Julianna Rubio Slager (Artistic Director of Ballet 5:8)

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Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor.

How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as executive Producers, sculptors, and tutors. That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to Juliana Rubio Slager, a groundbreaking figure in the field of ballet. As one of the few Mexican American choreographers in the world, Juliana and I recently sat down to discuss how God is using ballets about faith to reach non believers, how to not undersell the power of the Holy Spirit at work. And we also did a whole riff on my favorite scene ever.

And this is Us, NBC's famous TV show that powerfully illustrates the gospel and what it means for our work.

I think you guys are going to.

Love this conversation with my friend, Juliana Rubio Slager. Juliana Rubio Slager. Welcome back to the Mere Christians Podcast.

Thanks so much, Jordan. It's such a pleasure to be here.

You and I were just talking before we start recording. I think yours is the first episode.

I ever recorded of the show. Back in 2019. It feels like forever ago. Oh, I know you've had a lot going on. A pandemic to deal with. No big deal. Your husband joining you in ballet 58.

And then I saw in 2023, you were awarded this position of National Visiting.

Fellow at the School of American Ballet. That sounds like a really big deal.

Is it?

What is this thing, Juliana?

Oh, my gosh. Honestly? Yeah, it's such an honor. The School of American Ballet is one of the most prestigious and oldest schools, not just in the U.S. but across the world. And I had the distinct honor to be one of their visiting fellows last year and got to take several all expense paid trips to New York to work with the students and faculty. Honestly, it was such a dream come true and such a great way to continue my development as a teacher, as well as sharing perspectives on diversity in dance.

That's cool.

I love it.

All right. Hey, Juliana. For those who don't know, what is ballet 5 8?

Yeah. So ballet 58 is a ballet company. We're located just outside of Chicago, but we do perform for the most part at the Harris Theater in Chicago. We also tour across the U.S. our mission is to spark discussion of life and faith. And we've got 21 professional dancers, so they're paid to dance, which if you're not a dancer, you maybe don't even know that that's a profession. So this is their day job. And then we also have 10 members of our second company and 10 members of our trainee program, which is kind of like college for dancers.

Yeah, that's fascinating.

How did this get started?

I actually don't remember the founding story of ballet 58. Why did you start this? How did you get it going? Talk us through that.

So ever since I was little, I've loved music. I think my parents really instilled that in me from a young age. As a Latina, when you're growing up, there's a lot of music all the time. Dance is a part of the family, but not ballet. Classical ballet was way outside of my realm of understanding at that point. And I saw a PBS special of the Nutcracker, and I just fell in love with it. And I remember begging my mom to put me in ballet lessons, and I kind of wore her down over time. And, you know, the teacher she found wouldn't even take anybody till they were 8 and I was 5. But I just begged and begged and begged and begged. And so finally, my mom was like, hey, this kid's driving me crazy. Like, will you please, please, please take her? Teach her? Yes. And, you know, I have this memory of just, like, walking into the room and just like, seeing all these, like, pink legs, you know, all these pink tights everywhere, and just being this little kid. And I think at first, I just fell in love with music and movement, and then from there, really started to understand technique. So. So then fast forward many years later, I was a professional dancer, you know, and as a Christian, I think I've always had this, like, slight tension between art and faith and kind of going, okay, how do these fit together? Do these fit together? Do I get to bring them together, or should I compartmentalize? And I think that's a really difficult kind of internal struggle to go through because, you know this. But a lot of artists throughout history are Christians, right? Especially in the Renaissance period and even, like, the Romantic area era of music. So many of the great composers and visual artists, they're all coming from a base of faith. But in the present day, that has really switched. There's been a pretty seismic shift in art in the past couple hundred years to where a lot of art is more based in postmodernism, secularism. So as a Christian kind of in the arts, there's a lot of pressure to leave your faith at the door and to just be an intellectual and an artist in that space. So I think I felt that pressure very acutely when I was dancing professionally, you know, and for me, it wasn't as simple as, like, oh, I could do some roles and not other roles, but just the whole theory behind dance was really empty to me.

Yeah.

Say more about that. What do you mean by that?

Yeah. So I think it came to a point where, you know, I love technique, I love the form, but it felt like that was kind of all we were doing. We were just exploring this form of dance, and it was very much kind of idealized and idolized, but at the same time, I saw the amount of destruction that it was creating in myself, honestly, more than anyone else, of just wanting to have this perfect aesthetic. The perfectionism, I think, is one of the most damaging parts of ballet. And then just always wanting to please the person at the front of the room. You're very young, usually when you. You achieve these high levels in dance, so emotionally you're not very mature, and so that wreaks havoc. You've got a lot of adults that were raised that way where they're pushed to great heights very young, and because of that, they don't always have a lot of emotional processing skills skills. So I think being in that environment just was really, really difficult. And it's kind of like a pressure cooker. And I knew that my faith was not doing well in that situation. And, you know, I had my fair share of difficulties with eating disorders and depression and a number of other things. So after that, I kind of. And, you know, this is funny. This makes me feel old, but there wasn't Google back then, so I think it was like bing or something like that, you know, And I type in, like, Christians who do ballet. Like, is this a thing? And up pops Ballet Magnificat, which is in Jackson, Mississippi, that was founded by Kathy Thibodeau, who won the silver medal at the International Ballet Competition sometime in the 80s. And so I call Kathy. You know, I set up an audition, I go down, and I ended up working with them for several years. And then after that, I moved to Chicago because I got engaged to Jeremy. So he kind of upended my plans of kind of following this path that I thought I was on. And then in moving to Chicago, I had a friend who I had danced with previously named Amy, and she and I kind of reconnected. We were talking about dance and just what we would hope for the dance ecosystem. And we kept coming back to this thought of, how can we bring the character of Christ into the dance space in a way that is not cliquey, in a way that is not exclusive, but is really accessible and allows people to experience Jesus regardless of their own faith background?

I love that.

All right, what does it mean to.

Bring the character of Christ into ballet? You guys have done takes on the Nutcracker. That's probably the ballet Most familiar to our listeners. So how does one produce the Nutcracker with and without the character of Christ? What does that look like?

Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Well, it's been such a journey, and I think in the beginning, my first thought was like, okay, creating performances that have some kind of spiritual element or spark discussion of life and faith. So things like kind of. I did rewrite the story of the Nutcracker to be this story where an uncle actually comes back from war during World War II and had this near death experience and shares Christ with his family and they don't believe him. But then his niece Emma falls asleep and has this dream about going all over the world, and these different missionaries from different countries are speaking life over her and kind of sharing the gospel with her. Kind of a reverse missionary story, if you will, where the rest of the world, you know, evangelizes the Westerner. So it's just. Was a really cool take on the Nutcracker. But I think things like that, as great as they are, they're a little bit elementary in the sense that I think it's deeper than that. Right. It's like when we're bringing Christ into things, it's not just putting that Christian label on something that we already know how to do. It's seriously sitting and sorting out kind of every single part of yourself and your process and saying, is this Jesus? Does this align with who Jesus wants me to be or not?

So, Juliana, on the Ballet 58 website.

It says, quote, the mission of Ballet 58 is to spark discussion of life and faith. End quote.

How does that happen? How does that manifest practically?

How are these wordless ballets sparking discussions of faith?

Yeah. So honestly, that's been such a journey for me to learn how to do that. Well, it's funny because that tagline, Amy and I came up with that right in the beginning, but I don't know that we fully understood what we were even saying. It was very aspirational in the beginning. But basically, throughout the years, what we've learned to do is to take topics that sometimes may feel polarizing when we just talk about them. For instance, you know, we have a ballet called All God's Children that is kind of a interpretation of a poem that talks about each one of us being all of God's children and how if we are God's children, we should be equal. The poem was written by Sojourner Truth, and it's a beautiful, beautiful poem. And we kind of took that and something that could feel polarizing or sensitive and put it into the context of kind of this Dr. Seuss storybook world and created a ballet about these four different colors. Basically, it's like purple, blue, orange, and green. And how they kind of have this tension with each other, and then they finally learn that each color has a unique purpose and that there's beauty in the diversity. So that's just a simple example. But there's so many different stories that we tell that give the audience a chance to. To confront issues that are important to God's heart from a perspective that is maybe a little bit less direct and polarizing than, say, talking about it, reading a book. Those things aren't bad at all. But I think sometimes we get over inundated with words, and people actually really appreciate the chance to sit back and just look and see and taste, rather than having to feel like they're engaging their intellectual muscles in that discussion.

Yeah, it's way more inviting. Are non Christians showing up for shows titled all of God's Children?

You know, they are. And that's been the interesting part of kind of this whole experiment is that we have a hugely diverse audience. We pull in just a really wide swath of people. Some people love what we do, honestly, some people not so much. It's definitely something that's taken getting used to, because in the art community, you're not always looked favorably upon if you're using kind of these outside influences, like your faith mixed with art. There's a lot of purists that feel like art just stands alone, but. Yeah, but we do. We have a consistent amount of people coming in and out of our shows every year from kind of every background under the sun.

Yeah, that's fascinating. So if I'm remembering this correctly, at some of your shows, you actually host a literal dialogue with words after the ballet to discuss the themes of the ballet with the audience.

Is that right?

Yeah, that's one of my favorite parts of the night, actually. It's called our Talk Back, and anybody who wants to stay can just sit in the audience and I come out with a few dancers, and then we just talk through any questions the audience has about what they just saw, how it was created. If they want thoughts from us, that's great. Or if they want to share what. How it impacted them or what it made them think. It's kind of all fair game. And it's a really insightful moment for us to get to center around those issues from different perspectives.

That's fascinating. It's amazing to me that non believers are showing up to something like this in a city like Chicago, I think that's incredible and a great sign of God's grace on what you guys are doing. What do you think is true about ballet 58? What are the conditions that God is using to make this winsome to lost people?

Yeah. I think one is just the fact that the dancers themselves bring so much beauty onto the stage. Just the level of craftsmanship that they have is unbelievable. And really, any of our dancers could be dancing for myriad of different companies. It's not in any way kind of this, like, second tier company.

Yeah. It's world class.

Yeah.

At its craft.

Exactly. And that makes such a difference because people are kind of willing to take in your message, I guess, a little bit more if you're doing it in a way that's really artful. I think the choreography, too, and that's, you know, something that God has blessed me in, in the growth of that over the years. But when the choreography is compelling and intriguing, people do show up because artists want to see what's happening, what's new, what's innovative. And I think that's been another kind of way to get people to come see a show. And I think, too, just God positioned me in a certain place with a voice, as a woman, as a Latina. There's certain things that I carry with me that are interesting to people, whether or not they share my background.

Yeah, yeah. It's really good. And there's a lot of lessons in there for our listeners who are not ballet choreographers, but who work as marketers and baristas. Man, if you're so good, they can't ignore you. They'll show up to hear what you have to say about why you do what it is that you do.

But, Juliana, pretend for a second that.

Nobody stayed for these talkbacks at the end of these ballets.

Right.

Everyone leaves. They're not interested in having this discussion. You're literally just there with your dancers. Talk about the eternal value of the ballet beyond its opportunity to open up conversations about life and faith.

Oh, yeah. Such a great question. So I think, for me, as somebody who's been very fortunate to be on both sides of the curtain, many times, I would describe it kind of like a water cycle almost, where the dancers go out on stage, they're filled with the Holy Spirit, they're moving powerfully, they are bringing the imago DEI to the stage, and then that pours out into the audience. And I think as believers, sometimes we.

We.

We honestly undersell the power of the Holy Spirit. And what I'VE seen powerfully is that he does not need help, nor does he need our feeble words to do what he wants to do. And it's amazing watching people just weep as they watch the dance, because in that intimate moment in a dark theater, God is speaking to them. And I don't say that in a kitschy or in a light way. It's a really meaningful, beautifully heavy spiritual moment where the spirit of God is welcomed into that space and he does the work that only he can do. And frankly, I think that's more powerful than anything we do or say. And so I stand on that, knowing that he is working in the intangibles, in the quiet places of people's hearts. And then I think from there, they reflect that back up whether that's, you know, just a question to God, whether they're a believer, and that's worship. And then I think the Holy Spirit then pours out on the dancers. And so you just have this constant cycle of pouring and receiving, and it's just brilliant. And I love watching the Holy Spirit work in that way.

That's so good. I've told this story here before, but you're reminded of it again, and I think the Holy Spirit's bringing it to mind, so I'm going to tell it.

Do you know this story of the.

Composer Olivier Messian and the. This Quartet for the End of Time he wrote in a concentration camp? Do you know the story?

No, I don't.

So Messian's this believer. He was a renowned composer when he was imprisoned in a concentration camp in 1941.

And I guess somehow, lying around this.

Concentration camp, he was able to cobble together a few dilapidated instruments. I think one was a cello. I can't remember what the.

A violin.

I can't remember what the other instruments were. And so he composes this masterpiece called Quartet for the End of Time that was played actually there in the concentration camp. And years later, there was this esteemed pianist who sat down and she was trying to master Messian's music. And this woman's an ardent atheist, but.

As she poured over the music and.

Tried to understand what in the world was messy and saying with this wordless quartet, it had this incredibly profound effect on her. And she said, quote, little by little, I started believing. End quote. Right.

That's the power of the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit doesn't need us to connect.

The dots explicitly for people.

If we filled with the Holy Spirit.

Go out in the world and create.

Beauty and create art, he can connect.

The dots in his own power without us lifting a finger. Amen.

Amen. Oh, that's beautiful. I love that story. Jordan, thanks for sharing that.

You said somewhere, I'm not sure where.

My team got this, but I love this quote. It's related this. He said, quote, watching a ballet, you can allow yourself to get lost in the beauty. Those two hours in a theater can be a refuge, a moment of stillness surrounded by transcendent beauty.

It's not just two hours of escapism and mindless entertainment. I believe that when we encounter transcendent.

Beauty, we carry that with us back into the world. End quote. Say more about that.

What do you mean by carrying that.

Beauty back with us into the world? What are you talking about?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think there's two levels. There's a very physical level where our brains actually mirror what we watch. Right. And we usually use that in the context of a negative. Like if you're watching a show that has a lot of violence, our brain is mirroring that activity. But at the same time, if you're watching something that is absolutely beautiful and you're enveloped, your senses are enveloped in this beauty that is bigger than yourself, I think it's. It's gives you this sense of peace. It gives you this sense of awe. And your brain is actually reflecting that back as well. And I see that when people go out of the theater, their countenance literally is changed from coming in to going out. They have had this experience, experience that has lightened them, it's lifted them, it's allowed them to spend time just focused on beauty rather than all the troubles of our world. And I think in a more spiritual sense, our souls need to be fed. And whether or not people believe in. In a certain religion, I think we all have a soul that needs to be fed. And we feel that that's why you get so much spirituality and this and that out there that's kind of not attached to religion. But I think when you give people a drink from the source, which is God, then they encounter that in a way that is actually real and not just kind of this secular version of it. And, and that's impactful. There's really not a way to. To oversell how impactful the presence of God truly is.

That's really good. Really well said.

I'm curious about how you carry the.

On stage beauty of a Ballet 58 performance back into the off stage internal operations of this nonprofit.

Like, what do you think God finds.

Beautiful about how you do what it is you do professionally? Juliana?

Honestly, that is like an ongoing journey. And I think that's been the unexpected, beautiful journey of doing what I do, because I think at first I was very focused on the performances, on the output. But then as we continued along this path, it became just blindingly clear to me that if we're not operating in a Christlike way, behind the scenes, in rehearsal, in our meeting spaces, in our finances, whatever it is, that we're not glorifying God the way that we think we are. And so, you know, I think I would liken it to kind of this filtering experience where you're constantly sorting out what is it that is necessary to the process and what are kind of old traditions of ballet or of business that really are not Christlike. And I think you've done this so much in many of your books, Jordan, that I've read where you've kind of sorted through, okay, here's a business principle and here's what's helpful, but here's what's actually pointing us to idolatry or pointing us to workaholism and not back to Jesus. And so I've gone through that very similar process and continue to, you know, it's ongoing. Of saying, okay, how do we respect people? How do we ask people for excellence? But in a way that is not exhausting or overwhelming, and that's just a constant work as a leader and introspection as a team.

Talk specifically through that tension of, yes, commitment to excellence, but also commitment to the excellence of the person and them not being burnt down and exhausted. How has your faith informed how you think about that within the ballet company?

Yeah, well, I'd say one that I've been working on lately, and it almost pains me to even say it out loud, but the value of slowness. You can hear it from how I talk. I don't like slow. That word. It's not my word. And I don't know if you do enneagram, Jordan, but I'm a three.

I am, too.

Okay, there you go. No surprise there, right?

No, not at all.

Yeah. And so as a three, it's like, let's move on. Let's get stuff done quickly. I don't like slowing down. I don't love to have to deal with people's tough emotions on different days. It's getting in the way of the work. So I think naturally, my personality tends in that direction. But what I've realized is that when you kind of give in to that side of your personality, it can cause a lot of burnout on accident, because I Do like moving fast. I like going forward. I like constant movement. And I think in my younger years, I just didn't realize that that wasn't something everybody wanted to do, that not everybody operates in that way. And even for myself, though, I enjoy that. As I've gotten older, my body's like, hey, you can't get away with six hours of sleep every night for the rest of your life. You can't get away with just eating kind of whatever and not taking time off on the weekends. So the value of slowness is one that I think has been really practical for me. And slowing down and having kids certainly makes you slow down. A lot of that has impacted the way that I work. And to find that balance of, okay, the arts, you're always on a deadline. There's always a show coming up. We're very deadline driven. But how do we give rest? How do we take a day off when we can? How do we even just slow down the pace of a rehearsal to give people a little time and space and margin? So I think that one, for me, has been very practical and applicable. Yeah.

Have you read Makoto Fujimura talk about his slow art philosophy?

Yes. I love Mako. Yes, brilliant.

I love Mako, too. We gotta have Mako back on the show. And Cal Newport's recent book, Slow Productivity is riffing off a lot of these same themes, which you haven't read it? I highly, highly recommend. It's really, really great.

Oh, yeah.

So last time you're on the podcast, five years ago. Geez. We talked about our shared love of the TV show this Is Us, and how much your story parallels that of Beth Pearson. Do you remember this?

I do.

Do you remember us riffing on this?

Yes.

What we did not talk about, because the episode had not yet aired was season six, episode six called Our Little Island Girl Part two. And I've had a note saved in Evernote about this episode forever because I think it contains one of the best pictures of the gospel I've ever seen.

Do you know what episode I'm talking.

About where Beth is a professional ballet choreographer?

Yes, I absolutely do. I love the show. And, yeah, that was such an impactful episode.

So let me set it up for our listeners. And then I got a question for you based on this episode, Juliana. So most of our listeners, of course.

Haven'T seen the episode.

So the main character, her name is Beth. She's a former ballerina turned instructor and choreographer. And this particular episode focuses on Beth's support of and mentorship of this young ballerina in her studio. And so Beth watches her student go out on stage one night for this huge performance, really high stakes. Beth is off stage watching from the wings, and the student totally bombs. She falls on the floor of the stage with the entire audience watching her. And she doesn't get up because she's deeply ashamed. She's failed to achieve this professional dream of hers. And I love Beth is off stage, sees this happen, rushes out onto the stage and just sits next to this student. She tells her quote, I will sit with you on this stage until the audience gets bored and tired and leaves one by one. Or you can get up, you can start again. Either way. No, two things. You cannot disappoint me and I ain't going anywhere. End quote. Of course, the girl gets up, finishes her routine, and I can't watch this scene without crying. I don't cry over many things, although as I get older I do. This makes me cry like a five year old girl.

Because I think Beth is giving us.

A glimpse of our Heavenly Father, who is on the floor with us in defeat and on the mountaintop with us in victory. He's with us in success and failure.

At the mountaintops and the valleys of our career because we're his children, right? And he's not going anywhere. He's entering into our shame, taking our shame from us and giving us the.

Perfect, unconditional love of the Father. So here's my question for you, Juliana.

How does that reality, how does that theological truth that Christ has taken your.

Shame, that you have the perfect access to the Father at all times in success or failure, how is that shaping you and your work at ballet 58?

Oh, that's powerful. Powerful question. I would say a couple of things. I think first and foremost, it changes how you love people. And I remember a couple of years ago, I was praying over one of the dancers and the Holy Spirit was just very clearly, because I was praying over, you know, kind of something that this dancer was working through. And the Holy Spirit was like, will you love this person even if they never change? Will you love them even if they never change? And I think that for me has been powerful of saying, okay, as a director, as a teacher, as a leader, you know, I want people to experience the love of Jesus. I want people to be transformed. But at the same time, what is most powerful is not trying to fix them or push them towards that. It's exactly what Beth did in that episode. It's just to sit with them, to love them, to let them know that even in Their worst moments, they are still loved. And yeah, it's powerful. And working with so many, you know, 18 to 25 year olds, a lot of them are struggling with that because they're coming into their own as an adult and they're wondering like, am I lovable? Am I able to be loved outside of maybe their family home? Or maybe they had a rough upbringing and they've never experienced that. So that has been a powerful mindset shift for me. In an industry where accomplishing and perfection and product is king, to say I'm willing to take a step back from that and just love you for who you are, that's been huge. And then I'd say second is really for myself because, you know, a lot of us as leaders, we're very good at saying this to other people. Right. I'm great at coaching other people. I know the right things to say, I believe them. But I think Steve Cus says it this way. They are kind of my most precious beliefs, but they're not my deepest beliefs.

That's good.

Yeah. And so I've really been trying to work through that as a leader of like, okay, who Jesus is, his character, his way of being, doing things, that's the most precious to me. But sometimes there's these deep layers from trauma, from hurt that have to be dug out in order for those precious beliefs to be able to be the foundation of my actions. So that's been a leadership journey for me to really accept the cross time and time again, to not fall into the trap of saying, well, I'm a leader and I should know all this by now so I don't get any more grace. Right. I have to achieve, achieve, because I'm the one with the answers to lay that down and to really put it at the feet of Jesus and to accept the gospel for myself on a daily basis.

How are you doing that practically? How are you getting the gospel deeper into your. Yeah, just deeper into your soul, from your head to your heart. What's God using to make that leap for you?

Yeah, I think for me it's a lot of just like small moments, you know, in the morning it's having that quiet time with Jesus and just setting myself up for the day. And I'm a mom, so when I say quiet time, sometimes that's like three or four minutes, you know, I don't want the listeners to think that I'm this super spiritual person. Sometimes it's five minutes on the way to go to a rehearsal, but I try to carve out that time to just have a moment to say, okay, God, today is about you, not about me. I'm putting myself to the side. I'm asking for grace. I know that there's going to be good things and bad things in this day, and will you remind me of your presence through all of it? And then I think from there, it's, for me, very tangible because I'm such a perfectionist. And anytime I disappoint myself, you know, I stumble over my words or I put together a choreography that I think isn't very good in my mind. I've had to learn to say, I am valued and loved by Jesus, even in my imperfection. And sometimes I actually have to say that either out loud or in my mind because I get so hard on myself, you know, when I don't achieve the perfection that I would like.

That's good. That's really good, Juliana. Four questions. We wrap up every episode of the podcast with, number one, what job would you love for the Lord to give you on the new Earth, where we are free from the curse of sin and long enjoying the work of our hands and that work not being in vain?

What do you want to do?

You want to keep choreographing ballet, man?

I mean, I certainly love to choreograph, I think, something that involves beauty. I could kind of go for any number of things, but I would love to be in charge of. Yeah. Whether it's worship service services or even just making the temple a beautiful place, creating beauty is my deep, deep calling, whether it's dance related or not.

Yeah, that's good. Hey, if we open up your Amazon order history, which book would we see you purchasing the Most to Give away to Friends?

Oh, that's such a good one. Probably Managing Leadership Anxiety by Steve Cus.

Wow.

Okay.

But close second would be Redeeming youg Time by Jordan Rayner.

Yeah. Stop, stop, stop. I know that's your husband's answer. Yep. God bless Jeremy Slager. All right, Juliana, who do you want.

To hear on this podcast talking about.

How the Gospels influencing the work they.

Do in the world?

Well, since you brought up Marco, I would say Marco, I'd love to hear another interview with him.

Yeah, man, he's so good. I loved my episode with Hedging His Bride. It was so good. Have you met Hedging before?

We've talked over email because I did a ballet based on some of his paintings, but I've never actually met her face to to face.

Oh, man, they're both incredible. We got to have them back. On the podcast.

All right, Juliana, you're talking to this.

Global audience of Mere Christians, very diverse vocationally.

What's one thing you want to say.

To them before we sign off?

I think probably the biggest thing I could say is that as we're all going through our day to day, let's just be aware of the presence of God. Let's be aware of him in front of us, behind us, to either side, and join me in pausing to remember that his plans are best even when things go awry, and that we know that as leaders we can trust him instead of ourselves.

That's good.

Julian.

I want to commend you for the extraordinary work you do for the glory of God and the good of others. For the beauty that you help create in others and for others. For using your God given talents to scratch off glimpses of the kingdom with words and without them. Friends, if you want to learn more about Juliana's great organization, check out Ballet.

And.

Juliana, thanks for joining us today.

Thanks so much Jordan.

Hey, I hope you guys enjoyed that episode as much as I did.

If you're enjoying the Mere Christians podcast.

Do me a favor and leave a review of the show on Apple, on.

Spotify, wherever you're listening right now. Thank you guys so much for listening.

I'll see you next week.

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