JP Pokluda (Host of the Becoming Something podcast)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back.

Guarantee on this book.

I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me, right. I know this is a very different biography. What is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right?

So that's the first reason this is.

A risk and I'm gonna de risk.

This book for you.

Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended.

End quote.

But here's the thing. In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5meerchristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all the pre order bonuses listed on 5 mereChristians. Calm and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5merechristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast.

I'm Jordan Raynor.

How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or.

Religious professionals, but who work as data analysts Locksmiths and philosophers.

That's the question we explore every week.

And today I'm posing it to my friend, JP Paluda.

He's the host of the wildly popular.

Becoming Something podcast and the lead pastor of Harris Creek Baptist Church in Waco, Texas. The JP is a kindred spirit. We sat down recently to talk about.

Why you should, quote, only do ministry.

Vocational ministry, if you can't do anything else, end quote. We talked about JP's terrifically freeing definition of calling and what dirty bathrooms have to do with the worldview that Mere Christians take into the workplace. Trust me, you are not going to want to miss this episode with my friend, JP Haklua. Jp, welcome to the Mere Christians podcast, man.

Thank you for having me on. So great to be with you. And just to catch up with a friend on the air. Let's go, let's go, let's go.

I can't remember if I told you, I feel like everywhere I go and speak now, somebody comes up is like, oh, man. Yeah, I heard you on the Becoming Something podcast with jp. Shows become kind of a big deal, huh?

We plant those people. And so what we do is we. We figure out where you're going to speak, and then we send some people there, and that's just kind of how we promote the podcast.

I believe it.

I would say likewise, man. I think you're doing such an important work on calling people who are in their positions to faithfulness as believers, where God has called them to be. I. I think that message is so important, and so I just. Man, I'm cheering you on from Waco.

Well, vice versa. I've never been to Waco, by the way.

Well, let's change that immediately.

Let's change that. My wife's been out there, done the whole Magnolia pilgrimage thing.

Well, I have a jet waiting for you outside as soon as we're done, so.

Wonderful. Wonderful. Hey, so I've never heard all the details of your story. I'm really interested to dive in. Like, God saved you later in life, right? Like, what's the story there?

Yeah. And I would just say some confusing aspects of it is I was raised in the church, so I was raised Catholic. My dad was Catholic. My mom was Lutheran. They were. They stayed married and just went to separate churches every Sunday. I never even knew that was weird until I left home. And so sometimes I would go to church with my mom, but most of the time I would go with my dad. I was. I was raised in a Catholic parochial school, so church school had a religion class. For nine years. And so, like, there was a lot of. I was surrounded by a lot of faith. And then when I went to college, I just didn't have that foundational root. I didn't have a real relationship with Jesus. So I did whatever I wanted to do in college, which looks like the sadly typical worldly college life of a lot of partying and sleeping around and all of those, some recreational drug use. And I graduated somehow and moved to Dallas because I was raised on a farm in a small town in South Texas. And so I was like, I got to get away from that as fast as I can. I want the big city. So I moved to Dallas and I. My journey is. I started in corporate America. Didn't really start. I mean, out of college. I worked some odd jobs, you know, Abercrombie and selling gym memberships, and landed a job in telecom and worked for two different, smaller telecom companies until I landed at AT&T, where I was for several years. And at, AT and T, I was kind of climbing the corporate ladder and ended up in their global accounts division. And it was really SBC. And then AT&T merged, and I was there for that merger. And. And so I'm doing that and just. I'm kind of. Everything wrong with Dallas in a person. I want to be a millionaire before I'm 30. I've got the penthouse condo in uptown, the Jaguar S type. I'm that guy. I'm a little bit flashy, if you will. And I'm at a club 21 years ago, and someone invited me to a church and I went hungover. I sat in the back row. I smelled like smoke from the night before and heard the gospel in a new way and understood grace in a new way. And. And, long story short, ended up realizing that. That Jesus on the cross, that that was a payment for my sins. And I just realized, like, man, I'm going to live forever, and if I'm going to live forever, then I've got to live for this guy. And so that just reframed everything in my life. As I started learning the Bible and then living with a biblical worldview, just everything changed. And not to mention the Holy Spirit came in and just began to do a makeover.

I've heard it articulated by some people who came to faith later in life that they just. There was this moment where they realized this is either the most important thing in the world, Jesus of Nazareth, or absolutely the dumbest. Waste the time of all time. It sounds like that's what you were feeling sitting in the back of that.

Church, man, it makes me emotional. It wasn't that moment, like, I know that moment, bro, like what you just described. And I was sitting on a friend's couch, ironically, here in Waco. This was a long time ago, but we were visiting here and I was visiting a friend here, and I was sitting on his couch, and we were talking through just the implications of the Gospel. And it was like the scales fell from my eyes and I began to look around and it was like I was in the matrix would be the best way to describe it, where everything's kind of ones and zeros. I was like, man, none of this matters outside of being redeemed for kingdom purposes. And I just like, if there is a life after this life and that life lasts forever, then my work has to be redeemed. My words have to be redeemed, my relationships have to be redeemed. Like, everything that I do, I need to see through the lens of eternity. And, yeah, it was just this really profound, shifting moment. I always struggle to explain it theologically. I mean, truly. I've talked with people about second baptism and salvation justification. I'm like, man, was that the moment I was saved? I don't know what's happening right there, but I can just tell you something. Spiritual happen happened right there in that moment.

So fast forward a few years later, you were sitting in a high rise, I'm assuming, at, AT and T, you heard this very clear call from the Lord about what was next for you or that there was something next for you vocationally.

Can you share that story with our listeners?

Yeah, I will. And. And I'll just. I'll say a disclaimer on the front end is. I've learned from sharing this story that it. It's not typically. It's not normal. And I'm not saying that to try to be unique in any way. I'm saying that to. I don't want to discourage anyone who hears this. And it's like, hey, when's that going to. I'll say more about that. But, yeah, I'm sitting at ATT. I'm on gotquestions.org I'm kind of like studying some basic apologetics.

Gotquestions.org I love it.

Yeah, just like reading these articles, you know, I've got questions like 101, you know, what about dinosaurs and how old is the earth? And so I'm just reading these papers. I met with a person that morning for breakfast around discipleship. I met, had another meeting at lunch that centered around discipleship and meanwhile, my customers at AT&T were on cruise control. Like, they were like, everything was going well there, but I just wasn't spending any time on it. And I went home and I was just exhausted. And Monica was like, hey, did you have a hard day today? And I said, you know, I didn't do anything for AT&T today. And really, I went back the next day, and it was like a wash, rinse, repeat. And I'm sitting at my desk, and again, gotquestions.org is up, and I'm meeting with different discipleship meetings. And I hear the Lord say, you're going to come work for me now. And I mean, it was like this soul startling, like, look over my shoulder, like, hey, if you were there, I don't know if you would have heard it. I'm not a big God said guy. But I just tell you, there was this thing, like, it was like, all right, you're going to come work for me. And so I leave at 1:30 in the afternoon. I go home, I call a friend who was also transitioning into ministry. And I said, hey, I feel like I've been called into ministry. Like, what do I do? And he says, man, you've been growing. I'm thinking, I'm going to get an attorney. I'm going to start a nonprofit. I'm going to raise money. I'm going to give it away. I never considered working for the church. That never even crossed my mind, honestly. And he said, well, why don't you pray about it? And so I pray for five days. And not that five days wasn't a magic number. It just was five days. I said, lord, put me where you want me. Help me find contentment there. Put me where you want me. Help me find contentment there. Put me where you want me. Help me find contentment there. And on the fifth day, the church that I had been a part of, the one I went in, hung over years ago, smelling like smoke, understanding the gospel. They called. A person on staff called and just said, hey, I have a job I want you to consider. And I thought, man, I'll serve anywhere. Tell me where to volunteer. And he goes, no, no, like an interview. Like a J, O, B. Yeah, like. And I was like, interview where? And he was like, watermark, which was the church. And I was like, wait, what? I was like, this is JP he goes, I know. I was like, man, I was praying over this job description, and the Lord kept bringing you to mind. And that's how it happened. That's the short Version, because the longer version is. Then I went. I took another job first. I, like, ran from it. It was like delayed obedience and whatnot. And then the longer explanation that I would put there is, then I'm on staff at a church and I'm. In the years to come, I would lead these mission trips. I would train up 30, 50 young adults. We'd get on a plane, we'd raise thousands of dollars each to go and support, and we'd go to these countries and we wouldn't speak the language, and we wouldn't, you know, we'd have to learn the culture and we'd have to share the gospel through an interpreter. And I kept coming back and I'd have the same conversation every time on the plane. It's like, man, I wish I knew the language. I wish I understood the culture. And we were coming back to this place where we knew the language and we understood the culture and people were going to pay us to be our jobs. They were going to pay us to be there. And I would always think about the eighth floor of AT&T. Because on the eighth floor of AT&T, it's this cube farm of all these people that come there every day. And they have to. They're obligated by their employment to be there every day. And there I was, a missionary right in the center of it. And I know the language and I understand the culture. And I'm going to lunch with these people and they're lost. Like, the vast majority of them are lost as can be. And I'm like, gosh, I would always look back on that moment with such intense regret. Now, the Lord was kind to allow me to see some people, some co workers to come to the faith. Just a great story of how he's done that or one specific. But for the most of it, I wasn't faithful with my faith in that position because I was thinking about P and L and how to increase my sales and make sure I make quota, which is important because whatever we do, we work at it with all our heart as though we're working for the Lord. That is a. An aspect or a road or an avenue of evangelism. But what's crazy is, I mean, I've been to the jungles of the Amazon. I've been to the mountains of Haiti, rural parts of Haiti, different parts of Africa. I've been on, on several different trips. And there's even closed countries. You think like Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan, that places that you can't just walk in with the Bible and Share the gospel on the street corner. But I'll tell you, I could get to Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan easier than I could the eighth floor of AT&T today. Like, because. Because you go through two security checkpoints, you got a security badge with your picture on it. You can't just walk up there. And I was there every day. I had credentials to be there every single day. And today as a pastor, I cannot go up there because I'm not an employee. And it would be easier for me to get into Afghanistan today than the eighth floor of AT&T. And so I always just think about, man, what is the opportunities in of us where God has called us to be? Like, how do we be faithful in that?

Amen. I love how nuanced your thinking on this topic is. It's so much more nuanced and I believe biblical than a lot of pastors. All right. There's a lot I want to unpack from the story because I think there's a lot that the mere Christians listening can learn from it.

First is something that you and I.

Talked about before on the Becoming Something podcast, right? Anytime you hear a dramatic calling story like yours, it can lead others, I think, to feel like they just have to wait around for a similar experience before they can call whatever work they're doing a calling. Right. They treat vocational calling the way Hollywood treats marriage as if there is a singular Mr. Or Mrs. Right for us in our career. Help us debunk this myth, man.

We could debunk both of those. Passionate about both of those. And so, yeah, Os Guinness wrote a book in the Calling and Talking. Had a conversation with him recently. And a lot of times, our calling is where we find us, where we find ourselves when we walk faithfully. That Road to Damascus story, I think that is the exception, and it's not the good exception. I'll just say, in my case, it's not the good exception. Meaning I think God was so merciful with me that he did what he needed to do, understanding how deep and stubborn my rebellion was. Like, he got my attention in a unique way. And who knows? I'm telling the story 20 years ago and I leave so much room for grace. I'm like, I don't know my maturity at the time. Like, who knows what happened and what I was feeling. I don't want to discredit God in any way because I know he can do all of those things. But I will tell you, in meeting with tens of thousands, and I mean, I mean that literally tens of thousands of people that Most often is calling is the place where we find us when. Find ourselves, when we walk in faithfulness. And so it's just like when we wake up and we say, all right, God, how do I be faithful today? And you say, what have you called me to? We need to start with, well, what is around us? Like, who. Who have you called me to share with? It's like, the irony is like, the Holy Spirit's never jumping up and down, waving his arm, saying, don't share with that person. And so we should start with who's around me, who's on the other side of the wall, who's on the other side of the cube? Who's on the other. Who's in the carpool line? Like, who's the barista next to me? Who is around me? Who are the teachers in the teacher's lounge? What's the faculty around me? That's the people that God has called you to. I see this in Matthew 5, right? That a builder, a strategic builder, is very intentional about where he puts lights. They don't put them under a bowl. And still in the 21st century, we built two homes. I can tell you people are still very intentional about where they put lights. God called us to be lights, to push back darkness. He's the master builder. He's put us in places intentionally. And we don't need to resent those places. We need to repurpose those places, to open our eyes, to say, okay, God, what is the mission that you have for me here? I have this conversation with young adults a lot when they're talking about changing jobs. They'll be like, you know, right Now I'm making 50,000, and I'm working all these hours, and it's hard, and my boss hates me. But I have another job. It pays 100,000. It's less hours. The boss loves me. I get to work with friends, like, no brainer, right? And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Not necessarily. Not necessarily because you are where you're at on purpose. Have you been faithful there? Because do people there know you're a follower of Jesus? And if you leave, what implications does it have for the gospel? And I'm not trying to put shame on your shoulders at all, but I'm just saying, have you been faithful? There's. And would you say this new job, if we think about it all in terms of kingdom purposes, is this new job a calling? Meaning, do you sense, well, I've called there to be on mission because it's not just about the bottom line. It's not just about how many hours you work. It's not just about the ease and being with friends and whatnot. We're all on mission. We're all in ministry. And we have to see our current vocation as such.

Yeah, I mean, I think About Paul in First Corinthians 7, verse 20, each of you should remain as you were when God called you.

Right.

So wherever you are, when God called you, that's where God has called you.

Right.

That's where God has put you right now to be on mission for him.

And I appreciate you saying that. Right.

Because I'm always hesitant to share the stories of people like you who are called out of corporate America and into vocational ministry because that can so easily be interpreted as that's what everyone else should do. And I would argue in our increasingly post Christian context, that's what very few of us should do. We need more people rushing onto the eighth floor of AT&T. I had Sky Jathani on the podcast last year and we were talking about the statistics. I know you know all too well, given that you work so much with 20 something Christians, namely the number of young adults leaving the church. And sky was arguing that the church's focus on the intrinsic goodness of, of work outside the four walls of the.

Church is part of the solution to this problem. Right.

It's the driver's license to marriage license gap, where churches know they're going to lose you from, let's call it 16 until the time you get married.

And what's in between is vocation. Right. And so if we as pastors, church.

Leaders, were more intentional about that man, maybe the church would become a little bit more relevant to those 20 somethings. I mean, what do you make of Sky's argument?

This is the message that I think where the church misses it. One leadership in general. And I say the church, not every church. I mean generally the local, the expression through the American church, generally speaking, I think we can beg people, hey, will you please show up? Please hold a door. I'm not going to ask much of you. And we don't understand that in our congregations there's really gifted people and their gifts are in part being exploited by corporate America for the bottom line. And so this message is really nuanced. You used that word really earlier. And I think it's important and I want to clarify because there's lots of avenues to misunderstand what I'm saying. We should work hard in our occupation. We should be very intentional about doing ministry there. Those two Things have to be coupled together. And the church should not resent your occupation. We should set you up for success there in any and every way we can, giving you a redemptive lens for it. I heard a story of a person once, I love this story. He was the best employee on this team, on this floor of this company. Everyone knew as such, like, he was the one that was held up and said, hey, be like this person. And so he was double promoted every year. And so he's just fast track up into corporate America because of his work effort. And every year they threatened to fire him because he was so open with his faith. And so you had these people that were antagonistic toward his faith, but they couldn't let him go because he was such a diligent worker. You know, he was so intentional in what he did. And I think that tension there is a beautiful picture of what it means to, to work with intentionality where we're at. And I know it's. Everyone has to nuance that to their current. You know, am I in a position of management? You know, what am I doing? What is it? Am I, am I delivering newspapers? Whatever it is, your work matters. You can think like, if you weren't delivering the newspaper, if you weren't cleaning the toilet, if you weren't serving coffee, if you weren't writing $10 billion contracts, who would, like, God has you doing whatever it is that you're doing intentionally because he's placed a light there and you say, okay, what is my mission and purpose?

Yeah, it's perfectly said.

You have like a narrative that always gets in my head, but it gets fuzzy. And so you kind of talk about the fall in Eden, right? So the garden. And then you talk about Jesus as the gardener. And so, you know, Easter is around. We've. We have minds around that holiday. Can you remind me of that? I'd love to make that fresh in my mind just in this opportunity.

Yeah, so. And I got to give credit where credit is due. NT Wright's the one that tipped me off in this direction to kind of chase this rabbit trail. So every Easter, we read John chapter 20 in our churches, right? And we are told that upon seeing the resurrected Christ, Mary Magdalene didn't recognize Jesus. She mistook him for the gardener, right? Now, Jesus had just beaten death, right? Like, clearly he could have chosen to be mistaken for anything, right? A carpenter, a fisherman, a great king. But instead he chose to be mistaken as a gardener. Why? Some people have said, well, listen, it was just because he was raised in the Garden of the tomb. Right. And maybe that's true. I think the God who created, you know, tens of thousands of species of fish is a little bit more creative than that. Right. Scholars suggest. Some scholars suggest that by including that detail of Mary mistaking Jesus the gardener, John is deliberately contrasting Jesus, the last Adam, garden of the tomb, with the first Adam in Genesis 1:3. Right. So in the beginning, we know God inaugurated the world, but he didn't finish it. This is the message of my children's book, that you love the Creator and you. Right. The six days, just the beginning. He put Adam in the Garden of Eden to work and to take care of it.

Right.

First Adam broke that rule, ensuring our need for a redeemer.

Fast forward thousands of years, and here at the resurrection, God is inaugurating a whole new world.

The second and the final creation.

And the last Adam, Jesus Christ, I.

Think, is choosing to appear as a gardener as a symbolic way of saying that he is planting heaven on earth once again.

And just like that, first Adam had his bride, Eve, to help him cultivate.

And work the first creation.

Jesus, the last Adam, has invited his.

Bride, the church, to help him cultivate the final run. Right.

Like, as we're celebrating Easter this week, and when we're recording this, it should.

Strike us right between the eyes.

It was perfectly within God's power to.

Perfectly and fully reveal the eternal kingdom of heaven on Easter Sunday. But he didn't. He inaugurated the kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven and.

Drafted us into service to help him.

Grow and to cultivate that. That's the symbol there.

Right.

And that, I think, is one of the most beautiful pictures for our work. So I pointed Back to you, J.P.

What does that look like?

How do we unearth glimpses of the Kingdom of God as we work in places like AT&T? I mean, you went back to AT&T a few years, for a few years after your conversion.

What did that look like? How did you change how you worked.

As a means of revealing the kingdom of God?

Yeah, man. I'm like, hit with this story, and it's a really weird story, and so I'm gonna tell it, and you can edit it out if you want, but it's a weird story, man.

I love when I get warned that I might have to edit something out.

I'm gonna lose some credibility on this. I was going through this worldview class, and the term worldview, it didn't really mean anything to me. And I was hearing it every day, but it was like, wa Wa. Wa. I was like, I don't really know what that means. And. And we were talking about, you know, God has us here as ambassadors to redeem the spaces and the times and the places that we are in, right? And I'm learning this. I don't know, you know, it's like. It's like I just said that to people. People just heard that through your AirPods or your headphones or whatever. Some of you know what it means, and some of you don't. And so this, you're going to get to learn from my experience. And so I'm in this class and I'm learning this slowly, and it's not all making sense yet. And I'm in. I go in a public bathroom, I'm going to use the restroom. I open the stall door and I just like, this is the weird part. Someone has left a mess in there. And I'm just like, oh, man, I'm repulsed. I turn around, I'm walking out. I'm like, that's. Oh, my goodness. And I just sense the Lord's like, wait a minute, but you're here, and this is my creation. And what are you going to do about it? Are you just going to leave? He's going to get back in your car, he's going to go somewhere else. And I was, like, convicted in this strange way, and I'm like, surely God, you don't want me to clean up someone else's mess. Surely that's not what you want. And that's a really weird picture, right? And I hope it's not what he wants for you, listener. But here's what I do know. If you can take that as a metaphor, if you can take that as an illustration to think about, all right, who do I serve and who am I responsible for? And how do I remove drudgery? How do I bring about joy and synergy? How do I help us become more effective? How do I keep people motivated and optimistic? And how do I take the kingdom of God that. The kingdom that I belong to, the kingdom that I'm. I'm going to end up in, you know, be in most realist presence? And how do I bring it here on earth? In the way that I work, in the way that I talk, in the way that I experience, in the way that I create experiences, in the way that I clean up, in the way that I redeem, in the way that I make things beautiful. Right? How do I make every moment that I exist in an act of worship and really have this. This sense and this is just great leadership. Now that nothing is beneath me and everyone around me are people that I serve in the name of Jesus. So that in Titus 2:10, this is an amazing verse, he says, work so that you make the teachings of Christ our Lord and Savior, attractive. And it's like, oh man. So that's just that how do I work in such a way that I make the teachings of Christ attractive? That's my story.

It's a perfect metaphor. It's a perfect metaphor. It's a posture going back to worldview. It's a posture of I didn't create all the mess in this world individually, but as a representative of the human race. Yes, I have. And my call as a believer is to enter into the mess and to renew and to redeem and to beautify. And our vocations are one of the vehicles we can do that. And when we do that, they will see our good works and give glory to our Father in heaven. You mentioned the story of AT&T somebody seeing your good works, I'm assuming coming to faith in Christ. Go back to it.

No, man. What it was, was so like my entire time at, AT and T, I'm trying to get this job into global accounts. And so this, that's the job from my perspective at the time. If I can just get there, I can work that job for the rest of my life. Like this is, this is the goal. And so I'm interviewing and that interview turns into a two and a half year long process in the corporate world. There was two hiring freezes that I survived through and, and I'm just everything, I've got all my eg, this basket, I'm trying to get this job. I'm doing every, I'm working the, the political angles of corporate America trying to get this job right. And I get it. Like, long story short, I get the job to. After two and a half years of interviews, I get the job. I'm week two on the job. I've been assigned this mentor, I think I'm 24. I went to a two year school, I went to college for two years. So I kind of got in the work world early. So I was like 24, 25. I'm probably 25. I'm assigned this mentor and he's 46 years old and he's kind of everything, he represents everything I want to be. And we are driving from Dallas to Fort Worth together and he's talking about just some challenges at home. We're just two guys chatting it up on a 40 minute road trip. And he's talking about just difficulty and hard conversation he had with his wife. I said, hey, how's your relationship with Jesus? And now this is just who I am at this time. I found something new and I love it. And I'm just telling everyone about it. And I ask him that, and he gets so uncomfortable. Starts to kind of shift in his chair and his face turns red and he's real quiet. He doesn't say anything, grips the steering wheel with both hands. And then after this, like, long pause of silence, he just says, that is really inappropriate. We do not have those kinds of conversations in the work environment. And if you ever ask me something like that again, there will be consequences and repercussions. I will need to talk to hr. And I'm like, dude, it's two weeks on a job that I've interviewed for two and a half years for. I'm like, oh my goodness, what just happened? So we drive the rest of the way to Fort Worth in silence. I'm thinking the whole time, I've got to drive back with this guy. And so on the way back, I was like, you know, hey, about that. He goes, yeah, listen, I'm Jewish. You talked about Jesus. It just makes me uncomfortable. I'm not very religious. I was raised Jewish. I'm not very religious. And it was fine. Like, we got to a place where we could talk and be cordial and it was fine. And now the months ahead, we're still working together in close proximity. He's still kind of assigned as my mentor, and so I'm just praying. And they were like these really faithless prayers, like, God, save him. Yeah, right. Like you're going to do that. And then there's this business lunch that my church puts on, and I just invite the team. Now, I've done no follow up on this because of fear. Honestly, I've failed the test. Like, I'm not the example. I've failed the test miserably. But I invite my team to this deal, this business luncheon at my church. I just forwarded the email to my team. Well, he comes over and he's real excited about it. And he goes, hey, are you going to this? I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He goes, well, I'd like to go. I was like, awesome. And he's like, you know, as it gets closer, he's like, hey, what do I wear? I was like, oh, man, whatever you're wearing. And I'm like, this is so weird. What is God doing? And then the day comes, he Goes, hey, you want to ride out together? I was like, sure. We're riding out there, and we pull into the parking lot, and he sees Watermark. He's like, watermark? Watermark. He's like, oh, isn't this. Don't you go to church around here? And I go, yeah, yeah. And he goes, is it. It's this parking lot. And I go, yeah, yeah, this is at my church. And he goes, oh. And we go. And I was like, I don't know what that means. And we go up there, and two guys talk, and they're businessmen, and one specific is sharing his story. And he talks about two books, More Than a Carpenter, A Man in the Mirror. And I'm kind of watching my coworker, like, hey, is he uncomfortable? Like, how's he doing?

Am I getting fired?

Yeah, exactly. The deal ends, and we get back in the car, and he goes, wow, that was really interesting. He goes, I didn't know this was the faith event. And I was like, hey, man, I just forwarded you the email. He goes, I know, I know. I didn't read it. I just saw Business Lunch and got excited for a networking opportunity, and I didn't read the email. And I go, that's on you, bro. Don't try to. We're not going to hr. That's on you. And he goes, but that guy was making some sense. I'd like to read those books. And so, you know, I just go on Amazon, have them shipped to his house, and he starts reading More than a Carpenter. And long story short, gives his life to Jesus, like, trust in Christ. His whole family becomes Christians. They all get baptized. It was like New Testament stuff. They go, and his daughter gets baptized, and he's a believer. And it just, like, the Holy Spirit came in his life, and he began to do a lot of what we're talking about right now. I mean, this was a person who was extremely materialistic and focused on worldly things, began to redeem those worldly things for a different purpose. There's a really, you know, the devil's so crafty. There's a fine line. I think what we often do as Christians is we, like, throw out, okay, oh, well, if I really live for eternity, I can't have nice things. Not at all. You just have nice things in context of eternity. Or if I'm living for eternity, then I can't work hard. It's like, no, you do work hard. You work hard. With the right perspective of that, you can set it down, you can rest, you can trust God. And so there's just these really. It's like this path, and on both sides of this path, there's overcorrection and there's extremes that are not helpful and are distractions to the path that we're. We're actually to walk.

What's one thing you think you did right? You were commanded not to mention it. Again with your words.

Yeah.

What did you do right in your actions that you think got this guy interested, man? Maybe Christian is credible.

Immediate answers, like, just pray. Like, I just remember I put him on that. We had a top 10 list at the time. Was like 10 lost people in our lives that we're praying for.

10 most wanted.

Yeah, the 10 most wanted. It's like the picture of the new Christian. And I've got that bookmark in my Bible, and I would just pray these prayers. But if I'm honest, it wasn't like, at that moment in my journey, I wasn't even. I'm like, God, you're not going to answer that, but I'm going to pray this out of obedience. And I mean, he did in such a profound and distinct way. And really just to spur me on and encourage me, I felt encouraged in that. You know, there's something I forgot to say earlier. I want to say. I don't know. I think it fits. But the reason a part of my calling into ministry was somebody had told me, only do ministry if you can't do anything else. And I thought that meant, only do ministry if you're not gifted at doing anything else. I didn't know what that meant. I mean, somebody had said it. It was one of those things that wasn't helpful to me because I didn't understand it. And then when I was at AT and T, that story had happened, and, you know, I'm growing and all of this is. And I just became really obsessed with the realization that, man, I need to learn my Bible. I need to do this. I need to kind of go all in over here. That statement made sense to me, and I think that has a lot to do with calling. I've heard someone say, like, when someone says, hey, I want to go be a pastor, they actually try to talk them out of it, because if they were really called to be a pastor, they couldn't. And the truth is, the vast majority of the people that are listening right now are not called to be pastors employed by the church. I mean, that's the reality. And I don't think you need to think about that. As much as I would love for you to think about that as so much of a higher calling. What I see in my Bible is that we're all part of the royal priesthood, a holy nation of people belong to God. And so what does it look like for me to redeem my calling, my current position to a higher calling so that I'm there? I am a pastor. I'm doing ministry. I'm just doing it it through the avenue that God has gifted me to do it in. And so that was a thought I had from earlier.

Oh, man, that's perfect. I'm glad you followed up on that and shared it. Hey, I told you this before we started recording or alluded to it. I guess your new book, why Do I Do what I Don't Want To Do. I'm loving this. It's actually your first book that I've read, and I'm crushing it. I'm thoroughly enjoying it. The title obviously comes from Paul's words in Romans 7 for those unfamiliar with that passage. What's Paul talking about here?

Here? It's probably the most relatable section of the scripture, is like, man, the good I want to do, I don't do. And the bad things I don't want to do, this I keep on doing. And so he just kind of presents this picture of the clumsy life as a mere Christian, where it's like, gosh, I want to do right, but I still have this flesh or this sin nature that's kind of pulling me the wrong direction. And the things I don't want to do, this I keep. These are the doors I keep opening. Like what? And he goes, who will save me from this body of death? And then this beautiful crescendo. Romans 8:1. For there is now no condemnation for those of us who are in Christ Jesus. And then the whole next chapter is just kind of life in the Spirit. What does it look like for me to surrender to the spirit of God, who's there as my helper in these times? And that's so much of what we're talking about. Jordan is just in the workspace. How do I understand that I'm not alone, that I have God as my helper here to do my work on purpose, on mission.

I loved the way you organized the book around these 10 common vices and these 10 biblical virtues that contrast the vice. So pride and humility, greed and generosity, apathy and diligence. As I'm reading it, man, if I'm honest, like, the toughest one for me is pride. And just continually slaying my Selfishness, my pride and replacing it with humility. So I want to, I want to go deeper on that for a few minutes because I think that's a common struggle for a lot of ambitious Christian professionals. What are some of the symptoms that this has become a problem for us? Like how does pride show up?

It's such a foundational sin. And so CS Lewis says it's the sin that made the devil the devil. And a backup. Before I answer that and just say that the whole premise of the book is because it's relevant. The premise of the book is a lot of times as a Christian, we get stuck on defense where we're just trying not to be prideful. And what I want to do with every vice or habit or sin or struggle is I'm going to say I want to bring the reader's attention that there's a counterpart virtue that you can pursue, like you can actually go on offense. So rather than try not to be prideful, I can actually effort to be humble. And if I put my crosshairs, my sights on humility, the pride is going to take care of itself. But now to answer your question specifically, what pride can look like is any number of sins. For example, it can look like living for the approval of others or people pleasing. I care so much about what other people think of me. That in and of itself is a sin outlined in Galatians 1:10. But it also at the root of that sin. The foundation of that sin, I believe, is pride, materialism or greed. I buy things to make myself feel better. I cope by going on Amazon two day prime, two day. I want to get a newer car or a bigger house. And you say, well that's the sin of materialism. But it can also be the foundation of pride in that we're trying to build a bigger kingdom for ourselves. We are wanting to be the main character of the story, not understanding that we have this tiny cameo in the story and that the main character is Jesus and that everything we do points to him. And so pride can bring turn a lot of when it's our motive, when our self is the motive, self exaltation is the motive, then so many of them of sins that look like other things are actually rooted in pride.

I thought this was interesting. This was not a connection I'd ever made before. You argued that one of the symptoms of pride is that we're over committed.

Yeah.

What's the connection there? How do you see that being rooted in pride?

It's two ways, like over committed on the calendar or over indexed in that we view ourselves as the main cog, primary cog in the wheel, that if we're removed, everything's going to fall apart. See this a lot, honestly, with senior pastors who feel like they can't take off or they can't retire. And because they're kind of God's anointed, if you will, if they leave for two weeks, the whole church is going to fall apart. So how do we work in a way that makes ourselves replaceable and then how do we run at a pace that's sustainable? And it just is this, it's this overarching, hey, it's not about you and it's not up to you. And you don't have to carry the weight of the world on your shoulders. Like just be faithful in the situations that you're in and then trust God. I really think that is the spirit of the Sabbath. A lot of people, Sabbath is such a, a buzzword right now. A lot of people are thinking about it, talking about it, asking what it should look like. And I think the spirit of the Sabbath is the realization that it's not all up to us, that we don't have to get it all done, that we should be faithful and then we rest.

Well, that's good. So the opposite of pride's humility. You wrote in the book, quote, I believe that the secret to happiness is actually practicing humility, end quote. In other words, stop going on defense against pride, go on offense towards humility. How do we practice humility, especially in the workplace? Jp, what could that look like? Aside from cleaning messes in bathroom stalls?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Let me give some weight to that. The secret to happiness. Because that's a big headline. The secret to happiness. Wow. Like, I want to be happy. I mean, a lot of us are not on a truth journey. A lot of us just are on a happiness journey. We want to be happy, especially in the world. Just like, hey, how do we experience happiness? Well, a lot of unhappiness comes from an overinflated view of self, in fact. And I'm not, I'm gonna be careful here. Not a blanket statement. Certainly there are exceptions, but narcissism is a foundation to a lot of mental illness. Not all, obviously. It's not what I'm saying, but for a lot of times, when people have an overinflated view of themselves and they feed that over inflated view of themselves, they find themselves where they're ill, even they can be mentally impaired. And it's hard to know what came first. The chicken or the egg. I can have those conversations with psychologists and therapists and psychiat psychiatrist, but I'm just saying. And they would agree with me. There's a correlation. Often that's important to know. And a lot of our disappointments come from when we feel like we've been taken advantage of, we've gotten ripped off, we've been slighted. And so this is all at a foundation level. There's pride there. And so if I view myself as a servant to the king, and so Jesus in the workplace, the big buzzword is leadership. It's like, what does it mean? Like, leadership. How do we practice leadership? How do we be a better leader? Even if I'm an employee, how do I be a better leader? Lead out, lead up, lead down. I mean, there's so many books on leadership, all of this thing, what Jesus defines leadership as service. And he says, Mark 10 for the son of man did not come to be served, but to serve and to give his life as ransom for many. In fact, the number one question that his disciples asked repeatedly nine times in the Gospel, they say, which of us is the greatest? Who can sit it your right and left in glory? Which of us is the best? Who's the greatest? And he's like, you don't understand what it means to be great. To be great actually means to serve others. And so this is the direct answer to your question. Jordan is like, if we want to practice humility in the workplace, it looks like serving others, like, who is around us and how can we serve them? I was like, here's just a silly example. I'm not trying to be the hero of the story, but it's just something that recently happened. My son and I went to get an acai bowl for breakfast. So we go to the juice place. And before I stopped by my favorite coffee shop and got a cup of coffee, I took it in there and as the person was getting my bowl, and this was a person that I think a lot of people had overlooked. She's having a rough day. And she has a very alternative style just to paint the picture of this giant black nose ring. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but just to say, hey, there's a difference. And I could just tell she was a little bit that felt beat up that day and just was very different than us. And she goes. But there was this moment where she kind of perked up and goes, oh, I smell your coffee. And she goes, I'm going to get one. I'm going to Get a cup as soon as I get off. That's kind of what she said. It was a rough day, and the day had just started. Rough morning. She's like, as soon as I get off, I'm getting a cup of coffee. I was like, man, what's your order? I'm just trying to make small talk. And she said, oh, you know, oat milk latte. And I was like, great. Filed that away. Get my bowl. We get in the car, drive back to the coffee shop, get the oatmeal latte, go back there. And I just hand it to Weston. And I said, hey, will you run this in there to her? The person in the Doc Martens and the black jacket, you know, and he does right small act. Really, really tiny, man. And everyone hears that story and thinks, man, I bet that made her day. No, it made our day, right? It made Weston and I day. Like, it was just a great start to our day to start with a really tiny, minuscule act of service. That's what we're doing as believers is we're occupying time and space and we're thinking, man, how can we serve people? How can we care for people in the name of Jesus?

It's just a posture of seeing others as greater than ourselves. That's it.

That's it.

Very simple, very hard to practice. Hey, three questions. We wrap up every pod with JP Number one, which books do you find yourself recommending or gifting most frequently to others?

Yeah, you mentioned your children's book, which I want to talk about. It's not. At some point I want to.

I'd love.

I'm going to call you some someday and just what it's like to write a children's book.

Oh, anytime.

But in that vein, it's an interesting answer that. That I feel like requires more of explanation, but I love anything by Bob Goff. It's because he's a such a great storyteller and I read for preparation. So much so I'm reading in, like, heady commentaries and I don't read well. Not a strong reader. I don't enjoy it. And so I like anything he writes. I'll listen to it at night. I feel like it's helpful to rest my mind. So that's the most honest answer I can give you.

That's good, man. I loved that I read in your book. You read a book by Tim Keller. You said roughly every year that I read almost every year. Freedom of self, forgetfulness.

That's right.

Pitch the book real quick to our listeners. You can read this book in like 30 minutes, you guys, it's phenomenal.

That's what I was going to say. The pitch is. It's a pamphlet. I try to only read books. I read your children children's book and Tim Keller's. You know, I try to keep it under 30 pages. There you go. No, it's. It is. It really is a really short book, a small book. And it's. It's everything we just talked about. You just. Just hit back on that, on your, you know, your listening device two times on that 15 second skip and where we're talking about serving others and becoming like not thinking about yourself so much. That. That is the whole book. The art of self love. I always say the art of self forgetfulness, but that's not it.

Yeah. The freedom of self forgetfulness.

The freedom of self forgetfulness.

It was the first Keller book I read.

Yeah.

Because I like you prefer short books. So I was like, oh, Great, this is 30 pages. And it's what caused me to go read every word that Tim Keller has ever written. It is an extraordinary book. I read a lot. So I love that you pointed that in your book. All right, second question. Who do you want to hear in this pod talking about how the gospel shapes the work that meir crowd Christians do in the world?

Irony of ironies, man. It's got to be Tim Keller. Every good endeavor.

So I know we've had Tim on a couple times, and actually this week I'm interviewing Tim's answer to this question, Dr. Francis Collins of the NIH, which would be fun. All right, JP, what's one thing from our conversation you want to reiterate to our listeners before we sign off?

If there is a God, I've bet the farm I put my whole life in the answer to the affirmative answer to that. That there is. But for you, if there is a God and he created you, he thought you up millennia ago, I mean, before creation, he created you. Acts 17. In time and space. He determined your boundaries. Then it is a reasonable, logical conclusion that he has a purpose for you to do. For you are God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works which he's prepared in advance for you to do. It's l. Literally to walk in the good works that he's prepared in advance for you to walk in. So as you are faithful wherever you're at, you are a representative of another kingdom, a kingdom that you will be in forever. But you get to show others a commercial for that kingdom today. And I think that is purpose in its essence. So that's what I would say.

That's perfect, buddy. I want to commend you for the extraordinary work you do every day for the glory of God and the good of others. For reminding us of the God given goodness and meaning of the work that mere Christians do in the world and not just pastors like yourself. Thank you for helping us replace pride with humility in the workplace. Man, I love you so much. I'm loving this book so much. Guys. JP's new book is why Do I Do what I Don't Want To Do? You can pick it up wherever books are sold.

Hey, tell us about that website that.

You sent me with this like quiz of like what sin's gonna get you. Yeah, I love this.

Whydoido.com so you just go to whydoido.com and we just said we worked with the publisher and some web developers to say, all right, what are some big areas where people are taken out, like where they're vulnerable? And that's kind of the heart of this book is to help you identify those areas of vulnerability. And they're usually different than what you think they would be. And so there's a little quiz there. It takes about three to five minutes and it will give you an answer. Why do I.com?

It was super insightful. It was like really, really well done. Jp, thanks for hanging out with us today.

Hey, thank you. Love you too bud. Thanks for having me on.

I hope you guys enjoyed listening to that episode as much as I enjoyed making it. Hey listen, we want to hear from you. If you think you've got something to say about how the Gospel of Jesus Christ influences your work, I'm asking you to pitch yourself to come out of the podcast@jordanraynor.com contact. Hey guys, thank you so much for tuning in this week. I'll see you next time.

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