Kara Holden (Writer of Disney+’s Clouds)

The episode you're about to listen to was released back when the Mere Christians podcast was called the Call to Mastery. Now, if you love Mere Christians, you're still going to love these older episodes because the majority of each conversation focuses on how the gospel influences the work of our guests. With that disclaimer out of the way, please enjoy the episode. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I'm Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. Every week, I host a conversation with a Christian who's pursuing world class mastery of their vocation. We talk about their path to mastery, their daily habits, and how their faith influences their work. I'm super excited about this week's guest. Her name is Cara Holden and you may know her work. She's the writer of Clouds, the second original movie from Disney, second only behind, wait for it, my beloved Hamilton. Kara has been listening to the Call to Mastery for a while. She reached out to see if we'd be interested in having her on and I was like, are you kidding me? Of course we want you on the show. She's an exceptional writer. Before selling this movie to Disney plus, Kara wrote or acted on Gilmore Girls, Saved by the Bell, Soul Surfer, Clueless. Yeah, fans of the 90s, you're gonna be a big fan of Kara's IMDb page. So Kara and I recently sat down. We talked about why Bob Iger was personally so adamant about distributing this movie, Clouds. We talked about the significance of Jesus as, quote, the God who tells stories. And we talked about why you should always take a glass of water if it's offered to you in an interview. Really practical advice here for all of you looking for jobs right now. I think you're really going to love this episode with my friend Carol Holden. Carol Holden, longtime listener, first time caller. Thanks for being here.

That's what I say. Listen to our first time caller. I'm super excited.

Oh, this is awesome. I'm so glad that we connected. You emailed me, I don't know, a couple months ago.

Yeah.

And we're like, hey, I've been listening to the show. I wrote this little movie for Disney plus, you know, if you ever want to chat, I'm like, yes, of course I want to chat. I want you on the show. So I'm curious, has there been an episode of the Call to Mastery that you particularly loved so far?

Oh, I absolutely loved the one on Wonder with the Illusionist, who I now know the difference between illusion and Magic.

That was a great episode.

I've always loved it. I went. There's a place called the Magic Castle in Los Angeles that's like, you have to know someone to get. You have to know a magician to get in. And I remember it being one of the most like mind blowing, amazing things I've ever done. So I'm a fan. But I really loved his take on. On Wonder.

So Arrested Development. This isn't fake. There's like an underground network of magicians working in laugh. That's amazing.

It's real and like you have to do like a secret word to get in and it's like very. It's fun, it's cool, it's exciting and very secretive. But I love.

So the next time we're in LA together, let's. I want to go to the secret. The Secret Magic Club. This sounds amazing.

You have to. You have to see it. I went years ago and I'll never forget it. I also was an assistant for David Copperfield on stage in Vegas once. So. What? That's amazing.

That's really funny. So you just launched this massive movie with Disney, right? We're going to come back to that in a minute. I got lots of questions, but first let's go back to the beginning or near beginning of your professional story. You got a degree in biology. I did. From the University of Louisville, yes. And then moved to LA to write for TV and films. How did this happen?

Well, I wanted to be practical. I have loved movies, acting, writing since I was very young. All of my. All my best memories growing up were movies. And I think it's because I moved a lot and I felt like the characters sort of became my friends, you know, because I. We moved a lot and there was something about movies, there was something about stories. I read a lot. I love to write. I started keeping a journal when I think I was seven or six and I would write movie reviews in them.

That's amazing. That's amazing. Do you remember, do you remember one of your most scathing reviews?

Oh, I didn't have scathing. I very rarely. I think I loved everything. But I remember. I think I remember my greatest, like my. A review which went to. Was it Sheena, Queen of the Jungle? I don't remember. But it was about a superhero who could talk to like animals and it was just. I just remember. It really amazed me. But then after that, I mean, my, my favorite movie. That's still. I would say it's not my favorite movie of all time, but my. But one that first Told me the power of movies was Footloose. And I saw it in the theater and I was like, this one guy made a difference to like the entire town, you know, and he did it in a way that just changed people's hearts and minds. And I just thought, oh my gosh, that's what a movie can do to you. That's incredible. I want to do that. So. But yes, I majored in biology because I thought for a long time as a kid too, I wanted to do genetics. I thought I'd be a doctor. I had a friend who had cystic fibrosis and I just wanted to find a cure. So I went through pre med, I graduated biology, pre med. And. But I just, I just wasn't built for it. And truthfully, the reason was, was because deep in my heart, since I was very young, I knew I wanted to be a part of film. And so right before spring break in my senior year, I found a book. I had applied actually to USC and to UCLA for their writing programs. And I didn't get into either. I had only because I majored in biology. I had taken creative writing classes and I had a couple samples to send in, but they were mostly sort of a couple short stories. I had never written a full script, so I didn't get in. I was kind of like, oh no, what does this mean? I thought I was supposed to go to la, like, what am I going to do? And I thought, well, I did do acting in high school. And so I got checked this book out of the library at college called Acting Is Everything. And in the back of the book there were two hundred and sixty names and addresses of every agent in Hollywood.

What a great book.

I know. So I was like, oh my gosh. So I wrote up this really. I mean, it's so embarrassing to think of now, but I think it did its job. I wrote up like a cover letter that was sort of like a personal ad, sort of like, you know, young Kentucky girl seeking long term relationship with, you know, whatever. And I, you know, had a little headshot taken and I sent out 260 of them and I got six calls. And so for spring break of senior year, I went out and interviewed with all six of those people. One of them turned out to be legitimate in a way that, you know, maybe they sort of. None of them were horrible. Some of them felt sketchy, like in an apartment kind of. And the one that I met, I was so startled, starstruck, because I love Wonder years.

Yeah.

And it was Marsha Hervey. Who was Jason Hervey? The big mean brother? It was his mom. And so she ran a talent. And they said, okay, like, you know, are you gonna move out here? And what do you want? And I said, yeah, I want to. I want to do this. And so I. Yeah, I. I moved out the day after graduation. And that was that. And that was that.

You started working pretty quickly, right? You were on Saved by the Bell. You. You step by step, Gilm. Yes. Then pivoted to writing.

So I forgot a step. I have a wonderful friend, a young life leader of mine, who was just. This is. He's this wonderful man named Bill McGee. And he had written a script. And there was a man who came to our church and now. Oh, I feel terrible. Okay. I told you I was bad at names. I need to look it up really quick. Okay. Anyway, his friend had written Braveheart.

Wow.

A friend through the church. And so then my friend Bill wrote a script and he said that he would help produce it. And so they had. This is my senior year of college, they had this open casting call to try and cast this. And there were 900 people who showed up. And there was an actual LA casting director there. And, you know, when I went in the room and this is it. Weird thing, but apparently it meant something to them. I was the only person who took a glass of water when it was offered. Yeah. So like, I. I guess I reached.

What does that indicate to them?

It indicated boldness of some sort. I don't know. So I reached for the water, I drank the water. So you always take the water, I guess. And they said, where do you see yourself in five years? And I was like, oh, I'll be in la and I'll be working in film and television. And they were like, oh, wow, okay. And so anyway, I got a call back and it's crazy cause the movie didn't end up going, which quite often they don't. Ye never a done deal until it's, you know, shooting. And so. But it gave me a connection to a casting director. It made me see that scripts are something that can be written. My friend wrote one. And so all of these things helped me think like another. Gave me the confidence to just do it and go to la. And I remember there was. There was one more scripture that I just thought was incredible because I read it like right as I was trying to decide to go. And it still sticks with me sometimes. It makes me laugh. And it's in Isaiah 58, I think. And it was, the Lord will guide you always. And Will satisfy your needs In a sun scorched land. I was like, oh, what could be more sun scorched than la? And you will be like a well watered garden Like a spring whose waters never fail. And for me, sometimes when I'm having writer's block, I think, nope, there's a spring whose waters never fail. Those words will come. Yeah. And so that's how. And then I got out there. So, yeah, the first week I moved out there. It doesn't happen like this, just so people know. Usually, I don't know, it was. It was kind of crazy because my agents, who Marcia Hervey and Pamela Grimes, they, you know, started sending me out like crazy. And so I went. They said, you can line dance, right? You're from Kentucky, right? Yeah, of course, of course. No, I didn't. But I kind of didn't lie because I had done it once. So I thought, okay, I can learn fast. I'm not lying. But I also am not really a line dancer. So I had a girlfriend from Texas who I just had met in la and so she spent the entire night teaching me how to line dance. And so I got on this show that was a soap opera called Sunset beach. And that got me in one union, which was aftra. And so sometimes naivety can work in your favor because I thought that was the union. So when I went in for an audition for the TV show Clueless and they asked, are you union? I said yes. So they gave me the role. And then afterwards found out that I was after not sag, which is Screen Actors Guild, which is a little bit harder to get into. And they had to immediately make me. They call it Taft Hartley. There's a special little loophole that if you get a job, then they make you it. Yeah, but it's hard. They don't normally do that. And. But it was. It was an innocent mistake. And so I got sag. Like the month I moved out there. I did my first two roles. But really, truly on that, Clueless was so cool because Amy Heckerling, who wrote the movie Clueless, came to set because her ex husband, who, Neil Israel, who was also this great director, we're doing this episode that I was shooting and I just was in awe because I remember the first time I saw Clueless in the theater and just being blown away by the writing of that thing. And so I told her and she was, you know, writers don't get a lot of attention in Hollywood, really. And so she was like, really amazed that I knew who she was kind of. And so that was a, that was a cool thing where another little thing in the back of my head like, ooh, oh, man, it could be cool. People do it. Look, she wrote this movie and like, you know, I started thinking, like, this is something I might like to try. So I had been getting a bunch of roles and every role that I got, I was grateful. They were, you know, it was cool. I got to work on a bunch of neat shows, but they were all just these jerk girls who were just vapid and mean and cheerleaders. I played a bunch of cheerleaders. I was never a cheerleader, but I had blonde hair, so I guess.

Right, right, right.

So I just was like, there has to be more. Aren't there any better roles for just like young women to play something, Something more interesting? And then I was like, well, maybe I'll write something. Yeah, and Sylvester St it with Rocky, right?

Yeah, that's exactly right.

And so I set about writing my first script. And this is a cool little side thing. I lived in this apartment in Beverly Hills and it was, you know, not super fancy or anything. There are parts of Beverly Hills that aren't crazy fancy, but it was, it was a nice little place. And my downstairs neighbor was this very dapper looking elderly man who always wore an ascot and was always carrying like a cigarette and a bottle of scotch out the door. And I was like, where is he go. Who is this person? So I made some cookies and I went downstairs and I knocked on his door and he goes, well, I can't. I don't know if I should talk. The way he, he was saucy. He was saucy. A saucy British man. And, you know, who is it? And I said, hi, I'm your upstairs neighbor. I just made you some cookies. And, you know, he opened the door and he said, oh, good. I didn't ever have the heart to tell the Jehovah's Witness to go to.

That's amazing.

And I thought, who is this man? Oh, my gosh, I love him already because he's just, you know, had this big personality. And he turned out to be an Oscar nominated writer named Ivan Moffat, who wrote the movie Giant.

Wow.

Oh, yeah.

That's incredible.

Yeah. And he was just. By the way, elderly people don't write them off. They've lived whole lives. Like, I volunteered at the Motion Picture and Television Fund, which is a place that people retire for retired people from the industry to go in Los Angeles. And I can't even tell you I've held an Oscar. I'VE met amazing pioneers of color film and just incredible people through that. And then Ivan, who was my actual neighbor, you know, I walked in his doors, and his entire apartment was filled with just books everywhere you could see, and then a tray table with a typewriter in the middle of it where he was writing still. And so how amazing is that? I was like, oh, I'm trying to write, you know, and he said it. It was a similar thing that he echoed. And he's like, don't try. Just write.

Yeah, I love that. So, I mean, there's so much wisdom, too, right, in just surrounding yourself with people who've already mastered the craft. It's a form of apprenticeship. Even if it's just showing up with cookies, you know, that's a form of humbly submitting yourself to other masters.

Absolutely. And I've done that, you know, time and again. I think that that is so important to really humbly, like you said, you know, put yourself at their feet and say, why? Can you teach me? And I did. I started going down to his apartment. He started reading my pages. We started talking character and, you know, and structure. And he was. He was brilliant, and he was patient. And, you know, I just. I'm so grateful for his presence in my life. So I ended up with that script that he helped. And actually, a friend of mine I had been working on that script with as well, my friend came to me one day that I had been writing the script with and said, I just got into the USC Masters, you know, writing program. And I was like, how? And he said, I just submitted our script. It's amazing. And I was like, what? So I called them and I was like, you know, how. How much longer are you taking applications? You just, you know, admitted my writing partner, and they're like, oh, today's the last day if you can make it down here. And luckily, I had taken the GRE because I thought I was going to be, you know, going into getting my PhD and back way back when, so it still counted. So, like, that day I ran to the school, I had all my records, and. And I turned in the same script. And so I got in after having been turned down years before, I got into the USC program. And that's where everything just. That's where everything happened, clicked, and I learned so much. Yeah, that's great.

So you're writing for years. Fast forward to today. You write this movie called Clouds, which Disney has picked up as their second original film behind only what, in Jordan's humble opinion, is the greatest piece of art ever made. Hamilton, I want to talk about the origin story of Clouds in a minute, but can you give us the. For those who haven't watched yet, give us the 30 to 60 second pitch on what the movie is about. What's the story?

Yeah. Clouds is a true story based on the life of Zach Sobiek, who was a teenager who had terminal cancer and discovers sort of what his purpose and passion is through music and writes this hit song called Clouds. That was the only song ever to hit number one, I think by an unsigned artist. I believe that could be a little wrong, but it was a very big deal. It hit number one. He was, you know, it was just an amazing viral story that many people might have heard of. I had heard of it before they approached me to write the adaption. And it's. Yeah, it's a really powerful story about purpose and making the most of every moment we have. I keep thinking of Dead Poets Society and that carpe diem idea of, you know, seize the day.

And Zach, I had never heard this story before, but it's a terrific movie, you know, and you and I talked about it.

You hadn't heard it. Oh, fascinating. Yeah, well, interesting.

Here's the deal. And my listeners, I've talked about this in a couple of episodes. I don't read the news at all, like almost zero. So I don't hear about stuff like this. Right. But it's a great movie and a little bit of a surprise for it to be on Disney. And this is a little bit older of a film. It's PG13. And when you and I talked a couple of months ago, you mentioned that Bob Iger had personally made the move to acquire this. And I don't. I can't remember if I mentioned this. I am a huge Bob Iger.

I get a good reason to be. You have good reason to be. Right.

I want every detail of the Bob Iger story.

Well, I don't know if I'm allowed to give it to you. Well, I do know that it was originally a Warner Brothers film. When I wrote it. We wrote it as a feature film for Warner Brothers and it was a big swing. Our executive over there was taking a risk because it also wasn't quite quite Warner Brothers material because it is this family film that is. Has faith elements and is, you know, this musical. When I very first was pitching it, I was saying it was Blindside Meets once. I don't know if you ever saw the movie, the musical once. So it was such a wild thing of sort of like inspiration and music and just very different. It didn't fit in a box. It didn't fit in a box. And people didn't even know what age it was. You know, we just knew that it had to be told. And at first the book is that it's sort of loose. I mean, it's based on his life. But then his mother, Laura Sobiek, wrote a wonderful book called Clouds, a memoir about her experience. So at first it seemed like it was gonna be from her point of view. And then, you know, in one of those moments where you have like a, aha, epiphany kind of moment, I felt Zach sort of amazingly when I was considering this thing, say, I want to tell my story. And I just knew it had to be from his point of view. So that then made it less from the family, like, grown up perspective. And suddenly it's teen, you know, his. His world. We still get the parents, we still get, you know, these, These other. The people in his life. But it's. It's focused on him, his arc, how he's feeling and what he's. How he's growing. But that said, like you said that it hits many different things. It's not quite in a box, but Warner Brothers took a great risk on it, I think, and a big swing and really believed in it, and it was really awesome to have them. And then sort of all the way through filming, we, you know, thought that it was still going to be doing that. Headed to theaters. And then the pandemic hit and everyone in Hollywood was like, oh, my gosh, what now? Like, scrambling, like the whole world, just, what does life look like now? And we were just so amazed that Justin Baldoni, the director, you know, had given a cut of it to Disney and Bob Iger, and they just, you know, he. He said, this is exactly the kind of film we want to be making for our. For Disney, you know, that it matters. It's. It's. It's a movie about family that inspires and that makes a difference. And that's what they really wanted to do. He was just very, you know, keen on it. And Warner Brothers, I think, thought it was a good idea as well. So they, you know, are the people. It's Warner Brothers Pictures. They produced it and then Disney then became the distributor. And I think it was just a genius thing to have happen because it actually is Disney is the audience that really can get behind this and that it could be so impactful for families. Teens, young, not too young of kids, but kids, we say sort of 12 and up. 13 and up. Yeah. Yeah.

Have you read Bob's autobiography, the Right of a Lifetime?

My husband did, though, and I know that he was very. And I remember him recounting some of the things in it that he was so impressed.

Yeah. Like, business autobiographies typically aren't my thing. The exceptions are the Rite of a Lifetime by Bob Iger and Shoe Dog by Phil Knight. But Iger's book, it's phenomenal. I always recommend Disney War, which is the biography written about Eisner's tenure as CEO and then kind of Iger. But it's interesting. Iger hates that book. Like, they're, like, very publicly opposed to that book. So reading both together is. Is a lot of fun.

Really interesting.

It's really good.

Yeah. I think that he is incredibly brilliant and smart to make that choice.

Of course you do. Of course you do.

I feel very lucky.

Carrie, you've clearly earned your stripes as a writer. One thing that you can point to, you can. I'm gonna. I'm gonna hold you to one as the key to mastering this craft. There's somebody in the audience like, man, I want to write a movie. What is the key to making this all happen?

One thing. How dare you? Well, what is that? Abc. Always be closing. It's abw. Always be writing. The more you write, the more you learn. Well. Oh, but also, always be reading. You have to. You have to read scripts. If you want to write scripts, you have to read scripts, and you have to write them. And the more you write, the better you get. It's that thing. You know, I've heard you guys talk about it. The 10,000 hours. It's just a real thing. Just, you know, continually growing. Writing, just doing the thing is so important. I.

Reading is so critical.

It is.

I would wrap reading into writing. To me, they're one and the same. Like, you can't write unless you are reading.

Absolutely, absolutely. So get your hands on as many scripts. There's a lot online. It's so eye opening to see how scripts are written, how a voice can come through, you know, how the dialogue is. It's just really, really important. I actually teach a screenwriting class from time to time at the University of Louisville. And that's. I. Yes, I.

And it's. It's the same thing with any discipline. Right. If you're writing books. Like, I read a ton of nonfiction, because I write nonfiction. Yeah. I'm building business, so I study lots of businesses. Right. Yes, it is. Knowing what the existing boundaries of an art form are so that you can.

And see who's doing it well and see when it's not done well and why that's important. You know, you can. To get a sense of what doesn't work and be okay with that happening in your own writing. You're going to start out and it's going to be bumpy. And, you know, I can't. I can't say the word again on this, but my mentor at USC was a man named Syd Field, who wrote a book called Screenplay, which I think is still the best book about writing screenplays. And Syd Field, he would say, you know, one of the biggest things is to make sure you allow your first draft to be just crap. Yeah. Because then you don't get too precious. You realize it's work and just get to work. Just do it. Get it out on the page, and then you can go back and refine and refine and refine. And that's what writing is about. And so.

Exactly.

Right.

First drafts are never final drafts, ever.

And I think people can get discouraged sometimes, you know, or think that this is it, I've done it, you know, and no, by the way, from a working writer, the script is never done. I am on the set writing as the actors are saying words and saying. It's, it's, it's, it's. So, yeah, just, just, just humbly work at that craft as. As much as you can. You know, it's. It is. It is wild how that cuts across so many different, you know, disciplines.

So, yeah, you've got a lot. You got a lot going on. You get this movie coming out. You also have. You have one kid? Two kids.

I have two. I have two.

Two kids. Okay. You got a lot going on. So what does your day look like from the moment you get up to the moment you go to bed? What is it? What does the day in the life of Carol Holden look like?

Well, it looks like I wish I were more disciplined than I am. So it can be different on different days. I do have an office out of the house in the back of a general store that I go to. I love it so much. A little quiet space that I can go and look at some trees and be quiet. And it's important for my writing. I used to sort of try to work from home, and I would hear my kids giggling, and I'd be like, oh, no, I want to be there. What is making them laugh? Or, you know, if they cried, why are they crying? So, yeah, it's good for me to be here. So I will, you know, get up, play with the kids, get them ready. My son goes to four sets school. He's, he's in kindergarten and so his is outdoor. So it's still happening right now, which is nice. And then I do have a just amazing, lovely, wonderful nanny who comes around 9:30 and then I get myself ready and get to the office around 10 and then I do some emails and things and try and get that all out of the way. Eat some lunch and it sounds like such a crazy day. But my, you know, turn off everything and just write is usually from about 12:30 to 5:30.

Yeah.

And But I'm gonna say the caveat is when I sometimes when I getting started and sometimes when I'm finishing I will go to take two days and go to retreat centers and where there is nothing and it's a cabin and like not even Internet and I will just, just really get into it. So I do have the day to day work but usually even I'm really first getting into a script and when I'm first trying to sort of finish up the whole thing, I will take a couple days and I'll work 14, 16 hours.

It's the grand gesture, right? The magic of the grand gesture. And invest time, sometimes money.

That's such a good way to put it.

Yeah. It increases the perceived importance of the task. By the way, this isn't me. This is all Cal Newport.

I never knew why I did it before. I just know that it works. Works.

But that's, but, but does that make sense?

Yes, yes. You invest.

It's a big deal.

This is a big deal. This is, yes, this, this is a new thing and let me immerse myself in it and then get to the day to day work of it. But that's really fascinating I think because yes, I've always done that too. I've always done that from the beginning of my career. And I used to get kind of annoyed at like why can't I just do the day to day like everyone else does? Why do I need these sort of special sort of, of beginning moments? But I guess that's it. I need a grand gesture. That's just how I get focused. Yeah.

Especially, especially for creative people. Like, I'm actually not sure I've mentioned this on the podcast yet, but I wrote a children's book last year which is in production right now.

Oh my goodness.

Yeah. And it's, it's, I'm really proud of it. I, my agent said Congratulations, no offense, is the best thing you've written, even though it's 400 words. I tried not to take offense of that, but I wrote it on a plane ride to California.

It was.

And I didn't go to California to write a children's book, but I was saving up for weeks knowing that. Okay, my goal is going to be to get the first draft done on that.

That's incredible.

Yeah.

You know, it's so interesting. My favorite writer that I really look up to is Madeline l'. Engle. She wrote A Wrinkle in Time and many things that I really love. And she said that she did much of her writing on airplanes. I've never been able to because I'm not a great flyer, so I have to zone out to a bad movie, but I just love people who are able to get that in. And you. You and Maddalenko, she also. Many children's books. Fine.

That's fine company.

Yeah.

So as you know, this podcast about mastery, but it's also about how the faith of Christ followers shaped their work. I'm curious with Cloud, specifically.

Yes.

How did your faith inform your approach to that project?

Oh, it was, you know, it was the exact movie that I needed at a time when I needed it. It's really fascinating. There's something about my faith has changed and grown and, you know, done many things over the years. As I said, I had sort of an evangelical youth kind of the idea of, well, I don't want to be disparaging at all, but I did, I guess, in my own mind, have a sort of name it, claim it mentality.

Yeah.

Yeah. And as I grew older and saw things happening that didn't make sense in that sort of world where, you know, you pray for something and it doesn't happen, and what does that look like and why, and does that mean I did something wrong? And, you know, for this. For me, this story of Zach was so beautiful and meeting his family because their faith was so apparent, they really and truly put themselves wholly in God's hands. And there. There was a line in there and in Laura's book that ended up sort of getting cut because the actual scene, if you. The scene in Lourdes where they go to take in the healing waters of Lourdes in France, the family, that was a real thing that they did. And her prayer was, you know, God, please heal my son, but if for some reason he dies, please let it be for something big. I mean, and this was in the process of her being there with her son and all of that, but still having this mindset Of God, you're in charge. And, you know, to let it, let it be for something big. I mean, that was just wild. And the idea that miracles look different than what we might expect, it might not be simple, but for them, you know, there was a miracle that happened. And for them, they also believe that, you know, everyone who prays for healing does ultimately get healed. They feel that Zach was healed in this. In the next life. And, gosh, I just needed. Because it's things that I grapple with in my own faith, those just basic questions. It's interesting how you never get to settle it. Right. I had more certainty when I was younger, and I remember hearing a quote by Billy Graham once, which was similar, where he said, when I was young, I could tell you the dimensions, the colors of heaven, what it would be and how we would get that, you know, sort of every sort of specific with certitude. And now all I can say is, I know there is a heaven and I'm going to be there. And I loved that. And it's sort of how I feel about God, you know, like, I don't. I don't have all the certitude about all of these things that I might have once had. So for me, my faith, I would say it allowed me to have those doubts and have those questions and put it on the page and sort of wrestle with myself through the writing of the script. And it was beautiful because I think God showed up. Yeah.

You mentioned before the film is based on this memoir.

Right.

Written by Zach's mom, which is more faith forward than the film. Right. The memoir is much more faithful.

So I'm curious.

How did you. And you mentioned a particular line being cut from the film. How did you think about how large a role the character's face should play in the film?

Film?

And how did that, you know, were you satisfied with where it landed?

I absolutely was. Yeah.

I.

You know why? Because there are certain touch words in Christianity that can feel very exclusive. And we wanted this to be an inclusive film. We wanted Zach's story to be able to impress, inspire, and make a difference in a lot of as many lives as possible. And I knew growing up from just growing up as sort of, you know, being a young life leader and sort of the words that you say can sometimes turn people off immediately. Right? Yeah. And so I wanted to let action speak louder than words. I wanted to show the family showing up for each other, show them in their moments when they are praying. We don't have to hear the prayer to know it's happening and so that it could be sort of more impressed to. To a greater audience. I did want to make sure that it was a part of the movie because it was a part of their lives, like I said. But I didn't feel like. I feel like when it's. This is maybe controversial, when it's super genuine, when the faith is coming from a genuine place, especially in a film, it is apparent, even if you're not spelling it out. And I feel like a lot of times in Christian art in general, the difference between, like, I didn't. I don't like that term, even Christian art, because I feel like all beautiful, meaningful truth in art comes from God, you know, whether we know it or not, that he's able to use. I mean, I mean, look, he used a donkey, right? To speak to Baela. Anyone can be used. You don't have to be this great pillar of faith yourself even to have something true and meaningful spoken in the world. It's sort of the idea of the. The very rocks can cry out. So we don't have to try so hard to hit the message. If the message is true and in us, right? It comes out on the page, I think. And so I think it was. That's. That's how I approach writing in faith. It's sort of. It's why I. I wrote on a movie called Soul Surfer. And it was why they hired me as well. They wanted me to. I wrote because I was a youth leader. I wrote the youth leaders part in that, all the dialogue and stuff and between the kids and because, you know, there's a time when just being genuine, being honest about questions and difficult times. Zach did encounter fears and doubts and, you know, we wanted that in there. I didn't want him to be a saint. I wanted him to be real. Because God has made us with all these emotions that is real. And I think I like to see more of that, the full range of human expression. And if it's a film about faith, let's see it all. I mean, some have their own purpose. You know, you don't have to get gritty all the time. But it was important for this because it was a true story and we wanted to honor it and we wanted to honor Zach. And we did just want to be able to touch as many hearts and lives as possible. And we believed. Well, I. I believed that, you know, it's that kind of thing where, like, please just use the words. I don't let them. Let them touch who they're supposed to touch. Yeah.

I'm thinking about Fred Rogers, Mr. Rogers, who. Who believed that there's a great quote somewhere and I'm going to butcher it, but that the space between the television set and the kid is sacred ground. And that he would come to work never explicitly preaching the gospel, but showing it in incredibly powerful ways. And how he treated his neighbors.

Right.

As himself.

Yeah.

And trusted the Holy Spirit to translate that and to connect it to the true story, the true myth of Christianity, as Tolkien and Lewis used to say. He was big.

Yes, yes. The story, you know, there. The story itself, itself, you know, this arc that you're giving the audience, them seeing this sort of the purpose coming through. I love a quote from Adelaide Engel that says Jesus was God who told stories. I mean, that was another reason quite early on that I wanted to, you know, do that. That. That you can just. Through the. That we are made to recognize these, you know, what stories are and how it applies to our lives. And that's what's so beautiful about movies. And I love that you said that about Fred Rogers. That sacred space. I believe it like there is. You are. You're going into people's. Directly into their hearts, hopefully. And art does. Yeah. Yes, yes. And hopefully being able to make a difference and. And just shine that light. It's sort of, you know, I believe in. What is. Is that. Is that C.S. lewis? I believe in God as I believe in the sun. Not because I see it, but because I. I can see everything because I.

Can feel its warmth. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I think that's great in film. I love to see that in a film that. When it's. When it's just under the surface, because it's part of everything. It's a part of the fabric of the film itself. That's what their faith is. So while it wasn't explicitly for a Christian audience, and I mean, by the way, I love her book. She does get very into scriptures. The prayers she prayed for. This as a work of. It's not a documentary. There are things that we made to tailor it more to a feature film form so that it would give the most satisfying feel of a story. And the kind of story we're trying to tell.

I love it. And you guys told a heck of a story.

So thank you.

Kara, three questions. We love to wrap up every conversation with. Number one, which books do you recommend or gift most frequently to others?

Well, the book. I. There's a non. I mean, there's a fiction book. Yeah. That I just. That my friend Marty gave me And I can't stop giving it to other people. It's called the Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell.

Okay.

It is a science fiction, but it's one of the most heart wrenching, touching stories about what it means to be human and about the questions of faith and where is God and, oh, yeah, it's an incredible book. And then another one that I just love. Speaking of Madeline Engel, she wrote a book called Walking on Reflections on Faith and Art. And I quite often go back and reread that. Like, why am I. Why do I do what I do? And, you know, how do I. How do I do it to the best of my ability? And that book always inspires me.

Those are great answers.

Just one more just on the technical screenplay by Ziegfeld. So if anyone out there wants to learn how to write a screenplay, that's my favorite.

I love it. And you guys can find Those books@jordanrayner.com bookshelf hey, Care, who would you most like to hear maybe on this podcast talking about how their faith influences the work they do in the world?

Oh, I think I'm pretty sure he's a Christian. Ryan Tedder from One Republic.

Oh, yeah.

So I'm a. I love the show Songland. He's the kind of the main judge on it and everything. And I just, just always feel like he's so impressive about how he knows about writing songs and telling stories through his songs. And they actually just wrote an original song for Clouds. And I was thinking, oh, man, I want to know that guy. I want to hear more from him.

That's a great answer. I like that answer a lot.

Cool.

Yeah. Cool to find out about, right? All right, last question. One piece of advice to leave this audience with. Some of them want to write. Some of them want to build businesses. Some of them are going to work as teachers, as lawyers, whatever. What they share is they want to do great work for the glory of God and the good of others. What do you want to leave them with?

Well, I want to leave them with never be afraid to make big swings. I think I love the idea. I have a deep, dear friend who passed away. Who? His name is Marty Cobb. He used to always say, don't be afraid to be a fool for what you love. And I've always taken that on. I say, just go for it. Introduce yourself to the person. Humbly, of course. Make the gestures, you know, show up, make these big swings. And sometimes they don't work, but when they do, man, it's incredible when something goes. When you Hit it out of the park. It feels really good.

I love that. Don't be afraid to be a fool for what you love. That's really good. Hey, Kara, I want to commend you and anyone in our audience who's making Things with words for the important, eternally significant work you do every day. Thank you for telling stories of hope and redemption through your films and for making people long for the kingdom and just, you know, at the most basic level, thank you for serving your audiences and producers and investors and production companies through the Ministry of Excellence. Guys, I love this film. It's called Clouds. I'm sure you guys have already seen it anyways because it's right there on the home screen of Disney. If you want to find Cara, you can find her on Twitter at Joy Delights. N Letter N. Joy. Did I get that right?

Kara? You did.

Joy Delights and Joy. Kara, thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you. This has been such a joy. A joy. Thanks.

That was a lot of fun. Anytime I get to talk about Bob Iger on the Call to Mastery, you know it's going to be a good episode. Hey, if you enjoyed this episode, the Call to Mastery, make sure you you subscribe so you never miss an episode in the future. If you're already subscribed, do me a huge favor, take 30 seconds, go on Apple podcasts right now, and leave a review. Let us know why you love the show. By the way, we read these. We actually read these internally every week at our Jordan Rayner and company All Hands meetings. We read some of the reviews you guys leave here on the podcast. So if there's anything you ever wanted to say to me or the team in that way, that's a great way to do it. Hey, thank you so much for listening to this episode, the Call to Mastery. I'll see you next week.