Katelyn Miller (Early Intervention Teacher)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back guarantee on this book. I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me, right. I know this is a very different biography. What is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right? So that's the first reason this is a risk and I'm gonna de risk this book for you. Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended. End quote. But here's the thing. In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on 5 mereChristians. Calm and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5merechristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians podcast. Jordan, I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as pest Control workers, dieticians, and jewelers. That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to Caitlin Miller. She's a public school educator in North Carolina providing literacy interventions for kindergarten, first, second, and third graders. Kaitlyn and I recently sat down and had a terrific conversation about why following Jesus is not just about avoiding sin, but about doing righteousness in your work. We talked about how to wrestle with both the cosmic significance and insignificance of our work and how to make disciples of all nations in the job you already have today. I loved this episode. I'm confident you will, too. Please enjoy this conversation with Caitlin Miller. Hey, Caitlin. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast.

Hey, Jordan. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, so we met at this event I was speaking at a few months ago in Lake Tahoe. And I think I've mentioned this on the show before, but I typically don't travel west of Texas for speaking gigs. And people are like, why? Is this, like, political? It's nothing political. Totally practical. Because I like you. I've got young kids, and I'm based on the east Coast. And just traveling west of Texas is really hard. It takes a really long time. But, man, I was glad I said yes to Lake Tahoe, because that place was unbelievable. It was unbelievable. Had you been to Lake Tahoe before?

No, never. And to be honest, I don't even attend that conference every single year. But when I saw it was in Lake Tahoe, I wanted to go. And just the vastness of God's beauty and creation is so awesome to see out there. I grew up going on a lot of hikes. My dad used to, like, at the top of the mountain, say, look at all this. This is all just a glimpse of God's glory. And I kind of felt that way being out there. It was just. Just a glimpse.

It was unbelievable.

Yeah. Yeah.

So if you're listening and have an event like Tahoe, I'm here for it. One of my keynotes at that event was this Hafter's About Heaven keynote and what it means for a work and what a great setting to do it in. I'm like, look out the window. You're telling me that this is our temporary home? No way. No way. The stars declare the glory of God. These mountains, this lake declares the glory of God, and he's gonna make them all new. Anyways, it was amazing. It was amazing. And I got to learn a little bit about your work, but I'm going to act ignorant for the sake of our listeners. Caitlin, you're an early intervention teacher. What the heck does that mean? Talk to me like I'm five. What do you do?

I work with five year olds. That's what I do. Yeah, so I'm a public school educator. I started in fifth grade, loved fifth grade. But since 2021, I've been working as a high impact tutor that provides early literacy intervention. So what that means is after coronavirus, the gaps in education just were really accelerated and magnified.

They were there before, but this was like the great expediter.

Yes. And so I work through an organization called North Carolina Education Corps and they were started during the pandemic to try to bridge those gaps. And so I'm a licensed educator and they place me intentionally in these high impact schools. And so four years ago I was placed at this school in the county where I live, the district where my own children go to public school in, and fell in love with that school's culture and the incredible educators there. And I keep coming back. And so what those teachers do is they analyze the data from their class and they say, hey, these are the kids that are really struggling to become proficient readers. And they send them to me for really data driven specific interventions to meet their needs, to really meet them where they're at and to help them grow. And it's so fun. It's the middle of the year, so we just got a bunch of data back and it's like, oh my goodness, they're all just really exceeding growth. And then they can better benefit from being in the classroom and grasping the learning that's going on there, which is really cool to be part of.

I love that so much. And I also love. We talked about this a little bit in Tahoe. You turned down a job at a pretty prestigious Christian school in your area to teach in the public school system. I want you to tell our listeners.

Why I loved what that school is doing. There's amazing educators there. It was a university model classical Christian school. But my heart, I just kept going back to like, this is not what my heart's doing in. And I don't think I could have told you at the time, but I think it was because, like, I truly feel called and so passionate about teaching the populations that I serve. And so I serve children from all over the world. Burma, Haiti, Honduras. I have a girl that just came from Burundi. She has never received any type of formal education before and I get to teach her how to read. So, so eager to learn. It's so cool. And so I kind of see it as kingdom work I think a lot about the Beatitudes, like, blessed are the poor ones in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven, and how God is a God that meets them where they are. And so I think about some of my students, and I get to be a part of meeting them where they are and just accelerating their growth as readers.

You get to be a part of bestowing God's blessings to a lot of the people Jesus is talking about in the Beatitudes.

Yeah. And I think about there's a scripture in Revelation also. It's like they'll work the vineyards and they'll reap the fruit of their own hands. Like they'll build houses and they'll get to live in them. And I think about that a lot when I think about the parents of the children I serve. And my hope would be that maybe we could see that even here on earth for some of their situations.

That's a great rev. So in Isaiah 65, verses 17 through 23, it's a passage I quote a lot here on the podcast because it's talking about work on the new Earth, but there is this, this little mention about the poor that's so beautiful I'm trying to find it right now. Isaiah 65, verse 21. Let's talk about the new earth. They will build houses and dwell in them. They will plant vineyards and eat their fruit. No longer will they build houses and others live in them, or plant and others eat. This is good news for the poor, right? It's talking about work free for the curse of sin. And they actually get to enjoy the fruit of your labor. And that's who you're serving in the public school system are some of the most marginalized people in our society. And I think that's why probably you and I were jumping up and down for joy when we met in Tahoe. About this idea that serving in the public school system can be a practical way to do justice, right?

Yeah, absolutely. The public school is the only school system that accepts all children. There's a lot of phenomenal schools out there, but they're going to be limited as to who they accept based on whether or not they have access to transportation or their family's ability to afford schooling, or their family's ability to have a stable home and not be transient, or a whole variety of other factors. But public school accepts all children, regardless of where they come from, of their abilities or their disabilities. All are welcome. And I love that about the public education system. You're not going to find that anywhere else.

Yeah, and for the record, I'm a huge fan of Christian education. I went to A K through 12 Christian school. Some of my best friends homeschool their kids. I'm all about this. But there is something to be said for the justice that can be done through the public school system. And yeah, Caitlin, I was going to say this at the end, but I got to, I got to say here, while we're on this topic, I just have to commend you for the work you're doing here because I am noticing a lot of Christians who, I want to be careful with my words here, who are functionally defining following Jesus as merely avoiding sin, of retreating from the world into our Christian subcultural bubbles and avoiding sin at all costs. Jesus didn't just avoid sin, he did righteousness. He did justice. Right. I think about this quote from Mark Barrison all the time. He says the church has turned into a bunker where we seek shelter when we're actually called to storm the gates of hell. Right. And we are, I think as Christians by and large, to riff off my kids favorite Elsa from Frozen 2. Right. We are retreating into these kingdoms of isolation rather than advancing the kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven. But you're an exception to that trend, Caitlin. You and your friends like you.

Yeah. And I'm not the only one. I was going to say it later, but that's the point. In the public education system now, I'm in the state of North Carolina, but I've always worked at high impact schools. And I think every single principal I've worked for has been a professing Christian.

Come on.

It is saturated with people that are following Jesus because really, like, who else wants that job? Yeah. And so it's just really cool to see, like, what did Jesus spend his time doing? Who did Jesus spend his time with? And we as public school educators get this privilege of just being a little glimpse of that kingdom to come.

And shouldn't that. I love, I love that in your experience. Right. Granted, this is not statistically significant data. Right. But like every principal you work for is a professing Christian. Shouldn't that be what the world says of the church of man? Those Christians take jobs that do not pay, that are emotionally and mentally and spiritually exhausting. But are some of the most important jobs being done in our community? Shouldn't that be said of Christ followers?

Yeah. Yeah. And even if you don't have a job, I know your listeners come from all different jobs, but like, everybody's living in this broken world. And so what are we as Christians doing to pursue those that Jesus pursued during his time here?

That's right. You don't have to go work at the public school system to serve the marginalized and to repair what's broken in creation.

Yeah, just even the brokenness of families, like, who do you know that's a single parent that could use some support? And how could you reach out and help them or just know your neighbors and care for them?

Well, yeah, it's so good. So the whole point of this keynote you heard me give in Tahoe was that our work is intrinsically good, even if we don't get a chance to share the gospel with those that we work with. But you pointed out to me in our pre interview something that I thought was fascinating, that, hey, if you don't teach kids to read, they're never going to be able to read God's truth in the first place. Talk more about this.

Well, the gospel is a written word, I think. I think there's a quote and it's like, speak the gospel and use words if necessary. Yeah, I understand the sentiment, but I do. But it's gone word.

Exactly. I 100% agree.

And so there have been times where I've thought, like, it's magical now that I'm teaching early reading. And it's magical seeing a kid like read their first words and realize they're reading. And then I think if we can. There's so many studies that show if we can provide these supports in these early interventions, when they're in kindergarten and first grade, we can get them on track and reading at grade level and the trajectory is really cool. Like, we can. I really believe it. We can, we can impact life outcomes by creating more literate children.

You can impact generational outcomes.

Yes. And I think about. It's an ugly history, but I think about the history of the United States. And there was a time where black and brown children were legally not allowed to learn how to read. And then we've come such, such a long way. But I think about Ruby Bridges. Ruby Bridges is still alive. And so is educational inequity, unfortunately. And so I think to be aware of these things and to be part of changing them. I totally lost what question you were asking.

It doesn't matter. Just go, just rip on this.

Oh, that was it. I used to think, I'm always praying. I'm always praying and asking, God, give me an eternal mindset. And so as I was teaching children to read, I would always think, well, what's the eternal significance of this. And I used to think, like, well, if they can read, they can read scripture one day. They can comprehend, especially when you have children. Some of the parents of the children I teach are not literate. That has happened. So, like, this is huge. But God is changing my heart a lot. And he's teaching me, yes, that's like a half truth. Like, yes, they can read, but also like, I'm part of his kingdom work. And so teaching these children who I haven't done their DNA descendants, but some of the children I teach, it is likely that they have great grandparents or great, great grandparents that didn't have access to this kind of education. Actually, I, I was just teaching a girl from Pakistan. I know that in Pakistan she did not have access to, to the same level of education. And so that's God's kingdom work that all, all have access to literacy. And so being that's like this, you're definitely going to have to edit because I'm all over the place. But I don't know, just being part of that work of bringing redemption.

I don't want to end this at all. Because you are just sitting in awe at God's power and his ability to work through broken vessels like you and me, to bring his kingdom to bear on earth as it is in heaven. And as you're talking, mentioned the girl from Pakistan, you mentioned some, some students from other nations a few minutes ago. I'm sitting here thinking, you know, we talk so much about going and making disciples of all nations. Our interpretation of that word go, it's actually, it's actually not a great translation of that Greek word word, which is this to get really nerdy for a second in AIs tense, passive participle, which means having gone, disciple the nations. And you're discipling the nations without ever leaving North Carolina, right?

Yes, I say that all the time. Like, the nations are here.

Yes.

My kids attend a public school. It's our neighborhood school. It's in the same district that I teach. Their school has children who speak over 20 different languages at home. They have children that come from over 25 different countries that are here in my neighborhood. They're my neighbors. And this winter they had a winter choir performance. And it's public school. So they're singing about snowflakes. But on the way home, I said to my kids, I said, guys, that's a glimpse of the kingdom to come. Yes, those kids from every nation and at the name of Jesus, that's going to be the difference. They're not going to be singing about snowflakes. They're going to be singing about Jesus. And at the name of Jesus, every tongue will confess, every knee will bow. And I say, your school is a glimpse of what's to come. And then we pray. We right now is Ramadan. And so we pray a lot for our Muslim friends. There's a lot of children from Sudan at my kids school school and they're seeking. And so we pray a lot. Again, the Beatitudes. Those are hungering. Yes, those. Those who hunger and thirst for righteousness will be filled. And so, Lord, we pray for our Muslim friends that you would fill them with the truth of who you are. It's so that one day we can all worship together.

It's so good. I love what you said. The nations are here. I don't think I've ever explored this idea on the podcast before. Right. Like in our increasingly globalized, interconnected world, the nations are wherever you currently are. Right?

You.

You are working amongst people from all nations and not just if you work in the public school. I guarantee you that if you're working as an executive at ExxonMobil, the nations are there at ExxonMobil. If you are working as a barista in your local coffee shop in the middle of Topeka, Kansas, I guarantee you the nation are there. And so you can go and make disciples of all nations by just going down the street and doing your work with excellence and love and looking for opportunities to boldly proclaim the name of Jesus. Amen, Caitlin.

Amen.

All right. You're so optimistic about the work. Like, I, I could just sit here and listen to you for another 30 minutes, talk about the beauty of education. Like, no joke, but, like, wrestle with this with me for a minute. I've been thinking a lot about this lately. You're. I touched on this a couple minutes ago. Your work is cosmically significant because it is ordained by God and being done by God through you, his willing servant. But at the same time, it is also cosmically insignificant because you're one teacher working on this massive problem. I'm one author working on this massive problem. And your problems. My problems that we're trying to solve are, are not going to be fully solved until Christ's return. Right? So how do you. Do you wrestle with that? Do you think about that? Like, how does that reality of both this cosmic significance and relative insignificance in your work change how you think about the work? Change how you engage in the work?

Yeah. Do I wrestle with that? Absolutely. It's a Hard one. And Jesus himself said, there will always be poor among you. And so sometimes I wonder. I don't think it's recorded in the Gospels, but what about the people that Jesus didn't heal because he was limited in his time and in his energy as a human? And I have a lot of questions and I think that's okay to have questions and to go to Christ with your questions, but I used to have a pastor that would say, do for one what you wish you could do for all. I think we can get so overwhelmed. But when I go into work and I sit at a table with three or four children, I'm going to do the best I can to serve them because that's who I have access to as far as being able to impact. And I had a, I had a Christian administrator once say, yeah, we, we cover the work we do with prayer and we have so much hope for these children. But she would also say, hope isn't a strategy. We're going to use data driven, strategic methods to do the best we can to provide for these kids. So that's what I, that's what I aim to do. And I, and I do hold it loosely because there is still so much brokenness and so much unmet need. I have taught students that are scared to get on the bus at the end of the day because of what they're going home to. I've taught students that are scared about summer break coming because they're afraid of whether or not they'll have food in their home. I've had a child come in on a Monday morning and then come into my smaller group room and just totally break down because of the trauma of domestic violence she's witnessed over the weekend some really heavy, heavy, hard things. And I pray, Lord help us. And then when it gets really desperate, I just say, come, Lord Jesus, come and renew all things. Because it is hard work, but it's good work.

Yeah, it's bittersweet, right? Like we lament over the things we can't get done, but we rejoice for the good we can do for the one that we wish we could do for all. I have a friend who says a lot, delegate to God what you can't get done, right? So it's like, yeah, like we're gonna go to work and we're gonna do our best knowing that we're all gonna die with unfinished symphonies, knowing that the poor will always be amongst us, but we're not called to bring the kingdom to bear in full, right? Like that's Christ's work. Like he is the one who will ultimately rip the veil between heaven and earth and consummate the long awaited marriage of these two dimensions. And in the meantime, we're just called to be faithful. Right? And to be faithful. Previews, trailers of what will one day be. All in all, amen.

Amen. Yeah, like in your book you had the analogy of scratching off, just scratching off the, the kingdom, a glimpse of the kingdom. And I think that like I'm a mere human and that's been a learning process for me as an educator to humble myself and recognize I don't have control over so much. But I'm going to do what I can to reflect the coming kingdom and honor God in my work as I learn to trust him ultimately and just trust that he's going to bring that final renewal of all things. I think about Revelations 21:3 5, all things are going to be made new. And you see that in our society people are just longing for this justice, for this renewal. I'm just learning to trust that, that he's gonna sort it all out because he's much bigger and greater than I am. Yeah.

You said something in our pre interview related to this that I love. You said, quote, without Christ's redemption, the weight of this work would be unbearable. End quote. And I gotta assume that you work with colleagues who do find the work unbearable. Right to the point where maybe they're even leaving the public school system. I'm curious if you've had opportunities to demonstrate to those colleagues the hope that they can have in otherwise unbearable work because of Christ's work of redemption.

Yeah, I would say not just colleagues, just people living in this broken world. I'm a walker, so I walk with a lot of friends and there are some walks that just really heavy things come out and so that hope to be honest, I think it's so important to be honest with people that I don't have answers. I still have a lot of questions for God in this broken world. I still have a lot of prayers that go from lord, help us to come, Lord Jesus, but that acknowledgement of if we seek God, we're going to find him. And I too along with you, you know, a friend or a fellow educator that might be frustrated at certain situations to just acknowledge, like me too, I, I get frustrated too. But I'm gonna just keep on seeking and humbling myself and trying to trust in a God that's a God of justice and that's a God of making all. I don't know that all things new. I just keep thinking about all things new because there is, there's so much that's so bright, broken and messed up in our world. Even the, the public education system, you know, has a lot of complex issues. But I think Jesus is the answer somehow. Right? God's looking towards the future and sometimes.

Admitting that you still have questions is the answer.

Yeah, being real. I think, you know, they say, like, God's really trying to teach you something when it's repeated through things. And I would say in the last year or so, God's just taught me a lot about looking towards the, the kingdom. The gospel, I guess, that I grew up with was like, Jesus died, He saved us. The end. And it's not the end. It's almost like another advent. Like we're waiting. We're waiting for the return and the renewal. And somehow I miss that and I am learning it. And so we are talking about it a lot. And so that's kind of where I turn. I turn towards like the work. It's done, but it's not done. It's that Advent again, that waiting. And so I talk about the kingdom wall. It's funny because I talk about it with my kids and it comes out in weird ways. Like my 5 year old opened a door and saw an unfinished attic somewhere. We were. And he was like, oh, mom, when Jesus comes back, this is gonna be made all new into a new bedroom. Like he had like this vision of how it would be finished, which I love in his five year old brain. And then my daughter is getting a little older. She got her very first deodorant. And so we talked a little bit about how her body will change. And she goes to me, I just hope God comes back before then. And I'm like, hey, girl, me too. There are moments and days where I'm like, come, Lord Jesus. And so just having the kingdom on our minds is helpful and helpful.

Hey, all right. We've been talking about how your work is godly, how your work is good, but it is not an ultimate good. So I want to talk about idolatry before we sign off because it sounds like you've wrestled a little bit with this throughout your career. Is that right, Caitlin?

Yeah, yeah, more than a little bit. My husband would attest to that. I love your journey.

I want to hear about this.

Okay. So I would say when I first started working, I was working full time. That's when I was teaching fifth grade at a high impact school. Then we were calling them schools in transition. It's all the same. It's all the same work, same thing.

I need high impact.

And I poured everything into it. I mean, nights, weekends. I never left there without a bag full of kids, work, or data to analyze or. It was just my everything. And it wasn't healthy for my marriage. It wasn't healthy for me. I was relying a lot on my own strength. And don't get me wrong, I was very successful. I was doing great. I was receiving a lot of praise from leadership, but it wasn't good for a lot of other things. And I think I was just relying on my own strength. I think it boiled down to trust and me feeling like, well, I can stiff arm it, like I have control, which is kind of a joke. But I thought that I could be the Savior almost. And so I realized now I was struggling to trust God. I had in some ways become my own God and backstory. I grew up in a home that was a foster home. And so I was about 4 when my parents started fostering. So that's all I ever knew. I was always really aware of the brokenness of this world. I have some friends and some people, they're just able to live more insular lives and they just don't realize the needs in their own communities and around the world. But that was not my case. I was very aware. That's part of what led me into the work that I do. But also I had seen some really hard things because of that. And so it led to, like, this struggle to trust God, like that God's gonna take care of these kids. And so I just was like, depleting myself, feeling like I was the one in control, which I'm not. And I think also failing to see an eternal perspective of like, we're not going to always see that redemption this side of heaven. We're not always going to see that justice or that equity. But we're going to aim for it and we're going to hope to reflect it. And we need to put our trust in God, who's so much bigger than us. And we need to trust that he's going to make all things new and bring. Bring that redemption.

But that is the difference between worldly hustle culture that leads to idolatry and burnout versus the way that I think Christians should engage in this work. In my first book, I refer to this idea as, like, trust, hustle, rest, right? So, yes, Scripture would commend some of hustle culture, right? We are told all throughout the Gospels and through Paul's letters in the New Testament. To work hard as under the Lord. Paul is constantly talking about how hard he was working and expending with all the energy he had in service of the gospel. So yes, hustle. But before you hustle, communicate your trust that it is God and not you who is ultimately responsible for the result. Results, right? And it is only when you can both trust and hustle that you can truly rest. Right? Work really hard and rest really, really well knowing that the results are in God's hands. But if it's just hustle and just. Or just trust, I would say that's not biblical for the believer. Does that framework resonate with you, Caitlin?

Yeah, yeah. Like you, you could err on either side, right? You could err on like, oh, kind of like that administrator that, like, hope's not a strategy. Let go and let God trust God. Like, no, we're gonna hustle. But then you also go to the hustle where, like, I'm gonna try to grasp for control of things I don't have control of. So yeah, finding that balance, that middle ground. And I also think Satan is really deceptive and he likes to take good things, right? Teaching is a great thing. Family is a great thing. Work is a godly thing. But he likes to take good things and twist them into little gods.

Yes, that's good. Randy Alcort says Satan specializes in rearranging price tags.

I love that picture.

It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no. The work is valuable. It's just not ultimately valuable. You mentioned, you mentioned in your pre interview that you were convicted by Habakkuk111, which I had to look up. I did not know off the top of my head. Do you know it off the top of your head, by the way?

I think it's short. Just like their own strength was their God.

You nailed it. That's it.

Yeah, it's just their God.

That's what we're talking about. So what practically are you doing today on a Tuesday in the middle of the school year to ensure that your own strength does not become a God that you hustle with while also trusting in God for the results?

First of all, funny story about Habakkuk 111. My sweet sister in law for Christmas one year asked like all the women in the family like, what's your favorite Bible verse? And so me being like overly analytical, like my first thing was like, Habakkuk111. I cling to that verse. It's been really transformative for me. And then I was like, but Maybe that's not like a good verse to come. Pick is the favorite verse. And then I'm like, analyzing it. Then for Christmas, she just went with my first pick. And we all got these, like, decorative nightlights that, like, had our favorite verses. So everybody's are like, feel good favorite verses. And then there's mine. I open it like, your own strength is your God. Like, okay, I love the verses that.

I love the verses that you wouldn't typically crochet on a pillow.

Okay, yes.

Yeah, that's a thing anymore. But. All right, so first of all, I'm going to come back to the question a second. How did this verse become so important to you? Like, do you remember when God first opened your eyes to this particular text?

I don't remember. I do not remember because it is. It's like this random Old Testament thing, but. But I really struggle with pride. And so you're reading through the Old Testament and you see, like, oh, they're building a gold calf. Check, I'm good there. Oh, they're worshiping these gods. Are that God? And then it was this story in the Bible and it's this little one little sentence, like their own strength was their God. And God really humbled me during that time of just like making my good work everything and having it become a God. And so what can I do? Like, to rely on God more practically. I have a 30 minute commute, which I love. It's just me, nobody else in the car.

I miss commutes.

Oh, it's wonderful. Like, go walk around your block for 30 minutes before you work because there's so much good in it. But I try to be really intentional at that time. I don't sit well, so I think the commute is a really good blessing and it's a lot of going to God in prayer.

I'm going to send you a book I just finished reading. It was by Dr. Denise Daniels, who was just on the podcast talking about a different book. But this book I just read is called Working in the Presence of God. And she talks about the liturgy of commute and ooh, yeah, you'll love it. And like, really practical ways to think about using the things you see every day on a commute to draw you into deeper intimacy with the Lord. So I'll send you a copy of that, listeners, if you're interested. Go check that out. All right, Caitlin, I've loved this conversation. We wrap up every episode of the show by asking the same four questions. Number one, we already touched on Isaiah 65. Looking ahead to the new earth and the work we will enjoy doing, free from the curse of sin with Christ. What job would you love for God to give you on the new Earth?

This is hard because there's still also jobs I wonder about doing on the current earth.

Yes. Like what? Like what?

Oh, like maybe I'll be a school social worker and help with reducing chronic absenteeism. Like, what supports can we put around these families to help them? It's something that I just don't know a lot about, but I see a need. And so I'm like, oh, I wonder, you know? And then another dream of mine. This is this earth. It's like a laundromat library.

Oh, my gosh, tell me more.

So I just think of, like, a lot of the families I serve are really, really hard workers. And, like, there's a fair amount of them that, like, having laundry in your home is a privilege. And I can only imagine, like, having young kids or sick kids and not having laundry. And so a laundromat for a lot of communities is, like, it's a necessity, but it's also this, like, gathering place. And so what could we do to come alongside? There's a lot I don't know. I would love to research it and learn, but I'd imagine that there's a lot of really tired, hard working people at the laundromat. So how could we come alongside them and equip them and empower them and their children? And so because I'm all about literacy, I'm like, oh, what if we had a laundromat in a library? So for the young children, we'd be competing against screens, but we could do like a story time hour. I'd have. I have no idea. I don't really have a plan. I just have a dream.

I love. Oh, my gosh. I love this idea. No, I love this. Hold on. We're gonna workshop this live and pray that one of our listeners, like, takes.

This along with it.

Yeah, so when you said laundromat library, I was thinking, like, you know how they have those free libraries, like, at parks? We, like, open it up and there's like, nasty, worn out books. Like, you could do that, but, like, do it well inside of a laundromat where people are donating books and you could take those books and there's picture books in there for kids, but there's also books for the grownups doing the laundry. That's what I was thinking.

Oh, that's really smart, too. And. And much more. Doable yeah. If any of your listeners have an idea, I'd be up for it. I jokingly told my husband the other day, I'm like, I think maybe I just will go a year. Well, our dishwasher broke. And I'm like, I kind of wish our laundry, Our washer and dryer broke, because part of me wants to just go a year without using the washer and dryer and just like, go to the laundromat and why don't you just do it? I'm all about connecting. I know. And then, then you realize how luxurious it is to have laundry. Yeah. What a privilege to be able to wash my clothes in my own home.

Oh, my gosh. I really hope somebody which a lot of the world.

A lot of the world doesn't have that privilege. People don't realize that.

I really hope somebody does this. I might do this with my girls. Like, this be such a fun thing to create with kids. Like, hey, we're going to just go collect a bunch of books and I don't know, go to laundromats will opt into this and set up these libraries and I don't know.

Yeah, I mean, and most, most laundromats have, like, a counter of some sort for folding, so I feel like you could leave a box with books.

This is fun. You know what I want to do in the new Earth? I want to do this. I want to, like, rip with Caitlin Miller on ideas. But, hey, we won't have to be worried about inequality or anything like that on the. Or illiteracy. And I love it. All right, Caitlin.

Okay, wait, wait.

Yeah, go ahead, please.

I never even answered the question.

You didn't answer that. What do you want to do in the new Earth?

The new Earth? I want to explore nature. Like, I'm going to be like a. A bird watcher or a master gardener or something. I don't know. There's something about nature that just points to God and his creativity and his awesomeness. And so just being a nature explorer.

I want to leave kayak tours on the new Lake Tahoe.

Oh, yeah, I'll be there.

Yeah, that sounds fun. All right, if we opened up your Amazon order history, what books are we going to see you buying over and over again to give away to friends?

Tales that Tell the Truth series?

Yes.

Two of my favorite are God's Very Big Idea, Just about the, like, trillion newbies of God's kingdom. And then the awesome Super Fantastic Forever Party by Johnny Aksontada. I love that book. It is such a great Gift to give on, like, the anniversary of someone's death or maybe like the birthday of a parent that passed away. That has been one I've given out a lot. Not necessarily right at the passing because the pain is so fresh, but it's just such a great reminder of the hope we have in Christ. And so those are kids books. Yeah. I've been recommending Lead with Prayer a lot lately. It is one that I put off reading because I knew it would be super convicting. So it's good. It. It's good heart work. And then liturgies. I did not grow up with liturgies. And I have come to love, love them. And every moment Holy is my favorite that I gift a lot, especially the one on death and dying.

Yeah, it's really good.

When you're in this pain and when you're in this broken world, we just don't have words to pray in. I think it's in Romans. It says, like, the Spirit prays for us in our weakness with groanings. And that liturgy book about death and dying and loss, I've also gifted that to a lot of neighbors and friends in the midst of situations we just don't have words for. To be able to go to those liturgies is really comforting.

It's rare that a guest shows up. And number one, I've read every book they've recommended, and 2am A raving super fan of every book they've recommended. I would wholeheartedly recommend all four of those. Got very big idea. I, uh, Joni Eareckson taught his book on the New Earth, which title I can never remember. Awesome, super fantastic something party, which I love.

Yeah.

Leave with prayer and every moment Holy. Those are amazing recommendations. Caitlin, who would you want to hear in this podcast talking about how the faith is shaping the work they do in the world?

I don't think you've had Sally Lloyd Jones.

I have not had Sally Lloyd Jones.

You need to have her. Her. First of all, her accent is wonderful.

It is amazing.

Like, it just sounds. I want to just hear her. She collaborates with Andrew Peterson and she'll read at his Behold, Behold the Lamb concerts. That's on my bucket list. I want to go to one of those. I love Sally Lloyd Jones. A lot of people don't realize she writes all genres of children's literature. And so she wrote the Jesus storybook Bible, like, millions of copies sold in a bunch of different languages. But also, Sally Lloyd Jones wrote my favorite potty training book. It's called Skip to the Loo. People don't know this, so, yes, skip to the loo. And she also wrote, I feel like you're like a lover of cities. Goldfish on Vacation is such a good, like, city summer book. And those. Goldfish on Vacation, I read to my kids at school because you can. And so I just love. I met her once, but I just love her idea of, like, I'm going to just create really high quality children's literature, whether it's about using the toilet or about Jesus, like all spectrums. She's going to do it well, so you should have her.

That's so good. I love it. That's a great idea. I will. All right, Caitlin, you're talking to this global audience of mere Christians doing a bunch of different things vocationally. What's one thing you want to reiterate to them or say anew before we sign off?

No matter what work you're doing or where you're living, you're gonna see brokenness because we're living on a fallen world. And just the reminder of hope, the hope we have in Christ and the importance of us clinging to that hope and pointing others towards that hope. And so I guess lean into Revelation 21, that hope of all things being made new, and then ask yourself, as a Christian, like, what can I do now to be a part of reflecting Christ's redemption?

So good, Caitlin, I would commend you for the exceptional work you're doing to that end every day, for reminding us that the call to follow Christ is a call to downward mobility. Right? As Henry Nouwen once said, right to again, not just to avoid sin, but to do righteousness and in the process scratch off that thin veil currently separating heaven and earth. So thank you for that reminder today, Caitlin, and thanks for spending time with us.

Yes, thank you, Jordan.

Hey, if you're enjoying the Mere Christians podcast, do me a huge favor right now, go leave a review review of the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you're listening to this show. We read every single one of these reviews and trust me, they are a huge encouragement to the team behind this podcast that makes it possible. Kayla, Chris, Kaylee, the team at, we edit podcasts, etc. Etc. So if you want to encourage my team to keep going and keep creating great content here on the Mirror Christians podcast, go leave that review right now. Thank you guys so much for listening. I'll see you next week. Hey, friends, this is your last chance to claim all the amazing pre order bonuses for five mere Christians before they go away at 11:11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9th. I've never offered this many pre order bonuses on a book before, so when you fill out the form@5merechristians.com Number one, you're going to be entered to win an incredible trip for you and a friend to tour CS Lewis's favorite spots in Oxford, explore Olay, Kirk Christensen's former stomping grounds at Lego headquarters in Denmark, and much more. Number two, you'll be invited to join my first ever interactive reading, culminating in a zoom call with me and my co author on this book, Kaylee Cox. Number three, you're going to be getting a money back guarantee to try the book risk free. And number four, you'll also get access to a free course I'm not selling anywhere called how to write a book 10x faster and better with an Affordable co Author. You can claim all these bonuses in just two simple steps. Step 1 Pre order 5 mere Christians in any format you want. It can be hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever and you can order it from wherever. Doesn't matter to me. STEP 2 Go to 5Mechristians.com and fill out the form of that page. And that's it. I'll send you all those bonuses. You'll be entered into the sweepstakes with one simple form submission. But hey, don't wait. All of these offers, all these bonuses, they're going away at 11:59pM Eastern Standard Time on May 9th. So visit 5meerchristians.com right now to claim your bonuses.