Justin Mathews (Manager at PwC)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back guarantee on this book. I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me, right. I know this is a very different biography. What is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right? So that's the first reason this is a risk and I'm gonna de risk this book for you. Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended. End quote. But here's the thing. In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on 5 mereChristians. Calm and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5merechristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as retail managers Warehouse workers and anthropologists. That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to Justin Matthews, an executive at PwC, the global tax audit and consulting firm. Justin and I recently sat down and had a phenomenal, phenomenal conversation about the dangers of feeling entitled to a calling and purpose in your work. We talked about how to think, who, not how, in prayers for your work. And Justin shared this beautiful and simple way of thinking about how to sow eternity into the world through your vocation. Trust me, this is about to become one of your favorite episodes of the Mere Christians podcast. Do not miss this conversation with my new friend, Justin Matthews. Justin Matthews, welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast.

Hey, Jordan, Happy to be here.

Longtime listener, first time caller. I always love to ask any favorite episodes of the show.

Jenna Barrett's episode from a couple of weeks ago was incredible. I think that might have bumped its way up. I think maybe sky would have been before her, but I think Jenna. Jenna did it for me.

That's a good list. Jenna Barrett and Sky Jatani. I like that. I like that a lot. Hey, a lot of people know PwC, but a lot of people don't. So let's just do some setting of the table here for those who don't know. What is PwC, this firm that you work for?

Yeah. So PwC, some people know it as PricewaterhouseCooper. If you're from maybe the generation before me, it may be Cooper's or Pricewaterhouse, but PwC is a professional services firm with three kind of distinct lines of service. So one is audit, which is what a lot of people know PwC for your traditional kind of accounting services. The other is tax. So really, anything that has to do with how companies report on taxes and pay their taxes and ways to really optimize that. And then the last is the bit I'm involved in, which is called advisory, which deals with our consulting deals and risk practices. And yeah, Jordan, I think this is a great time to mention that while I'm so proud to work for PwC, everything that I share today is definitely my own thoughts and beliefs and not in any way speaking on behalf of the firm.

And now the PwC lawyers can rest easy now.

I can send it to people at work and not get worried. That's exactly right.

No, I always love it when people issue that disclaimer. All right, tell us more about your role within PwC. You're on the management consultant side. What are you focused on specifically?

Yeah, so I grew up doing consulting and finance transformation was kind of my original practice. So helping companies solve issues that dealt with with cash flow and working capital and really anything that the CFO dealt with. Most recently, I did strategy consulting. So helping companies with growth strategy, operation strategy, really anything that had to do with kind of the top line of how your company operates and how they can do it better. But now I actually don't do consulting anymore. I serve our consulting business. So I work for our global advisory leaders to really help them execute upon their strategic objectives. So the group that leads our kind of global advisory businesses so that consulting deals and risk and anything that they need in kind of the execution of who we want to be as a firm.

I love it. All right, let's backtrack in your story a little bit because I read this terrific LinkedIn article. Dude, you're a great writer. You need to be publishing more of these. Okay. No, but I read this really good LinkedIn article from you. I think you published it in 2023, and you were. You were describing a sort of. I don't know if this is too strong a word, but a quarter life crisis, if you will, that you had years ago. You're living in New York City, you had a great job, and yet you were discontent. I think a lot of our listeners have felt that way at some point before. So tell our listeners how you got to the root of that discontent.

Yeah, definitely. I met a guy this weekend who is actually, he's the guy who runs the Faith and Work Fellowship for Redeemer. Yeah.

Is it Paul Sohn?

That's right. Yeah.

I love Paul. Paul's a good friend.

I don't know if you've read his book Calling. Yeah, I was talking to him about that this weekend and I was like, wow, that's exactly what happened to me. So maybe that's a better way to phrase it. It was my quarter life calling. But, yeah, you know, I'd been doing consulting for enough time at that point to realize that I was experiencing a bit of unfulfillment in the work. Like I was getting done. I remember so vividly, it was like during that Covid time. So I was working from home and I'd get done with work and I'd kind of like close the laptop and go on a walk around my block in New York and just have this feeling of like, God, there's gotta be something more, like, what am I missing here? So that really started a big process of like, God was also doing a lot with me from a faith perspective of really pulling me close to him. And it kind of came to the conclusion that, like, if I really do believe that I'm going to spend eternity with God in heaven, and that like this 80 year life or however long we're on earth is but a drop in the bucket compared to that, then I better start, like, really thinking seriously about how I want to walk out that relationship here and now. Which led me into this idea of like, faith and work integration. Like, how do I really integrate my faith in my work? And that took a lot of different kind of discernment directions, but ultimately led to me kind of making a list of like, what are those things that I'm good at? What are the things that, like, God's kind of naturally gifted me at doing? What are those things that I'm passionate about doing? And then where's the opportunity in the world? And that led to multiple years of kind of like three different jobs in three different years, and ultimately landing now at a job that I've been at for a couple months now, but really feels aligned with, with what God created me to do, which is a really cool thing to be able to say, so happy to dig into any kind of piece of that journey.

No, it's good. It's good. And it's been a bunch of different jobs, but it's all been within the PwC universe, which I think is interesting. And today your LinkedIn bio starts with this. You say, quote, my purpose is to work for the flourishing of the world through redemptive participation. End quote. And I want to talk about what that looks like at PwC in a minute, but first, what do you mean by that term, redemptive participation? I think I get it, but I want to make sure.

Yeah. You know, as you articulate well in the sacredness of secular work, and Tim Keller writes about this a lot in every good endeavor and a ton of other things for me, like, work is such a gift to be able to join in with what God's already trying to do. And you do a great job of laying out the broader narrative of the Bible. In other words, not just, I believe in Jesus, therefore I'm saved, it's I believe in Jesus, therefore I'm saved. And also I get to now join him in the work that he's doing to redeem this fallen world and make it the way it really was always supposed to be, in perfect harmony between people and God, and people and each other, and people in creation. So I see work now as a way to join in and what he's already doing, which is bringing redemption to the world. I always think about it in terms of like sowing eternity into the world. Like it's kind of mind blowing when you think about when you believe in Jesus, you accept him as your savior, you're saved, you receive the Holy Spirit, which means you receive the eternal God of the universe into your finite human body and literally are living in the reality of eternity already. So then the question becomes, well then how do I bring that reality to kind of all of the different activities and meetings and things I'm doing today? And I think of maybe a simple way to look at that, which obviously that could go as complex as you want it to go, but a simple way is just thinking about the fruits of the spirit. Like anytime I love a coworker, anytime I bring peace to an anxious situation, anytime I bring goodness to a position of where there's maybe evil, I'm sowing eternity in a very tangible way into the world. So that's how I kind of view kind of my little role in bringing, bringing about the redemption of the world.

It's really, really good. It's really good. Yeah, I think, I think a lot of times we limit our view of redemption to just people and that's certainly a big piece of the story. But I think when you look at the total biblical narrative, it's clear that individual human beings are redeemed so that we might sow eternity into the cosmos. Which yes, includes other people, but also includes the way that culture operates and flourishes. Right. So talk a little bit about those non human acts of redemptive participation beyond sowing the fruits of the spirit amongst your co workers in an effort to quote, unquote, save souls. What eternal value is there? And simply working to make this firm called PwC look a little bit more like the kingdom of God.

Yeah, you know, most recently I went through this career transition where I kind of hung up the consulting boot, so to speak, for good. And one of the reasons was I did this kind of weekend away with the Lord, him and me kind of alone in a cabin in the Hudson Valley. And I asked him, like, what is my purpose? Like I look at this big world and like you want me to. You have good work set up before me. Like Ephesians says, so what am I supposed to be doing? Because I know work is intrinsically good. Like I know that the things I do day to day. Yeah, there's a spiritual component, but there's also a physical reality of doing good. Like what do you want me to do? And I heard him speak so clearly that like, what I'm supposed to be spending my time in doing is bringing companies around an important why, like an important purpose, and then helping them create like tactical strategies to execute upon that why. So when I relate that then to PwC, like, our purpose is to build trust in society and solve important problems. I mean, if that's not a redemptive purpose, I don't know what is. And so it's not about changing The DNA of PwC, it's about rallying our people around what we already say is the reason why we exist, to build trust in society and solve important problems. So for me, anytime I set our consultants or our accountants or anybody up to be able to deliver our mission, so. So in trust, where there's currently not trust, solve a problem where there's currently a problem, then I'm contributing in a little way to the work that God wants to do of just making this world the way it was always supposed to be, without problems and without a lack of trust.

Yeah, it's really good. And so the redemptive participation is, hey, sometimes we can get off base of that why? My job is to help bring us back to the why.

Absolutely.

Yeah. That's good. You told me you were in a different role in 2023, and in our pre interview you shared a little bit about that year, which sounded brutal. Right. And the Lord really using your work in some specific circumstances within the work to sanctify you specifically to use your words by cultivating your trust and obedience to Him. Tell our listeners what was going on last year.

Yeah, so I, you know, in this journey of kind of trying to. I look at it more as like instead of finding my calling, which, which is totally the truth, but it's more of aligning myself with the will of God and, and doing that, there was kind of steps to get here. And one of those steps was accepting a job that at the time, you know, I would have articulated like, man, this is my calling, like, to be a strategy consultant and like help these companies, like rally behind their missions and like really do good. So I was entering it into the season of career with the expectation that I had found my calling and that 40 years from now I was going to be retiring from PwC as a partner in this strategy practice. But then ultimately what happened is I got in and the state of the world of that type of work was really misaligned with my view of how I think work should be. So there was a lot of overwork. There's a worship night on a weeknight. And I had let the team know, like, hey, guys, like, at 8:00pm tonight, I need to go to this thing. And I went to this worship night, and, you know, something hit the fan, and we really needed to get, like, an update to the client on something. So in the middle of this worship night, I'm getting pings from my boss that was saying, like, hey, we really need to get this done. We really need to get this done. And there was just this absolute discomfort, like, almost like anger in me that said, like, all I want to do is sit in the presence of God and worship him, and I can't even do it because this job is crept in everywhere. So I just kind of hit my knees, and I was like, God, this felt like you're calling, like, you opened every door to get here. This seems aligned with what you built me to do. Like, what's going on? And he said, like, as clearly as I've ever heard him speak to me, this is your calling. This is what I've called you to in this season, and your. Your kind of job. And what I'm asking you to walk out is obedience and perseverance. And it was really like a little mini Garden of Gethsemane moment where Jesus is, like, in the garden. He's on his knees and he's bleeding. He's sweating blood because he's in so much agony, because he knows he's about to go to the cross. And he says, God, like, take this cup, Father. Take this cup. And the Father says, no, like, accept the cup. And Jesus said, I will accept the cup, and may not my will be done, but your will. And then he walks out of the garden with this, like, courage and this. Like, this strength of will and this submission to the Father that ultimately allowed him to walk out. What is the most important thing that anybody's ever done in the history of the world. So for me, it was like a little taste of that, where it was like, father, like, not my will, but your will. And that really empowered me to then walk out the rest of the year in a way that was glorifying to him and hopefully had somewhat of an impact. But I do think that the biggest fruit of that season was I learned how to accept the will of the Father whether I liked it or not, and then walk it out in intimacy with the Father, which was, I think, ultimately what he wanted to teach me. You know, it's like Psalm 23 says, like, although I walk the valley, the shadow of death, I fear no evil for you. Are with me. And I really got to understand why sometimes he doesn't remove us from the dark valley, but keeps us there so that we invite him into it and he's able to walk through it with us. Because that's really where, you know, the intimacy and. And the relationship is formed.

Yeah, it's. This is really good. And I kind of love that you didn't share whether you quit that job or not. I mean, we know eventually you transition to a different role, but that's kind of not the point. Like, the point was God was using this experience in this valley for you professionally to cultivate intimacy with him. That was the point, right?

Yeah. Yeah. And it's actually interesting because the way it ended was I was on a project for two weeks, ended up working. So of the 15 days I was on the project, I worked 15 days straight, couple all nighters. And then at the end of the, you know, I wasn't moving fast enough for this manager, so they rolled me off the project and. Which felt like a little bit like deliverance at the moment. I was like, thank you, God, for bringing me out of this moment. But then after meeting with my partner, he let me know that that was actually enough to get me kind of like fired at the end of the year. So I had been at the firm for five years and had really high merits the whole time. But then that one, two week thing could have gotten me kind of pulled from the firm. And that was such a cool moment to get to walk through, because after these months and months and months of walking in this obedience to the Lord, that kind of pinnacle moment happened. Where had I not been in that kind of posture of obedience or submission, that might have crushed me. Like, that might have ruined my, like who. What I thought my identity was. But instead there was like this overwhelming peace in it. And then that ultimately is what, you know, led to me go to the Hudson Valley. Like I mentioned earlier, God speaking purpose. And then ultimately he made a promise. He said that this will be your last consulting project. I was on another project for eight weeks. And he said, but you're not to go looking for a job. I'm going to bring a job to you. And then on the eighth week of that project, my old boss called me, asked me to come back to the team. And then that led to the position I'm in now. So it really was just such a testament to God's steadfast love and faithfulness to say, my son, be obedient to me in this season. Let me teach you how to trust me and how to walk with me. And then just watch what I'll do on the other side of this. Like, don't take control. Let me have control. And then I promise you, I've got something better planned for you.

So you hear the Lord say, there's something else coming at the end of this eight week project, but you get to week seven and three days and you still haven't heard anything. There's still nothing. What are you thinking in that moment? How do you remain faithful to what you believe? The call of God was on your life then.

Oh, yeah. You know, I would love to have been like David and say, like, my heart is steadfast. But ultimately, Jordan, I got, I got so squirmy. I was looking on LinkedIn like, you know, a recruiter had reached out. I'm like, oh, well, maybe if I just like, you know, talk to this recruiter, like, they reached out to me and, and then ultimately, like in God's grace, everything, it was like brick wall after brick wall. And it kind of brought me to that eighth week. And, you know, at this point, you've got staffers reaching out to you, kind of setting up the next project. And I was like, oh my gosh, what is going to happen? But then when I talked to my old boss, I was like, oh, my gosh, like, it's actually happening. And it's funny too, because for me, I was thinking, like, giant career pivot away from the firm and into like, startup land. But what he had for me was so different and frankly, like. And interestingly, like, even from a worldly perspective, like, bigger platform or opportunity to carry out his purpose. So it's just so cool that in the end, if we let him take control, he really does have better plans than what our little minds can imagine. So I definitely got a little squirmy there. But thankfully he's. He's still able to operate even when we try to kind of like navigate outside of our own obedience to him.

I was thinking about this reading the Exodus story for the umpteenth time the other day. I'm like, the Israelites would have never thought to pray for God to open up the Red Sea. Like, it would have never crossed their minds because we are so small and so limited in what we think is possible, right? And so, yeah, man, it makes me, I don't know, just far more reliant on the Lord in my prayers. Like, lord, I think this is what I want. But I know that you see a billion alternate realities that I Can't. And so I'm just putting my trust in you. It sounds like that's kind of what happened with your job search. That was a little microcosm of that, right? Yeah.

No, it really was. I mean, and that's such a beautiful truth. And it really should. In his book on prayer, Tim Keller talks about, like, how we should pray. And the first thing he always recommends is that you always begin just as our Father lays out. Like, Jesus is the one who really taught this with recognizing God and his power and his almightiness, and the fact that he is the God of Gods, the Lord of Lords, the Creator of heaven and earth, the beginning and the end. And then from there, you thank him for that reality. And then from there, then you start asking things. Because, man, if we don't remind ourselves that, yeah, we are, we have an idea of where we want to go, but in reality, he's in control and that's a good thing. Like, that is a blessing that we're not the ones with the wheel. So I love that vision of the Israelites not even thinking that the Red Sea opening to them would be an option and God having a better plan. That's such a perfect image of that.

Did you read the book who, not how by Dan Sullivan and Benjamin Hardy?

No.

Okay, so you kind of get the gist from the title, right? It's written for business leaders, and the concept is, hey, when entrepreneurs or executives are swamped, they try to answer the how question. How do I get unswamped? How do I solve this problem? Whatever. When in reality, what we should be asking is, who? Who can I hire that already has the expertise to solve that problem? But I think for us as mere Christians, there's an even higher level who, not how application, right? Like when we are jobless, when we can't see a way out of this situation with an oppressive boss. I think, man, you and I know, I am so tempted to figure out, how can I solve the problem? How can I solve the problem? No, who can solve the problem? The Lord is the only one who can solve these problems. So I think, man, I'm. I'm preaching to myself here, first and foremost, man, but, like, that's a good word for my prayer life. Not praying about the how, not even praying about the what, but just spending more time basking in the presence of the who and reminding myself of his awe and power that will give me peace regardless of what the water, the how is. Amen.

Amen. And Jordan, I think that is the more I Like, walk in this reality of the sacredness of secular work or bringing your faith into your work, like, however people want to phrase it. I think oftentimes when you get an image of this, the temptation is like, gotta find my calling. Gotta do my work. Gotta glorify God. Like, gotta be a master. So he knows, like. But what I'm realizing more and more is that the point of finding, like, the good works that he set out before you or finding your calling is. Isn't even about the work. It's about that on the other side of finding that calling, you have alignment with his will. And in alignment with his will, you get to experience his presence in a way that you could never experience before. And so ultimately, like, even all of this amazing reality and theology of, like, work and the goodness of work and why God has us doing good works, it's all onto the purpose of relationship, of getting to walk out an entire lifetime with a father who loves you, a Savior who saved you, and a Holy Spirit that's ever present. And I love that because, like, in Psalm 23, if we go back there, like, you walk through the valley, shadow of death, if you're no evil, but then it ends with, surely your goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever. It's like, man, that. That has been the joy of this season is that, yeah, like, I really do feel aligned with my calling. And every day, Tim Keller always says, like, roses and thorns right in work. So there are bad days. But every day, I really feel like it's a privilege to get to do my job. But on the other side of that has been an experience of God's presence that I had never experienced before. And I think that is really the reason behind all of this. It's not the how, it's the who, it's not the what, it's the who, it's not the why, it's the who. Like, it's always back to, God just wants to know you and wants to be with you and wants you to be with them every single day of every single, you know, every single moment of your life. So I love that point you made. And it really does speak to the broader kind of lesson I've learned in the season, which is it really just is about the presence of God. Yeah.

And it's part of the reason why I'm so passionate about this topic. Right. I think many. Nope, I'll say most. I think that's true. Most believers walk through the third of their lives they spend working with no understanding that God wants to be with them in that work, that God cares about the substance of what's happening within that work. And if I don't believe that the work I spend 40, 50, 60 hours a week doing matters to him, there's no way I'm going to feel his pleasure as I'm doing it. There's no way I'm going to feel his presence as I'm doing it. But if I do, that's a game changer. That's a game changer. By the way, and forgive me if you were the one who pointed this out. I read this this week. It may have been reading your. Your blog post, I can't remember, but somebody pointed out to me that the structure of Psalm 23 is fascinating. So in verses one through three, David's talking to the Lord in the third person. The Lord is my shepherd. He makes me lie down. And then in verse four, it says, even though I walk through the darkest valley, I will fear no evil, for you are with me. It gets personal, Right? It's no longer the Lord, this abstract idea. What's interesting to me is that it's in the darkest valley.

Wow.

That that relationship becomes personal. Was it you who pointed this out?

No, but that is absolutely beautiful, guys. I've. I've experienced this.

That you. That's exactly what you were just talking about. I love it so much. I mean, the Lord just Inception style, put that in my head for such a time as this podcast episode. Hey, go back. Let's go back in time one more time. I want to go back to the worship service. I've been there. I remember one of my first company, we were in client service. And I remember before I took digital Sabbath or whatever, I would be in church or just be with my family. My wife at the time, and she's still my wife. We didn't have kids. That's what I mean. And being pinged by clients nonstop and feeling the pressure of that and the burden of that, and you're in that moment. And when you told this during the pre interview, I'm going to quote you exactly, you said you heard the Lord saying to you, this is my mission field. I don't know why you thought my mission field was going to be easy, end quote. And I love that perspective. And I want you to talk more of it because, man, I think many Christians assume that if our work is difficult, it must not be where God wants us. And I think if we're following Jesus I actually think the opposite is more likely true.

Right. Yeah. No, I couldn't agree more. I mean, another way he put it to me in that season was just. Just because it's hard doesn't mean it's bad. And I was like, wow, what a simple but profound truth. Like, if you think about Jesus and his. His mission, or if you think about the apostles taking forth the gospel, or if you think about, like, the majority of early Christians, most of them are martyred, like, most of the time. In those days, a call to follow Jesus was a call to not just spiritual death, of dying to yourself, but a physical death and of being brutally murdered. And I think about that in the context of, like, this kind of American dream world that we live in, where life is so comfortable that we expect that in following the Lord, our life just becomes more comfortable. It's like a manifestation of the American dream, but in reality, it's supposed to demand something from you. Like, it's supposed to, like, you're supposed to have to sell everything to buy the pearl of great price. You're supposed to have to give of yourself for the sake of Jesus. So I do think that's an important thing for people to understand. Like, in that season or like, in that specific moment in the worship service. It wasn't the fact that my job was demanding a lot from me. It was the fact that there was no escape from it. And there's a whole, obviously, conversation about rest and work. But I do think, in general, it's okay for the work to be hard, and if anything, it's actually good, because it's in the hardness of the work that you reach your point of, like, I guess, the threshold of your independence and then move into dependence on God, which is ultimately, you know, that even goes back to what we were just saying, that then. Then you get the relationship. So I do think we should almost not be surprised when things are hard if we're really trying to follow the Lord, but actually hope for it in some ways. Because if you think about, like, in Romans where Paul says not only that, but we. We actually take joy in our suffering because in suffering, like, I'm going to botch this quote, but, you know, it produces hope and then perseverance, and then hope never fails. However that verse goes, it is so truthful. And if we really want a life of. Of intimacy with God and ultimately getting to experience the gifts of heaven now, to some extent, then we need suffering. It's almost like a necessary factor. So when we accept the call of God and We search out our calling and our vocation. We shouldn't avoid trials. We shouldn't avoid it being hard. If anything, it being hard is probably a sign that you're headed along the right path to a certain extent. Please do apply discernment to all of that. But yeah, I think that's an incredibly important factor of a Jordan.

No, I think that's exactly right. And like thinking about this the other day, I think if you polled American Christians on what their goals are for their life, they wouldn't look that different from just Americans and Westerners in general. Like, I think our top goals tend to be retirement, retire, early recreation, renown and fame. Frankly, I think Christians, a lot of Christians goals, although they would never say it this way, is retreat from the world. Like, I'm going to hunker down and avoid as much sin as I can. Jesus goal was to die and redeem, right? Like, it's just in such stark contrast to the way that we think about our lives. And so man, we need to be redeeming our time. But I also think we need to be redeeming our goals and objectives and, and what we're chasing after and chasing after hard things because we have been given this gift of citizens citizenship in the kingdom. The Holy Spirit has been implanted us not so we could it to ourselves as a selfish gift, but so that we can sow eternity into the world. As you said, it's a redemption to the ends of the earth. Amen.

Amen. And I just will add to that too, like the single verse that changed my life more than any other verse is Psalm 37:4. Delight in the Lord and he will give you the desires of your heart. And what I realize, and I feel like this is probably true for a lot of Christians, and especially American Christians, is the desires of our heart are so much bigger and more important to us than delighting in the Lord. And if you're anything like me, when I first heard that, I didn't even know what the light in the Lord looked like or felt like or was supposed to be like. So I think getting an image of like actually delighting in the Lord and experiencing joy in his presence, where there's the fullness of joy and like actually building that relationship that then empowers you to want to rearrange your desires, that actually changes your desires. And then you, it's not, you don't necessarily have to seek out hard things because hard things will come in this world, but you will approach those hard things from a different lane of saying, lord, take it all. Like, whatever it takes, you're good enough and you're worth it. Because I've experienced that delight. I've experienced that, as Augustine said, like, my heart is restless until it rests in you. And now that I've experienced that rest, now that I've experienced that joy, now that I've experienced that delight, I'll do whatever it takes to maintain that for the rest of my life. And so I think, like, if anybody is hearing this and, like, is maybe discouraged or, like, scared of hard times, as I often am, too, I think more than praying for anything else, it's praying for the presence of God, praying to experience that delight, praying to experience that joy in his presence. And, like, really praying for that intimacy. And because, man, once you get a vision for that or a feeling of that, or you hear the Father, the Creator of the universe speaking to you, man, then you can really take on a lot.

Yeah, bro, it's really good. Hey, you mentioned something else in that LinkedIn post I mentioned, which, by the way, producers, we got to find a way to link this in the show notes, but something else I want to follow up on. You said quote, Jordan, can I just.

Say, too, I started doing these articles after I read Master of One because I took a spiritual gifts test a couple of years ago, and one of the gifts it gave me or revealed was teaching. And it really surprised me, but I realized that actually teaching does give me a ton of joy, both in a public speaking arena, but also in a writing arena. And I was like, well, if I'm really going to, like, exercise this gift, then a really good way for me to begin becoming a master of this craft is by writing, is by actually doing it. So I just started doing that and. And I realized I have such a limited audience, and it's kind of like, that's okay because it's not about the audience, it's about the craft and getting better at that. So, anyway, I give you some props for that because it was after reading Masters of Master of One that I started doing that.

Well, hey, pro tip, enjoy the fact that nobody reads your stuff. Although that might change after that episode. Man, once people start reading, you got to. You got to hold the, hold the bat back a little bit. You said it. One of those. One of those articles, quote, I'm no longer doing things to perform well for my bosses. And here's the part I loved. With a thin veil of altruism articulated as serving my clients. Now there's a deep sense that my work matters. End quote. So, two reasons why I want to follow up on this. First, I think you played your hand as a fan of Taylor Swift's Anti Hero with this lie.

No, not on purpose. But honestly, I am such a fan. That probably crept in.

Oh my gosh, I love that it crept in. Come on. Did you hear my covert narcissism, my disguises altruism, like some kind of. Of congressman. Gosh, I noticed you. There you go. Even if, even if you can't notice it. All right, here's the real reason why, why I wanted to pull up though. You, you hit on, man, I think how insanely easy it is to thinly veil idolatry of our work in Christian platitudes, right? Like, oh, like I'm doing the work of the Lord and so it's okay that I work 90 hours a week and never rest, right? Have you struggled with this personally?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. For me, because of my upbringing and just a variety of factors, I think a lot of people fall into the same category. For me, it was performance. It was, man, if I am seen as like, good at my job, if I get that high tier ranking, if I get that, which that comes with the bonus. But really the money wasn't it? It was, can I get that high tier rating and can people think of me as good at what I do? Then I'll be kind of complete or whatever. And ultimately, like, that's what like that stage of consulting was for me. It was, I wanted to, because I was a Christian and because I want to have a bigger purpose than doing my work. Like, I want to do it for my clients and to help them and to serve them and to make their lives better. But ultimately, like, I am doing it because I want my boss to look kindly upon me and to think that I'm good at my job. And that is, I think, something that there's every Christian, I mean, in general, right? But especially in work, has to face, find face down and like, kill those idols. Because until you do that, you will always have something in the way of your worship to God. And like we were saying earlier, inviting his presence into your work. And honestly, it's hard to do because in corporate America or just in business in general, idolatry, although it's not called that, is so well accepted, right? Like, make the money, get the promotion, be highly acclaimed, whatever it may be, is so well accepted in our culture and so praised in our culture that it becomes normal to get into a firm like, like mine or any of the, you know, professional Services firm where there is such a high criteria to get in and then such a kind of like, you're around the best, so be the best like mentality to come in and live out that truth. But in the reality, like as a Christian, our identity is, you know, I love. Rob Reiner says this in Soul Care. Like our value was settled on the cross. Like our identity is as a son or a daughter of the risen of the father, right. A prince or princess in the kingdom of Heaven. So we do not need money or validation from our boss or promotion or to validate our existence. We can be free then to love people selflessly even to the cross. Right. Because we are free to do that knowing that as Daniel puts it, we are highly acclaimed in the kingdom of Heaven. So I think it's hard to do though in corporate America because, yeah, ultimately because these things are so well accepted, what you find is that man, people go down this path to its logical end. And the logical end is like pretty profound darkness and sadness and unfulfillment. And you think about the amount of stories you hear about fathers who are absentee or like divorces that happen or people who are. Are medicating themselves with drugs or alcohol or whatever. It's ultimately because like these idols of work and money will never satisfy. And I had this crazy, like this really beautiful conversation with a Fellow kind of PwC like manager. And she was saying, I got that promotion to manager. And. And then I was like, well, now what? And I'm like, yeah, that's exactly the point. Because these things will never. There will always be a now what until your identity and your worth is settled with. With Jesus, which is where it was always meant to be. So I think it's important work to find and kind of knock down these idols through the power of the Holy Spirit and know that it is hard because there really is almost like a temple worship of sorts set up in a lot of our. In corporate America and the way that it's set up.

Yeah. And I think corporate America is setting up a lot of those idols. But I also think this faith and work conversation can unintentionally set up some of those idols. Right. Let me, let me riff on this for a second and see if you see if you're tracking with me like, we have to kill idols ruthlessly. Counterfeit Gods. Freedom of Self Forgetfulness by Tim Keller. Excellent books to that end. And yet you want to do your most exceptional work because you believe, as we talked about before, that your work is a means of redemptive participation.

Right.

But if you do exceptional work at PwC, Justin, there typically comes with that. Not always, but there typically comes with that. More money, bigger titles, and more and more temptation. Right. So there's a tension here, and I'm curious to hear if you've thought about how to manage this. Well, but, like, how do you manage that tension between pursuing excellence in the work because you believe that you are sowing eternity into a place like PwC and rejecting the idolatrous temptations that come when you are naturally achieving more and being given more responsibility within the firm? Does that make sense?

Yeah, no, definitely. I think, ultimately, because it really is. You're right. I just want to validate. That is a huge temptation. And, like, you think about, like, mastery of one, right? Like, you were called and created to do a thing, so become great at that thing. Like, that actually is aligned with the truth of the gospel. Like, that is what God. That is God's truth. The problem is us as humans, we love to make idols out of things. And you're right, we take that and we run with it. And we say that, like, I can do this in my own power and contribute to God's kingdom in my own power, but the reality is, like, we do not have the power to do this. Like, we. I was actually preparing for this conversation or reflecting back on some of my journal entries from that time of kind of, like, discontent last year. And one of the things I wrote, like, I was in our. Like, I go to Church of the City here in New York. John Tyson's been on the podcast. It's such a joy.

I got lots of Church of the City friends. It's awesome.

Yeah, it's such a joy to be in a church that, like, really chases after the presence of God. But because of that, we do prayer rooms multiple times a day. And I was in the prayer room in this season, and I just remember I was on my knees under the, like, revelation that we are not. Like, we don't deserve to have a calling. Like, we are not entitled to our purpose. Like, we are not entitled to do the work of God. And I just was on my knees repenting of that of, like, God. Like, I've been chasing after my calling and my purpose and, like, doing excellent work and all these things. But, like, it is a gift from you that you would choose to use broken, sinful, finite people to carry out your redemption of this world. So, like, I really did have to repent of that. And I honestly, That's a. That's a daily Right. Repentance of, like, God, please do not let me make this about me. I want to make it about me. I want to make it about me. I want to make it about me. But it's not. It's about you. Like, the story that I'm participating in is your story, not Justin's story. So I do think having that revelation of, like, man, I'm not entitled to this work, and it's not my story. It's God's work, and it's God's story. And then what does that do? It brings you right back in a relationship to say, I do not want to speak a word. I don't hear you speaking or do a thing. I don't hear you doing. Like, please do not let me separate from you and your will.

Mm. That's really good. I told this story in the sacredness of secular work. I hate the word deserve, and I hate anything that, like, smells of entitlement. And there's this one time, my daughter Kate. I think it was her sixth birthday, she came up to me, she said, daddy, Gigi owes me a trip to build a bear, right? And I was like, oh, man, this is great. I could teach my kid a lesson about grace. I was like, kate, nobody owes you a thing. I literally said, I was like, the only thing you and I deserve is death because of our sin, everything else. And she cuts me off. It's like, no, no. But, dad, look at this car from Gigi. It says, I quote, oh, you, a trip to build a bear. And I felt like an idiot. But, hey, listen, my point still stands, right? Like, you and I, the only thing we are entitled to is eternity apart from God. Do our sin justly. Do our sin right? But in Christ, we have redemption and salvation. That's the mercy, right? But in his grace, God has given us a calling and a purpose and has given us good works that somehow miraculously, even as miraculous as the resurrection itself, are a means of scripture sowing God's kingdom on earth as it is in heaven. But, man, I love that you pointed that out. Justin, we don't deserve that. We are not entitled to a calling or a purpose as I'm talking. I'm repenting of that with you, brother. That's a good word. That's a really good word. Hey, bro, four questions. We wrap up every show with Can't Believe We're Running out of Time. I could talk for hours about this. What job would you love in God's grace for him to give you on the new earth free from the curse of sin.

Jordan, I love this question, and I love that you ask it, because, by.

The way, I ask it to, like, I'll, like, joke about this, like, in the real world, and people laugh, and then I'm like, but for real, like, I'm serious. I'm serious.

The reason why the question's so great is because so many of us grew up with this, like, not, like, this truncated view of salvation. And to get to imagine what the world's going to be like in the new creation, like, is such a joy.

By the way, little, Little psa. If you're an aspiring novelist and want to write this to expand our biblically informed imaginations, I will promote it to my entire audience. Please, somebody write a novel set on the new earth with Isaiah 65 as your basis. There you go. And PSA. Okay, what do you want to do?

And I will be the first person to buy that book. I love people, Jordan, and I love leading people. So I think it's vague, but, like, I want to be a leader of people in the new heavens and new Earth. And I think. I don't know if, like, that looks like what I'm doing now, like, creating strategy and making that strategy into, like, execution and then bringing that to life. But whatever it is, I want to be in deep relationship with as many people as possible, knowing that under a glorified form, I could probably maintain a ton of relationships like that, to me, sounds like a ton of fun. So whatever that job is, that's what I want. That's good.

Hey, if we opened up your Amazon order history, which book would we see you buying over and over and over again to give away to friends?

All right, well, this. This question is always convicting Jordan, because I do not give away enough books is what this question teaches me. I love that answer, but I do recommend books.

And what do you talk about the most? Maybe that's a different reframe of that question.

Yeah, I'll do a couple. Just quickly. I mean, I will say, and it's not just because I'm on your podcast. I recommend the Sacredness of Secular work in the Master one more than any other book I've ever read, because it's so practical and important for people to understand this in their work. So that's a big one for me.

By the way, you mentioned Paul Sohn a couple of minutes ago who's running. Yeah, Redeemers center for Faith and Work in New York that Tim Keller founded. He gives away the sacredness. Second, work like crazy and I pinged him one time. I was like, paul, thank you. Number one, love it. Number two, you're at Redeemer. You're at Tim Keller's Redeemer. Like, really? Like, you're, you know. But he's like, no, dude. Like, you're saying things in here that Tim never really went deep on. I'm like, okay, if you say so, but Tim's the one I give away the most.

I just reread every good endeavor and I do, I do have to, like, you always have to recommend that one. I'm actually doing Gotham this year, Jordan, and.

Oh, that's awesome.

We had our first retreat this weekend and reading the end of every good endeavor where Tim Keller talks about Gotham as I step into the room to begin, it was just such a cool experience.

All right, so hold on. 95% of our listeners have no idea what you're talking about. Give the 32nd pitch of what the Gotham Fellowship is.

Is. Yeah, the Gotham Fellowship is a nine month. The way I like to describe it, my little elevator pitch is it's seminary for business people. It's a deep dive into the theology of faith and work in community in New York City, where, yeah, you learn a lot about faith and work, but you do it with a group of people that meets every single week. And you do it. Yeah. To basically form your. Your understanding of faith and understand relationship with God and then live that out in a. In a practical and redeeming way in New York, but also in your workplace.

Yeah, I love it so much. Hey, dude, who do you want to hear on this podcast?

I don't know the name, Jordan, but I would love to hear a CEO or exec, like someone in the executive suite of, like, a Fortune 500, like, big corporate company who practically applies the stuff that we're talking about right now to their work. Because I have searched, like, long and wide to find, like, mentors or anybody that's like, really at that. The generation above us that really lives this stuff out and have really important big jobs that up, you know, demand a lot from them, but still do it for the glory of God. I really want to hear a perspective on that.

That's good. That's really good. All right, Justin, what's one thing you want to leave our listeners with before we sign off?

Yeah, look, I. I think the number one thing I've learned in this season is that it's all about the presence of God. Like, all of the things that we're talking about here are just so we can truly live every day with the Lord. And it always brings me Back to Psalm 84:10 Better is one day in your course than a thousand elsewhere. I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked. And reading that verse before I came on it kind of it's the first time I ever noticed that. Like he talks about a job in that verse, like I'd rather be a doorkeeper, like this humble little job in the in the kingdom of God, than to dwell and relax in the tents of the wicked. And I really have seen that to be true and, and I hope that throughout my life it gets even more true. But the number one thing I would say is it is better to be in the in one day in the courts of God than spend a thousands elsewhere.

That's good. It's a great word to end on, bro. I want to commend you for the exceptional work you do man, for the glory of God and the good of all others. Heard so much about your great work from mutual friends and thank you for the reminder to source our purpose in Jesus's redemptive act, but also for the reminder that God's presence is in large part the purpose, right? And so man, that was such a good reminder that I needed today. Guys, if you want to connect with Justin, you can find him pretty easily on LinkedIn. Justin Matthews Search PwC and you'll find it pretty easily. Justin man, thank you so much for your time today.

Brother Jordan. Thank you so much. It was a joy and an honor and the glory be to God.

Amen. I freaking loved that episode. I hope you guys did too. Hey, if you've got a guest that you'd love to hear on the show, let me know@jordan rar.com contact thank you guys for listening. I'll see you next week. Hey friends, this is your last chance to claim all the amazing pre order bonuses for five mere Christians before they go away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9. I've never offered this many pre order bonuses on a book before, so when you fill out the form at 5merechristians.com. Number one, you're going to be entered to win an incredible trip for you and a friend to tour CS Lewis's favorite spots in Oxford, explore Olay, Kirk Christensen's former stomping grounds at Lego headquarters in Denmark, and much more. Number two, you'll be invited to join my first ever interactive reading, culminating in a zoom call with me and my co author on this book, Kaylee Cox. Number three, you're going to be getting a money back guarantee to try the book risk free. And number four, you'll also get access to a free course I'm not selling anywhere called how to write a book 10x faster and better with an Affordable co Author. You can claim all these bonuses in just two simple steps. Step 1 Pre order 5 mere Christians in any format you want. It can be hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever and you can order it from wherever. It doesn't matter to me. Step 2 Go to 5Mere Christians.com and fill out the form of that page and that's it. I'll send you all those bonuses. You'll be entered into the sweepstakes with one simple form submission. But hey, don't wait all of these off. All of these offers, all these bonuses, they're going away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9th. So visit 5Mere Christians.com right now to claim your bonuses.

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