Jordan Raynor (Host of Mere Christians)

The episode you're about to listen to was released back when the Mere Christians podcast was called the Call to Mastery. Now, if you love Mere Christians, you're still going to love these older episodes because the majority of each conversation focuses on how the gospel influences the work of our guests. With that disclaimer out of the way, please enjoy the episode. Foreign. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I'm Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. Each week, I host a conversation with a Christian who's pursuing world class mastery of their craft. We talk about their path to mastery, their daily habits, and how the gospel of Jesus Christ influences their work. Guys, today's a big milestone. This is episode 100 of the Call to Mastery. We've been thinking about something special to do for this big milestone, and a lot of you guys suggested that I be the guest that we flipped the microphone and and have somebody interview me along the same themes that I ask our guests in these first 100 episodes. So that's what we're doing. Thought long and hard about who to ask to interview me, and I got to say, my decision did not at all disappoint. In a minute, I'm going to pass the microphone over to Jenna Fortier. She's one of a few producers here on the Call to Mastery podcast and she's listened to every single episode, right? So nobody knows this show better. And I couldn't think of anyone more qualified to ask these questions. And by the way, she's also been a guest, so if her name sounds familiar, yes, she was a guest here on episode 61 of the Call to Mastery. I was so impressed with her after that conversation that I hired her. Literally, as soon as we turned off the microphone, I was like, we got to work together. So we recently sat down together and in my home studio here in Tampa, Florida, and I doled out five superlatives for the first 100 episodes, including the best guest nobody's ever heard of and the most underappreciated episodes, in my humble opinion. I talked about the two biggest takeaways I took from reading scripture front to back, specifically looking for what God's word has to say about our work. And finally, not final, we talked about a lot. This is a long episode. Apologies in advance, but we also talked about how my one thing vocationally has become more refined over the last few years. I hope you guys love this special episode 100 of the Call to Mastery. Here now is my friend and colleague, Jenna Fortier.

Hey, Jordan. Episode 100. Can you believe it? How. How are you feeling?

Feeling good? Feeling nervous? Being on the literal and metaphorical other side of this table. Microphone.

Yeah, I know. It's about time. I'm having this crazy deja vu moment right now. Thinking back to my episode, I remember saying at the very beginning, man, maybe in 20 years, Jordan will ask me to be on the podcast. And now I'm interviewing you just a year later. I feel like I've peaked. What is there more to accomplish?

It's all downhill. It's all downhill. Yeah.

No, but seriously, super honored to be doing this and flip the mic on you. So don't want to waste a minute because I have lots of questions for you. So can you first share a little bit about what it is you do? I mean, your audience probably knows you as author of Call to Create, Master of One podcast, host of the Call to Mastery. But what is your overall mission in this work and how does it all come together?

Yeah, it's a good question. It is interesting, right? Because typically people get to know my work via a single product, right? So they read Called to Create or Red Master of Wand, or Listen to the podcast, and it's hard to see kind of what's the umbrella that ties all of it together. So for me, my personal mission, which is also the mission of Jordan Rayner and Company, is to inspire and equip every Christ follower to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. Yeah, a lot of that language is baked right into the intro of this show. And the way that we do that is by creating products that really help people connect the gospel specifically to their work.

Right.

Like, I'm a big believer in content that is not just biblically based, but gospel centric. I think there's a big difference between those two things. And so if you look across the product portfolio of books, this podcast, some of the paid products that we're selling at Jordan Rayner and Company, that's kind of the common theme. And all under that banner of inspiring and equipping the church to do great work. Because as a response to the gospel, Right. I believe wholeheartedly, as I have written about many books, but especially Redeeming youg Time, which is coming out this October, that part of our response to the gospel is to work heartily as under the Lord, as Paul says in Colossians 3:23. And that's what this whole mission is all about.

Yeah, I love that. So. So what is your personal story with all this? Like, what in your life led you to want to do this work of inspiring Christians to do their most exceptional work?

Yeah. So I think bits and pieces of this come out when I'm hosting the podcast. By the way, can you vouch for me, on the record, that I did not have these questions ahead of time? I want a little bit of credit.

Yes. He told me not to show them.

That's right. I have not seen these questions. I want that on the record. Yeah. So I. I spent the first 10 years of my career as a tech entrepreneur. I started and sold a couple of companies early on, and most recently ran a tech startup called Threshold360 for about two and a half years as CEO, still chairman of the board of that company. So I spent a little bit of time engaged with that team, which I still love, and it's a great business. But about halfway through my journey, I was ending my tenure at the second company that I had started, and I was trying to figure out what the heck I was going to do next with my life. And that venture, it's a venture called Citizen Esther, is kind of a bittersweet story. It ended up having a somewhat happy ending, but for the most part, it wasn't a great venture. And so I'd had success with my first one. I had some success with the second one. I was trying to figure out what I was going to do next, and I was pretty sure I was going to start another company. Right. That's all I do. And I thought I was good at it. I had other people tell me I was good at it. But one Sunday, I went to church, and we had a guest preacher talking about the need for church planters all around the world. And as he's describing the profile of the ideal church planter, I'm sitting there thinking, oh, my gosh, like, this guy's describing entrepreneurs. And that is the ideal profile of a church planter. Right. You're just a great founder. And so I just felt this very familiar shame and guilt that I know a lot of our audience has felt before, sitting there saying, man, how dare I want to go start another company when I should be using my life to go plant a church instead? I did not have this theology of work at all. And so Kara, my wife, and I started praying really specifically about potentially plenty of church, actually, in Washington, D.C. where you live. I don't know if you do that.

No, I did not know that part of the story.

We love D.C. so we're praying about it. And by the grace of God alone, I had a godly mentor in my life pull me aside. He knew I was considering planning a church. He also knew I was thinking about starting another company. And he basically said, what in the world are you doing thinking about planning a church? You are a skilled entrepreneur. You've created a lot of jobs. You create a lot of wealth. Why do you think you have to go plan a church in order to, quote, unquote, do ministry? Don't you get that your work as an entrepreneur is ministry? And I was like, I have no idea what you're talking about. Literally none. And a few other people were recommending every good endeavor by Tim Keller, Keller's book on faith and work. And I read it, and it rocked my world, totally changed my life, helped me see in Genesis that God himself worked. And that gives great dignity and meaning to all work. And not only does God work in Genesis, but he works today through his people, be they entrepreneurs or nurses or janitors or doctors or entrepreneurs or writers, whatever. God is at work today in this world through his faithful followers. And so that just blew my mind. I read the book. I still had questions. Keller's book is really written for all Christians, which I appreciate. It's why I recommend it so much. But I had questions about what does this look like specifically for me as an entrepreneur. So I just went out and I started asking questions and doing research and doing interviews. Filled up a moleskin full of notes, and eventually realized, like, there's a book in this moleskine, right? There's something here. And of course, that was called To Create. And so called to Create came out in November 2017. I've been running threshold360 CEO for a year. And thresholds growing really quickly. The book just took off. And as I talk about Master of One, just really experienced what I call the miracle of divine multiplication. Like, just took off in ways that were totally inexplicable and just so clear that the Lord's hand was on that work. And so somewhere along the way of running Threshold, I realized I got to put all my eggs in one of these baskets. I still saw them both, you know, creating content and running a tech startup as the same, as an expression of my one thing, which is entrepreneurship, but just knew I had to pick one of those lanes. And so I stepped down as CEO of Threshold, spent about a year recruiting my replacement, who, frankly, is doing a much better job running that company that I was. And again, still involved with the company. But I had been focused on this work full time for two years now, creating content that inspires and equips the church to do great work for God's glory.

Yeah. Yeah. So you made this decision to leave Threshold.

Yeah.

I'm sure that was a scary leap to make. Right. And I know so many people in this audience are doing things on the side and know they want to dive in, but don't know when is the right time or how to make that leap. It's not only a big decision for you, but for your family too. So if I'm sitting in the Rayner household, what did some of those conversations look like? And how did you guys know that this was the right move for you?

Yeah, it's a really good question. I tell people all the time, startups are a young person's game. And I don't necessarily mean young in terms of age, just in stage of life. It's a lot harder to take big risks and big swings when you're married, when you have kids, way harder. And so early on in our marriage, starting a new venture was no big deal, right? Like, Kara and I, relatively privileged upbringings. Right. Like, we just had the ability to take risks like that. But when I left Threshold, yeah, we had two kids at the time we were starting to think about adoption. Part of why I left Threshold was because we didn't think we could bring another child into our home and maybe still do that job with excellence was part of that calculus. But, yeah, you know, for us, it wasn't just like, okay, call the crate. Did well, you know, let's do it. Let's quit. Like, we were very methodical. My wife is a wildly impressive. Way more impressive than me, way smarter than me, especially on the financial side of things. She had a very successful career in finance before deciding to work inside the home full time. And she's pretty conservative. So she wanted to see, hey, there's some financial margin for us to be able to make this leap. And I don't think I was fully convinced of my ability to make the leap until we started seeing publishers come to me asking for book two, which eventually was master of one, and then seeing what some of those numbers could have looked like. And then once we saw that, we basically had, I think it was six months of financial Runway in the bank in order for me to write, quote, unquote, full time. And so that's when I said, okay, I've got enough faith now. I didn't know other products we were gonna do. I had no vision into that because I was fully Focused on running Threshold, which was growing like crazy. We grew the team from a dozen people to a hundred ish plus people full time and basically almost full time contractors. By the time I left, I was focused on that job. So I didn't have a ton of vision as to what Jordan Raynerand company, which wasn't even the name, wasn't even in my mind what that would look like. All I knew was there's six months of financial Runway. I think the Lord is multiplying this work, and I'm gonna step out in faith and figure it out. And by God's grace alone, I think we're figuring it out. Right. He's really been blessing everything that the team, yourself included, has been working on these last two years.

Yeah, yeah. And I love that you didn't have it all figured out before making that leap. I feel like it really reminds me of one of my favorite devotionals you've done, Stop Waiting for peace.

Yeah.

Where you kind of just like debunk this myth that Christians are supposed to wait for this overwhelming sense of peace that God is supposed to grant them in order to be confident enough to make a decision. And when in reality, like Jesus's death on the cross grants us that lasting peace and security that allows us to step out and boldly take big swings. That had to be part of it. Right. Because you weren't certain about the path that was ahead.

Yeah. I don't know how much of that was conscious, how much of it was subconscious, just being in the word on a regular basis. But yeah, as I talk about a lot, the gospel is the ultimate resource in order for us to take big swings, to take risks. Right. I think the gospel compels us to take risks in order to serve people. Well, honestly, a big part of the calculus for me with Threshold, which, by the way, was an incredibly difficult decision. I want to make that, like, very clear. This was not obvious. It was obvious that the Lord was blessing my writing, but he was also blessing Threshold. And it was kind of the entrepreneurial dream. We had. Great investors, have great investors, great team that was growing like crazy too. So the Lord was clearly blessing both things. But, you know, part of my calculus was which of these roles, CEO of this tech startup or writing full time, Being this content entrepreneur can I most uniquely fulfill. Because in reality, when I decided to look for successor Threshold, there were hundreds, maybe thousands of people in this world who were able and willing to do that job as well, if not better than me on the book writing side of things. I'm Looking around, looking. Looking for people who are raising their hands and saying, I can think of 30 different books, 50 different podcasts, 20 Netflix specials that help the church connect the gospel of their work, and nobody was raising their hands. I was. I was also skilled at it. And so it was blue ocean in the sense of nobody serving this need, or very few people are serving this need that I think needs to be met in the world. And so while financially it was likely the far less lucrative path, I thought it was the best path, the most unique path, and the path that I needed to choose. Yeah, I don't know. They weren't entirely pure motives. There's also a lot of notoriety that comes with being an author. That was very attractive to me, if I'm being honest. And that's pride that I have to wrestle to the ground on a constant basis. But that was the main piece of that equation for me.

Yeah. Yeah.

I don't know if I answered your question. I can't remember.

No, no, no, you definitely did. No, I love that. I think that's a big piece of the puzzle. You talk a lot about it in Master of One. This idea of how can you uniquely serve people with the gifts that God has given you? So I love that you're occupying that lane. So this is episode 100, so naturally, we have to be reflecting on some of the past episodes.

Oh, man.

I'm really curious, as we're talking about your path to mastery, specifically which guests pop into your head of having the most interesting or craziest path to the work that they're doing today.

That's a really good question. I was prepared for a variation of this question, but not this question. The most interesting path. I really loved the story of Mignon Francois, the founder of the cupcake collection in Georgetown. I mean, it's just a fascinating story. Just taking literally the last $5 in her bank account and seeing the Lord multiplied. What I like about it is she's very careful not to tell this, I pulled myself up by my own bootstraps kind of story. She gives all credit to God. The other one that comes to mind is Amy Downes, right?

Yes.

That's where you're leading me. Amy Downes. Fair warning. Everyone listening. I don't think we're ever gonna top that episode. It was an incredible episode. If you haven't listened to it, go listen to it now. But just this story of, yeah, 300 something, 50 pounds, college dropout, something like a 1.5 GPA. Could not care less about her work. She's in the Oklahoma City bombing has a very, in a very real way come to Jesus moment as she thinks she's dying in the bottom of the rubble and changed her life, but really changed her perspective on her work. Hoping to recognize work as a gift. Work is something that's meant to be stewarded in service of others. I loved when she was talking about how she viewed her relationships with her co workers differently after the maze. She's literally sitting across the desk from a woman who's pregnant who lost her life in the bombing. And that'll compel you to want to make disciples at work more than anything else. Just an incredible story of God's grace and just God and His goodness and his sovereignty using something as tragic as the Oklahoma City bombing for good and for his glory. It's a really beautiful story, an incredible path.

Incredible episode. I remember when I was taking notes on that one, I had to listen to it like three or four times because I stopped in the middle just in awe of what she was saying. I also love Diane Latiker's story.

Yeah.

Just feeling so ill equipped for what she felt God had called her to do. But remaining so faithful in that and like inviting the children around her into her home, finding herself caught in between an AK 47 and 50 kids. That episode was also insane. A great package path.

This theme of embracing our inadequacies is something that I've been thinking about and writing about a lot lately. One of the most popular devotionals I've written in the last year, honestly, was on First Corinthians 1 where Paul's saying, hey, where were you before God called you? Not many of you were wise. Not many of you came from wealthy backgrounds, privileged backgrounds. And his whole point is 8. Embrace that. Embrace your inadequacies. Embrace the fact that God has called you to this work even though you are unqualified. Because as he produces results through you, he alone will get the glory.

Right?

Right. It's beautiful. If you missed that devotional, we'll try to link to it right here, but you can find it@jordanraynor.com TWBW but people really resonate with that. Cause I think it fights against this garbage self help content that is dominating the Internet today, right? That like, no, you're enough and you're awesome and you can do it. The whole message of scripture is that we are not enough. That's the whole point. We're not enough. Only God can produce results through us. And as we trust in that, as we embrace that, it humbles us, it leads us to worship, and it just recognizes the truth, that it is God alone who works through us to accomplish his purposes in the world. So it's something I've been thinking a lot about, and Diane's episode's such a great example that she's like, I can't do this work. I don't know what I'm doing.

Right.

Yeah, that's the point.

Right, Exactly. It's crazy because I think, at least for me, before I was a Christian and became one, the hardest thing for me to grasp was the fact that I was not enough on my own. But then once you realize that God is and that you have access to him through faith in Jesus Christ, it's almost like that weight is lifted off of your shoulders that you're actually thankful that you're not enough. Because then that would mean I have to rely on myself.

Yes.

And now I can rely on my perfect father. So, like, that's what makes these path stories so incredible, because it's like only God could have done this through me, and it's crazy to see those stories.

Amen. Well said.

So you are an exceptional entrepreneur, author, and podcaster. I'm really curious about what skills you think cut across all three of those disciplines.

All right, so I'm excited to talk about this. I'm glad you asked this question, because something's been happening in me over the last. I think it's been three years since I wrote Master one, not since it was released. So, yeah, I mentioned a Master of One. I even mentioned a few minutes ago because we had yet to broach this topic. But my one thing as expressive Master One was entrepreneurship. I believe God has equipped me to be good at the art of taking calculated risks. Not dumb risks, smart risks to create new things for the good of others. And that's been true when I've been running a tech startup like Threshold. It's also true when you're writing and podcasting, you're taking risks to create new things for the good of others. And so I wrote Master of One back in 2018, and I feel like I've become more self aware and have embraced the fact that my one thing is actually getting even more refined and even more narrow. You know, I think if I were writing the book again today, I would have defined my one thing as communications. I think I'm even better at clearly communicating big ideas than I am at looking at a spreadsheet analyzing risk and reward that you typically associate with entrepreneurship. Now, I believe that being a talented Communicator is one of the primary things that makes exceptional entrepreneurs. That is the craft of entrepreneurship. You know, when I, when I look back at my time at Threshold, honestly, most of my job and even most of my job now as CEO of Jordan Rayner and Company and Lean, this team is communicating, it's inspiring. The team casting, vision for investors at Threshold, selling customers, et cetera, it's all communication. But now, as I'm looking out over the next 40, 50 years, Lord willing, of my work here at Jordan Rayner and Company, I want my time to get even more focused on creating content. Right. Communicating exclusively while other leaders within the organization take on other tasks like ops, operations, marketing, product development, finance, whatever. I just want to constantly be in this state of pruning, of doing less and less to focus on my core competency so that you. I could just spend as much time as I can on the things I can do that clearly God has got his hand on. For me, that's communicating. It's writing books, it's hosting this podcast, hosting other podcasts. I literally have three other podcasts that I want to put in development over the next 12 months. That's crazy, right? But if I'm going to do that work, the work I think God has uniquely qualified me to do, I'm not saying I'm unique, I can come back to that in a second. But within this venture, the thing that I can do best to serve the mission, those are the activities that I want to be focused on. But I do think there's a lot of skills that cut across those three disciplines. I think it's comms, I think it's communications.

Yeah, that's so good. I want to dive a little deeper into your work, specifically as an author.

Yeah.

What do you think world class authors do that their less masterful counterparts don't?

My favorite question.

Your favorite question ever.

I really am curious. By the way, if you guys listening have feedback on this, email me. I'm very curious. Jordanrayer.com if people get sick of the same questions like you listen to every episode, did you get sick of it or are the answers different enough?

I think I love these repeated questions because it allows me to like pull out the themes of. Okay, if everybody is saying the same things, like if everyone's saying. The themes that I noticed from this question in particular are like, you have to be disciplined in your craft. You have to pursue excellence. So as I'm hearing that from more and more people, I'm like, oh dang, that's really What I got, what I have to do.

Yeah, that's interesting because if you're hearing that from a NASCAR driver like David Reagan or CEO like Amy Downs and a theologian like N.T. wright, there's got to be something true to that. All right, so I'll answer this question as a writer. What do world class writers do that their less masterful counterparts don't do? I think they read more. Right. So when people ask me, how do you write? Well, like you just read a ton and within your discipline. Right. Like, yeah, I've talked a lot. I think I've talked a lot about this on the podcast. I know I wrote a lot about this in Redeeming youg Time, which is coming out in October. You see that Shameless plug. I did that. So I don't listen to podcasts. I don't watch or listen to the news. I don't read news websites and articles. I pretty much confine myself exclusively to. To full length nonfiction books. And I think it's why I'm good at writing full length nonfiction books and how I maybe people are like, oh, you read so much. Not really. The difference is I only read nonfiction books, whereas other people are listening to podcasts and reading books and reading articles, whatever. I confine myself to that medium. So I think world class writers read more. I also think they outline more. CS Lewis, I gotta find this quote. I may be making this up, but I'm pretty sure I heard this attributed. Lewis once summarized his writing process as know what you want to say, say it, and then say it. Well, so in writing, by the way, this applies to you if you're writing books or emails. Honestly, I do this when I'm writing emails. I know what I want to say. That's outlining. I say it. That's writing in full prose, full sentences. And then I say it. Well, I go back and I edit when I'm writing a book. Like redeeming your time, I actually tracked my time. This time I distinguish between writing in full prose and outlining. I think it was like 65 or 70% of my time was spent outlining in the writing process. So just getting really clear on what I want to say before I move out of bullet points and start writing in full on sentences and paragraphs. Basically, I know it's time to transition from Evernote where I outline to. To Google Docs where I write in full paragraphs. When my Evernote basically becoming full sentences, I'm like, all right, it's time to. It's time to transition over. So I think that's the delta. I don't know. It's hard to tell when you're in it. Right?

No, yeah, that's good. I mean, I think committing to write a book, right, is a big deal. And I know from working with you how many ideas you have all the time swirling in your head. How in the world do you choose what ideas you're going to write about? Like how do you know this is the idea that's the book? How do you discern?

It's so hard. I test content and see what people need. Right. So redeeming your time started as a youversion plan two or three years ago called Time Management Principles from God's word. I've got 40 something plans up on youversion right now. If you want to find them, just search Rayner R A Y N O R. You can find them all. And yeah, out of those 40 plans that time management principle one has been subscribed to almost 600,000 times. My average plan has like 20,000 subscriptions. Right. It's the 8020 principle. Once I saw that, I just knew. I was like, that's the book.

Right.

I didn't have a full vision for the book, but that's how I test. Content typically is through the word before work devotionals, which eventually get published to you version. And then just looking at what are people really responding to, what are people asking questions about and want me to go deeper on. But even then you still have. I'm writing a five book deal right now. I already have four more solid, I think solid book concepts after the five book deal. Right. So it is hard to choose within that. And we try to be strategic. I think if I were to go back and I actually think I'm writing my books in reverse order right now, which is kind of funny. Like called to create was kind of my entry into the market. I knew I wanted it to be hyper niche. I wanted to say, yeah, like with that book, it's just for Christian entrepreneurs because I knew I had to have a wedge to break into publishing. But then, master of one, we were really strategic. I was like, nope, we're gonna write this gospel work content for all Christians. So that's like the what work book. Like what work has God called me to do in the world? Redeeming your time is really the how book. I mean there could be a lot of how books. You could write one on redeeming your time. You could write one on how to trust God at work. You could write one on how to embrace your Inadequacies, whatever. There's a million books there. But redeeming your time is the one that I was, like, really passionate about to get first in terms of how do we do our work in response to the Gospel. But I'm already thinking about. I really don't have a why book. I got lots of content on why, lots of devotionals, but no book on that. And so that's probably the next. Next. Next book is the why book, which will kind of be the precursor to Prologue. I don't know, whatever. To all the other books. Yeah.

Wow. So exciting. I can't believe you have so many books already. It's. It's crazy when you're thinking of these topics or ideas. I'm really curious about how these even come about. So, like, do you find that you're inspired by Scripture first and then you work it out into a book, or is it more you have an idea or a topic you're hearing from the audience and then you look to Scripture?

Yeah, that's a good question. I've seen it happen both ways, honestly. I mean, called the Great was born out of a rereading of Genesis 1 and 2. Right. It happens all sorts of ways. Master of One was really born out of hearing people struggle perennially with focus. Right. And focus in their myriad of professional commitments. But it was also, my pastor was preaching through First Peter at the time and preaching through First Peter 2:9 and how we are to declare the excellencies of the One who has called us. So it's not always clean cut. Right. I think the Spirit just moves in my heart as I'm in the Word and as I'm having conversations with the readers. I do try to talk to readers a lot. I don't think I'm great at this. I want to get better at it. But it's part of the reason why we have such a large launch team. And I talk to them so much. I want to get feedback and understand what people need. So it's both. That's a bad answer, but that's my answer. I'm sticking to it.

That's good. All right, so reflecting on the past 100 episodes of the Thought of Mastery, what are some of the major themes that you've noticed about what it takes to be a master of any craft?

So it's funny, when you were asking the question a few minutes ago about people's answer to the what do the most masterful performers do that their less masterful counterparts don't do? The number one thing that jumps out to my mind is humility.

Yes, humility.

Like that is the theme. And I think that shows up in two ways, Right. One is how people get feedback on their work. I talked a lot about this in Master of One in the chapter on mastery, right? So many guests, from athletes to entrepreneurs to writers to theologians, whatever, talk so much about getting feedback on their work early and often, right? So entrepreneurs get it from their customers, authors get it from the readers, doctors get it from other doctors. I remember my friend Lindsay Ray, who was talking about that. And then, man, I wish you guys could hear the off mic conversations that I have with guests. When we turn the microphone off, you see humility pop up, especially before we start recording. I've had many guests say, hey, Jordan, I'm really excited to do this, but just adds up. Like, I don't consider myself a master. Yeah, that's a pretty frequent refrain. And I think that's the point, Right? Like, truly masterful performers don't believe they ever become a master. They believe in the call to mastery, in the pursuit of it, but it is a lifelong pursuit. So that's number one. Just this constant, humble mindset. Here's the other thing, the other big theme I've taken away from these episodes. Almost every guest, especially when they're talking about their daily routines, talks about starting the day in the word.

Yes. Yes.

I don't want us to miss this and gloss over this. These are some of the busiest human beings on the face of the Earth. Greg Brennaman, who ran Continental Airlines. Janine Uzel, who's running Wikipedia's 500, 700 person team, whatever. They're the busiest people on the planet. And the most frequent excuse people make to not being in the word every day is, I don't have the time.

Right.

If there's anyone that doesn't have the time, it is these people. Trust me.

Right. Yeah.

It's just a keystone habit. I talk about this in Redeeming youg Time. It's the keystone habit that makes every other time management happy easier. And I impact that a lot in the book. And I think. Can I give one more?

Yeah, give as many as you want.

All right, Sorry, this is just coming to me. Just this theme of we touched on a few minutes ago. Right. Maybe I'm reading into this. I don't know that anyone's ever said it this explicitly, but this theme that the gospel is both the source of our ambition and our rest. Right. I think you see that in a lot of our guests. I think you see how the Gospel is a sense of peace. How these guests have peace with God. As Paul says in Romans 5:1, regardless of how productive they are, they know their work doesn't merit any favor from God. And yet I think of Ephesians 2, right? Ephesians 2, 8, 9. Paul says, for it is by grace you have been saved through faith. This is not for yourselves. It is the gift of God. Not by work, so that no one can boast. But the very next verse. We Rarely quote Ephesians 2. 10 in conjunction with 8, 9, the very next verses. For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works.

Yeah.

So we're not saved by works, but we're created for good works so that he would get glory. Right. We are saved to do good works. God has justified us so that we don't have to worry about our eternal security.

And.

And we can go out in the world and we can take really big swings because there is kingdom building work left to do in the world. I think that's what a lot of our guests get, that the Gospel gives them rest so that they could be ambitious to go do the work, as Ephesians 2:10 says, that God prepared in advance for them to do.

Yeah. No, I love that. I love all those themes. And I think that leads them to just this relentless commitment to excellence, which I think all. All of the guests have had. Like, they understand that they're created by a perfect God, and their job throughout their work is to portray his image as excellence at the ministry of excellence. And I also thought it was cool to see. I mean, this might not be as true for solopreneurs or anyone working on their own, but anybody that was a leader or in charge of a team talked so much about the importance of pouring into their team first, beyond anything, beyond the customers.

Interesting. I noticed that. That's interesting.

Yeah. And I loved that, because you don't hear that. Talked about it as much. I don't remember who exactly said the quote. I think it might have been Graham Cochran or Brett Hagler. One of them talked about how your customers are only as satisfied as your team. Something like that. I probably butchered that quote.

Yes.

But they talked so much about that, which I thought was really, really interesting.

Yeah. I think Brett talked about this. I also know Joel Manby talked about this.

I think maybe it was Joel's quote.

Yeah. I think the exact quote is, I'm gonna butcher it too. But customer satisfaction never rises above the level of team.

Yes.

Satisfaction. Which, by the way, I Can't remember if I've mentioned this on the podcast, but I thought about this the last time I was at Disney. You wanna see a case study of this, go to Disney and then go to Universal Studios or Busch Gardens. There's a marked difference. Right? Because the team at Disney is hyper, engaged and satisfied and thus that rubs off on guests. So, by the way, you're way more qualified to answer these questions reflecting on the past 100 episodes, because you actually listen to every single one and dissect them. I think we should turn the mic back around and you.

No, no, no, no. I love it. All right, Jordan, we know you are obsessed with daily routines.

I am.

So now it's time to hear yours. Take us through the TikTok of your day.

The TikTok of your day. I think I got that term for the White House. I can't remember what they called it, but the President's daily schedule, I'm pretty sure they call it the TikTok. West Wing fans, fact check me on this. Or actual White House staffers in the non fictionalized White House. All right, so my daily routine. I wake up at the same time every morning. I wake up at 5am I spend the first hour of my day in the Word and in prayer. Prayer before the kids get up. Although my kids are usually up at like 5:30, something like that. But they know to stay in the room until 6:00 clock when Daddy's done reading the word. 6:00am Kids come out, I make breakfast for them. My wife usually sleeps in or works out and then does her quiet time in the room without the kids. So I'm with the kids from 6 to 6:45. We do breakfast. We been doing the New City catechism for the past. We're on week 37, something like that. Which P.S. is the greatest thing I've ever done in terms of discipling my kids. I'm so grateful for Keller and Colin Hansen at the Gospel Coalition for putting it together. So do catechism. 6:45, Kara comes out. I'm still with the kids. I'm also getting ready, getting dressed. Not that I'm not dressed with my kids. That sounded really weird. But until, I don't know, 7:15, 7:30, taking the kids to school. Although right now we're in summer, so we're not doing that. And then I'm at my desk at 7:45 and 7:45 to 9:45am every single day are dedicated to books, whatever book I'm writing or researching right now. So for the last three months I've been reading through the Bible straight through. Obviously I've read through the Bible a number of times, but this was the first time I read through it. Just looking for what it says about our work explicitly or how we can apply the word to our work. So that's 7:45. 9:45. 9:45 most days doesn't always end up this way. Go for a run. That's a good break from deep work. Go for a run, take a shower. Back at my desk at 10:30, do another two hour block of deep work. 15 minute break. Eating lunch. Back for another 90 minute block of deep work. 15 minute Break, wash dishes again. This is edited every day, but this is the standard, my time budget template. And then the afternoon I spend about an hour and a half doing shallow work, checking email. I love sending videos to readers. Usually if anyone ever like writes in, like, I love this book, I love the podcast, I'm sending them a video. Thank you. I want them to know that they're seen sending videos to fans. And then I got usually an hour's worth of calls at the end of the day, either with the Christian entrepreneurs that I coach in my mastermind or whatever. And that's it. Five o', clock, I'm done. Done. I check email once a day. I don't look at email after 5 o'. Clock. 5 o', clock, I come downstairs. I work at home. Come downstairs with the kids from 5 till 7 ish when they go to bed. Kara and I hang out from 7 till 8:30. 8:45. And I'm in bed by 8:45.

And you wake up and do it all again.

I'm an old man. The summary of the story is I'm old. It's not just the gray hair that makes me old. It's also my 8:45 bedtime.

Yeah, I love that.

It's very boring. Which is also a theme.

That is a theme. They all have the same exact method of what they do every single day.

Mastery is mundane.

There you go.

It's very mundane.

You guys can tweet that. I love it. So you mentioned your quiet time in the morning before everybody wakes up.

Yeah.

What does that look like for you?

Yeah, I desperately want it to look exactly the same, like for the rest of my life, but it doesn't. I find that I've got to change things up every, I don't know, let's call it three months. But typically what I do, I love following Martin Luther's method for scripture study and prayer. So Luther would take a passage of scripture, let's call it a chapter, right? And then he would pick out a specific verse to meditate on. He'd write out the verse, right, so that he's actually thinking about it a little bit more intentionally. And then he would pray what the verse is instructing him to do, what the verse can lead us to. Praise God for, not thank him for what he's done, just praise him for what the verse says about his character, right. Then write out a confession of how this verse reveals where I've fallen short of the glory of God. And then kind of moving into prayer, specifically asking for help, living out this command and then just open ended prayer. And so typically that's what that hour looks like for me. The other thing that I alternate between when I feel like I'm in a rut and I'm just. My quiet times are stale, which happens, right, is I will pick up a commentary, typically by N.T. wright or Tim Keller. Keller's got some amazing accessible commentaries, not like theological academic commentaries. He's got one on Galatians called Galatians for you. He's got Romans for you, judges for you. And N.T. wright, both of these guys have been on the podcast, which blows my freaking mind. NT Wright has these amazing commentaries for every book of the New Testament and they're just, they're extraordinary. They're so good. So I'll read that passage of scripture, I'll read his commentary, and then I'll just kind of open ended pray. I won't go through the Luther method. I'll just kind of pray. But usually I'm writing out my prayers, otherwise I can't stay focused. My mind wanders and goes off in a million different directions. Yeah.

Yeah. Wow. I love that. I've never tried those commentaries, so I'll have to.

They're amazing.

Look em up.

They're old. The NT Wright ones are like 25 years old. They hold up. They're amazing.

I love it. So obviously you're super disciplined to a fault.

Yeah.

Have you always been like that?

Yeah. Yeah, I think, I think I can't. People tell me I was born a 55 year old man, you know, this. Super disciplined. Yeah. I think I've always been like this.

That's what I thought.

Yeah.

What advice do you have for people that aren't.

Yeah.

Super naturally disciplined and how can they still be wildly productive?

Yeah. Can I pitch? Redeeming your tongue. Is this. Was this the softball? So let me say this. I want to talk about the dark side of Discipline for a second. Because I do think there's a huge. There can be a big dark side to discipline. The Bible holds up. Discipline is a very good thing. I think it's something we all should be striving for. Why? Because we are to redeem the time. Because the days are evil and we are running out of time to do the work that God has invited us to. He doesn't need us to do the work, but he's invited us to partake in it during this lifetime.

Right?

That's who he is, to be disciplined. Jesus was crazy disciplined. Paul talks about discipline running the race. He says that we're not called to run the race aimlessly. We are called to be disciplined in everything that we do. That said, discipline, as with any good thing, can easily become an idol, especially for type A people like you, like me. And I'm preaching to myself here, right? And I know that discipline has become an idol. If one of two things happen, there's kind of two big symptoms I look for. One is I'm unable to extend grace to other people. Yeah, right. So if my wife, unfortunately, it's usually taken out on her. I find that I'm way more gracious with my team than I am with my spouse, which I'm ashamed of. And I don't know someone out there can break that down for me as to why that is. But, you know, if Kara forgets to do something, I can get upset about that and snap. Or if some member on my team drops a ball. Like, my temptation could be to help them, but I could also feel superior to them without ever saying it. If I'm having coffee to somebody and they're like, man, I'm really struggling with my quiet time and being in the word every day, my natural inclination, my first response is to help them. Hey, let's talk about that. Let's help you get back on track. Yeah, I'll keep you accountable, whatever. But on my worst days, I can also be prideful, and I'm being better than them. It's like the ugliest form of pride. So if I'm unable to extend grace with other people, I know I've crossed over to the dark side of discipline. The other one, which is honestly a bigger struggle with me, is when I'm unable to extend grace to myself, right? When instead of getting four hours of deep work a day, I got two, because I don't know, for reasons X, Y, and Z, I could be very, very hard on myself. And I think in that is a forgetfulness, a Temporary amnesia and forgetfulness of the gospel and just remembering that God loves me and accepts me regardless of how productive I am, regardless of how disciplined I am. So, all right, with that caveat of the dark side of discipline, Yes, I do think we are all called to be disciplined. Maybe not as type A disciplined as Jordan Rayner or other people who are more disciplined than me, but no, I do think we're called to that. And how do you do it, man? There's a long answer to that question. Honestly, redeeming your time really is a solution. So go pre order the book or wait until October when it's out. But I will say this. I've helped coach a lot of people who were not disciplined and became disciplined, who thought discipline was life sucking and came out on the other side of it and realized it's actually incredibly life giving. Right. It's like a financial budget. People think that financial budgets are constraints when in reality they free you up to know exactly where your money's going. The same is true with being disciplined with your time of just proactively knowing ahead of time how you're gonna spend it. It actually gives you more freedom with your schedule. So that's why I hope people see in the book.

And yeah, yeah, I love that. So go pre order the book.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay. So reflecting again on all these episodes that we've done, are there any disciplines or daily habits that you've heard from guests that you've actually implemented?

That's a great question. Yeah. Missy Wallace, we're going way back, talked about her quarterly Days of Solitude. And I think I'd done that once, maybe twice before that. But hearing her talk about how rich and significant those days were for her led me to make that something that I just don't sacrifice anymore. Every quarter, I have a day alone to just go away, pray, think. And I also do work during that time. I set goals for the next quarter. So I use kind of the first half of the day is just praying, reflecting, being silent, trying to figure out where the Lord is leading me in my work and my team's work in the life of my family. And then I sit down usually that same day. Sometimes I spread it out over two days and actually draft goals. I set okrs, objectives and key results for the business and for my family, which I then talk to Kara with. And we kind of refine those together. But I do those on those days of solitude. So, yeah, I got that from Missy. Trying to think if there are any others. Again, I don't think it was new for me, but my commitment to solitude, my commitment to rest on a daily basis has been fermented, has been solidified as a result of hearing so many guests.

Yeah.

Talk about, again, busiest people in the world. A lot of them, not all of them, but a lot of them are getting eight hours of sleep. Right. And. And some of those people wake up early, some of them wake up late, but they're getting good sleep. Right. And so I've been way more fanatical about that since starting the show.

Yeah, that's good. I know. For me, one thing, you were already good at this before this episode, but I loved when you and Cal Newport talked about this idea of literally focusing on one task at a time, not just vocationally, like, one thing. But I think he said, you know, today I'm going to fix the fence on the farm, and then after that is done, I will work on the tractor. Like, one thing at a time. And just being disciplined enough to choose to not be preoccupied with so many tasks, because that's overwhelming. And you don't get anything done as a result of that. Yeah, I thought that was really good.

I mean, we were just having coffee before this, and I showed you my. I don't think I've ever talked about this. I have omnifocus, which is my commitment tracking system. It's where I keep all my to dos and projects. About a year ago, I started a separate document, very, very, very simple Google Doc called this, then that. It's just for me. Nobody else has access to it, but it's basically like, all right, here is the sequence of the next new things I'm going to tackle. And I only tackle one new thing at a time, right? So recurring stuff. There's stuff I gotta do every day. Gotta check email. Right. Gotta do the podcast every month. But in terms of new initiatives, right, New podcasts, possibly new products that we would introduce to the audience. I try as best I can. I'm not perfect at, but I try to do one new thing at a time until it's done, and then I move on to the next thing.

Yeah, I love it.

Yeah.

All right, Jordan, you're the faith and work guy. Your whole mission is around helping Christians understand that their work is significant, that it matters to God, it matters for serving others, and can be used for building the kingdom. I'm really curious, though, why you think so many people lack this solid theology of work to no fault of their own. But isn't it talked about more?

I've been thinking a lot about this for four years now. This is an epidemic in the church. I do think it's getting better, right? I'm so grateful for the many people doing this work. I very much subscribe to Simon Sinek's Infinite Game Idea. Like, I don't see other people in the space as competitors at all. I pray that there are 50 people like me producing this content, so long as it is gospel centric for many years to come. Because I do think this is a big problem. And I think, what's the root cause? That's what you're asking, right? Like, how do we get here? This may sound a little too heady and theological, but honestly, I think this is the issue and I'm gonna talk it a little bit more about this on the podcast. Lately, over the last 200, 250 years of church history, we have been preaching a very different version of the Gospel that was preached for the first 1700 to 1800 years, right? It's not a different gospel so much as it is a truncated gospel. Theologians call it a two chapter gospel Gospel that's all about individual fall, individual redemption. Right? So I am a sinner. Jesus came to save the lost, to save me. I'm good, and now I'm going to heaven when I die. It's kind of been this narrative that's been preached in the church and obviously that is a piece of the biblical narrative, but it's not the whole piece. When you look at the total arc of scripture and it's really a five chapter gospel, you have creation, which what does that mean for our work? It means that work is good. It means that the material world is good. Then you have fall, then you have redemption. But you don't just have redemption. Jesus, ascension, which we don't talk about enough. We talk a lot about the cross, we talk a lot about the resurrection, we don't talk a lot about the ascension. But the Ascension is what made way for the Holy Spirit to come into our lives so that God could do his work in the world through human beings. Right? So chapter four is all about restoration, about taking this creation and making it more like the Garden of Eden, making it more like what it's going to be like on the new Earth when heaven comes to earth. And the final chapter, which is humbling to our work in the present, is consummation. We're not going to build the kingdom on our own. We're here to restore creation the best of our ability through the power of the Spirit. But ultimately there's this consummation of Heaven and earth, in the end, when Christ is going to finish that work, and when it's only chapters two and three, individual fall, individual redemption. Who cares about work?

Seriously?

Like, sure, I care about the work that people are doing to fight for life. We're pro life because we want to save these baby souls. But, like, who cares about justice right at that point if everything's going to burn up in the end? And he also speaks to this, like, hyper individualistic trend that we've seen, especially in the West. Sorry, I'm not trying to get too, like.

No, yeah.

I mean, theologically, we're like, we're living in the most individualistic culture of all time. It's all about me. And I think we'd be lying to ourselves if we didn't think that that shaped our theology. When it's all about me, once I'm saved, cool, I'm good to go. And I'm just here waiting around until eternity. That is not. We just Talked about Ephesians 2:10. We have been put right so that we could do good works and advance the kingdom, restore creation right now in the present, until the final consummation of heaven and earth.

Right, right. Yeah. It's that emphasis on purely saving souls is the only, only reason, like, I've never heard a sermon ever on Jesus being a carpenter or on Paul being a tent maker and building relationships that way. Or how in the Garden of Eden before the Fall, God put Adam to work. Like Genesis 2:15 says, the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of even to work it and to take care of it. Clearly work is inherently good and a part of this restoration project and not something that just keeps us preoccupied until we go to heaven. Right, Yeah. I think when you talk about the chapter two and three, I think it can lead a lot of Christians to having this view of work with an Ecclesiastes lens.

Right.

Everything's meaningless. So I'll work hard to provide for my family, because that's what I have to do. But I'm just waiting for heaven. And I will glorify God outside of work.

Totally. I think a lot more believers have an understanding of chapter five, consummation, that heaven is going to come to earth. Although not enough Christians understand this. Right. But I think a lot more do than this theology of work. But it's the first fourth chapter that really changes our perspective on work. And really the marriage of chapter one in Genesis and creation and chapter four and restoration. Think about Genesis 1 through 3:1 and 2, especially God created the world. But he left it largely empty.

Right.

And could not say of his work that it was very good until he created Adam and Eve to work together to cultivate and fill this earth. This is exactly what happened at Easter. Jesus the God man inaugurates the new earth and then calls the church to be his Adam and Eve.

Right?

To go out and garden this new creation. That's the connection. That's what we gotta see. It's no accident that the tomb was in a garden, that Jesus was mistaken for the gardener when he appeared to Mary. It's a tale of two gardens. Forget about Tale of Two Cities. It's a tale of two gardens. And that has radical implications for how we think about the meaning of our work today in creating a signposts towards the kingdom.

This is beautiful. It's like this crazy awesome invitation to co create with God. And I love that. So you shared earlier that you just finished this massive project going through the entire Bible specifically looking for scripture on work. I would love to hear some of your takeaways from that.

Oh man. So I literally just finished logging my notes on this this morning when you and I were at the coffee shop working together. Biggest takeaways, all of scripture. All of scripture, all throughout the Old Testament, all throughout the New Testament. I think I have a verse logged in every single book of the Bible. Bible that applies to our work. Not all of them talk about work explicitly. Right, But God has a lot to say about work all throughout scripture in terms of what he's saying. The biggest themes for me in terms of theme counts in my evernote are number one, God works through people. We don't talk about this enough. If you really want a good theology, go read N.T. wright's God in the Pandemic. Very short book. Great introduction to NT Wright. Beautiful exposition on how God works through people. And that may sound odd in the pandemic topic, but it's great. So that's number one, God works through his people. God is always, since Genesis 1 and 2, wanted to do his work through faithful human beings in this world. Right? We are not God. We don't create exactly like Him. He's going to finish the work and doesn't need us. But he graciously invited, invites us to be a part of that project. Number two is just humility. Humility, humility, humility. God is constantly judging the proud. God is constantly reminding us that while work is good, he alone produces results through our work. And that should lead us to humility and also freedom of just recognizing that John Piper. I read a John Piper quote the other day which perfectly summarizes this. My job is faithfulness. God's job is fruitfulness. He produces fruit through the work. I'm just called to be faithful.

Yeah.

And do it well, serve people well, do it obediently, in obedience with God's word. And so that theme, those themes of God works through human beings, of humility and just humbling ourselves in our work. Honestly, those are the two that just jump off the page. That I have. 150 passages of scripture plus just about those two topics. Right. It's crazy. I'm so excited about this product. You guys are going to see the fruit of this project for a very long time. I haven't done the final note count yet, but I bet it's, I don't know, 700, 800 passages of scripture.

I love that.

Yeah.

That's awesome. So I was on a call with you recently and I loved this thing that you said about the Sabbath. You said we often think about the Sabbath as a bunch of things we're not allowed to do. But I see Sabbath as a sea of get to in a world of have to. I loved that. Can you talk a little bit more about what finding this true rest looks like for you and how it's impacted your work?

Yeah. So my family didn't Sabbath. Nobody I knew Sabbathed observed the Sabbath in any serious way. Growing up, we treated the fourth command kind of as this thing you can ignore. Kind of like the speed limit. But about five years ago, I was just in a particularly crazy season. And maybe it was four years ago, I can't remember. But it was during writing a releasing call to create. I can't remember exactly. I was running Threshold. We had two very young kids. Life was crazy and I just needed rest. And so John Mark Comer was actually really the one who convinced me to give Sabbath a shot. And I'm not going to argue whether or not Sabbath is still commanded. Whatever. You can go read Jesus own words here in the New Testament about Sabbath. But I always thought Sabbath was just this very highly regulated thing which the Israelites did highly regulate. There's more than 1500 regulations the Israelites had on Sabbath. They sucked the life out of it. I just saw it as this day of things filled with things you couldn't do. You couldn't watch tv, you couldn't drive to restaurants, whatever. And over time, I've seen that Sabbath from my family. Yes, there are a lot of things we don't do. We don't talk about productive things. We talk about work in the context of what we're calling grateful for the Lord doing through our work, but not worrying about what's coming up in the week ahead. But a lot of it are things that we get to do. We spend more time in the Word. We spend time with our church family. We feast on the Word in that way. We also feast on, like, the material world. We save our best meals for Saturday night. We order takeout from our favorite restaurants. We order crumble cookies like cookie addicts. I think we're on like 27 weeks in a row from cross crumble cookies, which is a little depressing. We eat the best foods. We hang out as a family. It's just a day enjoying the good things God has already given us in and through our work and our lives. Feasting on His Word and just resting and recognizing that even if I don't do anything else productive in this life, even if God doesn't give me anything else in this life, I could be content with what he's given me and ultimately being content in what he's given me in Christ. Right? Which is this eternal hope and peace that Paul talks about in Romans 5. 1.

Beautiful. I love that. All right, three questions you always wrap up with.

I love. I came prepared for these.

Good. I hope you did. I mean, I added one extra.

Oh, my gosh. Geez.

For episode 100.

Okay, great.

All right. Which books do you recommend or give to others most frequently? But you can't say your own.

All right. So I most frequently asked for books on time management because I think people know me as a disciplined guy, and I think the Lord's given me a lot of grace in this area. And I used to recommend, literally in the course of a conversation, like, upwards of a dozen books on this topic, because each of those books focus on an important piece of the puzzle. Right. And especially within that vein, I would recommend Deep Work by Cal Newport and Getting Things Done by David Allen. The problem is somebody struggling with time management. The last thing they want to hear is, is that they have to read 12 books. They don't have time to read one book, much less 12 books. And honestly, this is part of the reason why I wrote Redeeming youg Time. I saw in the Life of Christ these seven timeless time management principles that tied everything together. So I've taken the best of more than 40 time management books that I've read over the course of my life and only kept the stuff that you could clearly see in the life of Christ. Obviously not the practices. Jesus didn't have it to do list or a smart watch. Right. But principles such as letting your yes be yes, starting with the word dissenting from the Kingdom of Noise. I can't wait to get that book in everybody's hands. You guys are going to love it. So, honestly, I don't recommend time management books anymore. Wait for Redeeming your time in October. And that really is the last thing I have to say about time management. I finished writing that book six months ago, seven months ago. And I have probably heard 30 questions on time management since then. Every single one of them has been answered in this book, which I love. Yeah, I'm super proud of that. So today, what's left? What books do I have left to recommend? Jesus Storybook Bible by Sally Lloyd Jones. If you, Jenna, and Adam ever have kids, I promise you you'll be getting a copy of the Jesus Storybook Bible from Jordan Raynor. It is connecting the whole of scripture to the life of Christ and ultimately the Gospel. It's beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. We buy it all the time. And by the way, I actually looked at Amazon. I didn't use my gut to come up with these books. I was like, what books do I actually buy for people? So these are the ones. Jesus Storybook Bible, by far number one, ruthless elimination of Hurry by my good friend John Mark Comer. Which I do talk about Redeem youg Time, but people should still go read that in its entirety. It's a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful book. Every good endeavor by Tim Keller I'll recommend Even after my why book comes out. Keller's is the gold standard. And then for business leaders, I've been recommending and buying a lot of copies of no Rules Rules. You've heard me talk about this book a hundred times by Reed Hastings from Netflix. And then the last one, which is just fun, entertaining read. It is technically a business book, but my wife, who doesn't read business books, loved it. I think I've talked about a hundred times on the podcast is Shoe Dog. I just think Shoe Dog might be the best book ever written. Like, in terms of pure entertainment value and just beautiful writing. Shoe Dog, the story of Nike is absolutely exceptional. I read it every year, something like that. It's great.

Wow. Awesome. Well, you guys can find Those all on jordanrayer.com bookshelf look at you.

Look at you. I'm so proud.

Thanks. All right, what one person would you most like to hear on this podcast?

I couldn't come up with one.

You couldn't?

No. No way.

You had all your dream guests.

Well, so here's the deal. That is part of the. Like, honestly, Keller NT Wright, like, I kind of. Yeah, Keller was guess number one through ten, right on my list. So I don't know. No, I do have a lot, though. Dr. Francis Collins, head of the National Institute of Health that's been in charge of directing funds for research of COVID vaccines. Serious believer, very close to Tim Keller. He's agreed to come on the podcast after the craziness of COVID you know, wears off, which I still think they're pretty busy with this. So Frank Collins, Cher Wang, the founder of htc, which used to be, well, still is a huge manufacturer smartphones. She a pretty serious believer based in Taiwan. Justin Paul. Justin Paul might be number one. I hope Justin hears this. Somebody who knows Justin, send this to Justin. Justin, from what I can tell, is a serious believer. He wrote all the music to Dear Evan Hansen and the Greatest Showman. And I'm a huge musical fan. I love those two shows. I really want Justin Paul on. I got Jen Wilkin. Jen, you're not returning my calls. Am I allowed to do that? Jen is always welcome. And then, big dream here. I want to do back to back episodes with President Bush and President Carter. Like, I think it'd be fascinating. Two people who, based on reputation, are both serious followers of Christ, have radically different political ideologies, and have both occupied the Oval Office. I think that would be dynamite.

That would be awesome.

Yeah.

All right, well, those all better get on. He said, I don't have any. Yes, you did. All right, I'm adding this question before the last one because you have to ask this on episode 100. What's been your favorite episode so far?

All right, I did anticipate this one. Again, I can't choose. Just like, guess I want most. So here's what I did. Instead of choosing a favorite, I created five superlatives. Okay.

I love that.

By the way, were you most likely to succeed in high school?

I don't remember.

Yeah, you do. You were most likely to succeed, right?

I don't know.

Yeah, you were. Yeah, you were. She. It's so humble. All right, here we go. Most theologically rich N.T. wright.

Yes.

Best guest. Nobody has ever heard of. Easy, Jenna Fortier.

Because I'm probably the only one nobody's.

Ever heard of legitimately. If you have not listened to Jenna's episode, it is lights out. Good. I mean, it was so good. After we stopped recording, I was like, I'm hiring you. I don't know for what role. Very undisciplined move. All right, most under downloaded episode. Because I'll say a lot of times there are episodes that I just think are fire good and nobody cares about them. Two of those for me are Janine Uzel.

Yeah.

The CEO of Wikipedia. That episode didn't do well. I think it's amazing.

Yeah.

And my buddy Will Weatherford, who was at the time, he was the speaker of the House for the state of Florida. Pretty impressive. He was very young when he did it. He's the youngest head of any state legislative body in US History. It's crazy impressive. And like serious follower of Christ. Pretty moderate in his political beliefs, just like me. I love that episode. But nobody downloaded it. All right, biggest top 10 surprise. I went back, I looked at top 10 most downloaded episodes. Dr. Gisela Kreglinger.

I loved that one.

People are obsessed with this episode.

Yeah.

So remind people if people have a listen, what is this episode?

She's a theologian and wine expert and basically talks about that in tandem and how like we're supposed to bring redemption of all things, including wine and food and all good things that God has created and how she's doing that work today.

We have a lot of wine notes in our audience, obviously, because that episode kills it. Like the top 10 is like the names you would suspect. Keller nt Wright, Candace, Cameron Bure and Dr. Giselle. Dr. Giselle. So that's the biggest top 10 surprise. Although I think show Barack is going.

To beat her show's episode, if you guys haven't listened to it, just came out so good.

All right, my last superlative, best streak of episodes on the podcast. So I had two contenders for this. Episodes 84 through 96, which we just got through, were lights out good 12, 13. I can't do math. That was great. But the best streak in my opinion is episodes 31 through 39. My buddy Sam Eiton at the Snap Bar, Shundron Thomas, Rucho Simons, Tim Keller, Brett Hagler of new story, the people who 3D printed Holmes. Gisela Kreklinger, Joel Manby, the former CEO of SeaWorld. I know this is a lights up lineup.

Yeah, that's a dynamite.

Will Weatherford, who I just mentioned, and my good friend Lindsay Ray, who's a nurse practitioner, who I love you guys, by the way. You guys love episodes with people that nobody's ever heard of. That was a dynamite streak.

I love those superlatives.

You like this?

Yeah.

Yeah. Hang on. What's your favorite episode?

That's such a hard one. I think it changes all the time because I keep hearing great ones. I loved show Baraka's though, so that's a new favorite. I also loved Nick and Allie from NASA. Yeah, that episode was so good. And I've listened to D.N. turner's probably like four times.

Everybody's listened to Dean Turners four times. I think it's like number four, three, something like that. It's really good.

Yeah. All right. What single piece of advice would you give to someone who, like you, is seeking to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others?

Have you listened to the show before?

A couple of times.

All right, guys, this question has been bothering me for a long time. I've hated it for a long time.

You've hated this question?

I've hated this question for a long time. And I've been waiting for episode 100 to change it. And so I'm changing.

Wow. I'm changing the end of an era.

End of an era. Making hard pivots with this show. Here's why I think it's an impossible question.

Right?

Like, one thing of all the wisdom I've collected throughout my career, it's a dumb question. I'm responsible for it. I take full responsibility for it. Although we've gotten some great answers out of it. So I'm changing it. I want to ask, what's one thing from this conversation that you want to reiterate or highlight for people before we sign off that's a little bit more constraining? So I'm actually going to turn it to you. You're going to answer the last question. Gosh, we've been talking for an hour and 17 minutes. This is way too long.

Sorry, guys.

By the way, nobody's going to hear about this pivotal question. Everybody is checked out at this point.

Yeah, they're all gone.

They're all dropped out. So no pressure on your answer. What's one thing you want to reiterate?

I think just what you said about how we need to think beyond chapter two and three of the story of work and how our work is important and can last into eternity and matters for God and matters for serving our neighbors exceptionally well. That's what I would say.

That's a good answer. That was going to be my answer. Boom.

Really? Yeah. Boom. All right. Hey, I just want to commend you for the important work that you're doing in the world today. Teaching, equipping, inspiring Christians to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. You've built this incredible podcast that's provided us with weekly motivation from all these incredible guests, showing us that our specific work, whatever it may be, matters for God. So here's to episode 100 of the Call to Mastery. Can't wait to see what you have in store for the next 100. Thanks.

That was great.

Thanks.

There's no way we would have gotten to episode 100 without you guys if no one was listening to this thing. We stopped making this after 10 episodes. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you all for tuning in week in, week out. You're the reason why we make the show. Hey, I wanted to do something fun for this Special, Special Episode 100. I'd love to see you guys leave a review of the podcast, calling out what your favorite episode of the show has been, because a lot of times, you know, somebody comes to the podcast and they're new to it, they don't know where to start. They see 100 episodes. That's an overwhelming amount of content. So you call it out in the review, put it right there in the headline, who your favorite episode is. Talk in the review about why it's your favorite episode to help new listeners, listeners find the best episodes right off the bat. I love you guys. I'm so grateful to be doing this work with you and for you. God bless. I'll see you next week.