Kelsey Kemp (Career Coach)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes, but first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back guarantee on this book. I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me, right? I know this is a very different biography. What is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right?

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Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended. End quote. But here's the thing. In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step 2 go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on 5MereChristians.com and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5meerchristians.com right now to sign up. Now please enjoy Today's Episode. Before we get to today's terrific episode with my friend Kelsey Kemp, I need to ask for your forgiveness. Your Yours truly screwed up something when I was recording this episode and my professional microphone with this studio Quality audio was not on, so my audio quality is terrible. But the substance of this conversation is pure gold. So with that out of the way, please enjoy this episode with Kelsey Kemp. Hey, friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians podcast. Hi, I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as infantry officers, custodians and treasurers? That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to my friend, Kelsey Kemp. She's a super experienced career coach and TEDx speaker who has helped more than 300 believers land the job they believe God was calling them to. Kelsey and I recently sat down to discuss her eight step process for landing your dream job in a God honoring way. We talked about some of the half baked theology that keeps Christians stuck professionally, and Kelsey shared three things that should set apart how we Christians search for jobs while we're currently employed. This is one of the best episodes I think we've ever created. Trust me, you are going to love it. Please enjoy this great conversation with my friend Kelsey Kemp.

Kelsey Kemp, welcome to the Mere Christians podcast.

Jordan Raynor. Thank you for having me.

Oh, man, I'm so pumped. I'm such a Kelsey Kemp fan. I'm a Kelsey Kemp super fan.

Oh, well, actually my point that I.

Was just about to inject is that I'm actually embarrassed by how often I say your name to people that are not you and like, it's a running joke. With all my career coaching clients and my coworker Audrey, I could almost like.

Even if we're just audio, like on the phone and I don't see her.

Face, I could almost feel the very kind hearted eye roll every time that I'm about to bring up some quote from one of your books.

Fill in the Jordan Rayner bingo card, y'. All.

Yeah, honestly, the last question that you always ask about what books I recommend.

It'S going to be a throwaway. Obviously, people know what I would recommend.

People could skip past that part. Yeah, we get it. We get, we get. Hey, so last time we connected was a few months ago. You were, I think like a week away from your wedding.

Oh, yeah.

So first of all, congrats. It's amazing.

Thank you.

You showed up at the redeeming your time retreat. We were like workshopping items and you're like, yeah, I got something. Anyone have a husband for me? No big deal. In the market.

Yeah. Literally wherever I go and whatever my goal is at that given moment I.

Always treat it like a numbers game.

I'm like, instead of being over here, like a lot of people take the stance of like, well, I don't know if everyone has a special calling or not.

Everyone is guaranteed a great husband.

I'm just like lord in faith. I'm so sorry if this is like over the top or arrogant. I'm going to trust that you do. I'm just going to be like the audacious widow. I think that' Luke chapter 18 that pesters you so much. I'm so glad that I have biblical guarantees of your love for me that.

I am going to find him.

I love it.

It was just like we're like workshopping.

Like commitment tracking systems and goals and cuz like I got something. Anyone know a man who loves Jesus? I'm in the morgue. It was the best ever. It was like my favorite moment. Redeeming your time retreat. Hey. So we've billed you in this episode a career coach. You run this great coaching practice called the cult career. I could say that because I've recommended friends to it. How did you get into career coaching? What's the story there?

A really pivotal moment where I would start. The story is when I was 18, I lost my first big career dream which was to become a professional ballet dancer. I dedicated my whole childhood to that. From six onward, I was homeschooled, I trained morning and night. I went away in the summers to go train at elite training program that I had to audition for. And my final year of high school when I was 17, I moved away actually alongside my identical twin sister who still has a career in professional ballet. Wow. Which that was a whole other struggle of the journey to almost as this cosmic joke, watch my clone in this life live out this dream that was barred from me. So When I was 18, I had a variety of career ending injuries that rendered that pivotal moment of okay, I've trained, I've given everything, now I'm ready to audition for companies null. So I had to cry it out and pick right back up and figure out what else I was going to do with my life. And so I went into going to college. I studied business, I mean supply chain.

Management to be specific. But I never really used that.

And I spent the next seven years wondering if God would ever allow me to feel that way, like feel passion for a career pursuit like that ever again or if that was just a silly childhood thing that can't be true. So in the meantime I just tried to be faithful to being logical and wise. So I did well in my studies. I didn't know what else to do. So I just got the most impressive job that I could at the time. I think I had some separate idols about optics and status that had to be dealt with.

But hand raised.

Yeah, I figured.

So I went into consulting. That was like the big thing at the time, still kind of. It's for PwC. I worked in their tech consulting division and I spent the next two years becoming intimately aware of the problem that I now help solve with the cult career, which is being a go getter. You can do a lot of things, but that's not the same as what you're meant to do. And so there's a lot of different ways that I could describe that. But basically I was burning the candle at both ends. Ended up with a lot of health problems because I was just having to work from talents that I don't have. I was not operating in a function that aligned with my natural giftings. But I thought, oh, isn't this like, quote where God has me and I'm firmly planted in the Bible belt over here in Texas. And so I heard a lot of half baked theology around. You just need to be content and it might be selfish to get up and leave. I had to do a lot of working through that and I had unanswered questions, but I was like, God, either way, I really do just need to move. I need to do something different. Like I was performing well, got high marks, but it was taking a burden on my health. So I started researching, reading all the books, listening to all the podcasts, taking every personality assessment there, was praying a lot, and felt after many months, not much clearer on what other job I should go after.

I think a lot of our listeners can resonate with this story. P.S. just, I'm like, oh, everyone's heads are nodding right now.

Yes, which is why I do what I do. Because as I was feeling this pain and going to all the happy hours with my friends and realizing they were struggling with the same thing, we didn't have good solutions or good help to, with confidence, map out a better career path that wasn't just another wild guess that might have varying success or might also not be fulfilling. Oh, by the way, isn't it like, might it be selfish to try to get fulfillment from our career or are we only supposed to get that from Christ? You could see why your books have been such a breath of fresh air to me and why I feel so passionate about disseminating that message is because bad theology hurts people. So all to say, I just got to this breaking point where I was like, God, I'll do anything. Anything. Send me where you want to send me. Chop up my paycheck. All I ask is that you give me a big calling again. I miss that. I want to work hard for you.

Can it just feel good, like, as I'm doing it?

Like, I don't. I don't care if it's, like, us.

Can I just feel alive as I do it?

Yeah, exactly. So after I prayed that anything prayer, I started to become open to a lot of new things. I kind of scratched all of my, like, oh, it kind of still has to be in corporate, and I don't want to ruin my resume. I don't want to have a lack of credibility in other people's eyes. I was just like, I don't care. Galatians 3:10 says, if I wait. I really hope I have that right. I haven't looked that up in quite some time.

But there is a verse out there. I think it's Galatians 3:10 that says.

Paul was saying, if I were seeking the approval of man, I would not be a servant of Christ. And I was like.

Like, oh, wow.

Yeah.

Okay. I'm not gonna look for the approval of man anymore. So when I started being open to anything, I started realizing that when I was young. Not even when I was young, even in my. Throughout my life, in my teens, I was starting businesses, like, Left and right. Some of them actually did okay. And that was just kind of who I was. It started to come back, but I thought, oh, I'm 24. Like, that's too early. I probably can't start a business now. I need more time in corporate. But I started feeling like, oh, no, no, no. I think I need to start paying attention to this. So this old saying that my mom used to reiterate to me when I said, as a little girl I wanted to be an inventor, she would always say, necessity is the mother of invention. And so I asked myself, like, what is my greatest need right now? That if someone solved it, I would love them forever.

So good.

And the second I asked myself that.

Question, like a bolt of lightning, this thought came to me. Oh, obviously I need help figuring out.

What to do with my life and my career.

And then when that thought hit me, this resonating realization happened. It really felt like from the Lord of Great, now go be that help. And I was like, no, no, God, wait, hold on. But I did. I was like, okay, well, thank you. Like, wow, I've been praying for some.

Movement, so I'll take what I could get. And I did say anything, so let's do it.

And so I started doing research from there because I didn't know it was called career coaching. I didn't know that was called anything. I didn't know anyone really got paid to do that except like guidance counselors in high schools or colleges. But I didn't want to work as that. So I started googling and watching a lot of TED talks. And after a really long time, I came across this TED talk titled three questions to unlock your authentic career by Ashley Stahl. And as I clicked on that video, her title came across the screen as the lights came up on the stage and it said, Ashley Stahl, career coach. And something lit up in me like, wait, what? That's a job. I need to look this up.

Oh my gosh, I need this.

Yeah. And so as you could see, there was like this never ending stream of breadcrumbs that came from continued research and God meeting me on the road. So when I'm watching this TED talk, I'm thinking, okay, she doesn't look that much older than me. I know I'm super young. Like that's one of my objections. Like, how is God going to do this? Surely it's not wise. I'm too young. I thought, she looks a little older than me, but not much. What are the odds that in the next five years, if I really gave this my all, I would achieve at least moderate success in a career like this? Lo and behold, 38 days before those five years were up, where I gave myself a permission slip to look like an idiot, sacrifice financial resources and do anything it takes. 38 days before that 5 year time bet was up, I walked out onto a TEDx stage of my own to tell the story. And I didn't go applying for that. It truly came to me. It was like the Lord, the Lord is the victor here and it's just incredible. So, yeah, there was a lot of obviously more steps that came along the line. And the first two years of going for this were hard. I pretty much got slapped in the face immediately. I was wise to be very frugal when I was in consulting. So I had 20,000 in savings that were supposed to carry me through starting a new business. I got scammed out of it almost right away.

Whoa.

Almost right away. Which, you know, that was my stupidity. But it happened. And so instead of having any pride to hold on to, left I'm a 24 year old. That's quote, helping people find their callings. And I'm cleaning houses on the side to make ends meet.

Yeah, yeah.

And so it was like a fight to the death to stay in it. But six years in, God can do immeasurably more than you could ask or imagine. He will show you that it's incredible. Like, I have a team now. We've served hundreds of people around the world of any age from 20 to 65 in so many industries, many of which I didn't even know existed before these people reached out to. It's been incredible.

And I love that you can't take credit for it.

No.

You're like, ah, yeah, no, I was broke. Gotta put this in my lap. You've told me this story before and you mentioned it very briefly, but you heard a pretty clear word from the Lord of like, yeah, go do this thing. And I know most people listening haven't had that experience. Right. And I know a lot of believers who are just paralyzed by kind of this vocational indecision because they're waiting for that clear word from the Lord. And you've told me before that you really see the called career as your way of, quote, flipping the script from the extra biblical narrative of I will not do anything until I see the writing in the sky, end quote. I love that. I could not agree more that this is extra biblical. I'm curious, like, what do you think is at the root of this? What do you think is at the root of Christians waiting to see the writing in the sky before they make a decision whether it's professional or personal?

Yeah. Oh, man, this really, really gets me. I think it's two things. The first is believing that God's will is a very small target on a bullseye. That's very hard to get. And it's one thing that you have to go out and find that's terrifying. And I don't know if that necessarily paints God as a good and gracious God to make it so hard for the lucky few to live out having work of their hands that's fruitful and satisfying as they get to participate with their creator in advancing his kingdom. And so if you believe God's will is just job A over job B, that's gonna really freak you out. I don't know. Like, you actually were the one that scandalized me. As you said, I don't think God cares. Like, really. You said this on my podcast one time, and it kind of bothered me. I was like, oh, my gosh, I don't think I've believed this before, but you said, I don't think God really cares exactly what your job is.

And I was like, you did not just say that on a career coaching podcast.

Yeah, but you caused me to really grapple with that. And I completely support you, as the Bible does in believing that's true, that the will of God is who you're.

Being and it's a way of life.

And of course, when you are following his principles of wisdom, hard work, as my story indicated, lots of research, not stopping until you find an answer, investing in a lot different paths and seeing which one worked out, you will more and more become the kind of person that makes decisions that feel in accordance with God's will or that are in accordance with God's will and feel like a calling and feel like that little bit of heaven as it is on earth. And the second thing, beyond like believing that it's just one specific thing that is God's will for you is fear and wanting God to guarantee your success before you go out and do it. And this is the one that really gets me going because I, I think that the first one is kind of innocent. Like maybe like me, you grew up under a lot of well meaning ministers that didn't have a fully baked view of the theology of work. And you kind of picked up some scary bits that aren't true. But the second one, it really gets me because I think that some people want a specific word from God so that they could feel like nothing bad is going to happen on the way.

Because it requires no faith.

It requires no faith. And that is the antithesis of who God wants you to become. I think Tim Keller so wisely said, he said God's will is more of something he does rather than something he gives. And so while I did have moments where it really clicked, you could tell if you go back and listen to my story. There was many months and even years where nothing clicked. And that's when I was just praying and thinking and kind of talking to people. But when I started to really take inventory of what are the tasks that I was built to do exceptionally well, who are the kind of people that I have a lot of rapport with and can serve very, very well. Doing what? For what purpose? Who pays for that in what sector?

Like, then things really started to click.

And so God made things clear through action, not just thinking in prayer. Dang.

Highlight that. Underline that clip.

That. That was good.

That was my truck right there. All right, so you're already kind of headed in this direction. I Love this perfect segue because I wanted to talk to you about this eight step process that you walk clients through in the call career. Because back in 2017 you kind of heard these very specific instructions of like, hey Kelsey, you were called to test, I'm reading directly from you, quote, test, study and iterate until a reliable, biblical and practical career formation process for Christians was formed. End quote. I love all that. I'm here for all of it. So I want you to talk our listeners through that process at a high level. We don't need to get super into the weeds. But can you share that eight step framework with our listeners?

Yeah, absolutely. So in these eight steps, I'll kind of break it down into two halves. So the first phase and the first four steps is discerning what you feel called to do and practically identifying the job title that best aligns with that in this current market and time of history. And then the second four steps and second phase is now let's go make that happen. Let's land that job or start that business. Because I about 10 to 20% of clients are looking for business consulting help because their calling is best fit into self employment rather than traditional employment. But the process I'll describe is the one more commonly suited to traditional employment. The first four steps being let's take inventory of who God created you to be and what you've been designed to do. Exceptionally well. That might sound kind of intimidating. I've noticed quite a few people I've worked with over the years fear that they really don't have anything special to give or they're like, I don't know.

I'm good at strategizing or talking to people.

I'm a people person.

Yeah. Yeah. And I have so much compassion for that because that's how I felt. And that's why like my career coaching partner Audrey and I like have a ton of compassion for people who are even scared to go into this step. But lo and behold, God will be faithful. And we want to get you away from just very traditional cookie cutter, albeit like helpful in some regard personality assessments. And we want you to be able to use your own words to boil down what are those tasks that you have a ton of energy and talent in doing them and what are the ones that deplete your energy? Another thing that I feel Christians really get caught up in in this step is feeling like, you know, focusing on almost repenting for our weaknesses and needing to polish those up or this is my cross to bear. I really need to like fix my weaknesses but really you need to focus more on multiplying what you can with the strengths that you have. So we focus on inventory. Second is, okay, now who do you want to go serve with that doing what? And this is another phase that has a lot of hang ups and fears around it, including, I don't know what I'm passionate about. First off, I think what we mean by the word passion is pretty interesting in this day and age. The root word or the historical understanding of the word passion is best exampled in the sentence or the phrase passion of the Christ. Meaning something that you are willing to suffer deeply for.

Yes.

Because you believe in it for a purpose so strongly. And I also want to say with.

That, it's okay if you're like, oh, that didn't make it any better, Kelsey. I don't know what I would want to like suffer for in my career.

But how about let's start with what subjects are you fascinated by? What problems really bother you to the extent that you may even cry over them. That was one for me. Like I really could cry over how many beautiful, amazing, talented people out there felt like they were stuck or wasting their lives in a career that was unsuitable. And also, what is something that you could talk about, think about research, or do all day. And I still want to say, if nothing is coming up, the first step of inventory was good enough. Because some people genuinely are not necessarily called to a particular mission, serving a particular kind of person or cause. But you may just be called. Well, certainly we're all called to at least serve in a function exceptionally well. And so you may just be functionally called. Like, you know, the kind of person I am would be best lived out. Or I would be best suited to a UX research job. Okay, great, go do that. And whoever hires you, yay, you're contributing to their mission. But, but we do go ahead and assess like passion and mission all the same, just in case God is going to put something on your heart. Now about that.

All right, so step one, intake.

Right.

Taking inventory of who God's made us to be. Step two, assignment uncovering kind of this sense of calling and purpose. What's step three in this process?

Ideation. So this is where I am really going to challenge listeners to have reckless abandon as they jot down any career path that has ever been interesting to them in their whole life. Like, it's pretty fun to take like a historical analysis of every career that you've been drawn to and then write down next to it, like, why, what about that job? Interests you. And you're gonna see some themes that are, like, not really good reasons.

And then you're gonna find some that you're like, oh, that's a really good reason.

And then you'll see themes and that will get to a more condensed list of like. Okay, what do I want to be considering now? What do I think might be a decent job title fit for what patterns what I've discovered about myself in step one and two. Guess what? You might look at your list and feel like it's sorely lacking. I would actually expect that it would because we need step four, which is to solve the problem most people have, which is a deep unawareness of what.

Jobs out there actually exist that could.

Be a better match than what you're already thinking. And so in order to expand your exposure to job titles out there, it's not best to do this over Google or LinkedIn because search engines by nature will only pull up what you know to type in. And I'm working with a lot of people that don't even know what to type in. Like, you can't type in dream job. And it actually says instructional designer.

Yeah, yeah, it's probably going to say travel influencer, which, you know, that's a different topic.

But so in refinement, step four, this is where you use people with a.

Relationally led job search approach to give.

You and crowdsource your best ideas. So say if you have Realtor or plumber or whatever on your list, get on the phone with at least three people in each of those professions that hold those job titles, which, by the way, assume like a 10% response rate. So go ahead and reach out to 30 each and get on the phone with them and ask them, what do you have to be good at, like doing and have a tolerance for in order to be like a sustainable fit in this profession? What do you actually do all day long? What are those tasks? What's great, what's hard? All of that. Okay. And then at the end, you summarize, here's what I really liked about what you shared about this job. This interests me, but I'm going to be honest.

You could also share the things that did not sound good to you, and then you could ask them based on.

That and recap what you're really hoping for or looking for in a next job. Do you know of any other professions that might even be a better fit for what I'm looking for? Pause. Make them come up with ideas and then say, amazing.

Who do you know that does that? And then get more connections and then.

This will actually for plenty of clients, this has landed them jobs without even having to apply. Which is a huge deal considering that my clients are traditionally career pivoters and in such a competitive market, especially today, are told they have no chance if you're a non traditional candidate that doesn't have all the qualifications. People go for relationships. So that's another reason that refinement is such a big deal. And I could just blast through the last steps. There's plenty of good career coaching podcasts out there, including Audrey and I try to share a lot of tips on ours to answer the call.

Well, I was going to say these last four steps of this eight step process are super practical and you actually give away a lot of those details on the website so we can point people there, but just round it out real fast. What are the last four steps of this process?

Basically, I'm going to sound really uncreative here. Obviously there's a lot that goes into.

Doing this excellently, but let's get Your resume and LinkedIn all tailored to retell the story of your career in a way that's appealing to the kind of employer you now want to work for and apply to a bunch of jobs, including surrounding your application with proactive outreach so they have touch points beyond what's included in the applicant tracking system. And then interviews, negotiation, all that jazz to really help you land the job efficiently and excellently.

I see a lot of lead magnets. This is one of the more valuable ones I've ever seen. If you guys are interested in going deep in these eight steps, go to TheCalledCareer.com and you can check it out. Let me ask you this though, Kelsey. What about this framework can only fully be explained by your commitment to the ways of Jesus? Because that's what the show is all about, right? How is the gospel of Jesus Christ influencing how we do our work, how we get a job job? Where does that shine brightest in your opinion, in this process?

You know, I had kind of an.

Answer prepared, but something new is coming.

Up in my heart now of I just think that there are so many frameworks out there to get what you want. But the fact that you're doing this to receive a calling from the Lord to be done for God through God's strength shows that you're putting effort into something that's going to last. And even when work disappoints you, you'll say it's the Lord that is my reward and I got to know him more through this whole process. And he is what is sweet about life. And you know, he might turn this around and I'll have other really good seasons at work and I still have vision or maybe I lost it, but I have him. And I think that you could go out there and you could try to like quote, find your purpose or like live in Bali and have a like.

Freedom business where you don't really have.

To work and you're just printing cash. But I think that the story of people who get burnt out in their career and say, you know, like Jim Carrey, I wish that everybody got what they wanted so they would realize that fame and money don't give you like anything. You know, that quote that was like so poignant. I just love that regardless of the process, what we're doing it for and who we're doing it with will show that you'll have something to show for it in eternity and it's not all going to burn up and disappoint you.

One thing that really struck me reading through a lot of Yalls stuff is that I think the worldly approach to choosing a job is incredibly self centered. It is what can a job give me? And you're really focused on helping clients. Answer, what can I give to others because of what God has given in his grace to me in terms of talents that I'm supposed to steward for his glory. And that changes everything. And you see this show up really practically in Yalls process.

I do want you to talk to.

The listener who's in the middle of this process today, who's working with you guys or not working with you guys. This listener, she's actively looking for jobs outside for current employers.

Right.

She feels God's calling her something, something new. But what is it? What does it look like for her to honor her current employer, like truly bless and honor them while she has one foot out the door and knows she's planning on leaving. What does that look like?

Yes.

This is a conversation we have frequently with friends and clients.

And so the first thing is to in a time that can feel like so nebulous and like you're failing at everything because you're trying to do everything at once is you really need to measure what does my job, what does it look like to do well, what is expected of me? What is success here? You could even ask your boss if you're ever unclear, which actually many employees are unclear because their positions aren't well defined and management is not doing a good job at that. You could manage up and ask, like, what do you really want from me right now? You know, and that might be scary, especially when you're burnt out and ready to leave. You're like, no, I don't want them.

To think that I'm about to make all their dreams come true. But really, you need to, for your.

Own sanity, say what, at least at a minimum, is honoring my employer and doing a good job here. And once you measure that, I think that some relief comes because you could see all the things that are not important. And also you could say, after I've done these things each day, I am allowed to think I've done a good job and I can now start thinking about my job search. Similarly, in the job search, what many, many people are prone to dishonor their current employer because they allow themselves to think about leaving all day long and scrolling through LinkedIn while they're on company time. It's very important, very, very important so that you don't do say, okay, brain, you don't have to think about this all the time. What is my expected actions for myself every week that if I do these, I think I will predictably have a successful job hunt? Is it applying to a certain number of jobs? Is it reaching out to a certain number of people? It's dependent on what stage of the application process you're at. But you at the beginning of the week and, you know, read redeeming your time, for crying out loud. You could define your actions for that week and hold yourself accountable to it, but I definitely would time box your job hunt. A lot of people think it takes more time than it actually does to successfully put yourself out there on any given week. Can you do 30 minutes each morning so you could start your day with the encouragement that, hey, I've planted some seeds today so I could go into my employer and give them what's due? Or is it like three hours on a Wednesday evening and then another three or four hours on a Saturday from eight to nine? Okay, then put that on your calendar and do not think, I mean, you could respond to emails and applications and whatever that takes, like five minutes every other day of the week. But don't let yourself have this scope creep of job hunting in your life, especially when it takes your mind away from being present in the things that you're called to. Like, if you're drawing a paycheck from your employer, you're sure as heck called to honor them.

I mean, even if you're not, oh my gosh, like, like you're called to honor your commitment.

So I would definitely time box everything. And then the third step is decide what you're going to cut out during this time. Because if you are adding job hunt responsibilities to your task list for the average American is job hunting for five months before they make a move. That's a good long time. Okay, you gotta decide what you are going to give up during this time. And I think that will be fairly simple given that plenty of us spend and we have some things to cut.

Out in what we do, you know, social media being one.

And so decide what you'll cut out to make room for it. Because that's one of the biggest things that causes people to fail on their goals is they don't account for what they needed to cut out in order to add something new in.

Man, Kelsey, that was so, so good. So I wrote down three ways that Christians should be searching for jobs differently. Number one, clarify expectations with employers so that you can ensure you're serving them them with the Ministry of excellence. Number two, time block when you're going to be searching for those jobs. I love that. I'm going to come back to that in a second. And then number three, just cut out stuff knowing that you're finite, you're not the Christ, you can't do everything. And so cutting out things so that you can pursue what's next for you. Let me come back to number two, time blocking.

Oh wait, I'm sorry, can I add one more thing? Please realize that two weeks notice is total bogus. I don't know who came up with that, but that is the absolute minimum.

You are likely very much hurting your employer by only giving them two weeks. And also as Christians we are not called to be selfish and self preserving. You do not have to be worried about if the news gets out. Like a lot of people are really worried that their boss will know that their job seeking and I don't know, maybe they think they're going to get fired. But most of the time it's kind of hard to find good talent. And it's also very time consuming and expensive to recruit, route and train someone new. So I don't think they're going to be super excited to like jump to attention and start hiring someone new right away. You're likely not going to get fired. Just on a practical comfort note, I want to say that, but on your own. I really think that I've seen so many clients get the most glowing recommendation from their current boss who is willing to get on the phone with new employers that are recruiting them because they said to their manager, I want to be really transparent with you. I am looking to make a move in the next three to six months. I wanted to include you in this process to say here's all the things I'm going to do to make this the most successful, smooth transition for you possible. I've also started looking on LinkedIn people I know that I might refer to fill my position if you wanted to talk to them. I also wanted to get your advice. You really know me. Do you think this is a good idea, this other profession that I'm considering? And if you think your boss is a bad person, by the end of what I just said, you likely will have melted their hearts so much that.

They will turn into a very good person and they will want to help you.

And I've never had a client get prematurely fired by using that strategy.

Say that again.

Never had a client get prematurely fired by honoring their boss and giving them a a one to six month lead before them leaving.

Kelsey, this is what Christian should look like as their transition jobs. This is so good. I love how deeply you thought about this, man. We're not even going to get to all my questions. This is killing me. This is killing me. All right, hang on, let me come back to this time blocking idea. So I think I've mentioned this before. When I was running threshold360 day to day as CEO, I was also writing. I was writing 90 minutes a day, but I only wrote at a very specific time. So I would get to my desk at 5:15 ish in the morning. I would write until about 6:45 and then I would go for a walk downtown to my favorite coffee shop and come back. And part of that ritual. There were a few reasons why I had that ritual. One was just to think about what was most important that day. But the other was to have a hard break in between job one and job two to say to myself, okay, I'm taking off Jordan Rayner Writer hat now and I am fully embracing my role as CEO of this venture because I am going to do this exceptionally well for the glory of God and the good of others. And man, like if I didn't do that, there's no way I would be mentally all there in that really important role. And so man, just confining on your calendar when you're going to search for a job. That tip is worth its weight in gold for listeners. If you care about obeying Ephesians 6 and Colossians 3 and all these other passages that command us to serve our employers with excellence so that we may win their respect. And, oh, by the way, just because it's the right thing to do, because we're called to the pursuit of the ministry of excellence. Amen, Kelsey.

Amen. And if you have a lot of fear of, like, I just don't know if I have that in me. I don't feel honored by my employer, so I don't know how I'm supposed to.

You didn't honor Jesus when he died for you. Sorry, yeah, had to say that.

Yeah, exactly.

But I think just ask God to change your heart. He's so willing to answer that prayer. Ask him to care about what you care or. Sorry.

Ask him to change your heart and.

Your mind so that you care about what he cares about. I really believe he'll answer that.

Hey, before you even get into this process, searching for jobs, whatever, how do you help clients discern? Maybe it's not even clients. Maybe it's before you even meet them, but maybe it's just friends. Like, how do you help friends discern if their ambition for leaving a job is selfish or goblin?

And having the benefit of meeting with so many hundreds of people and talking about this very thing. I have rarely honestly felt like people's reasons for leaving are flippant. I've actually felt like they're pretty honorable. They're not quick to come to a decision to leave. Most of the people I meet with, I could tell they've really fretted over this and they're worried about displeasing God or others. And so in a sense, that's been really sweet to see that I'm not so worried about people's reasons for leaving. It's more so actually, their reasons for what they're going to next that I've seen a lot of. Not a lot, but some need for caution there.

Yeah, what's that?

Caution it is. Are you more wrapped up and excited for what you'll receive or what you'll contribute? I think that especially. Oh, my gosh, I don't mean to be like an old millennial hag. I mean, I'm 30, so I'm not really old. But like, sometimes Gen Z really drives me nuts on this point. Like, they have been. And I want to come from a place of really big compassion that they've been so indoctrinated even more than my generation already has been, of the high life is basically not working and getting huge TikTok paychecks and just going out and being a digital nomad and whatever. And I wouldn't say most of that is inherently bad, but I think that you'll end up being one of those people that writes a book on, you.

Know, you'll be the Jim Carrey quote that's like, I wish everybody got all the fame, fortune they wanted so they realize it's not enough.

It's like the only thing that's really going to satisfy you is not, not trying to maximize your personal gain. Like, are you going for that job? Because you are really, really obsessed with like one thing I hear is like not with everybody, but some people. I don't want it to be too stressful. And the thing is that I don't really see like a good case study in the Bible for someone who like avoided stress.

Come on now.

And especially with call like if you really want to receive like what you believe is like living out a big calling in your career with the Lord. One point that drives me super nuts, and I know it is for you too, and you address this really beautifully in your books, is looking for peace is not necessarily biblical in your career decisions. So I find a lot of people say, and they think they're being super Christians by saying this of I'm not going to move until I feel peace about it. And the thing is that if Jesus Christ himself waited until he felt peace, he wouldn't have gotten up on the cross and I wouldn't be headed to heaven after this. Moses felt no peace. I reread Exodus 3 and 4 all the time, including before this, because I was like, oh my gosh, this is a really big deal. I've always dreamed of being on this podcast. Frankly. I'm not trying to be a peasant by saying that, but like really. And so I prayed with my husband. I was like, God, please remember what you said to Moses and that you said to said, who is it that gives human beings their mouth? Is it not I, the Lord? Now go and I will teach you what to say. And Moses was super freaked out. Everybody was freaked out. Paul was freaked out, everybody. So your calling might be a little stressful, but that's okay.

Like the Lord is trying to give.

You an opportunity to see his all sufficiency and the fact that we can can even boast in our weaknesses as Paul says, because through them, like, oh.

My gosh, his power is made perfect in our weakness.

So it's okay. Like it's always going to be more than you could chew, but you don't have to worry about that. So I'll stop rambling on that. But I think there's a lot of interesting things that creep into the decision of what you're going to next.

Yeah. And not only should we not worry about a job being stressful, we should rejoice in a job being stressful. Now there's a place for lament, right? Work is not what it was meant to be or one day will be. See Genesis 1 and Isaiah 65.

Right.

We should lament over that. We should lament over the thorns and thistles that push back against our work. We should lament over the fact that bosses seemingly require us to always be on, even when we're at home, and push back against that in a respectful and winsome way. But I think there's also a place for giving thanks for those thorns and thistles. I wrote a whole devotional series on this last year. When we recognize that they have the power to drive us to our knees and a deeper reliance on the Lord and man, that's God's will. You want to talk about God's will? God's will is for you to be on your knees with him, relying on him, needing him, every hour of every day. And if it's the stress of a job that does that, blessed be the name of the Lord. Amen.

Blessed be the name of the Lord.

I love it, man. It's so rare that I don't get through all my questions, but I'm not going to get all through all my questions because we have to ask you the same three questions we make every guest answer. Number one, which books do you find yourself gifting most frequently to others? And I'll give you a pass. You don't have to mention any Jordan Raynor titles.

Dang. Okay, so the first one, whatever.

I'm just going to ignore that and say what I was going to say.

Is the sacredness of secular work. I've gotten to the point where I've almost contemplated paying people to read it because, you know, maybe they're kind of bogus like me, and they get book.

Wrecks and they're like, okay, I'll get to it. But I'm like, no, seriously.

Like, I would say it's the most practically encouraging book I've ever read. Like, it was so redeeming for all of the bad theology that really grieves me, that keeps Christians on one side and unfruitful in their careers.

So good.

And then the second is redeeming your time. And then the third is not one of your books. It's Everything is Figureoutable by Marie Forleo. And I think this book is a great answer to a struggle that I see a lot of people have is a lack of resourcefulness. That if they overcame that struggle and developed resourcefulness, I think that their careers on the whole, would be a lot more fruitful.

Yeah, I love that.

By the way.

You're in Austin. I'm pretty sure I've seen like a neon sign in downtown Austin that says, everything is figureoutable. I'm pretty sure that's where it is.

I need to go find it.

Am I making this up?

I don't know.

I'm probably making this up.

Okay, I'll look it up on Pinterest and maybe I'll find it. Great. I love it.

Hey, Kelsey, who do you want to hear on this podcast?

I would love to hear Mike Fossum. He is a former astronaut. He took three missions to space, including a six month stint on the International Space Station. And he's the current COO of Texas A and M Galveston campus. And I recently heard him speak at a conference I was also speaking at, and it's not an overtly Christian conference, but he was very open about his faith and the way that man was so moved when he said, I got.

To design a particular part of our spaceship.

I'm making a real difference here.

As an engineer, I thought that is the antithesis to.

Well, actually, that's like a perfect example of someone who's living out what you talked about in the sacredness of secular work. It's the antithesis to, like, wow.

It's the antithesis to how I felt.

Growing up of, like, physical things might not matter, but this man believes so strongly that he commissioned. He, like, everybody, please be in government, be in business, be in engineering. You are making a difference, and not just by, like, donating to nonprofits.

Yeah, yeah.

I was so energized. And I actually found out about him first because he's the brother of my dentist in Corpus Christi, lol.

I was like, wait, I know him. So, yeah, that's who I would love.

So I gotta say, we've had some huge guests on this show. Big, big, big names.

I can't get an astronaut on here.

To save my life. Now, granted, we've only invited like, one or two, but we're going to be inviting Mike Lawson. This is a great name. I become increasingly obsessed about NASA and space in the last couple of years, so we're definitely going to be reaching out to Mike. All right, Kelsey, what's one thing from our conversation you want to reiterate to our listeners before we sign off.

Do your research to logically work out your calling and then trust God to guide and redirect you along along the way. I cannot tell you the amount of times on a weekly basis. I for years have quoted Proverbs chapter 16, verses 1 and 9. Both of them are similar, but the first one says, many are the plans of a man's heart, but it is the Lord that will bring forth the proper answer of the tongue. And in verse nine, it says basically the same thing. The many are the plans of a man's heart, but it is the Lord that establishes his steps. And I think that that passage isn't necessarily saying that it's a bad thing to make plans. It's just comforting you that either way, whether you know about it or not, he's establishing your steps and so go on the way, trusting that he is guiding you and making sense of your story in a way that you can't. I think that that line I said about clarity comes through action, not just by thinking and praying. Praying is really important.

Yeah. It's so good. It's so good. Kelsey, you are exceptional. I just want to commend you for the terrific work you do for the glory of God and the good of others, for, I don't know, just freeing believers from the crippling anxiety that comes with. I love how you put it, happy theology, these extra biblical narratives we've applied, discerning God's will for our callings and our careers. And just thank you for reminding us us to have a posture of seeking to bless rather than take from our employers. Friends, if you want to work with Kelsey and her team or learn more about what they do, you can learn more@thecalledcareer.com I have recommended Kelsey and her team to friends. I promise there's no affiliate link below. I just am a huge fan of Kelsey Kemp. Kelsey, thanks for hanging out with us today.

Thank you so much, Jordan.

This has honestly been something that I.

Hoped would happen one day, but I was too scared to even apply. So I'm grateful that you. You came around. Look at me, like, not actually living my message of like, don't be afraid, just go for it. And now you're here.

See, I love it.

Thanks, Kelsey. Thanks, man.

If you loved that episode and want to hear me ask the questions I didn't get a chance to ask Kelsey, let us know by leaving a review of the show on Apple or Spotify or by contacting us@jordanraynor.com contact. Thank you guys so much for tuning in.

I'll see you next week.

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