Katelyn James (Founder of Katelyn James Photography + Education)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back.

Guarantee on this book.

I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me, right. I know this is a very different biography. What is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right?

So that's the first reason this is.

A risk and I'm gonna de risk.

This book for you.

Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended.

End quote. But here's the thing.

In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on 5merechristians.com and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5meerchristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey everybody.

Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor.

How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians?

Those of us who aren't pastors or.

Religious professionals, but who work as audiologists.

Housekeepers, and special ed teachers.

That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to my friend Kaitlyn James. She's the founder of Caitlin James Photography and Education, teaching more than 40,000 photographers how to build profitable and purposeful businesses. Caitlin and I recently sat down to talk about what the tragic death of her son taught her about life and work. We talked about how to resolve conflicts at work in a Christ honoring way, and how refusing to listen to the.

Holy Spirit has cost Caitlin not just communion with the Father, but tens of thousands of dollars.

I think you guys are going to.

Love this conversation with my friend Caitlyn James. Caitlyn, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you. It's an honor to be here. I'm so excited.

I'm so excited. Hey, I read in your. We've known each other for a few months, but I read something in your bio. You kind of knew you were an entrepreneur as a kid.

Is that right?

Yes. Well, I didn't know what an entrepreneur was, but apparently I was one entrepreneur, but yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Oh, man. It's so funny because I look back now, I'm like, oh my gosh, that's where all this started. I started buying these 90 cent plates from Walmart and I'd paint them and then I'd bake them in my mom's oven and then I would take them to craft fairs and I'd make like a thousand dollars and I'd sell them for like 45 bucks.

What a country.

Yeah, so I came home the first time that happened, you know, it was like a 15, I don't know, maybe even a 14 year old. First time that happened, I couldn't even drive, but I made $1,000 at a craft show. Yeah. And I just thought like, oh my gosh, this is my calling in life. And, and it was not my calling in life, but it was my calling to work for myself, use my gift. All the above. So that was my. And honestly, what's crazy is we run a multimillion dollar business and the same ein number with the state of Virginia is the same number that Caitlin's crafts started with.

Stop.

Yes. We've just, we've just changed the name like multiple times.

That's so good. I love that so much. Yeah. I like you as a kid. I don't think many kids self identify as entrepreneurs, but. Right, yeah. Like looking back, you're like, oh yeah, you can, you can see that thread throughout. Like I was selling baseball cards in like my neighborhood. Like, yes, right. Like it's that. That seed that God plants in the hearts of some people.

Right.

This photography business kind of started right out of college. Do I understand that?

Right.

Basically, just to avoid having a cubicle job.

Exactly. It started actually in college. I worked out of my dorm room. I was 20. All my college roommates, senior year, you know, they were like, freaking out about resumes and like getting internships. Yeah. And I just made a promise to myself, like, if I. If I could just make $24,000. And I was engaged. I'm like, Michael's going to be a youth pastor. He's going to make 40. So combined we could survive, pay the mortgage on this tiny, tiny little house if I could just bring in $24,000. So that was my goal. And I surpassed that goal, even though I was. I wasn't killing it back then, but y started when I was 20. And that was quite honestly the best decision I ever made because I was. I had a 10 year head start on my life, career wise.

Totally.

Yeah.

So at the time, you're just your typical wedding photographer, right? You're just doing gigs, trading services, right?

Yeah. Shooting weddings. So, like, I was involved on campus, you know, leading things. So I'd like go lead worship at a retreat for like this Christian organization I was in. Intervarsity. I would do that and then I would drive through the night to get to D.C. to shoot a wedding that I had booked the next day. And then I drive back to the retreat and I'm like, I don't know how I survived that season of my life, but that was true hustle mode. But it was perfect. I had no husband, no kids, no responsibilities. I was just like, pushing my way through those first few years of business. And oh my gosh, it paid off tenfold. So I'm glad I did it. Even though I look back now, I'm like, I think I was living on three hours of sleep, like every night.

Yeah. Today your business looks a lot different. Right. You got this significant company teaching tens of thousands of photographers how to do this themselves. You're not doing a whole lot of shooting anymore.

What led you to make that leap.

From solo wedding photographer to true entrepreneur, educator, et cetera?

I think. Well, I had this one launch that really opened my eyes. I had friends that I'd met in the industry that were a step or two ahead of me, and they would just keep saying, like, caitlin, take your workshops online. It's a gold mine. And I'm like, I don't understand how it's a gold Mine, like, no, you're sitting on a multimillion dollar gold mine, had a launch, made six figures in a weekend, and I'm like, oh no, my eyes have been opened. But what really allowed me to see more clearly is that my impact, it wasn't just a financial decision. My impact and who I've reached and the amount of people I have spoken into their lives through this role. I mean, I went from 12 people in a living room, teaching them in person, to 20,000 students around the world. It's like I felt called to it financially. It made sense. And honestly, getting ready to start a family back then, it also made sense because I didn't have to do as many in person conferences or in person workshops or so it was all those things combined. I really felt drawn to it, like the Lord was leading me in that direction. And so, yeah, that's. The scaling really started in 2014.

Yeah. On your website it says that you help others build, quote, profitable and purposeful businesses, end quote. Specifically photographers. How do you articulate the purpose of your business, Caitlin?

That's a great question. I would say that all of my creative gifts were given to me in conjunction with the story that God's written for me to be able to impact our students. And my hope is that in my prayer for all of our students and we end all of our courses with. Some people probably hate it, but I don't care. Some people love it. It's changed their life. We have lessons about purpose. Like, you're not, you were not given your creative eye, your passion, your drive. All that was not just some accident or something for you just to serve yourself with. It was a purposeful part of the way you contribute to the rest of the world. I want everyone to experience the joy that comes from living into that purpose that God has. So if I can do that through teaching you lighting and getting better at a craft, if I can do that through teaching you more about lightroom, more about posing, more about business strategy. But there is a, a sprinkle of Jesus and purpose and hope and in everything that we produce. That, that is what my hope is. That's, that's what I feel called to.

And even if you're not explicitly stating the name of Jesus, right, as you talk about purpose, Right. You're still conforming your students more to the image of Christ and pointing them away from themselves and towards service to others, right?

Oh, yes, exactly. And it's, it is so fascinating because sometimes I'll think, you know what? I didn't add it. I Didn't add that purpose video in. And we'll get emails from people saying, hey, I'm a Christian. And you didn't say you were, but I just got the feeling you were. I'm like, well, that's good. I'm glad you can tell you and.

I share a mutual friend. Friends in Graham and Shay Cochran.

Yes.

Who've both been on this show. They have a lot of stories of that. Like, lot of emails from YouTube subscribers who are like, I think you might be a Christian.

Oh, yeah, right.

Tell me more.

Yes, right.

Which is fascinating. You've said before that this tragic event in your family's history helped to clarify your purpose. Would you mind sharing that story with our listeners?

Yes. Oh, I'd love to. And I'll try to do it condensed because it is, it is long.

You take your time. We got all the time in the world.

Okay. Well, we started our family in 2017 and had a little girl. It was a pretty complicated pregnancy, but just a lot of random things like tumor in my hand, which I almost had like a finger amputated. And it's my trigger finger for my camera. Like they don't make cameras for left handed people, so I have to have, have my right index finger or else I can't hold a camera. And that finger, literally a tumor popped up at the end of pregnancy and an oncologist was like, if I don't operate on you next week, we're going to just amputate that part of your hand and it'll be fine. And I'm like, no, no, no, you don't understand. He was trying to talk me off the ledge. I'm like, you can't talk me away from being petrified of losing a finger. Sure, that happened, but it was the first time. It was kind of a glimpse into how God can take something that seems awful and purposeless and really do something to bring you closer into, like what he called me to as a mom. Like, I wasn't, I was not in the right mindset. I was still a workaholic. I was still obsessed with my business. And literally the month before my first child is born, I'm stuck in a cast. I had surgery, wide awake. They're drilling into my bone and I'm, I'm thinking to myself, what is happening? But God broke me of workaholism through that experience. And I thought, oh good. Like, that's my story for life. I'm going to use that. I'm going to teach from it. Well then fast forward eight months later. Surprise, we're having another baby. We were not planning on this. We were grateful, we were excited. But this baby, at the 20 week ultrasound we found out one, it was a boy. But two, he had life threatening complications. It wasn't just one thing, it was a lot of things. Swelling, misshapen skull, very short arms and legs and ascites, which is basically water within the abdomen. So we had testing done and he had down syndrome. And all of these complications were from that down syndrome diagnosis. And so the doctor said, oh, this is devastating. I'm so sorry. He probably has two weeks. Well, this little guy flipped breech, which basically means that his head is up, his feet are down, so his body was only keeping, only had to keep his brain and his heart and his arms alive. And so when he flipped, it expanded his life growing inside of me by three months. So I carried a dying child for three months every day wondering, like, is he still with us? I can't tell. Like, I don't. So we bought an at home Doppler. We, we went in for ultrasounds just to see him move around because that's. We knew once he was born, he would not be living. And this went on and on and on. And every week we thought, surely this is the week where God will end his suffering and end. End mine. It is fasting. During those three months, I truly was transformed into a new person spiritually. Now I was barely hanging on by a thread. If you. My sister's in the office and she's, she can attest to like, I was not a fun person to live with. But I look back now and my faith was completely transformed in a way that I don't think was, would ever even be possible unless you live through something like this.

How so?

I was constantly. Well, I just told, I lead our youth group at our church and I just told them last week, I said, you know, I came to a realization that I had to go through a step of questions. And I was saying to myself, either God is not even real, like this is all something that humans made up to make them feel better about life. Okay? So either he's not real or he is real, but he's not the good God that I have always grown up knowing him to be because look at my situation. Or he's real and he is actually good. And this horrific thing that I'm living through, he knows more than me and I've got to trust that. And it was like I always knew these options existed in my mind. But carrying a dying baby, knowing that his death is imminent. Knowing that I'm planning a funeral for my second child, it's almost like it forced me to reckon with, like, Caitlin, what do you. When the rubber meets the road, like, what do you truly believe?

You experience the options.

Yes.

You experience the options that God was indeed non existent.

Yes. And that is a terrifying. When you've grown up in the church and you've grown up knowing Jesus since you're six, it's a terrifying thought to even consider. What if this isn't real? I am living through something that's making me realize, yeah, the world's pretty awful place. Like, how can a good God let someone who loves him so much go through so much pain? But I feel like my. My faith was completely transformed because I just kept wrestling and I came to this conclusion of like, okay, well, I know it. It is harder for me to explain to myself the miracles and the amazing things in the world without God. So let's just get rid of option number one. I know there has to be a God. I just got to decide, is he a bad God or is he actually good? And I wrestled with that all over again. And I came to the conclusion that I'm not allowed to determine and define if God is good based on how I feel.

Amen.

And that is such a. I mean, in our culture today, feelings drive so many things, and it's devastating people's lives. And so I'm like, I can't trust my feelings from 8am to 8pm, especially in this current state. So I've got to trust and I have to know. And deep down, I feel like the Lord reassured me consistently that he had a plan for this. And so I started sharing even some of the doubts. I started sharing our story. We grew. I don't know how many. I think it was 40,000 Instagram followers in three months. People that were just invested in our baby's story. And to this day. So anyway, he was born. He passed away as he was being born, but we got to see him and have pictures with him. Our daughter got to meet. Our whole family got to meet him. And in the nurses, I mean, my favorite part of his birthday was nurses in the hospital in tears were like, we do this all the time. Sadly, we see stillbirth all the time. But something was different here. And I'm like, oh, let me tell you why it was different. You know, it was beautiful. His. His. The day we lost him was actually incredibly joyful. Which, no, I had to be careful who I say that to.

Yeah.

But for Three months leading up to his death. The gift of those three months was that I became a new person. I became everything changed. My view on business changed, my view of God changed. My view of pain and purp. Purpose and suffering changed. And so the day that we actually lost him was a day of celebration. This beautiful child, my only redhead, I'm a redhead and I. All three of my current children do not have red hair. But of course this, this sweet boy would have red hair. He was wonderful and beautiful and, and he never suffered, you know, he never went through pain. He went from knowing his mom to knowing Jesus instantaneously. And that is, it was beautiful. So we survived that. And I have spent it will be five years in May, which is hard to even say. I can't believe it's been that long. But I have spent years having conversations with moms losing twins, losing babies to trisomy 13 or trisomy 18. Non believers, believers all over the spectrum. And it is one of the greatest joys of my life to one, get to talk about the son that I never got to raise. And two, to be able to say to women genuinely, you will smile again. And there is hope in this and there is purpose in this. Unless you've been through that, you can't say that to somebody. Right. Because they're not going to believe you. It's too horrific. So I came out and the other side of it, business wise, this is mind blowing. We still. I should go back through the numbers. 2018, I didn't work for six months. I couldn't, I mean, I could barely get out of bed. I was depressed. I was so. But it was the biggest, most profitable year we have ever had in business.

Wow.

So the Lord provided in so many ways and it really made me realize like everything about my perspective of business, of faith, of family, it all shifted because of this little boy.

Yeah, it's a pretty good reminder having that profitable of year that God alone produces results in our work, in our businesses. It would have been very easy for you to keep this a private matter.

Oh yes, right.

Like very understandable. Like everybody would have understood that. Not talking about publicly, not making up. I mean it's like on your business's website, like you guys like talk openly about this. Why have you done that?

Well, I remember when he was diagnosed, I have a sweet friend who is a more private friend. She has a small business, has since gotten off like social media, which makes sense for her. But I remember her texting me very intentionally and saying, don't feel like you have to share this, like, this is your story and you don't have to let the world in. And I really thought about that. And for a little while we didn't. But there was like a line in the sand where Michael and I decided we're either going to barely survive this or we're going to trust the Lord with this and we're going to thrive in it and we're going to cross over that threshold and let him use it. And that meant sitting in the pain long enough for it to transform you, which is a whole other conversation because humans don't like to do that. But I was forced to do that because he. He just kept living. And so I really felt like the longer his story went on, the more opportunities I saw God use his story. And it's funny, I thought I shared so much more than I did, but if I look back on my Instagram account, I didn't even share that much. But the little times that I felt like, I want the world to know this about my son's story, it was so powerful and it was such a God ordained piece of text or a God ordained blog post, it almost wasn't me speaking. And I think, I look back now, I do remember deleting a lot of things whenever it felt like, am I doing this for pity or am I doing this for my purpose? And to this day, now I think about that, like, am I posting something because I want the attention or I want the comments, or I want the engagement, or am I posting it because I feel called to? And I thought that's another thing I learned so clearly during that season.

Yeah. Commend you for being so public about this because I think as Christ, I mean, this is what Paul did.

Yes, right.

I mean, Paul boast in his weaknesses, he boasted in his pain. In fact, he said that he would only boast in his weaknesses and his.

Pain because God gets greater glory.

Yes.

We can be honest about the pain.

And still say, blessed be the name of the Lord, right?

Yes. Oh, it's so true. And it's fascinating because up until that season of my life, sure, I had had struggles or, you know, here and there, but I always thought like, like I don't even know what that verse means. Yeah, I don't really know what Paul's talking about, but I. Yeah, but now that I. And we named the baby James because of James, Chapter one, verse two through four. When consider it pure joy, my brothers, when you face trials of any kind. I didn't even know what that verse Meant, you know, it just sounded like it sounded good. But I lived through it and I've seen it be a real source of hope in my life. And before James, I never, I never had that. So yes, 100%, yes.

You said your view of business changed through this experience. How so?

I would say for me up until that point we had just hit our stride with launching a new membership. It was incredibly profitable. We were seeing just numbers we had never seen before. And I really feel like during that season God just showed me, like you said, it's up to him. Right. We should have had our lowest year ever because I did nothing. I didn't create new content, I didn't show up for anybody. I just survived my own personal struggle. And that's the year that he even thinking about it now. I mean we had to buy a Tesla, like we had to save money on taxes and buy a Tesla at the end of the year. And I don't know how it happened, but that was totally the Lord. And so God showed me so much of like through the story of sharing about James and the impact of that. It was almost like I transitioned from realizing that my contribution was so much more than being an educator of light, an educator of editing, an educator of photos and posing, and that the Lord wanted me to use more of me to change people's lives more than just these courses. So we went on to do other products and other year long programs where I just had more of an opportunity to share, share my story, my life and how it's integrated into my business. And before, I think we were going down the path of being a money machine. And I don't think we realized that at the time. Another crazy thing, we had a large debt we wanted to pay off. And I really, before James's whole season, I thought if I just paid that off, I will have so much peace in my life. And so because 2018 was such a big year, we paid it off. I immediately realized like that was such a lie. Yeah, like it doesn't matter. Their peace doesn't come through a paid off bill. Peace is something that I had to fight for through losing a child. And it just opened my eye. I just had a broader view of what God was trying to show me with life. I was very, I didn't even think I was, but I was stuck in a tunnel vision of business and life and purpose. And so yeah, I think it was kind of a holistic. Every part of my life was impacted by this child.

Yeah, your bio says that quote, James's Story taught us not to hold back, end quote.

What do you mean by that?

Is there connection here between James's passing and. And your boldness and appetite for risk and growth in the business? Feels weird to even articulate it like that.

But what do you mean by that?

That's great. It's so funny to hear you read through this, because I'm like, I think I wrote that three years ago, but it's still true.

When people read my bio to me, I'm like, oh, gosh, I know.

What did I say? No, but I agree with that. It's still very true. One, the beauty of being able to share about James is that I can't get canceled for it. I didn't even worry about that in 2018. And it taught me a lot about, like, if the Lord's going to use something, you just use it. And you don't filter everything and you don't refrain from sharing about how Jesus is the reason you survived a stillbirth. So I was more bold in that regard because I could be. And there was a freedom that came from. If you live through something that only 1% of women live through, you get to share your story and no one's going to criticize it because it's so tragic. Yeah. So there was freedom to be bold in that. But also, we risked. So. And this. If I ever wrote a book, one day, it would probably be. This would be a chapter. But we. In order to fully let God transform us through tragedy, we had to let ourselves truly love this baby. And that sounds. Unless you've been there. I know it's hard to process that, but most people that are in a situation like this, you just want to Band Aid how bad it hurts.

Yeah.

And so you don't let yourself. Some people don't name their children. Some people do not do maternity photos. They don't want to see the baby on the ultrasound. They just want to get it done and survive and move on. We fully let ourselves love him. Like, listened to his heartbeat at home with our little girl. Took him on trips, took pictures, made an album of everything we did with him while he was still alive. We put ourselves in a position to risk. It is painful to love something you're going to lose. No human is going to choose that. But it's in choosing that and choosing to honor his life that allowed us to survive. I mean, we actually did thrive in the midst of a stillbirth. And not many people can say that. And so he just taught us that the risk of loving something but also having open hands with the Lord. There's no greater way to learn that than to do that with a child.

Yeah. You talked about this theme a couple of times now.

Really?

Like sitting in pain.

Yes.

Right?

Yes.

How has that influenced your work at all?

Have there been seasons in the business that have been painful that you've sat with and wrestled with that have influenced the future of the business in positive ways?

Oh, definitely. I mean, I feel like, I feel like I'm in one of those seasons right now of like what is, you know, I know there's a new season. I don't know what it is. It's so easy just to keep doing what I've always done. But I know God's calling me to something else. But I would say even personally, I mean, I work with majority are family members. So out of my immediate family, the only two people that are not hired by my business are my brother in law and my brother. So mom, dad, sister, husband, sister in law, we're all, we have salaries for my business. And I think what I learned in a roundabout way from James Story is like, we have such a healthy relationship and work because we work through hard stuff. There's no like, hey, you said this and I'm going to let it bother me for three months and then it's going to blow up. We deal with it and we talk through it. We are all a part of transformational life coaching with the same coach. And I think James season just made me realize like, I didn't. It just life, life is fragile, it's short and we had to sit in so much mess. It was, it made me really realize there's such beauty in that. Like, if I'm going to have an argument, I don't have to apologize to my sister later. But if I have an argument with my sister, she's the CEO. We'll sit down in my office studio and we will hash it out through the tools we've learned through coaching. We will hash it out. And it might take two hours of tears and hashing out miscommunication, judgments against each other, all the things, but we will do it because we know if we let ourselves stay in that pain, the outcome is we're sisters that can run a multimillion dollar business together and still love each other and still want to hang out after work hours. You know, I don't think I've ever had an example in my life of the benefits or the purpose of allowing yourself to be in pain before. James. That was the first time I Saw, like, and it was such. I didn't really. Well, I did have an option I could have ignored and just tried to survive. I thought of that option as soon as we got the results from his ultrasound. I'm like, it's okay. We'll try again for another baby. But then God immediately showed me that's not what I'm calling you to. I'm not calling you to forget about this baby and try to get through it and get him out and move on with your life. I'm calling you to sit in the trauma, even of this, of this journey in your life. And I'm going to be. I'm going to do beautiful things through it, even though you can't see it. So it's hard to forget that happened and not apply it to other parts of your life.

Yeah, for sure. I think hashing out disagreements internally with your team, with your family members is a really good example of how that trends. Right. It's. I think a lot of us in our workplaces try to avoid confrontation at all costs. You're like leaning into it, not in an aggressive, antagonistic way, but when there's an issue, dealing with the issue, knowing that God's going to create something more beautiful because you dealt with the issue and dealt with the pain, right?

Oh, yes, a hundred percent. I mean, the more I've been doing life coaching for six years now and I'm starting to forget because I've been in it so long, I'm starting to forget the way the normal world works.

Yeah, I understand that. Yeah. You're like, it's water to you now. You're swimming in water. You don't notice it's there.

Yeah. So when I hear people say that there's a problem with an employee, with a co worker, with a peer in an industry and their solution is to not never address it, I'm like, oh my gosh. I mean, you know what you're doing, right. Like, this is going to blow up in your face. And so. Yes. And I get it. We, we have several of our good friends that are all entrepreneurs that coach actually with the same person. And we actually talk about, like, we have a different perspective on the way that we live life and do relationships.

Yeah.

Because of what we're choosing constantly.

Yeah. Proverbs 27 says open rebuke is better than secret love. Right.

Yes.

We're called to rebuke and to confront things. How do you do that internally with your team in a Christ honoring way. Like, how does, how does confrontation look differently? Because You're a follower of Christ.

To answer that in a very condensed way would be, I have learned that I've got to do the work in my backyard first before going to anyone else. So, like, I've got to. I've got to focus on my contribution before I go to anyone else. And a lot of times my contribution is rooted in my stress and my. Am I really stressed with the team because a sales page hasn't been updated? No, I'm stressed because I told myself earlier in the day, caitlin, like, get yourself together. You are not organized this year. And then I see proof of that belief that I told myself to believe about myself. Proof in a sales page, blamed it on someone else, and then said with a tense voice to an employee, I just don't know why this isn't updated yet.

Yeah, it's frustration.

Yes. It was root. So much of our conflict is rooted in personal. So if I do that personal work, the less and less we actually have confrontation with other people. And then when we do the work of figuring out what did I contribute, then you're approaching that person. Saying, I'm experiencing you this way doesn't mean you are this way. I'm experiencing you this way. And I realize this is what I've done to contribute to this problem and I'd love to talk about it. And that is a lot different than you hear the word confrontation. And it sounds like you come out guns a blazing and that doesn't work well for anybody. So really focusing on me, which is hard because we all love to be victims of something. We get a lot out of that. And so it's very hard to step back and take victory over. No, I chose this. I did this. I let my mind go here and it resulted in tension with a coworker. And. And I'm going to own that with this person. And I am not perfect at that. It happened especially when I'm pregnant. It's like I am stressed, intense quite often, but I go back to that as a default. And I think that's why we can be in business together and not kill each other. Honestly.

Yeah.

No, but like, that, that's such a Christ like trait.

Right. Like, I would argue, if there's like one primary trait of Christ, it's his humility.

Right.

And to approach confrontation first by cleaning up my own backyard, that takes great humility through the power of the spirit to do. Right?

Yes.

We've talked about how you approach confrontation and conflict resolution differently. You mentioned working with your family. I think that's different. Distinct. We talked about how you've been open about pain. What else would be different about your business if you weren't a follower of Jesus? I know it's a really hard question. It's hard to even imagine that it is. What else do you think makes the business distinct? Because your apprenticeship to Christ, it's such a big question.

The only thing I have to compare it to are seasons where I was seeking such worldly affirmation. I didn't even realize it. Because, yes, I can say that I love the Lord and I'm walking with Jesus and I want my business to be a reflection of him, but I'm also human. And so there's been seasons where I have focused on the wrong things and I have tried to pursue the wrong things. I think about. I went to speak at this conference back in probably 2014, and I remember showing up and my name was like. Like my picture was life size in the MGM Graham lobby at Vegas. And I just like, I've made it. I have made it. And then I came out of my, you know, my seminar that I did for a couple hundred people, it wasn't even that big of a conference. And they were packing up the conference lobby area and they were taking the poster where my face and my photo was life size and literally just balling it up. And I thought I just had this realization and oh my gosh, my face in my photo that I just put so much identity into and worth into is literally going to a Las Vegas landfill. Like, it's going to go to the dump. And that really was a turning point for me where I just realized, like, I have been at the top in a lot of ways. I've been able to be sought out, to speak and teach in an industry where there's only a few great leaders. And I realize, like, ultimately my purpose. Strip it all away, ultimately that is not what I'm after. And so I think if I didn't have Jesus to pull me, rein me back in, I think I would just consistently be seeking that feeling of walking into the lobby, seeing my face larger than life. And I wonder if I couldn't see my face larger than life enough, or if I couldn't see a billboard, if I couldn't see awards, or if I. What would happen to me if I lost all of that. And what would happen to me if I wasn't a six figure photographer, you know, at 25 years old? What if I was more of an average photographer? Like, would I be satisfied with, with that? I. I think it Goes back to, who am I created to be and how am I fulfilling that? With the gifts that I was given by the Lord. And when I think about it as a whole, I think ultimately, if I'm on that trajectory, to serve him, to love him with my gifts, I can't fail at that. But every time I get off that wavelength and I start thinking about, like, oh, gosh, Instagram, I don't even know how to play that game the right way anymore. All it takes is one or two scrolls of comparison, and my joy has been stolen. My attitude is nasty. I'm not a friendly person to work with. My demeanor changes, and that is what the majority of the world is living like. And I find myself in that so often. I got to pull myself back out. Jesus is the only way I'm pulling myself out. So if I didn't have Him, I don't know what would pull me out. I don't know what would get me back on track. I think I would be defining so much of am I successful based off of numbers, algorithms, engagement. And that is, quite honestly, in 2022. It's a very empty way to live your life.

How do you manage that tension between knowing that Christ alone gives you your worth, right? He gives you the applause for your work before you step on the stage. And like, living in this world where gotta be on Instagram, you kind of gotta be scrolling through.

I mean, I don't.

But I'm assuming you do for your business, like, right? How do you remind yourself of your worth in Christ when you're swimming in these deep oceans of content where everyone tells you you're worth what your balance sheet says you're worth.

Oh, gosh. I mean, honestly, if you had asked me a few years ago, I probably would have said like, well, here's your content strategy. Here's how you get your team to do stuff, and then you do this part and then. But honestly, in this season of my life, I have really come to terms with. I post and I share about our life, about what God's teaching me, about our business offerings, about content that we put on YouTube. Some of those things you have to do. And I could get a team member to do it if I don't feel like it. But other things, I really default back to that season of when we were walking through the James story of, like, do I feel called? Does this bring me joy to share this? Like, why am I sharing this? And I have found that is the only way for me to show up on social media if I Feel pressured. And maybe it's because I'm 35, you know, I'm not the 20 year old back in college that I'd jump in. You tell me to jump, I'd say how high? I would follow all the rules. And now I'm just realizing, you know, yes, I've got to stay current, I've got to stay present. But if I can't stay current and present through being genuinely and authentically who I am and sharing what I feel like God has for me to share in this season in my life, then I don't want any part of that. Oh, because it's so fake and it's so draining and it's so. I really let myself go. I've let. Let myself go. I do feel like that sometimes I've let myself go of the exit expectation that the world has for people who are going to thrive on Instagram. And it's fascinating because no one would say that it's going to hit the algorithms to share about a dying child, but that what I learned from that season was that people want real and people want authentic, and people love the beauty of curation and perfected feeds and all these things, especially in the creative world and the photo world. But what people are drawn to us for is authenticity. And that is what I feel like God's called me to. And so the more that I get clear on what God is calling me to specifically, the more I'm even clearer on what I share on social media.

How do you get clear on that? Of what God's calling you to specifically? What does that look like for you personally, that is.

Jordan, your questions are so good. They're so good. They're just so deep at the same time. Okay, first of all, I don't. I don't think there is one realization of this is it for me the rest of my life. I think it's a journey, and I think that it requires a constant level of checking in and going back to surrender. You know, for me, I wanted to send out a poll last week to some of our veteran students and just say, what do you look for from me personally? And what do you look for from me professionally? And I just realized I need to be doing the same thing with the Lord. I need to be going to him and saying, what do you want from me in this business professionally? And what do you want from me personally? And if I can make that a part of my normal rhythm, I feel like God will bless that and honor that. And I also, I know what it feels like, to not be in the right place. Like, I've created content, I've pursued partnerships. I've done things in my business where I feel like, you know, people talk about, are you in alignment? And I have weird feelings about that word. But in alignment with the Lord, I'm totally okay with that. And I think I very clearly know when I'm not. I just recently, and I probably won't go into too many details because it's still in the works, but, I mean, I made a $30,000 mistake. It's not a mistake. It was all on me. I tried to pursue something that I wasn't ready for. And I sat down at our team retreat and at the very end, I mean, I waited until we were packing up our bags. I said, guys, I think I need to pull the plug on this part of our business. And I said it and blurted out because in my soul and in my spirit, I. I knew, I knew it wasn't right. I was forcing something that wasn't what God was calling me to. Is it a cop out to say that the Holy Spirit will let you know? I don't think so. But it took me a three month process of me constantly having this gut feeling, this probably isn't the right time, but let's just go for it. Oh, it's probably not the right fit, but I'll make it fit. And then at the end of a three month period, I just ended it all. And I realize now, like, that was a Holy Spirit nudge for three months that I did not pay attention to. So when it comes to what am I called to and what does God want from me? As a business owner, I am constantly in a state of trying to be better about hearing his voice. And if I don't do that, check in. What do you want from me professionally? What do you want from me personally? And constantly asking him that. I'm probably going to have a lot more mistakes like what I had this past fall.

Yeah.

Which I got to get better at that because my team's gonna fire me if I keep having mistakes that are that expensive.

No. And I get how that looks like. That can look like a cop out to some people, but, man, it is way costlier to ignore the spirit's promptings.

Sure it is.

And to only later on make that, make that call. It's like that. It's the sunk cost bias that keeps us, I think, a lot of times from obeying the spirit's leading.

Exactly. Oh, I 100% agree. And it's. And if Someone's listening to this and they're like, I don't know what it means to listen to Holy Spirit. I would say you might not understand that feeling, but there is also a feeling of I'm not in the right place. This is not a good fit. This feels forced, it feels tense. And it's not the tense and the forced feeling that makes you. That catapults you into a new season of growth. That's what I. That's what my excuse was with this. Once I started taking it to the Lord, that's when I started to see. No, Caitlin, you're not trying to just break through a new level of business. You're trying to do something you're not supposed to be doing right now. So yeah, definitely, you're 100% correct like it is. It's a hard thing to explain, but once you've been through it, and this has happened to me multiple times, so I'm probably a good six figures in to mistakes in my business.

Six figures worth of mistakes and not listening to the Holy Spirit's leading.

Exactly. Yeah.

I love it. Caitlin, three questions we wrap up every conversation with. Number one, which books do you find yourself recommending or gifting most frequently to others?

That's such a good question. I would say first of all, in my season of life, I have a five year old, a two year old. I have to think about this. Five year old, two year old. Wait, no. I have a five year old. Oh my gosh. I have a five year old, a three year old, a two year old, and I'm about to have a baby. My books in my life have been about potty training and parenting toddlers.

Same here.

But I will say this. The find your people Jenny Allen's book, I love that book because she just so openly talks to what so many women crave, especially post pandemic. And I love that book just because it is. It's a way for people to find connection and community. And I think that that is what most people are just oh so desperate for.

Yeah, it's a good answer.

We just started a school for our kids. It's entrepreneurial based and we have like these 12 families and I cannot believe the connection we've formed with the moms of all these kids. And I'm realizing like that I should gift. I should have thought about this for Christmas. But that would been a great book to gift all of them. So. Yes. So that's. That is a good recommendation, at least for the women.

It's good answer.

The women Listeners. Yeah.

Hey, who would you most like to hear on this podcast talking about how their faith shapes their work?

Gosh, that is a good. Has Shea Cochran been on here a.

Long, long time ago. So I love Shay.

Oh, gosh, yes. She. We have been doing some voxer messages back and forth and she in this season of her life and her business and her growth, she is a fast and being a mom, she's a fascinating person to talk to. And I just listened to her on another podcast and I was like, she needs a podcast of her own.

Yeah, we zoomed a couple weeks ago and caught up, but we haven't caught up publicly. That's a great. I like that answer a lot.

Yes.

Hey, you're talking to an audience of mere Christians who want to do great work for the glory of God and the good of others. What's one thing you want to leave them with before we sign off?

I think I would leave them with the encouragement that God is constantly in the role of renewing you and reworking you and giving you new vision. And as I'm in a season in my own business of trying to figure out what does he want from me, I'm constantly reminded that a lot of the beauty of what's going to come from this season is just in the the mere goodness of God, that He has a plan, he has a purpose, and that we weren't given all these gifts just simply to feel stuck, that he's going to show us exactly what he has in store for it. So to enjoy the process of that, that's what I'm calling myself to. That's what I'm trying to remind myself every day. That the process of discovering God, calling you to something so uniquely and specifically for you in your life, that the process is a part of the purpose.

That's good.

Yes.

That's really good. Caitlin, I want to commend you for the exceptional work you do every day for the glory of God and the good of those you serve in your business. Thank you for being so transparent about your pain and allowing God to use it for his greater glory. Guys, you can learn more about Caitlin and her business@ CaitlinJames.com of course, we'll have that link in the show notes. Caitlin, thanks again for joining us.

Thank you for having me.

Hope you guys enjoyed that episode.

Hey, if you're enjoying the Mere Christians podcast, do me a favor and go.

Leave a rating of the show on Apple podcasts, on Spotify, wherever you listen to the show.

Thank you guys so much for tuning in. This week.

I'll see you next time.

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