be a very self centered kind of understanding and that we don't, it doesn't inspire us or draw us to work for the flourishing of our neighbor. Because that's just insignificant in the two act gospel.

Yeah. Because the two act gospel is all about saving your soul. Justice doesn't really matter. Beauty doesn't really matter. Unless of course those things can be leveraged to some instrumental end of saving that soul. Right.

That's right. And I do care about that soul being saved. It's just not the only thing I care about.

I don't know if you remember this, I can't remember how long ago you wrote this blog post, but I was reading this blog post where you quoted this theologian named Renee Padilla.

Is that right?

That's correct.

Is that how you pronounce?

Yeah.

Can you share that plain analogy with our listeners? Because I thought that was really helpful.

He was a Missionary and a theologian and a professor. I wish I had his bio more kind of at the tip of my tongue. But really influential thinker and author that talks about Integral Mission or Michonne Integral. And he describes that our faith being that it's. It's a two winged plane in that one side of that being evangelism, I add. And I think that this is my addition. So I want to be careful. I don't know that Rene Padilla said this, but like one side of the plane being evangelism, I think also kind of personal holiness can kind of come on that side of the plane and the other wing of the plane being social action. And he says that these are essential and individual components. Two wings of one plane, you know. And I think that a plane doesn't fly well if kind of one wing is overweighted from the other. Yeah, I think that's some of the problem of especially the predominantly white church is that we have an over weighted wing, you know, and then we fly in circles. And I love the idea of this kind of essential and indivisible components.

That's really good.

And let's be real explicit about what we mean. What do you mean when you say social action? What does that mean, or to put it in other language of, you know, the unabridged gospel. What does it mean to renew creation beyond saving souls? What are we talking about here, John?

Yeah, I think it means working for the flourishing of our neighbor regardless of what their worldview is, regardless of there's some instrumental end of it that we are. One of the ways I like to talk about it is like sort of discipleship is really us caring about what God cares about. Like as we fall in love with. I always say, like my. My wife loves Bruce Springsteen. Okay, so I'm 43 years old. We're not exactly the right sweet spot of like a Bruce Springsteen fan, but she like obsessively loves Bruce Springsteen. Been to close to 60 shows. And I, on the other hand. Yes, I know, it's crazy. I, on the other hand, like went to college at a time when. And Jordan. I bet we're about the same age. But like everybody moved into college with these like huge CD racks. Some of them could spin, you know, like. Like this. Seriously. Okay.

No.

Well, I went to college with no CDs when everybody else had racks and racks and racks of CDs. So my point being, like, I didn't care about music at all. And I marry somebody who's like obsessively into music. In particular Bruce Springsteen and that, like, as I fall in love with Annie, like, I begin to care about what Annie cares about. And guess what? I've been to 15 Springsteen shows now, you know, And I could tell you all his albums because as I fall in love with Annie, I begin to care about what she cares about. And I think that this is discipleship. So when you say, like, what's the social action wing of the plane, I think it's. It's. As we read the scriptures, as we know that heart of Christ, deeper and deeper and deeper, we begin to care about what God cares about. So what is the social action? It's actually putting into action, caring about what God cares about.

I'll put a different point on it. It's caring about all the things God cares about and not just the souls that God cares about.

That's right.

It's caring about justice. It's caring about beauty. It's caring about creating abundance. Right. It is caring about the earth. It's caring about all these things that Jesus blood paid to redeem. Right?

That's right. That's exactly right. Yes.

I love that definition of discipleship, by the way. It's really good. Yeah. So here's what I loved about this blog post the most. And we'll make sure we put a link to this in the show notes so that people can visualize this. But you argued, and I would agree with this, that younger people today tend to emphasize social action to the neglect of evangelism, while older generations do the opposite. But the genius of this post was this flywheel. Like, I love good flywheels, man. Jim Collins. I'm all about it, right? You see, gets out this flywheel, visualizing how these things work together, how evangelism and social action work together. Can you talk our listeners through this flywheel?

I think a concern for justice, concern for the flourishing of our neighbor is both the fruit of discipleship. As we care about what God cares about, we are going to care about those things because it's what God cares about. And then I also think it's a method of evangelism, because as I'll talk through, I think a watching world, especially a younger watching world, we have no opportunity to tell them anything about Christ if they do not know. And I don't mean from a marketing campaign, I mean, like actually know the truth of us caring about the flourishing of our neighbors. We will never earn the right to be heard. This cycle, I don't even know where it starts because it's a cycle. But young life, brilliantly for years and years and years has both used the phrase and lived it out of earning the right to be heard in young people's lives. And historically what we've meant by that, what young life has meant by that is we kind of the classic thing of no one cares what you say unless they know you care. You know, like showing up to games, showing up in kids lives, earning the right to be heard. And when we do that, it gives us a chance to introduce young people to Jesus. Introduce people to Jesus. And I think we ought to do that. Jordan, I know you believe in that too. Your passion around the unabridged gospel and is not to neglect the idea that we ought to be sharing the truth of Christ with people. So we earn the right to be heard. And as we do that, that gives us a chance to introduce people to Christ. As we introduce people to Christ, kind of the next step of this is what I described earlier of discipleship. They get to know Christ, they fall in love with Christ and they begin to care. We begin to care about what God cares about. And then when we care about what God cares about, we don't just talk about that. We don't just talk about it on podcasts, we don't just read books about it. We actually join God's plan of restor. We like get our hands dirty, get involved in restoring the world to how God created it to be. And when that happens, when God's people do that, what as a result of that is shalom is the thriving, that kind of the deep peace and flourishing of our communities. And when that happens now people pick their eyes up and we've earned the right to be heard and that's the way it becomes a cycle. So as I would talk about this and sort of as a way of, and I hope not defensively, but sort of justify our emphasis on working towards justice and racial justice within this ministry was we don't have a chance to evangelize if we don't do this. And it is also a fruit of discipleship.

I was speaking at some conference, I can't remember where I was and I texted you this picture. I just pulled it up on my phone and it says this poster said justice equals evangelism to a post Christian community. Like yes, that's what you're talking about here. And listen, let's be like really, really clear. These things have intrinsic value.

Every step of that flywheel, introducing people.

To Christ, doing justice, restoring creation has intrinsic value. It's good in and of itself because God cares about these things, and we should care about these things, but they.

Also have instrumental value in the. Each step makes the flywheel go faster.

Well, we're talking, like, really, really big picture stuff here. Let's get really ground level. Let's talk to our listener who is a marketing manager at a really large company, a listener who is a mechanic in an auto repair shop, or a listener who's a barista at their local coffee bar. Pick whoever you want.

What does it look like for her.

To care about what God cares about in her work and join God in the restoration of her small corner of creation?

Yeah, I think I've told you this before, Jordan, but I think your work and this podcast in particular, like, one of the great challenges of it, is to quote our mutual friend sky, he says we can't outsource our discernment. So, like, on the one hand, I want to say, I don't know. I can't give you the answer to all those people. I can't give you the answer. Like, you don't get to outsource that discernment. It's your intimacy with Christ and the way that he is wired you that, you know, if we will listen, he will tell us, and then we have to have the courage to act on that. And on the other hand, I do want to help people figure that out, you know, so I think so. Like, on the one hand, by the.

Way, you asked me to be prescriptive on this point before, so now I'm.

Asking you to do. I know. So I'm gonna try. I'm gonna try. I'm gonna try. So on the one hand, this is. I only. I only got to the one side of it there. On the one hand, we can't outsource our discernment. We have to do that work. On the other hand, you know, I.

Think rely on this podcast to do the work, you're going to grow more intimately with the Lord as you do the work yourself.

Trust me, I'm going to answer your question, and you can pin me down if I haven't. But where this comes from, where this is, like, most clear to me, a lot of this happened post the murder of George Floyd, where white people as a group, I think for a little while there was this humility that was saying, tell me how to do this. The scales have come off my eyes. Gosh, I know all of these are triggering words, but, like, they're. For many people, scales came off their eyes and said, there is systemic racism. And then in a lot of ways, what a Lot of people did was just tell me what to do, tell me what to do, and I'll do it. And I think there was a laziness to that. As if somebody else can prescribe for you. What's the deep internal work that you need to do to say, God, what are you calling me to do? How have you gifted me? Where have you given me influence? And big or small? And so that's why I get pretty passionate about this idea of we can't outsource our discernment. To be totally blunt about it, what it was was white people saying to black people, just tell me what to do. We didn't take any responsibility for us figuring that out.

Okay, let me clarify that you and I are both white dudes. I know my audience knows that about me. But this is the perspective you're coming from. All right, go to the barista, though. I'm going to hold you to an an.

Okay. No, please be prescriptive. So on the one hand, we've got to become a different kind of whatever we are, right? This is the work that you do is to say, like, this was Zacchaeus story. As he encountered Christ, he remained a tax collector, but became a different kind of tax collector. That's not your original thought. It's my original thought, but I think it's a very helpful framework. That's the. In a lot of ways, I think is the bullseye of the ministry that you're doing. I then think also in John chapter four. So on the one hand that. That one I want to say it's like, it's kind of easy. You don't actually have to change what you're doing. Keep going to your marketing job. Keep going to your barista job. This is not an add anything on. Like, this is. As God transforms you, you will live your moment by moment, day to day life in different ways every day. I'm still going to get narrower in my answer. Number two, though, second step is I do think we have to go out of our way. Like John chapter four. I think I'm doing this right. At least this is the way it's repeated to me. Jordan is like, Jesus went out of his way. It was not the most direct path for him to encounter a Samaritan woman. And the truth is, our lives and our communities are generally organized in a way where if we are of people of financial means, if we are of people of comfort and privilege, we are mostly going to interact. Because of the way our communities are organized, we are mostly going to interact with People similar to us. So I do think on the one hand, step one is just become a different kind of marketer or barista. On the other hand, I do want to say we got to go out of our way sometimes to find the places where God has invited us to join with him in restoring what he has created to be. And then I think this third piece, and I'm going to get narrower, but this third piece is we've got to give at a cost. So the other story from the Gospels that I just love so much is when Jesus feeds the 5,000 with five loaves and two fish that it was like a little boy, right, that came up, saw the problem, offered up his measly sack lunch, and surely he knew that that wasn't going to be enough to solve the whole problem that day, but he offered it anyway. He trusted that Jesus could make it more than enough. I also have a feeling that that boy didn't hold anything back for himself. Like, I don't think he had 10 loaves and eight fish, but he only gave up some of them. Like, I think we got to give it a cost. And so I think that barista and that marketer has got to grow some intimacy with the Lord so that they can hear what God is calling to, so that they can know more and more and more what the heart of God is and then care about what God cares about. Then we've got to go out of our way a little bit because otherwise we're going to be in the same paths and then we got to give at a cost a little bit. So what's the marketer supposed to do? What's the barista supposed to do? Find the places, find the moments in each day where this. Surely this is not how God intended. Intended it to be. Surely this is not how God intended it to be. And then do something about that.

It's so good, man. That was really, really good. Really tough question. All right, so hold on a second. Jesus is always, I mean, all throughout scripture, it's clear that God cares about those on the margins. So put yourself in the shoes of the barista. I don't know why I'm picking up. I love picking on baristas. And Elvoy, put yourself in the shoes of the baristas. Who doesn't see people on the margins very frequently in his or her average day to day? If you were in their shoes, what would you do to change that practically? What would you change about your habits? To put yourself in a position where you see the marginalized and could love and serve them.

I think we've got to recognize, like, literally patterns of where we put ourselves. And I don't think people need to apologize for where they live. This is super complicated stuff. Again, I'm going to talk about race a fair amount. And it's like gentrification is also a problem. And so that's not so simple. On the one hand, I don't think anyone needs to apologize for who their lives cross paths with right now. But as the scales come off, as we become aware of that, then I don't think we get to rest for too long in saying my path just doesn't cross. I just don't cross paths with anyone that has obvious suffering, you know, has that the ways of the world have been unfair too. Like, you've got to change where you're.

Going, because that's what Jesus did. Proactively went out.

Yes. And your life will be richer. Your life will be richer. This is not a 100. I mean, I don't even know how to describe how much. It's like, this is not entirely a service or altruistic kind of thing. No, no, no. Like, your life is missing the fullness of what it could be without that. So I think we've got to go out of our way. And then I think that to be faithfully following Christ, like, requires some courage. And so if you're not doing anything that, like, required a little bit of courage for too many days in a row, like, that's probably, probably not a great sign. And I mean, I'm looking in the mirror when I say that. But if you're a barista and you overhear a conversation and I don't know, there's probably something you have to be careful about on this. But, like, when you hear people speaking in language that's dehumanizing about somebody else, like, there's an opportunity. I made a commitment and I do not live this perfectly. But like, number of years ago, like, I'm. Like, I am just every room that I'm in, every meeting that I'm in, I'm going to try to talk in a way that assumes people from whatever group of people we're talking about are in the room. And then not only that, but if somebody in that room. And again, I'm just going to come back to race. I hope people can extrapolate this to other groups as well. But, like, if I'm in a room of people and there are not people of color in the room with me and somebody says something that I would speak up about. If my friend Kalia was in the room, I'm going to speak up about it even if she's not in the room. And that, to me, I would say this, like in the barista example, because, like, I don't know. That requires some courage. Most people don't do it.

Man, that's really good. That's really practical. Hey, all right, let's go to the job you actually have today as CEO of Holy Post Media. You guys are producers producing this media, this content for the church. I'm curious how you guys are joining God in the renewal of all things through this for profit media company.

Obv.

Other than the obvious answer, which is you produce content around this topic. You talk about these things. Right? But how is the business actually renewing creation if you don't have a good answer? That's fair, right? Like, I know you guys are working this out, but I'm curious to hear what you say.

Yeah, very much working it out. It's like, I don't ever want to go too long without somebody asking that question, you know, so.

Well, hold on. Can I. Can I push back on myself for a second?

Okay.

Is it the wrong question?

Is it the business's job to be doing that and.

Or is it our job as individuals to be doing that?

I'm not sure.

We know it's our job as individuals. Right, but is it the corporation's job to do this?

Well, I only want to be. I mean, I don't think this has to be everybody's answer, but, like, I only want to be a part of it if that is a part of what we're doing. Let me try to answer that and just see where this goes. But I think that one of the things that we're setting out to do and like, even why we're structured as a for profit, this isn't foolproof. But like, we, I think a lot of churches and institutions, the incentive structure, the financial incentive structure is to tell people what they want to hear. You have to keep people in your pews for good reasons. I don't even mean for selfish reasons, because that helps fund the good work that the church is doing. It helps fund the staff. If you're the president of a Christian college today, you are faced with these decisions of like, this is what I, you know, if you're the president of large parachurch organizations, like, this is what I think is right in this situation, and this is what will happen to my funding if I say or do that. And that puts in jeopardy the ability for the institution to continue. So I'm going to go the safe route here. I'm not going to speak up on this area of injustice or this thing that I think is a more faithful way to follow Christ as an institution or as an organization or whatever, for fear of what that will do to our funding, which then if I'm the one that causes our funding to go away, then we cease to be doing the good things. And we're doing good things. There's no question we're doing good things. I don't know if I'm describing that well, but, man, is that a thing. I mean, it was a threat in the organization I worked with previously, and we had to wrestle with that all the time. And so we are trying to say, essentially, if we can create content and sell enough dog food ads, you know, like, literally we sell ads for dog food on the show. You know, if we can do that in a way that allows us to have some editorial freedom that we don't want to be reckless with, but it gives us some editorial freedom, we don't have to look over our shoulder and say, how will our major donors feel about the way we took on that topic. We think we can serve the broader church by taking on topics that institutions have a hard time taking on to try to do that in a fair and faithful way to who God calls us to. We think one of the results of this will be that more and more Christians will live out the unabridged gospel gospel and then be working for the flourishing of their neighbor. Like, if I can't connect all those dots between what we're doing at Holy Post and historically marginalized people like having a better chance to flourish. I don't want to be doing this now again. That doesn't have to be true for everybody, but that's true for the way we're thinking about this.

I love that your answer went, like, way down to the roots of even the business model. And I love how deeply you guys have thought through. This is so good. Hey, so, John, we were driving around Chicago in September, and we were talking about my new book and the Synchronous to Secular Working. Like, oh, yeah, this is clearly like the why Work? Book in your canon. But, like, what comes next? And my answer. Do you remember my answer?

No. What a punk I was for saying that to you.

Yeah, you were like, oh, yeah, your book's not even out yet. What are you doing next? What a punk.

No, I love the question, but my.

Answer is answer was, oh, man, it's got to be all about the how.

Not how does the gospel shape why.

We do what we do, what we do, what we do, but how mere Christians go about their 9 to 5 or whatever the role is. So for you, right, it's clear how your faith is shaping what you guys are doing at Holy Post. But what's one significant way you think the gospel is shaping how you lead your team, how you build this business day in, day out?

I think one of my things that I've just been so humbled by in this last year, I have felt because I've stepped into a new space where I don't feel like I'm an expert and I'm not an expert. I have led very insecurely for much of the first six or eight months. This is the answer that came to me when you asked this question. I think there's a lot of truth in it, is like I was not being faithful to who God has called me to be because I just wasn't being me. I was so insecure. I was so aware that I don't know the media industry at all. I would go into a meeting and I would say it wrong the first time. And then I got to the point where I could say it right the first time. But a follow up question, I would screw up. And what that did then was I tamped down all the parts of who I am because I was so insecure about the things that I'm not. And one way that that plays out, I'll say this with you, Jordan, because you know the show and you know these guys, but it's like Phil and Sky are great at thinking critically about things. Good for them. They're great at that. I'm like eager and earnest and excited about things. And because I felt like I didn't know the media industry, this is oversimplified. But because I didn't know the media industry, what I would do is just sort of match who they are and I would try to prove that I could think critically about something. I just was not myself, you know, and then I just. That felt like, no, almost like I wasn't trusting in who God created me to be because I was leaving those parts on the sidelines trying to be somebody else. And. And then essentially just like decided I was tired of. For the record, Phil and Sky were great to me during all of this. And they, I don't know that they felt it wasn't a Phil sky problem. No, this was. I would drive home feeling like I just wasn't myself. Today, you know, and decided I'm just whatever happens, happens. But I'm going to drive home and feel like I was who God created me to be in the way I interact with people and the way that I help people believe that things are possible. I think that's a part of who God has created me to be. And praise God for those that think critically about things. You know, that's one of the ways.

What in your time with the Lord personally or just time in the Word kind of freed you to just embrace? Like, yeah, this is who I am. And no, I'm not like that.

You know, one of the things for me was like conversations with my kids about them and then realizing, oh, wait a minute, John, oh wait a minute. You know, just like the things I tell nick, who's a 14 year old going to a big public high school for the first time and just wanting him to be himself so badly. So Nick, he's pretty small for his age, but he used to be really small for his age. And so starting very young, I mean, I honestly think it was a thing from the Holy Spirit starting very young. When I would put him to bed at night, I would say to him, you are God's masterpiece. And he would repeat back to me, God made me just the way he wanted to. So that was like our thing starting when he was 2 or 3 years old. Because I thought a day was going to hit where he was going to question, did God made me? Is the way God made me good and right or did God make a mistake in the way that he made me again at this time? It's because like he was like not even on the chart, you know, like not at 5% of this height and weight chart. And I wanted him to like know that deeply. And I so admire my son because he does believe that so deeply. So he goes into this business, big public high school and acts like himself and is going to take it or leave it whether people like him or not. And guess what? People end up really liking him. They end up really liking him because he's not trying to be somebody else. And I'm having those conversations with my son as he's entering this new high school and realizing, wait a minute, John, God didn't make a mistake when he created me either and be that person. Yeah. So it wasn't necessarily in reading scripture, it was like those conversations, it was experiential.

Yeah. It was like God speaking to you through those circumstances. That's really good, dude. Hey, you know the drill. As a longtime Listener, first time caller, three questions. We wrap up every show with number one, if we opened up your Amazon order history, what books are we going to see you buying over and over and over again to give to friends?

So one of the books I just love is not like this widely read book, but man, has it been transformative for me is Peter Block wrote a number of things, but the answer to how is yes is a profound book. He reframes seven questions we commonly ask. So like one of these being, how do I get these people to change? So we may ask it out loud, but at least that's a question we're asking ourselves, how do I get these people to change? And he reframes that question to what's my contribution to the very thing I'm complaining about? And so every time I'm asking myself, how do I get these people to change? I have to reframe that question to what's my contribution to this? So he does this with seven different questions. I don't know if Peter Block's books are leadership books or they're self help books. They don't.

It doesn't matter.

They're helpful. Exactly. Life changing for me. So the answer to how is yes and then Subversive Witness by Dominique Gilead, I just think is in this area of kind of Christ centered racial justice. Really, regardless of where you're at on that journey, I think this book is an accessible book to say, what's my role in kind of working through that cycle that I just described earlier?

It's good. It's a good man. Hey, who do you want to hear on the podcast?

Well, obviously you should have Caitlin Chass, one of the co hosts of Holy Post, because she's brilliant about everything, but among other things is political theology and just how to be faithful in the public square. I think she would be great. And then here's the other one because I love your rotation of kind of theologians and scholars and authors and then baristas and marketers and whatever, mere Christians. Casey Kraus is a friend of mine that I first met when he was involved with young life when I was his leader. But he kind of has more seamlessly incorporated his faith into every aspect of his life than just about anybody I know in some ways. And one of the stories I like to tell is like, Casey, this is going to be around racial justice again. But he was one of those people that the scales were coming off his eyes post George, Floyd and Casey. But who he is is. He's like ultra marathoner. He's a runner, an ultra marathoner. And the guy collects friends like nobody else I've ever met. Like, everybody wants to go where Casey's going. And so what he did was he ran every block of Indianapolis and just stopped and met people. But he said, I just want to know my community, and I'm a runner. And so then he, like, documented this, and then people started coming with him on it. He started a nonprofit out of the thing called New Shoe Day. But it all started because he said, I'm a runner. That's like a part of who I am. And how does that intersect with this? I mean, there's a longer story here, but I. I think you should talk to Casey as a mere Christian.

Oh, man, that's a great suggestion. Connect me with Casey. I'd love to talk to him.

I will.

All right, John, you're talking to this global audience of mere Christians. Very diverse, vocationally. What they share is a desire to do their work for the glory of God and the good of others. What's one thing you want to reiterate to them before we sign off?

You can't outsource your discernment. So keep listening to Jordan's podcast, but create space for intimacy with the Lord. Listen to the Lord for what he's calling you to do and then have the courage to act on it. It. Don't let it just be a journal entry in your journal that you heard the Lord say it, but move to action on that. But first create the intimacy to hear from the Lord.

Man. So good, John, I want to commend you for the exceptional work you've done throughout your career. Young life now. Holy post. For the glory of God and the good of others. For reminding us of the implications of the abridged versus the unabridged gospel and reminding us to carry care about all that God cares about. Yes, Evangelism, yes. Saving souls, but also creating beauty and justice and order and abundance. Brother man, so, so, so grateful for you. Where's the best place for people to connect with you if they want to?

Yeah, my website's johnhoten.org and certainly can contact me there. Find some of these thoughts there. I'm not very active on social media. I'm mostly a consumer of it, Jordan. So let's just direct people to johnhoten.org There you go.

That's great, brother. Thank you for hanging out with us today.

Thanks, Jordan.

I hope you guys enjoyed that episode as much as I did. If you did, do me a Favor.

And take 30 seconds right now to.

Go leave a review of the podcast.

On Apple on Spotify wherever you listen to the show. Thank you guys so much for listening.

I'll see you next week.

Foreign.

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