Kaleigh Cox (VP of Business Development for DxTEL)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back guarantee on this book. I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me, right. I know this is a very different biography. What is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right? So that's the first reason this is a risk and I'm gonna de risk this book for you. Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended. End quote. But here's the thing. In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5meerchristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all the pre order bonuses listed on 5merechristians.com and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5merechristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians podcast. Jordan, I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as biologists concierges, and soldiers. That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to one of my favorite people, Kaylee Cox. She's a brilliant missionary turned executive. Kaylee and I recently sat down to talk about how to stop viewing your co workers as salvation projects. We talked about the number one thing that pastors can do to free the mere Christians in their pews from feeling like JV Christians. And how the gospel compels us to market in ways that serve always, even while selling. Trust me, you're gonna love this episode with my friend, Kaylee Cox. Kaylee Cox, my friend, welcome to the Mere Christians podcast.

Thank you so much, Jordan. I'm really excited to be here.

I've been so about this episode for a long time. We've kind of, like, rescheduled this a bunch of times. I was sick. I don't. I don't know what was going on. We're finally doing it. Hey, so I know your backstory. Our listeners obviously don't. I want our listeners to hear the story that brought you to the work you're doing today and listen, like, feel free to take your time. I know this starts pretty early on in your childhood, like when you were five years old, right?

Yes, absolutely. There is probably no topic tied to the Christian faith I have thought more about than work and calling. And it did start very young for me. I was raised in a Christian home, a healthy home, a healthy church community. Not perfect, but certainly healthy. And I came to love Jesus at a really young age. I accepted Christ at around 5 years old. And at that time, that same age, we had a missionary come speak at the church we were in at the time. And I remember them saying, if you are willing to go on the mission field, God will send you because there is such a need there. And just that early. And this is probably one of my earliest memories, quite frankly.

But, yeah, it's gotta be. Yeah, I don't remember anything for when I was five.

Yeah, I don't think I remember much from before five. So, yeah, so very, very early I had this idea of this equation, basically, if I was serious about my love for Jesus, and I was, I was genuine in that I would ultimately become a missionary. And so it wasn't this sense of calling at all. It was just this understanding.

One plus one equals two.

Exactly.

Which I think most mere Christians have made that calculation at some point or another.

Yes. Yeah. So. And I think the missionary meant well. I don't hold this against him at all, but that kind of if then statement became ingrained in my psyche really young. And so starting at 13 years old, I started. Started going on regular short term mission trips with my church. Great experiences with those. At the same time as I was getting into middle and high school, I was really good at school. I graduated top of my class. I got a great scholarship to where I wanted to go, which was Furman University. And so you kind of have these dual paths, right? Like, I'm very serious about my love for Jesus and my heart for missions. I'm also a natural in school. And so I get to Furman and I was there maybe a year when Kisses from Katie came out by Katie Davis.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is a big book.

Yes, yes. And I have. I still think she is an incredible woman and role model. But it did stir back up this if then statement in me again, because she was only a year older than me. And whereas I had gone to Furman, a very cushy campus, gated campus, you know, it's like living on a golf course. She had chose not to go to school and had moved to Africa and was making this really tangible difference. And it stirred up these questions of like, man, if I love Jesus like she does and I do, shouldn't I be going too? And I really wrestled with that for a while and ultimately landed on staying at Furman. I didn't feel like God wanted me to walk away from Furman. I felt like that was an opportunity he had paved the way for. I mean, with the scholarship and I was growing in Christ and I chose to stay. But at the end of my four years at Furman, which were wonderful years, I went on a trip called the.

World Race that my assistant's been on. Have I made that connection for you before?

Yes. She did it as a married couple. We didn't have any married couples on my squad. But it's a trip for the, for your listeners who may not know that goes to 11 countries in 11 months. And so I went on that right out of college. I was dating my now husband Grant at the time, but he had another year of school. I was a year older. And so went on the World Race. And what I started to notice while I was out there doing ministry and you, you partner with a, an existing church or ministry in each country and you just come in and provide support for that one month. It's a great model. But what I noticed was I felt like my most fruitful ministry while I was overseas was happening back in the United States because every missionary on the World Race is encouraged to blog about their experiences. And I found that there were so many people home that I knew from various circles reading these posts and talking to Grant about the impact they were having or leaving comments or messaging me. And I started to realize I am wired to do ministry in the U.S. like, I know that language, I know that culture, and I am right here, you know, shoulder to shoulder with people who need Jesus, but I don't know their language and I don't know their culture, and I don't feel called to learn it like many missionaries are. And so I started to really get the sense of, okay, I am called to do ministry to be in the United States. So finished the trip, came back, married my husband Grant. We moved to Memphis. We're from South Carolina. We moved to Memphis. And I bounced around with a few different jobs there. It's where I really first began to see and experience just how much God was going to use my work to draw me unto himself through those. Through those roles. But not going to get too bogged down in the details there. We ultimately moved back to South Carolina after a couple of years, and in that move, I started working as a freelancer. Freelancer. I was doing website copy and other copywriting, but at the same time, I was always kind of looking for job openings at churches or ministries, thinking, like, God wants me to do ministry, the.

Real work of the Lord, right?

The real work of the kingdom. Like, I'm serious about my faith, so that's how I should be spending my time. But what happened is he kept blessing my freelancing business in really big ways and at the same time, shutting the door on every opportunity I tried to pursue in churches or nonprofits. And I finally just came to the belief that, hey, God is calling me to the marketplace, the business world, and maybe it's forever and maybe it's not, but it's definitely for right now. And there was a quote that I heard from Jill Briscoe at an if gathering livestream around that time. This would been, I don't know, 2017 or so. And she said, you go where you're sent, you stay where you're put. You give what you've got until you're done. And that has always stuck with me and continues to be my focus of. I don't know if or when God may ever call me into any kind of formal ministry. I'm very involved at my church, but any kind of vocational ministry. But he has definitely called me to where I am right now, and I'm going to stay there. Until he makes it clear he has something else. And I'm going to give what I got, what I've got. And so as a freelancer, I met a client here in Columbia, South Carolina who had a marketing startup in the broadband space. We really hit it off professionally and our work together grew. And today I am vice president of business development and content operations for his company. And I'm not freelancing anymore. But still, that strong sense of calling to be where I am.

I love it. I love it so much. And I want to learn more about the work you're doing today. In a minute. But first, I love the language you used to describe the guilt that you felt for leaving the mission field, for working as a mere Christian. You call it feeling like you were a JV Christian. Right. What do you wish you would hear more pastors saying and doing to help the mere Christians in their pews see themselves as varsity Christians and not on the JV team?

There is a lot that pastors could be doing, but honestly the number one thing that comes to mind would be very simple for them to implement. And it is that I would love to see them commission mere Christians the way they commission missionaries. So in every church I've been in, and I've been in church my whole life, I have seen churches commission missionaries. And whether it's for short term trips or long term trips, and I have been on the receiving end of that commissioning as well on my various mission trips. And the way that works is they bring the missionaries onto the stage. They may share briefly about the work they're feeling called to do, the people they're feeling called to speak, serve, and then how you can be praying for them or supporting them, and then the entire church kind of bows their head while someone leads a prayer over the work that these missionaries are called to. And I just have this deep longing to see churches normalize, doing that for the mere Christian. And so when you have a college student graduating college and entering or high school, some people go directly into a trade. But when you have a student entering a career field for the first time, or when you have someone changing career fields in the church, I thought of it recently because someone on staff at our church stepped down and it was nothing dramatic, but he stepped down. He still serves in our church and he's currently working at Chick Fil A. And I thought, man, it would be so cool if we commissioned him for his work at Chick Fil A. Or if, if when a student is getting into their first job, if we got them up There and said, you know, in a few sentences, tell us about why you're excited to do this work and what you hope to learn there and how you hope to serve the world there. And then let's all pray for you. I think that simple thing would go so far to communicating to everyone in the pew that whatever you're doing, treat it as a calling and approach it with intentionality and know that it has purpose. And, man, yeah, that would be my number one answer.

100%. That'd be my number one answer, too. I can't remember if I told you this. I gave this speech at this huge youth conference this past summer in Indiana and really just teaching on a foundational theology of work without using the word theology. I just used a bunch of Taylor Swift gifts and, dude, perfect gifts, because there's a room full of high schoolers, right? But at the end, I asked the kids to stand based on what their vocational dreams were that God placed in their hearts. Like, hey, stand up if you feel called to business and entrepreneurship, whatever. Stand up if you feel called to the trades, right? Stand up if you feel called to health care. And these kids were, like, so pumped. Everyone's standing up. And I forced from the state their youth pastors to lay hands on them and commission them for all that work. And we also asked, hey, some of you are feel called to the pastorate, please stand to do that. If you feel called to the mission field, stand to do that and just lay hands on these. These kids were weeping like nobody had ever told them. And I said, I was like, listen, you don't need permission from me to do this work. You don't need permission from your pastor to lean into this. Because all throughout Scripture, God blesses and commands his people to make culture. You got all the permission you need, but we're going to give it to you anyways. Because giving it to him, man, that's the start of helping mere Christians in the pews feel like they, too, were all on the varsity team and not the JV team. Amen.

Yeah. Oh, man, I, like, teared up hearing that. I think I was talking about this topic with a friend of mine who splits her time. She works for a nonprofit that serves women coming out of sex trafficking here in South Carolina. And then she works part time at a piano store owned by someone from her church community. She's not in my church community, and she's very passionate about this topic as well. And I was talking to her about your work and its influence on me and how passionate I am Oh, I think I was actually getting ready. I spoke at a women's event at my church on this topic, I think, and I was talking to her about that and she said, man, Kaylee, I try to tell people this all the time, that their work matters. And they say, of course you think that you work at a nonprofit that works with women coming out of sex trafficking. That's really easy for you to say. And she's like, man, it's so cool that the Lord has positioned you to talk about this or to be an example for this while you are in an ordinary job because people will listen to you. And I think that's why it's so important for pastors to not just preach about this, but to give the mere Christians in their church the opportunity to be an example and to talk about it.

Yes, to give us three dimensional models of what it looks like to glorify God through our seemingly quote unquote secular work. So speaking of, tell us a little bit about your quote unquote secular work. You work for this business called DX Tell. What is DX Tell?

We are a broadband marketing company. Our clients are mostly small to mid size Internet providers, so not the national brands, but a lot of them are telephone or electric cooperatives or even family owned. Most of them serve in rural or suburban North America. We have about 200 clients across everything we do. Half of our company operates as a marketing agency for broadband providers. That's your more traditional model where we're doing the strategy consulting, coming up with a plan, executing it and reporting it. Since we've grown, I've been able to get out of that side and move over to the software as a service side, which is the part I really love. And that's where we have platforms that kind of solve marketing problems in our industry at search scale. So the first one was the, the one I got hired to originally write for. It's how I, how I started here in the first place. That's Harper. It's our marketing library. Kind of a canva for broadband providers. Fiber Homes was our second. My husband helped build that. He works with us now. And that one exists to kind of bridge this gap we see between the broadband industry and the real estate industry so that home buyers actually know their Internet options before they buy a home, which you would think is a problem that has been solved ages ago and it has not. So. And then Fiber Gaming Network is the one we're launching now and that actually helps Internet providers better understand, reach and serve the video gamers in their Market. So three very different platforms, but all for the Internet industry.

Okay, so you read the very first draft of my next book, the Sacredness of Secular Work, almost a year ago, by the way, which is crazy. And as you know, in that book I talk about our work having both instrumental and intrinsic value. Right? So instrumental value is I go to work so that I could leverage my job to the instrumental end of evangelism or making money to donate to my church. Good things, right? Instrumental value. Yes, 100%. The sad part is most Christians, most mere Christians, only see instrumental value in their work. And thus 99% of their time at work is totally meaningless. They believe in the grand scheme of eternity. That's not what we see in Scripture. Scripture, we see that God has given us intrinsic value in our work because it's what he made us to do in Genesis 1. It's what he redeemed us to do. See Ephesians 2. It's what we're going to be doing for eternity. See Isaiah 65. So for you, what intrinsic value is there in marketing broadband Internet? Right? Like, this is like so technical. Like, why do you think that work matters to God?

Yeah, so my answer's kind of got two layers because I think the work of marketing broadband has intrinsic value, which is what I'm helping my clients do. And then I think my work of supporting them has intrinsic value. So the first part, the companies we serve all sell fiber Internet, which I won't bore you with the specifics, but it's just the very best, very, you know, the most reliable, the fastest Internet you can get that exists. And they sell it in areas where the other options, typically from those national companies, are nowhere near as good. But they're smaller companies and they don't always have the resources in house to market themselves effectively. But the people, the everyday Americans in their markets, in their service areas, desperately need good Internet. And of course they want it from a company that cares about them that they can call when there's an outage and actually reach someone. I think we all want that with these services we rely on. And so I just think that there is an intrinsic value in providing Internet for school and work and connection. And these companies do that and we're able to, to connect them to their audience. And in many cases, the people who live in these towns, when they find out that there's a Internet provider bringing fiber Internet, they feel seen and valued in a brand new way. Because up until that point, they think the national companies didn't see my town as worth their time or money, but this company did. And it infuses a sense of pride and value in a community. And I think that really matters. And so because I. Their work communicates to their audience. You matter. And I hope that my work communicates to the broadband provider and the broadband marketer. You matter, you know, and I'm just playing a small part in helping them serve their communities.

That's really, really good. Yeah. You're creating a sense of feeling seen, a sense of belonging. And you're taking, let's not forget, you're taking the raw materials of this earth that God gave us in Genesis 1 and making this world more useful for other human beings. Benefit and enjoyment. That's a good thing. It's what he made us to do, right?

Yeah, absolutely.

But your job also has great instrumental value, Right. One of the cases, as you know, that I'm making in this book is that ironically, when we treat the Great Commission as the only commission, we become less effective at the Great Commission because it makes mere Christians feel like JV Christians, makes them feel guilty about going into the very places most likely to make disciples of Jesus Christ. Have you found business to be a particularly effective place to make disciples in this post Christian context? Because you've been on both sides of this. You've been in the mission field now you've been on Main street, if you will, in the marketplace. Is this an effective place at this cultural moment to make disciples in your experience?

I would be hesitant to use the term making disciples, even though that is absolutely the phrase Jesus uses, because I don't ever want to view or treat the people I work with as projects that like, I don't lead a Bible study with for any of my co workers or anything like that, but what I am doing, in addition to praying for them and praying for their families, is I'm trying to just humble, present a better picture of what it means to be a follower of Jesus. And so by working in the workplace, I interact regularly with people whose impressions of Christians, and many times fairly so, are that we are not good thinkers, that we are extremely judgmental, we are going to beat you over the head, but not with the Bible, but rather a political opinion, unfortunately. And so when these topics come up, philosophy, politics, people's experiences in the church, typically negative, I'm able to speak up and present a different perspective and a really just practical example. Story here is I was reading the book Sacredness of Secular Work like you said, and I was learning, you know, from it about this full redemptive arc and the storyline of scripture. And while I was reading that, I got lunch with some cool co workers and I don't even remember why it came up, but we started talking about some of their experiences, negative experiences in churches and feeling judged by them and condemned to hell. And I was able to share, like, yeah, like that really gets under my skin that that was your experience because it's not reflective of the message I see in scripture. And it's so much bigger than just bringing the hammer down on you and your decisions. It's. There's this entire like story arc throughout all of the human history about God redeeming souls, but also just creation. And, and I was able to speak to some of that. And their eyes were, some of their eyes were kind of wide and. But one of them, who I would consider a friend and love dearly, she was like, man, Kaylee, I want to go to your church. And I just think, like, where would that conversation have gone had I not been sitting at this table? Like, what would have been said about churches? And then would it have just been left there? Like, what would they have walked away from that conversation thinking if there hadn't been someone at the table to present a different picture? And so that's really more of my, my approach, I guess, is I want to be someone who works well, who does the ministry of excellence, as you call it, and who thinks well about what I believe and why and the things I don't know. And then I want to love the people I work with and I just pray that those humble efforts will be seeds that I'm scattering and that it'll be up to God to give the growth, just like Paul talks about.

Amen. That's so well said. How do you think about this? I go out of my way. This book, 80% of it is, hey, your work matters. Beyond the Great Commission. Beyond the Great Commission. Beyond the Great Commission. But then at the very end I'm like, hey, but also we are called to the Great Commission, right? This is a non optional command for followers of Jesus, right? We are called to make disciples. How do you do that in a way to where people don't feel like they are salvation projects? How do you do it in a way to where. Because I think anytime you walk in the door with an agenda, you've lost, right? What does that look like for you? Like, how are you intentional about loving these people? Well, but not actually viewing them as salvation projects or being perceived as viewing them as salvation? Do you know what I'm saying?

Yeah, yeah, I Think of that. That story in the Bible where Jesus heals the blind man and the Pharisees come to question him.

I was just reading this this morning, so I love.

That's crazy. And Pharisees come to question him, and he basically. I'm paraphrasing, but basically says, I don't know what to tell you, man. Like, I was blind and now I'm not. It's not. You know, he's not there to, like, argue with them. He's just. This has been my experience. And when I was in. This is not a. An example from my current job, but when I was in college of my freshman year, I befriended a guy. His name is Aaron. And, I mean, I don't remember specific conversations, but I guess I just talked to him the way I would talk to any of my other friends. And what I didn't know at the time was that he was very much having kind of a crisis of faith where he didn't know where he was going to land. Like, he'd grown up in a Christian home. He wasn't sure, I guess, if he bought into it all. And years later, I mean, he. He did kind of dedicate his life to Christ. In college, he was very involved in the same college ministry as me. And I really don't think I knew what an impact I had had until after college. And he's now a pastor, and he was giving a sermon, and I listened to it online later, and he said that his freshman year he had a friend named Kaylee. And she. I don't remember exactly how he worded it, but how I remember it is I talked to him as if he were a Christian and just, like, shared what I was learning, shared what God was doing in my life, and that was it. And so. And. But it, like, sparked something in him, like, oh, this is different, or this is real to this person. And. And he was able to see, I guess, a different. A more authentic, maybe, view of the Christian walk. But I was just being myself and talking about, like, what I was learning and what the Lord was doing in my life. So I try to basically have that approach where when something comes up that touches on a spiritual topic or a religious opinion or something, to just be willing to say my experience and not try to connect the dots and, like, force them to a decision on it. But if I'm willing to just say my experience and my thoughts in the moment without then, like, shining a flashlight on them, like, what do you think about that? That hopefully over time, there will be a cumulative impact and that they will know. I hope that my team knows that if they ever have questions about the gospel, and I've told some of them this explicitly, and some of them I have not. But, you know, if they ever have questions about the Bible, like, I'm very comfortable talking about it. I hope they've seen. I'm very comfortable talking about my faith. And I hope they know I'm a safe place to, like, wrestle through those things with. But if they never come to me with them, I still love them and I still pray for them. And I hope that ultimately they just experience God's love for them in whatever way. God is going to show his love for them and not make it about me. Right.

But it's realizing that you don't have to quote, unquote, save souls, as if any human being could do that. P.S. right. In order for your work to matter to God, all of it matters to God. And that allows you to just show up and be a different kind of worker, a more excellent, more loving worker, and just do your job really, really well. And trust that the Lord will open up doors whenever he sees fit to have those explicit conversations. But even if he doesn't bless it be the name of the Lord, like he will. We can't open up doors for the gospel. We want to pry open these doors. We want to microwave people into belief in Jesus Christ. Right. We're just called to be faithful, called to show up and be obedient to Jesus Christ in everything that we do. That's it. And trust the results to God, right?

Yeah. And I think another danger of approaching work as just like a place to win souls is that there's a danger that the Christian starts to think that their only value to God is bringing other people to him. And they, like, lose this understanding that God loves them, that God wants to do the work with them. My pastor in Memphis, who you quoted in one of your books, Ken and Vaughn, I was listening to one of his sermons online recently, and he told this story that just illustrated this so well, about how he asked his sons, he's got five boys. And he asked his sons, hey, would you guys stack this? I guess it was a big pile of firewood, and he wanted to stack it up to get ready for. For winter. And they said, well, can you do it with us, dad? And he said, I can't right now. I've got to go prepare this sermon and. But I'll be back later. Like, I just need you guys to pitch in and help out. And so stack this Firewood. And they kind of drag their feet and they walk over, you know, to stack the firewood. He leaves, he works on the sermon. He comes home, and they're almost done, but not quite, and they're lagging. You know, they're kind of dragging their feet on it. And he says, all right, guys, come on, let's rally. Let's get this job done. And they perked up and they said, can you do it with us now, dad? And he said, yes, I can. And he said they were just, you know, their entire demeanor changed. They. They were grabbing wood, and they were talking to me and laughing and. Because they were excited to do do it in relationship. And I think that's such a beautiful picture of what God wants with us. He's not just asking us to bring him firewood. And that's like, the end of why he's put us in a job. Like, he has put us in a job so that we can experience his love for us and work in community and relationship with him. And, yeah, I just. I hate to see Christians miss that.

Work is just another canvas for him to be with us. Right. I think about my friend Sky Jatani's quote all the time. God does not need us. He wants us. Right? And, like, realizing that changes everything. Because guess what? You can experience his longing for you while making a latte, while marketing broadband Internet, while being on the mission field, while record wherever, because he is with you wherever you go.

Yeah, exactly.

Hey, let's shift gears for a second. So I want to talk about how your faith is shaping how you do the work day to day, because listen through God's common grace. I've been writing a lot about this lately. There is going to be a lot of overlap in the way a Christian and a non Christian markets broadband Internet. Right. But what is different? Like, what do you think would be different about your work if you are not apprenticing under Jesus Christ?

Yeah, great question. I don't even know if I would have been able to answer this, except that a few months ago, I was at a conference earlier this year, an industry conference, and I met someone and I explained what we do, and he cracked a joke, and he said, hey, what's the difference between a marketer and a salesperson? A salesperson knows they're lying to you. And I laughed, but I thought, oh, man, is that the. Like, there's this perspective that marketers are all talk, no substance. They're just trying to drive a sale, and they'll say whatever they need to say. And I Think maybe that's why. Maybe my Christian faith is why I have been so drawn to content marketing as a concept, which is this idea that you put out legitimate value to your audience for free in a variety of formats and ways so that you can earn their trust over time and ultimately their business. It's a way that serves your industry and serves your audience, knowing that if you do that well, it will lead to sales. And so I consider myself a content marketer. I carry that perspective into the way I market our platforms. I try to serve our industry well. But then I think we also carry that perspective into our platforms and equip the Internet providers to use that same mindset and serve their communities well. So in Harper, our marketing library, we don't just have marketing campaigns, billboard designs, direct mail pieces. We also provide explainer videos and articles, educational articles that answer common questions so they can serve their, you know, their audience in that way or at a maybe a little bit more of an abstract level, fiber gaming network that we're launching right now. We could just tell them, give them some ads and tell them how to run ads to reach gamers. But what we're trying to do is explain to our industry, like, the gamers in your market have value as humans, as customers. Like, here are ways that you can let them know you see that value, provide value to them through the programs that FGN has, and then ultimately you're going to earn their respect and their business. So I think that is. It's certainly not the case that Christians have the corner on content marketing, but I think that heart for people is what has led me to really love that approach.

I love that so much. I think about this a lot in my own marketing. I think about Matthew 20:28. Right. Even the son of man came not to be served, but to serve. I want to serve even when I'm selling something. Right. My friend Graham Cochran, who's a really prolific YouTuber and online course creator, is like, so good at this. Like, any email you get from Graham, even if he's pitching you a course, you will learn something enormously valuable. And I just think it's a really, really beautiful way to approach marketing. Hey, I'm curious. You're a pretty ambitious person. I'm curious that the gospel shapes how you think about how much you work because you also have a young son, you have a husband. Have you thought about how your faith shapes how much time you spend at the office?

Only once every 10 minutes for all of my life, yeah. This is, I mean, a huge thing I think about. And one of my favorite verses in the Bible is when I think it's Paul, I don't have the verse in front of me. I think it's a let in one of his letters to the Thessalonian Church where he says basically that godly ambition is to. And you think like, oh, here it is. Define it for me. Yeah, I am ambitious, so please define for me what godly ambition is. And it's like to live quietly basically mind your own business and work with your hands, like, do your job. And that is such a freeing thing to me. First of all, that like godly ambition has nothing to do with particular outcomes, but just like mind your own business. And I'm a little sassier maybe than Paul was. But like mind your own business.

He's pretty sassy.

You know, just do your job and do it well and do it quietly and like, don't try to draw a bunch of attention to yourself in the process. And so that is part of what shapes my perspective on ambition in general. But I would say in terms of being a mom, I mean, I could do an entire additional interview on this topic. But something that has been really helpful for me actually is that my boss, one of the founders of DX Tell, he's older than me, but he had kids later. So his kids are in the same season of life and which means he's kind of in the same season of life as me. And he models it well for me. I think, like he and his wife prioritizes kids. You know, he will take off at 3 to go get them. He will tell me he can't help right now because he's at their practice or whatever. And I feel freedom to do that and then model that for the rest of my team as well. And having a healthy work life balance so that they know they can too. Because when he models it well, that puts me at ease. Specifically how I do that has evolved over time. One of the most transformative things I did for our family was this spring I took email off my phone. I mean, just, I don't even think my team has noticed. Which is funny because I thought the whole world would fall apart if I like didn't get an email in 30 seconds. But I don't even think they know unless I've told them. But I quit checking emails outside of working hours. I don't check work emails on the weekend. I do not work on the weekend unless I really have to. And that is very rare. So those are just practically like the boundaries I Have set. But yeah, it's a, it's a really important topic that I think about a lot.

Yeah, I love it. And that modeling is really important. It's a way of serving your team. For example, I think Sabbath is a way that I. My Sabbath is a way that I serve my team because they know, hey, you're not getting emails from me or anything productive for these 24 hours. And it frees them to do that same thing. Hey, you are a vocational small group leader in my mere Christians community and I talk a lot about this in the community. This is not a replacement for the local church. Right. But I really do believe that good vocational discipleship happens in groups like these with other mere Christians who are thinking deeply about how the Gospel shapes their work. Can you share a story or two without names or just a little bit about what, what you've seen the Lord do in and through your small group? And this is not a pitch for my community. I hope listeners, if you want to be in the mirror Christian community, great. But I just hope you're in any small group with other like minded mere Christians. Talk a little bit, Kaylee, about the impact you've seen in those groups.

I feel like my answer to this is really quite simple. First, it has broadened my perspective in a really healthy way. I think anytime, and this is probably true for a lot of people in your community or in your audience listening anytime you care a lot about your work. It can be very easy to get in this bubble and forget about the world beyond what you do and what you touch. And so on a regular basis, every other week, to be in a zoom room with a mom, I think she's in the Coast Guard, an IT specialist in a public school in New Hampshire, A young woman doing marketing for a hotel. A young woman in California working remotely for a global company and trying to think through how to build community on a remote team. Like being in a room with a virtual room with people who have their own worlds that they are serving and their own questions just kind of get me out of my own head a little bit and remind me like I am part of a bigger kingdom, a bigger church community and we're all in these different pockets of the world with the same heart to serve Jesus. And it just I think lightens my load a little bit. Like the world is not as small as just the work I'm doing today. Like the Lord is using all kinds of people right now and all these corners of the country. And I know that because I get to know them and then there's also just like, when you're in church. And I agree it's not a replacement for church, but when you're in church, you know, sometimes you'll hear just a quick line on a Sunday morning from the sermon, and that will continue to pop up in your. Your mind as you go about your week. I have very similar experiences out of conversations in our vocational small group. The one that has stuck with me the longest is a guy one time shared. This is not a Bible verse or anything like that, but he was. We were talking about frustrations, I guess, thorns and thistles, you know, in the workplace. And he said something he and his wife say to remind themselves is the problem, is the reason we have the job, like, when there is a problem. And I think the example he was giving was that his wife serves with, like, the special needs community in schools, like, with IEPs. That world is not something I'm very familiar with. But he was saying, like, she will get really frustrated by the brokenness in the system and that she has to remind herself, like, the brokenness is the reason, like, I have a job is what. It's what I'm here to do, to serve and to fix. And so I have repeated that to myself so many times when little problems are irritating me at work. This problem is the reason my job exists. Like, I'm here to serve in this problem. So just little things like that that provide me with fresh perspective.

That's good. One more thing I want to touch on before we get to our final three questions. You and I recently connected over our shared love of Fred Rogers. We've both watched the documentary, read at least one bio on him. I think I've read all eight biographies on Fred. Now, what's one takeaway from the life of Mr. Rogers that is really impacted how you think about your own work as a mere Christian today?

Well, I should start by saying that one of my favorite compliments that I ever heard my husband give me to someone else was he said, she is like a freight train. And like, I by nature am all gas, no breaks. And it means I get a lot done. It's that ambition, right? You know, I'm. I'm very efficient. And in your interview of Max King, who is one of Fred Rogers biographers, he said that the message of Fred Rogers to him, and I would agree with this, was simply slow down, be kind. And I've seen that in the books and the movie and the documentary that Fred Rogers was intensely present with the princess person in front of him. And I certainly don't do this perfectly, but this is something throughout this year that I've been trying to keep at the front of my mind. Don't multitask in meetings. Don't multitask on calls. Like, schedule out time to work and don't take calls during that time and then schedule out time to meet and don't do work during that time so that I can strive to be countercultural in just how present I am with people.

Yes. Oh, my gosh. So there's some wild stories about Fred. Many, many, many testimonies. Like, when you got into his presence, it was like time stood still because he was so focused on you. And I got this incredible compliment the other day. I'm so proud of myself becoming a little bit more like Fred, and hopefully by way of Fred Jesus. I was at this redeeming your time retreat that we just did, and the worship leader from my local church came and let worship for us. And I saw him later on that night at church, and he's like, dude, when you are in a conversation with somebody, you don't see anybody in the periphery. You are like, it's almost like, too intense. And, like, it probably is too intense. It probably weirds people out, right? But, like, I'm like, maintain eye contact the whole time. But I do believe, believe that our fully engaged uni presence, as I say in that book, is a gift. It's a way of loving that person as ourselves say you are. The most important thing in my life in this moment is just being fully engaged here. And, oh, by the way, when I'm not in a conversation with somebody, that applies to the work I'm doing at my desk in preparing for this podcast, I'm fully focused on because I think it's a way of loving you listeners. So I love that you've taken that away from Fred. What's been practically helpful for you to be more fully engaged, obviously. Like, do not disturb on your phone. Like, what else is helping you be fully engaged with the people in your life?

I think you already know this about me, but I'm like a big cheerleader for redeeming your time, your book. And so I love my commitment tracking system. I love pulling emails out of my inbox, putting them in my to do list on my commitment tracking system, archiving them. So I'm at inbox zero and blocking out time on my calendar in general. This is a deep work block. This is shallow work and calls. And then when I'm feeling overwhelmed, actually saying, okay, this deep work block is going to be for this video script I have to write or whatever. And having an easy way to look at my commitment tracking system and say, this is everything on my plate, first of all, removes that sense of panic of like, there's so much I'm forgetting something, I'm going to forget something. I'm going to drop a ball. It's here is everything I have to do. If I'm worried about it, I'm going to put it right now on a calendar block and I'm going to know that I can't schedule a call during that time because that's how I'm going to get this responsibility done. And I think that combination of pulling my inbox into my commitment tracking system, blocking out my calendar scheduling when I'm going to do what makes me less anxious, which then makes it easier for me to be present because I'm remembering I know when I'm gonna do the rest. I've already decided that. So right now I can be here.

Yes, that's exactly it. I love that so much. All right, Kaylee, which books do you recommend or gift most frequently? And please don't say a Jordan Rayner book. We've had way too much self promotion on this podcast. We gotta steer away from me. What are you gifting most frequently to others?

Okay, so in my broadband world, this is not a broadband book, but I guess my marketing world, the book I recommend the most there is Building a Story Brand by Donald Miller. He just has a great approach to brand messaging and I've recommended that and followed that for years now. This year I have found myself recommending Ashley Gad's new book. Are you familiar with her? She does the coffee and crumbs. I love her. She has built a platform kind of serving moms and encouraging them to create anyway, which is the name of the book from this year, Create Anyway.

Oh, I just connected with Ashley, I think via email.

Oh, really?

Yeah, I know who Ashley is.

Yeah, yeah. So I've never met her personally, but I will say she's got a large platform and anytime I have replied to one of her, like, email newsletters, she always replies. So I feel like I know her. I just think she serves her audience really well. But anyway, I have recommended that book over a lot this year to moms who are either trying to work or to create in the margins. I think she does a good job of making making moms in particular feel valued. And she does this her entire platform. Does a really good job of saying your work as a mom really matters. And your work outside of being a mom really matters. So I love her work.

So good. I love that. Hey, who do you want to hear on this podcast?

Okay. I have thought about my answer to this question, Jordan, for as long as I have been listening to your podcast, which is a really long time. And I have gone through so many iterations of how I would answer it. And so I got it down to two people. I hope that's okay.

Give me as many names as you want.

One person is someone I know personally. That is Dr. Troy, Kevin Troy. He was a professor of mine at Furman. I had him my freshman year. And he. He's just fascinating. He was the chair of the computer science department at a non Christian college. But the freshman seminar he taught that I took was on the life and works of C.S. lewis. And he taught Sunday school. I mean, he still does all of this, as far as I know, but teaches Sunday school at church. He's very involved with community theater, and so he directs children's programs, he acts and adult programs. And then he also coaches youth swim teams and, like, really invests in kids that way. And he cares for people so well. And I am confident I am one of a very long list of people who have benefited from that. And I just have no idea how he does it all. And I would love to hear him explain how he carries, like, that ministry of excellence and that Christian perspective into so many corners and then does it so well.

I love it. It's a great answer.

Yeah. And I asked his permission to recommend him, so I. And he said that was fine. So I'll have to make an introduction, but I cannot make an introduction to my second person. Do you know what Beth Moore's husband does by chance?

No.

He is a plumber.

Oh, my gosh. Mr. Moore, send out the bat signal.

And I have never heard him talk about it. I've never heard him talk anywhere. And I don't know if he would even want to or be willing, but, man, like, what that would do for women in ministry, women in careers, any human in any career that's not ministry. To hear his story of being married to, like, the most famous woman in women's ministry and being a plumber, I just. I love that fact and I want the story.

So. All right, I'm going to get some hate mail from listeners now. So Beth got pitched to come out of the Mere Christians podcast when she was releasing her new book. Man, I protect you all this audience, really, really tightly. Right. And I protect the show. This show is about how does the gospel shape the work we do in the world? I love Beth Moore. I loved that book. And I just didn't feel like the book was very relevant to this conversation. And so it was the hardest no I've ever given because I'm such a Beth Moore fan. But this is the perfect solution. Keith Moore, the plumber, coming on the Mere Christians podcast, Lord willing, very soon. Gosh, that's a great. Thank you for uncovering that little nugget for me, Kaylee.

Yeah, I don't remember where I learned it, but it definitely stuck with me.

All right. Hey, Kaylee, before we sign off, you're talking to this global audience of your Christians, very diverse, vocationally. What's one thing you want to reiterate to our listeners before we sign off today?

I would want them to know if God wanted you to be somewhere else, you would be somewhere else. Unless you have been actively avoiding God. Like he has called you to Nineveh and you're running from it and you know it. Unless that's the case, if you're walking with him and surrendered to him, he has you where you are on purpose. And every calling we have is first and foremost a calling for you to know and experience him and his love for you. So if you are not sure why you're called to where you are, I would encourage you to start by just asking him to show you how he's calling you to himself from where you are.

So good. So, so, so good. Kaylee, my friend, I want to commend you for the extraordinary work you do for the glory of God and the good of others, for reminding us that every Christian's on Team Varsity, right? Mere Christians are on Team Varsity just as much as pastors and donor supported missionaries, as important as those roles are. And thank you for reminding us that, yeah, if God wanted us somewhere else, he would put us somewhere else. Hey, where's the best place for people to connect with you if they want to learn more about you and your work? Is it LinkedIn?

Yeah, probably. I mean, you're going to see a lot of posts about marketing in the broadband industry, because that's where I try to serve that. That group. But yes, absolutely. Welcome to Connect with me on LinkedIn. It's. Well, Kaylee Cox.

Yeah, there you go. Kayleigh, thanks for hanging with us today.

Thanks so much for having me.

That was one of my favorite episodes we've done in a while. Loved it. I hope you guys did, too. Hey, if you did, do me a favor, will you please take 30 seconds and go. Leave a rating of this show 1 to 5 stars on Apple Spotify. Wherever you listen to the podcast, you'd be shocked at how meaningful those ratings and reviews are to help others find the program. And also they're a great encouragement to my team. My team reads every single one of those reviews. They're a massive encouragement to us to keep doing this important work. Thank you guys so much for tuning in this week. I'll see you next time.

Foreign.

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