Kevin Cloud (Author of God and Hamilton)

The episode you're about to listen to was released back when the Mere Christians podcast was called the Call to Mastery. Now, if you love Mere Christians, you're still going to love these older episodes because the majority of each conversation focuses on how the gospel influences the work of our guests. With that disclaimer out of the way, please enjoy the episode. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I'm Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do exceptional, masterful work for the glory of God and the good of others. Each week I'm hosting a conversation with a Christian who is world class at whatever it is that they do. We talk about their path to mastery. We talk about their habits, their routines that make them productive, and. And we talk about how their faith influences their work. I'm over the moon, excited about today's episode with Kevin Cloud. Kevin was a four time successful church planter who recently made the shift to focusing his time and energy on writing about the intersection of faith and creativity. I met Kevin a few months ago when. After he sent me a copy of his book, God and Hamilton. Yes, like Alexander Hamilton and the musical phenomenon that his life inspired. And you know, usually when I see books like this, I'm skeptical of them. It's very rare that I've seen them done well. But I am obsessed with the musical. So I agreed to read the book and I was totally blown away. I feel like every conversation I have with people right now, I'm telling them they have to read this book. Honestly, it's one of the best books I've read probably in the last three, five years. Kevin is a truly masterful writer, so he was gracious enough to come onto the Call Mastery and talk about a few things. First, we spent some time talking about Alexander Hamilton's life and why it's both extraordinary, but also at the same time, thoroughly ordinary. We talked about what Kevin calls the five movements of creativity and the creative process. And perhaps my favorite part of the conversation was talking about how art and our cultural creations can create thin places. What Kevin defines as, quote, places where God seems to break through and what normally feels hidden becomes real and tangible. This is an excellent conversation. You're going to love it. Without further ado, here's my conversation with Kevin Cloud. Man, I'm so excited, Kevin, that we're hanging out. We're talking about my favorite topic, Hamilton. How could this episode not be fun? Thanks for being here, man.

Yeah, of course. Thanks for having me. I'm excited about the conversation.

Yeah. So for our Listeners who haven't seen the musical or read your book God and Hamilton, or read the Chernow biography that inspired the musical, can you give us the Cliff Notes of Alexander Hamilton's life?

Yeah, sure, of course. So Alexander Hamilton grows up in the Caribbean. He's a poor orphan kid that experiences all kind of difficulty and hardship through the early years of his life. His father abandons the family, mom dies when he's 11, and his life just doesn't really have any future possibilities. A hurricane comes and descends on the island he's living on and he writes this really beautiful response in a letter about this hurricane and the local newspaper picks it up and these businessmen read the letter and they see this enormous intellectual potential in the person who's written it. And so they put this money together and they send Alexander Hamilton to America to get his education. And he arrives right at the dawn of the American Revolution and he kind of is right place, right time, brilliant young leader, has all these great ideas about economy and about warfare and joins continental army and very quickly rises up to the ranks, becomes George Washington's right hand man and is off and running and becomes truly one of the most influential founding for fathers. Which is shocking because before the musical came out, nobody knew anything about him. Right. We'd completely forgotten about him.

It's crazy. I mean, I knew the basics of Hamilton's life, which basically meant he got killed by Burr in a duel. And that's basically like all I knew. So for you, did you see the musical and then read the famous Ron turnout biography or was it the other way around?

I saw the musical and again, I knew nothing about him. I knew absolutely nothing. I knew there was this hit musical out and was lucky enough to stumble into some tickets to see it on Broadway and went and saw it and just kind of walked out the theater in this stunned silence. I mean, just leaving the theater feeling like what in the world just happened just was stunning.

We're going to talk about that in a little bit. But first, so I think my listeners know this by now. I mean, I mentioned Hamilton and called to create. I talk about it incessantly. I have the Hamilton the Revolution book sitting behind me on my bookshelf, which is like my all time favorite read. So I have to ask, what are your favorite songs from the musical? Like what are your. What are your go tos?

Over and over. Yeah, yeah, there's so many. It's interesting because I'll kind of listen to it forever, forever, forever and then take a break. And then every time I Go back to it. I'm just like, oh, my gosh, these songs, they're so brilliant. So some of my favorites. I love Non Stop this song where they both come back to New York after the war and they're kind of hustling to kind of get their law practice going. Both Aaron Burr and Hamilton, and they're trying to figure out what this new country is going to look like. So I love that one. I love, oh my gosh, I love so many of them. The cabinet battle that I think is so creative and so clever, where they're having this rap battle and arguing about the different policies that the government is going to start. I love the Eliza Hamilton song where she sings about this affair that Hamilton has had and whether or not she's going to forgive him and how she could possibly forgive him and the shame that she feels and this hatred that she feels towards him in that moment. There's just so many songs that are so beautifully written but just connect so deeply with the human spirit, I think, and the very real issues that we deal with every day. And I think that's part of why it connects so deeply with audio.

So I don't want to forget that there may be members of the audience who have no idea that there's a musical about Hamilton which sounds crazy. Like, I think you'd have to be living under a rock for the last five years to not know this. But yeah, so give people the gist of the musical. Right? So, like, what is this? What makes it so special? What makes it so unique?

Yeah, so there's, I would say, a lot. I think, first of all, it's the first time a hip hop musical has been performed on Broadway. And so it's a completely new.

I didn't know that.

Yeah, completely new genre. Never been done before. In fact, it was interesting. We had some Hamilton cast members. They came through Kansas City a few months ago. And I work at an organization called the Culture House, which is a faith based arts conservatory program. So through the book, I've connected with some of the cast members and they came out to speak to our people, which was amazing. But one of the guys was telling me that he had a buddy that was kind of trying out for some or auditioning for some of the original parts and nobody had heard about it before. And this guy was telling the other guy, yeah, it's this hip hop musical about this founding father, Alexander Hamilton. And the guy was like, this sounds like the worst idea I've ever heard. Like, get out of there. That sounds like that's never gonna happen. Like, go do real. Go do something important. This isn't gonna work.

That's awesome. So have you always been a musical theater fan, by the way?

Yeah, so I graduated with a music degree from the University of Kansas. And I'm not an actor, but I'm a singer, songwriter. I love musicals. In fact, I'm writing my own musical right now. Really totally crazy side project. It's called Evil Clown Joe and the Singing and Dancing Bears. And it's a story about a bear.

That sounds as absurd as a hip hop musical about Alexander Hamilton.

So it's actually funny because everybody, when I tell them about it, they're like, oh, a kid's musical sounds great. And it's like, nope. It's actually a very dark comedy about this bear that wants to sing in a world that will not allow her to. And I'm having a ball writing those songs and trying to make that work. But, yeah, I've always been into musical theater. Always seen them when they came through town, you know, get to New York when I can to see him on Broadway. Love being able to do that. But I just love. I love music and I love story and I love dance. And I just think musical theater is a really unique place where all that comes together and can really impact us in some pretty deep ways if we have allow the story to touch us and do its work in us.

So I can't remember if we talked about this when you and I got on the phone a couple of months ago, but music was one of the first loves of my life. I played piano from a very early age. I was a vocal major at Florida State for about six weeks until I decided I wanted to make money. But I also loved musical theater in particular. So in high school, I always was in high school musicals. So I was in west side Story. I was the lead in Oklahoma. Yeah, I love it. And so I went to Florida City, and my first week on campus, they were having auditions for musical theater, like the musical theater program. And so I come from this, like, really small private school, graduating class of 34. I was the lead in all the musicals, thinking I'm amazing. I walked in and I literally stood there for two minutes. I was like, hard pass. I am way, way, way out of my league. All right, Kevin, talk a little bit about the work you're doing today. Right. So you've written. So I mean, you planted four churches, which is incredible. I want to talk about that shift in a minute. But you plant these churches now, you've Written this book, and now you're working for this really cool organization there in Kansas City. Tell us a little bit about the work you're doing right now.

Yeah, so I wrote the book about a year and a half ago, got in Hamilton, and when I wrote it, I was hoping it would open up some doors for me to travel and speak about Hamilton, which it has, and that's been really, really great. And I really love those opportunities. But the door that it opened that I didn't anticipate was organizations started reaching out to me and saying, hey, will you come and speak to our about creativity and faith? Christian theater groups would call me. And I've had so many conversations with people who are leading Christian theater companies around the country who are saying, I don't ever get encouraged. Nobody sees value in the work I'm doing. If anything, the church kind of looks down at this creative work that I'm doing. And we just need voices in our community that are telling us, hey, this is important and this matters and this is worthy and this is spiritual, and so will you come out and talk to us about that? And so Christian theater groups, fine arts colleges, church staffs, even that wanted to learn more about that intersection of Christian creativity and faith. And so I started speaking about that. And for me, it was kind of a convergence. Again, I've always been a creative person. I'm a musician, singer, songwriter. Some of my most transcendent moments have happened when I've been playing music. I remember I was in a kind of an alternative rock band in college, and I remember moments playing drums at bars and Lawrence where I felt so present in the moment and so filled with joy in the moment and just this absolute sense of transcendency as I was playing music. Same thing. I did a jazz trio after college and similar type moments. When I sit down at my piano and I write songs for this musical that I'm working on right now, I just feel this joy and this life pouring out of me. So I've really been convicted and challenged about this idea that living creatively, it's what it means to be fully human and fully alive. And it's a central part of who God is and God's character. And it's a central part of what it means for us to be made in the image of God. And so after I started traveling and doing these talks, the Lord just was calling me down this path of working with creatives and trying to be a voice that inspires and encourages people that are doing creative work. And like you said, I Planted four churches. And so I've always been a starter. So I thought I was going to go start another, like, nonprofit around that idea somehow. And I had a really good buddy of mine that came to me and he said, hey man, you've been starting stuff for 20 years. Why don't you go find someone who's done something and like, join their team for a while and kind of catch your breath? And oh, it was great. And I had never even thought about that possibility. But when he gave me that advice, I started looking around Kansas City and I actually did have some relationship with this community called the Culture Culture House. And they're this amazing. It's a faith based arts conservatory. So we have classes for kids and camps and performances for kids. But we also have a professional division as well where we have a dance company called Sterling. We have professional theater that happens around town. We perform on some of the best stages in Kansas City. And this place is just doing amazing work in theater, in art, in music, and in dance. And so I've kind of come on their staff as the director of spiritual life. And I'm investing in relationships and building bridges with churches in town and just trying to be kind of an advocate for the work they're doing and supporting this. This amazing, creative work that this organization is doing. I love it. Hey.

So I was thinking about this part of the interview. I love Hamilton too. I love this musical. I wrote about it called the Great, but I never thought I should write an entire book on this topic. Why do you do this?

Yeah. So I saw the musical and again left the theater with this just profound sense of experiencing God's presence. And I kind of have an obsessive compulsive personality. And so I got everything I could get my hands on that had to do with Hamilton. So I went and bought the Chernobyl book first. And I read the Chair now book. And there were scenes in the musical where in the theater, not only me, but everybody around me is just weeping because of these moments that happen in Alexander Hamilton's life that are so moving or so heartbreaking or so profound. And that was happening as I'm watching the musical Home. And I read the Chernobyl book and the same thing happens. There are these scenes where I'm just so moved and so touched by this man's faith, by this man's love for his wife, by this man's brokenness, by the successes and the. And the heartaches and the failures that he experiences. And I just keep having these. These moments where I feel like God is challenging me or speaking to me or communicating to me about how important this person's life is and how important this person's faith is. And not only his faith, but Eliza's faith as well. In fact, in many ways, Eliza Hamilton.

Hey, for those who don't know, who's Eliza?

Yeah. Eliza Hamilton was Alexander Hamilton's wife. She actually, after Hamilton was shot and killed by Aaron Burr, who was the sitting vice president at the time. I mean, just a stunning story when you think about, like, we think politics right now is out of hand. Yeah, the vice president shot and killed people. We killed people. It's crazy. It was crazy. But Eliza lives another 50 years and just lives a remarkable life. She fights for abolition, she raises money for the Washington Monument, and then kind of her crowning achievement is this orphanage that she builds. And it kind of was born out of this Alexander Hamilton growing up and really losing both of his parents at a young age and living with a deep shame about being an orphan. As he became kind of an influential founding father, there was a lot of tension with his background and a lot of the other founding fathers who came from wealthy families and well to do families. And a lot of times Alexander Hamilton felt shame and was even teased and bullied. And the other founding fathers really looked down on him because of his orphan status. And so I love the ide. In fact, I write about it in my last chapter on redemption in the book. And I love the idea that Eliza feels this pain from Alexander's life, this brokenness from Alexander's life, and then redeems it. Right. She does something beautiful with it. She goes and she starts an orphanage that then impacts hundreds of children. In fact, it still is in existence today under the name of Graham Windham in New York City. They're still doing work today reaching out to families in need in New York City. And I just love that idea that Eliza felt really called by God to do this work and just in a remarkable way changed hundreds and now, you know, 200 years later, thousands and thousands of lives.

So, Kevin, you're a talented creative, you're talented musician, you're a talented entrepreneur. But I got to say, after reading God in Hamilton, I think your superpower is writing like this was. This is one of the best written books I've read in a very, very long time. Super well researched, super well written. And listen, like, I'm a nonfiction writer myself. Right. So I have so many selfish questions about how you pulled this thing off. Right. So can you talk through the process we got a lot of people in our audience who are aspiring authors. Can you talk through the process from the moment you got the idea to write this book to the moment the manuscript was done?

Yeah. So as a pastor, I had a little bit of a head start because I first turned into a sermon series and just started preaching through it. And so I got some immediate sense of what works, what doesn't work, how it's coming together, the ways it's not coming together. And so that was super helpful to do that. I think my congregants got really tired of hearing stories about Hamilton and the musical, and they're like, oh, God, another sermon on Hamilton. But, you know, my secret plan that I hadn't told him at the time was it was turning into a book. And so that. That helped me get a good start. And then I just had a lot of people that gave me a lot of really great feedback. I mean, there were probably three or four different people who shaped and molded this book in really significant ways.

Stop there for a second. So when you were getting feedback from people, were you getting feedback like. Like, when I write, I have two or three people that I'm getting feedback on, but I get it in, like, really. It's very rapid. Right. So I finish a chapter, I send it off to Kara, my wife, and Tony, one of my best friends, and give feedback. Is that how you did it?

Yeah. So the people in my world. For this project, I actually hired a manuscript critique. This is my first book that I've ever written. And so I hired someone to read through, not the entire manuscript, but she read maybe three or four chapters pretty in depth, and then kind of skimmed the rest. And she gave me really great, just kind of big picture feedback on what I was doing well and what I needed to work on as a writer. And that was super helpful.

What were some of those things, you.

Know, as a pastor and a preacher? She said, you're kind of wordy as a writer. And so, you know, she says you write long, was her phrase. And so she really talked about economy of words, making sure that every word is absolutely necessary. So she would talk about how I would have a paragraph that had five sentences, and it really only needed two sentences, or I would have a story that would be three paragraphs. And really it only needed one paragraph. And so I did a lot of work of going back and just editing out every single unnecessary. And trying to write with an economy of words. So that was super helpful. The other person that was really helpful in shaping the book was an agent that signed me for this book project, and she went through all the chapters and really helped me focus the story on Hamilton and his life and our life and how that connection happens. The original manuscript was actually a lot longer, and I would start with the Hamilton image, but then I might jump off into another movie I saw, and then I might jump into its personal experience from my life, and it would kind of be all over the place. And she kind of really challenged me and said, make it way tighter. Make it connect with what this book is about, which is Hamilton and our spiritual lives. And if you make that connection in each chapter in a very short and sweet way, that's what your readers are looking for with this book. So that was super helpful as well, to kind of really get focused on what I wanted to write and what this book was about. The third thing I would say is I went to a workshop that was so helpful, and the workshop basically said, when you're writing, you're really writing for one person, and it's you. And if you write something that connects with you and that moves you and that challenges you and transforms you, then and only then do you have something to offer to the world. And so I think I know for me as a writer, I will always and forever have this voice in the back of my head that's saying, more people need to buy your book. Why aren't more people interested in your book? You're not valuable if you don't sell thousands and thousands and thousands of copies. You're a failure if you don't make this best seller. I mean, all these ridiculous things that are going on in the back of my head. Right. And she really helped silence some of those voices and be able to say, if I'm going to write this project and it changes me, then that has to be enough. And if one person outside of that reads this book, then that has to be enough.

Quoting Hamilton there, that would be enough, right?

That's right. And for me, I teach about this. So I travel around, do these workshops on creativity and faith. And I have five principles on how to live out our best creative life. And one of the principles is what we're talking about right now, this idea that we are called to do the creative work we're called to do, and then to surrender the results to God. And I have such a hard time surrendering the results. I want thousands of people to buy and read and pass my book along to others. And I want to get onto Amazon and see how high my book is ranked. And I'M really kind of obsessed with that at times. And when I'm really unhealthy, that's where I go. But when I'm a healthy person, I can say, you know what? I wrote the book, I did what I was called to do, and I was faithful to that creative act, and that's all that I can control. And whether this book sells a few hundred copies or a few thousand copy or a million copies, it has nothing to do with me at this point. It's out into the world, and I can hustle and I can try and I can do what I can do to market, and I can make connections. But ultimately the impact of this book has very little to do with me at this point. And the more I'm at rest with that and can surrender to that, the more healthy and whole, wholehearted of a human being.

I write a lot about this topic in particular, because it's something that I struggle with so much, right? This idea that, yes, it's this concept of trust, hustle and rest that I wrote about in called the create. Right, this idea that, you know, yes, we're called to work hard, work heartily, as unto the Lord, but we're also told over and over again in Scripture that we do not produce results. I can't remember the exact reference in Chronicles, but it's a verse I think about a lot. Well, and honor come from you alone, for you rule over everything. Power and might are in your hand and at your discretion. Lord, you make people great and give them strength, Right? So, yeah, we're called to work hard and write great books and do our very best, but at the end of the day, the results are in his hand. So it's not this let go, let God, like, I think that's bad, incomplete advice most of the time, but it's this. Work hard. And yes, at the end of the day, be able to take a step back and look at your work and say, I've done my very best and the results are in the Lord's hands.

That's right.

That's right.

I think just to follow up on that, I think oftentimes we really need to ask the question, why am I working so hard and why do I want this so desperately? And why am I longing for this to happen? Because more times than not in my life, it's not for God's glory, it's not for God's kingdom, it's not for the other people's benefit. It's because I have this voice inside of my head that says, you will be more worthy and more valuable and more loved if you're more influential or if your work reaches more people. And it really is about my own junk and my own identity and my own struggle with all of that. And so I think that's an important question that we probably have to do battle with daily is why am I doing the work?

Well, it's the question that Aaron Burr asked Hamilton in our shared favorite song nonstop in the musical. Why do you write. Yeah, like you're running out of time. Right. Day and night, like you're running out of time. I could say the rest of it, but I won't. I wrote about this and called to create. Like, you know, the answer for Hamilton was pretty clear. Right. Like he was writing nonstop because he was. This is my take. You can, you're more of a Hamilton expert than me. But like he was desperately trying to prove to the world that he was worthy.

That's right.

The grace that he had been shown in this new life that he had been given here in the United States. Right. Like that was his pride. His driver was what they sing in the musical. The world's gonna know your name.

Yeah.

Would you agree that that was like the primary driver in his life?

Yeah, I think so. I think that especially coming to America from a poor background as an orphan kid, trying to make his way into the society that he didn't really belong in. In fact, it's really interesting. One of the history books I read talked about how what Hamilton accomplished would never have happened in any other country in the history of the world because all these other countries at the time, they were built on your family, they were built on your reputation, they were built on your wealth. And Hamilton had none of that. So America truly was one of the original meritocracies where he shows up and he is a leader and he is smart and he's intelligent and so he's able to build a life for him and build opportunity for himself. But I think that he. And again, I'm by no means a Hamilton expert, but I do think he lived with a deep insecurity. And I think he was constantly trying to prove himself worthy, trying to make a name for himself, trying to prove that he belonged with all these other founding fathers that had so much wealth and so much influence. There's the other great song where Hamilton and Washington are arguing about whether or not he can. He wants to fight in the war and Washington wants him as his, basically as running the army, as his right hand man. Running the army, running the kind of army. And Hamilton wants to go on the battlefield because he wants to go make a name for himself. And he's not going to make a name for himself as an administrator running the army. He's going to make a name for himself as a hero if he actually becomes a leader of men in the army. And so I think that was constantly there, this pressure, this insecurity, this desire to become more, to rise above his current setting and to feel like he was more.

I'd never made that connection in the musical before because, like, one of my unanswered questions in the musical, and maybe it's answered in the Chernow biography, is like, like, why was Hamilton so obsessed with this idea of serving in the military? But I think you nailed it, right? Like, how is he going to make a name for himself as George Washington's number two?

Right.

Like, he had to go. He had to go do something brave and heroic on the battlefield. I was.

Well, and the interesting thing about that, not to interrupt, you know, you're fine. Washington finally gives him the command of the troops right. In the final battle, right. Where they actually defeat the British. And that is what makes a huge name. And he goes back to New York now a war hero because he was the one that led the battle where the British surrendered. And so in a very ironic way, he finally got what he wanted at the very end and it catapulted his career in New York as a war hero and helped him become the influential leader that he was.

Yeah. So for all the reasons you've already mentioned.

Right.

Like Hamilton's story is really remarkable. Right. This kid growing up in desolate poverty in the Caribbean grows to become know Secretary of the Treasury. We have Hamilton in our pockets. Well, I don't, because I'm under the age of 40 and I don't carry cash, but you get the gist. But like, so that's extraordinary, right? But like, in another sense, I was talking about this the other day, like, his story is the most ordinary story ever, Right. It is a story of ambition for all the wrong reasons. It's the story of the Tower of Babel. It's the story of, I would argue, 21st century Americans of just. Just desperately feeling this need to work hard and to achieve as a means, I think, of covering up sin. I mean, we would never articulate it as that. Right, of course, right. But we all live with the sense that there's something deeply wrong with us, that we've been graced with things that we don't deserve, which is true. And we feel the need to earn it. It is the anti gospel that we fight day in, day out.

Right? That's right.

How do you help yourself? How do you remind yourselves practically of these truths that your identity and your ultimate worth isn't found in the of your next endeavor, but in Christ alone?

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know either.

That's why I'm asking you.

It's a daily, hourly, minute by minute battle. And there are seasons in my life where I have a deep understanding and a deep sense of presence of God and His love in my life, and understanding very clearly that I'm his beloved. And there's nothing that I have to do to earn that or to accomplish to earn that. And there's times where I live there, and then there's more times where I just feel overwhelmed by this need to become more than I am, by this need to produce, by this need to achieve, by this need to accomplish and connecting these really unhealthy dots between. If I do more of that, then I will be more loved, more accepted, more whatever. And it's just. It's a lie. It's the human battle, and it's the journey that I think every single one of us are on at one level or another other. And I don't know if that battle ever goes away.

Yeah, I don't know that it does either. And I think. I think we grow closer to the Lord as we fight that tension. Right. And fight and fight that battle. So I want to go. I want to go backwards. I want to go back to the process of writing for a second. By the way, when you talked about writing for one person, I thought that was really interesting. I've thought a lot about that. Like, when I'm writing books, I have a very particular person in mind when I'm. When I'm thinking about writing. I've never heard somebody say, though, that that one person should be you. I think that's interesting. I've actually thought about this at this podcast. I'm asking very selfish questions. These are questions I want to learn. And I'm just hoping and praying that other people are interested in their answers, too. So, because I'm a writer, back to selfish questions.

Great, let's do it.

Where's your favorite place to write?

Yeah, I have a basement, and it's kind of an older house, and I have this beautiful stone foundation, and I just kind of hole up down there. And I'm not an early morning person. You read all these people, they're like Oh, I get up at 4 o' clock in the morning and I go, right, that's me. Yeah. I'm just like, nope, never going to happen. That is not my bag. But for Hamilton, the book that I wrote, it was really kind of put the kids to bed and go downstairs at 8 or 8:30 and sometimes crank for 3, 4 hours type of a thing and just work until I'm ready for bed and getting tired and go to bed. That was my rhythm for that book. I actually had a lot of momentum for that book because I signed in with an agent and she was basically saying, hey, this is a time sensitive. This issue is not going to be very relevant three years from now. So we got to get this sucker out now. I had a lot of motivation and a lot of pressure on me, which also helps for me in the writing process. I'm not one of those people, you know, you hear people that talk about, like, get up every day and just write 500 words and man, that's just not how I work creatively. I get an idea and I'm kind of, like I said, obsessive compulsive. And I hit it hard for as long as it takes to do that project. And you know, when I was doing the musical, it was the same thing. My wife would always joke, like we'd be sitting having dinner and I'd be spacing out about something and she would kind of tell herself, like, oh, yeah, he's off at the circus again and he's figuring out his bear story and. But.

Story of my life.

Yeah, yeah, but so that's, that's how I work and that's that I feel like that is what works for me is kind of intense pockets of really getting after a project and hitting it hard and then moving on to whatever the next project I want to be about is. Yeah.

I think especially when something's a side project. Right. Like. Like a book is for a lot of people. Like God in Hamilton was for you. I do think that there is this extra, I don't know, extra something that allows you to spend more hours on the project just because you're so motivated to get it. Like, it's the thing that you're most excited about. It's the thing that you're thinking about when you're not thinking about anything else. Right. And making creative connections with it. So, you know, whereas I can't do my typical work from at nighttime if I had that extra motivation, you definitely can. So I look at a book like, got a Hamilton? I'm like, oh my gosh, how in the world did this guy write something so great as his first book? But then I remember you spent years writing sermons, right? So, like, you've been honing this craft of writing for a long time. So I'm curious, like, what specific things have you done throughout your career to intentionally hone that craft of writing and communicating these gospel centric truths?

Yeah, I mean, I don't think any of it is groundbreaking, but it's. As a preacher, certainly listening to great preachers and learning about what works, I would typically kind of listen to my sermons and spend some time each week kind of getting feedback from other people. Is that hard for you? I don't really like the sound of my own voice.

Yeah, I hate the sound of my voice.

I don't like that. But I just knew it was part of the process and it's how you get better at stuff. I read a book once, it was talking about a filmmaker. In fact, it might have been your book. Now that I tell you this story, you tell me if it was. But it was about this filmmaker who loved making films. And one night he was up late and one of his movies came on and he was watching this movie that he had made and there was a scene in it that didn't work. And he was watching this scene and it was almost like a. He looked at it and it was almost like with this curiosity of like, why didn't that scene work? I wonder what I could have done differently there. I wonder why that didn't hit the way I thought it was going to hit. But so there's a constant, I think, evaluating your work and honing your craft and whether that's feedback from others, whether that's your own internal dialogue of figuring out what you thought connected with people and what didn't connect with people. That's one of my other points that I make in my workshop. When I talk about your best creative life. One of the points is you have to hone your craft. And I have a good friend of mine that's a brilliant communicator and he says that you have to do as much work on the back end of your craft as you do doing the original creative work as far as getting better and honing and challenging yourself. Or else you just keep kind of staying on that same level your entire life where you're not improving and you're not getting better.

Yeah. So this is what my next book is all about. Right? This is what Master of One is about. How do we one find the Thing that God has created us to do uniquely well in the world. How do we focus on that thing and say no to everything else else. And then once we've committed to our one thing, how do you get world class at it? And in chapter eight of the book, I write about this, this concept that Anders Ericsson made famous in his Rules of Purposeful Practice of like embracing uncomfortability, right? So like masters always push the envelope, they always raise the bar. They're always doing something that is outside of their comfort zone. But I think a part of that, that I haven't really connected with that particular concept is this idea of like listening to your own stuff stuff and like reading. Like, I don't, I don't like reading things that I've written in the past. Like I've heard Aaron Sorkin, my all time favorite writer, talk about this a lot. Like he's never turned in a script for a screenplay that he doesn't want to like immediately rewrite. I feel that way about books, right? I feel way about speeches. Like I hate watching speeches of myself. But it's critical, right? Like how else are you going to critique and, and make things better? So did you do that with God and Hamilton? Did you go back and reread the book? Like, oh man, I, I wish I changed that.

No, I haven't reread the book yet. I probably will at some point. I mean, I've read parts of it. I've never sat down and just kind of read the whole thing. But I did it. I do it all the time with my sermons. And again, as I travel and speak about the Hamilton stuff, I do it all the time and I rewatch videos and I get feedback from others. I mean, again, this buddy of mine, his name's Isaac and he is just a brilliant communicator and I actually had him. I had a pretty big speaking gig this past summer and I said, hey man, I've given this talk to like 20 times. We just watch this last video before I go to this other one and just see if there's anything. And I just kind of assumed he would read it or watch the video and be like, yeah man, it's great. Like maybe this or this. Just real small things. And he comes back with like these huge changes that he suggests that I would make. And I've again, I'm like, I've done this 20 times and I didn't see any of that. And I made some of those changes and it was so much better on the other end. It was so much better.

So that talk, is that the five principles of this creative.

No, that's my God in Hamilton sermon. So that's when I go to churches and talk about the book and Hamilton, Hamilton and connect this, this idea of the transform, transformational power story.

I want to talk about these kind of five movements of creativity. You and I have corresponded about that via a little bit. So, you know, a lot of people who are listening to this episode have read my book called To Create. They've got this like baseline theology of creativity and how when we create, we're revealing the character of God. But I think you have like a really interesting, like, framework for thinking about this. Talk us through that work and kind of those, those five movements. Isn't that what you call them?

The five movements? Yeah, there's five movements. And this is my next book that I'm working on. So I'm hoping to get this out into the world hopefully in the next year or two. And it really is born out of my own experience as a creative person and what I've learned, what I've experienced. And then as I've been teaching these workshops, you know, dozens if not hundreds of conversations with people who are doing really, really beautiful creative work and asking them similar questions and having these ideas fine tuned and whatnot. And so I'll just go quickly through the five, five movements and I hope I can remember them all. Take your time.

Hey, take your time. This is what I love.

I love this. I keep saying I need to come up with an acronym because I always have a hard time remembering all five of them. So the first one is we have to connect creativity with calling. We have to see creative living and creative work as absolutely central to what it means to be made in the image of God. The idea which you wrote about in called to create, where Genesis 1. The very first thing we learn about God is that God is a creative creator God. And the whole point of Genesis 1, we try to turn it into this argument about science versus creation and all this nonsense that I think has very little to do with the original intent of this person who writes this beautiful poem about the creative work of God. Right? And so we have to connect that. And that's something we miss a lot. I spoke at a national conference once for Christian Youth Theater. This was last summer. And all week long I talked about how when you're doing creative work on the stage, this is deeply spiritual work and you're honoring God with this kind of work. And at the end of the week, week, probably a 16 year old girl comes up to me and she just thanks me for what I shared. And she says, you know, I've always wanted to write a novel. But she said, but it never felt spiritual enough. And she said, I felt like I should become a missionary or a pastor or do something really spiritual with my life. And writing a novel never felt like that. But she said, after hearing you this week, you helped me give myself permission to go chase that passion and to go do that and to see that is spiritual work. And, you know, I just read a novel recently that was beautiful and powerful, and it transformed me. And what's more spiritual than that, than putting a story out in the world that can change people's lives? So that's the first one. We've got to connect creativity with calling the next one. Okay, in order. What's the next one? The next one is when we. We have to identify resistance and overcome it. So resistance is a concept that I rip off from Steven Pressfield, who's a brilliant writer and done a ton of great books about this, but he basically says that every single time we create, there's this voice in our heads. This voice or a force that's working against us and trying to keep us from doing that creative work work. And it's really powerful. When I go and I do these workshops, every time when we get to this point, I give everybody time to kind of journal, what is the voice telling you about your creative work? And then people will start weeping as they share out loud these voices that say, I'm not smart enough, I'm not talented enough. From women. Oftentimes, especially in the theater world, they'll say, I don't have the look. I'm not pretty enough. I'm not thin enough. I can't say anything that someone else isn't already said, or say it better than someone else. I'm working with a group of dancers at the Kolch House right now, and we just had this conversation yesterday, and she said that her resistance tells her that you're not even saying anything. You're just dancing. So how important could that be? These voices of resistance can be so unique and so sinister to the way that we're created and to the work that we're created to do. The trick is we have to identify that resistance and then overcome. So every time I sit down at the piano and when I say every time, I mean every single time I sit down and write a song, there's this voice that says, this melody is garbage. This. This chord progression isn't any Good. This song isn't going to stay with people. This is a dumb lyric. Like, you don't know what you're doing. Leave the musicals to the dear Evan Hansen people. And you stay in your lane and, like, you know, do what you're. What you know. You don't know how to write a musical. This is a. This is a crazy psych project. You're going to fail. It's going to be a joke. You're going to waste all this time. Like, these are the voices that are going on in my head, and when I'm being a mature person, I can recognize those voices for what they are, and I can almost welcome them to the conversation. And I can recognize, oh, yeah, this is resistance. And this happens every time. And now that I've identified it, I need you to go resistance, sit over in the corner. Because I've got a song that I need to write. And then I get after the work that I'm called to do. And so that, to me, is the second step and a really important one in the process. The third movement, then, is to do the work. It is put the butt in the chair and work for a long, long time. I actually had a chance to meet with Max Zucchedo once. My family in Texas goes to his church and have gotten to know him a little bit. And so I had a chance to meet with him to talk about writing and creativity. And he has one picture frame in his office. One quote in his office. It's in a frame, and it says something to the effect of, so you want to be a writer, Put your butt in that seat and stay there for a really, really, really long time. Time. And that was, like, the only quote in his entire office. And I think that's right, that if we want to do creative work, then we have to be really disciplined and we have to work really hard. And we have to be willing to spend hours and hours and hours sitting in a chair writing or composing or painting or whatever it is. So that's the third one. And then the fourth movement is to hone your craft. And we've already talked about this a little bit, but this is the idea that we have to. Then on the back end of our work, we've got to go and learn from that, and we've got to sharpen our saw, and we've got to get better at the craft that we're working at. And if we don't, we're just going to stay at that same level of good, but maybe not great or adequate, but not excellent. And I hope that my second book is a lot better than my first book. And I hope that my next musical is better than the first musical that I write. And you just have to keep honing it and getting better. And then the final one we've also talked about is to surrender the results to God, that we are faithful to the work we're called to do. And then we surrender the results and we say, okay, God, I am doing the creative work. The image that I'm using for this book and for these workshops is that every time we create, we send a ripple out into the world. And this ripple has this enormous potential for good, both in our lives, but in other people's lives as well. And so we send the ripple out in the world, and then we surrender and we say, lord, if you want to use this to impact 10 lives, praise be to God. If you want to use this to impact 100 people, praise be to God. But that's not up to us. The impact isn't really up to us.

Amen to that. Hey, so I think it was in the introduction of Got a Hamilton. You had this section that, like, really made me stop and pause and think. You said, quote, this musical in this story draws people into the very presence of God and his kingdom among us. It has become and continues to be a thin place. Places where God seems to break through, and what normally feels hidden becomes real and tangible and quite quote, how does art. And maybe you need to explain what you mean by thin places, but how does art usher us into thin places?

Yeah, so the idea of a thin place is from ancient Celtic spirituality. And it's the idea that the kingdom of God is not up in the heavens millions of miles away, but it is here among us. But that there's this veil that separates the reality that we live in and the kingdom of God and God's presence among us. But then at times, that veil becomes very, very thin. And all of a sudden, we can see things that typically are hidden from us or typically that aren't able to be seen. And so I think nature oftentimes can be a thin place. I mean, I think a lot of different things can serve as a thin place. But I think art specifically does that work. And maybe it ties back theologically to the idea that God is a creative God and that God as a creative God, when we enter into that work, we're doing something so spiritual and so central to who God is that a connection happens. Something opens up in us, something open up in the world that we live in that maybe keeps things from being hidden. That maybe draws us a little bit closer to the life that we're created to live. I think art also becomes a thin place because it gets past our intellect a lot and it gets to our emotion, it gets to our heart, it's to our soul. There's things that happen when I go see musicals that don't happen when I read a book or when I listen to a sermon. Intellectually. Now, books and sermons can do that same work as well, obviously. But I think there's something about music and art and emotion that opens up a space for us that we don't normally live in and we don't normally encounter. And I think it's why theaters are packed when they have when they're well written stories and why movies are sold out when they're stories that connect with people. And it's why people weep when they stand in front of beautiful paintings. And there's something in art that just connects so deeply with us and connects with who God created us to be.

I love that. All right, three questions I love to ask anyone who comes on the show. First, what book or books do you gift the most?

That's a good question. I think I would say Donald Miller, and specifically he has a book called I Always Script the title. I think it's A Thousand Years and a Million Miles or something, something like that. But it's a book about story and it's a book about looking at our lives and asking ourselves, are we living a good story? And I've read it probably three times cover to cover, and I've given it out to a bunch of people. So I love Donald Miller. I think he's doing amazing work and really, really love that book.

Yeah, I haven't read that one. I obviously read Story brand. Great resource for any marketer, but I'll have to check that out.

I think it's a million miles in a thousand years.

I think Million miles in a thousand years. Something like it.

Something like that.

What one person would you most like to hear talk about the intersection of their faith and their work and creativity on this podcast?

That's a great question.

It's basically a ploy for me to get people to make introductions or have excuses to go ask people to be on the show?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love it. I love it. So the one person. So, you know, there are so many brilliant writers on Broadway right now that are doing incredible work. I think the guys that do that did. Dear Evan Hansen, I was hoping you were gonna say that, yeah, just did a. That story. I just saw it a couple months ago on Broadway and I just wept, you know, during multiple parts of that story. And it's come to Kansas City in October and I'm forcing my children. I have two teenage boys who hate musicals that tweet brought them to musicals and they fight us every time. And I'm just like, you're going, it's. End of conversation. You have to come see.

I mean, that musical in particular. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's.

And those guys have done, you know, they did, they did Greatest Showman. Right? Showman. They did La La Land. I mean, they've done just beautiful, beautiful works the last couple years.

I'm all in on these guys. And I heard maybe you were about to say this. I heard one of them is a person of faith. One of them is a believer.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Their names are escaping me right now. Their names. I'm so bad with names, but yeah, one of them is a person of faith. And it's Justin. Justin.

We're going to track Justin down. Consider this the starting of the petition to get Justin on the call to Mastery.

Yeah, I'm totally spacing on his last name.

I could do a three hour episode on the Greatest Showman and Dear Evan Hansen, easily.

I mean, they are, they are. I mean, the song you will be found and Dear Evan Hansen is. It's the gospel, right?

It's so good.

It's the gospel. And so I'd love to hear kind of a little bit more about his faith and about his journey and about how his faith intersects with his creative process. And I think he's one of the best songwriters on the planet right now. I mean, to be frank, I think that those, those two movies and that one musical are just absolutely remarkable.

Yeah, they're great. All right, last question. What one piece of advice would you give to somebody who is pursuing mastery of their vocation? In particular a creative vocation or a writing, specifically something that you've really mastered. What one piece of advice would you give to them?

Yeah, I think, I would say. I think that the last step that we talked about in that workshop that I teach is personally the hardest one for me, but also one of the most transformative. And it's surrendering the results to God. And it's doing the creative work you're called to do and doing it the best that you can and giving everything you can to the craft and to do it, not believing that it's going to make you Rich or famous or influential. But to do it because you love the moment where you're creating. I mean, for me, when I'm at the piano and a lyric comes together or a song happens, it's one of the most life giving, joyful moments of my life. Same thing when I'm on a computer and I'm typing. And to me, one of the favorite parts of the writing process is when you're writing and all of a sudden things start happening that you didn't expect or words start coming out that you didn't anticipate. Just that creative process. It's giving everything you can to that creative process and then surrendering the results and knowing that it's 0.0001% of people who become the best sellers, who become the famous ones, who become wealthy doing this kind of work, 99.9999% of us, you know, we just live normal lives and we do the creative work we're called to do and we do it faithfully. And the more we can surrender that dream, I guess, or that ambition or that desire for own self validation, the more we can surrender that and just get after the creative work that we're called to do. I think the more healthy and whole and content and satisfied we will be as creative people.

And I think too, like, I've thought a lot about this, a lot, and I write about a master of one. But when we get world class at our craft. I didn't say world famous. Those are two very different things. But when we are so good and we are administering the ministry of excellence through our work, I think those moments that you described in your scene at the piano, are you like, you really figured out that lyric or you really figured out that line in the book? I feel this sometimes. I think that's what people mean when they say they feel God's pleasure like it is knowing that you are doing the thing you were created to do so extraordinarily well, not as a means of making yourself famous, but as a means of revealing the character, character of an exceptional creative God and loving neighbor himself. That is what it means to be human. That's what it means for work to be worshiped. So Kevin, I just want to commend you. You talk about the ministry of excellence. You live this out. I'm so impressed with your work. Thank you for doing work that matters. Not just planning churches, right, but talking about somebody like Hamilton and serving the community of Kansas City and helping them embrace their creativity. Your work matters. It's important and I'm grateful for you. Hey, if you're listening, the book is God and Hamilton. I'm not kidding when I say this is one of the best books I've read in a very, very, very long time. I'm really excited to read it again. Go pick up a copy. Kevin, thanks so much for hanging out with me.

Yeah, thanks so much Jordan. I really appreciate the time and love the conversation.

It took every ounce of work willpower I had not to rap Hamilton during that entire episode with my friend Kevin Cloud. Hey, that was fun. I hope you guys enjoyed that episode as much as I did. Even if you're not a Hamilton fan, Hamilton fans had the time of their life during that episode. Hopefully the rest of you guys enjoyed it as well. Hey, if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to the Call to Mastery so you never miss another episode in the future. If you're already subscribed, do me a Favor and take 30 seconds to review the podcast. If you have no idea how to do either of those things, go to jordanraynor.com podcast. We've made it super easy for you to do both of them. Hey, before you go, I've got another shorter conversation I want to share with you guys. As you all know, as an author myself, I'm an avid reader. I read all the time, usually ready, reading a couple of books, listening to one in my car, reading one on my Kindle. And a few months ago I started sharing with you all some of the books that I've added to my personal reading list. So as you guys, most of you guys are probably receiving my weekly devotional email. I have a weekly Faith and Work devotional that goes out every Monday morning at 8am Eastern. By the way, if you're not subscribed to that, you can go ahead and sign up for free at jordanright. And I've been sharing with you guys some of my reading recommendations and I recently sat down with the author of one of those books that I've added my reading list. His name is Kosti Hinn and he's the nephew of the world famous televangelist Benny Hinn. And Casti's written this fascinating book called God, Greed and the Prosperity Gospel which is which essentially exposes the lies of his uncle and the other leaders of the Prosperity Gospel movement. And this teaching. This is a fantastic gospel centric book. I've loved getting into it. So I recently sat down with Kosti and I just asked him a few questions about the book to help you guys wrap your head around what it is and decide if you want to read it. So, without further ado, here's my conversation with Kasti Hin. Costi. Thanks so much for hanging out with me, man. I appreciate it.

Yeah, thanks for having me on, Jordan.

Yeah. So I'm really looking forward to this conversation about your book, God, Greed, and the Prosperity Gospel. So out of all the books that I've endorsed to my audience, I think this is like one of the most popular ones. Like, when you just judge by clicks and shares and comments on Instagram, people seem to be really resonating with this title. But for those listening to this episode of the podcast who don't know about this book, tell us what God Created in the Prosperity Gospel is all about.

Yeah, it's a book I wrote because I came out of the Prosperity Gospel, grew up in it, worked in it, was behind the scenes in it, and it is one of the most prevalent issues when I talk to leaders and pastors and church influencers around the world. There might be a lot of noise in the US about certain issues, but around the world, it's unanimous that the Prosperity Gospel is one of, if not the most threatening system to the health of the church, the health of church leaders, and of course, people who leaders are serving.

So, and the book itself, talk us through kind of the. The narrative arc of the book. Right. So you tell a lot of your story. A lot of the story of it was your uncle Benny Hinn. Correct. It's part narrative driven, but you also get into some expository teaching against the Prosperity Gospel. Can you just give our listeners kind of an argument arc of the track they're going to follow as they read the book?

Absolutely. The beginning I wrote on purpose to be really fast. And so you're right into the storyline. I'm taking you into one of the crusades I was at when I was a young man. And the climax is rising. Quickly. You'll get my full story, all the details of my life, the lifestyle, the inner workings of a lot of things I saw. And then I wanted to take readers through the questions that I had as well. And so, so we'll ask big questions. You're going to see certain things and read certain things, and in your mind, readers will begin to assess and go, well, that's not right. Well, that doesn't seem odd. Or maybe they might even say, I used to believe that, or I always thought that was actually true. So I'll take readers there and then after the storyline concludes, and for some, it'll have broken down their belief system potentially for others, it'll have raised questions they never had. I'll begin to answer those from the Bible. And that's the teaching aspect in the final few chapters.

Chapters.

Yeah. I love it. I. I can't remember if it was the introduction or the first chapter, but whatever it was the first part of the book. I read it and I'm like, this is just a fascinating story. Right? I mean, it's a wildly compelling story, but that also sets up some, like, really core theological questions that I think the entire church has to wrestle with. So. All right, Kosti, who is this book for? I mean, I know this is every publisher's favorite question. I'm sure Zondervan asked you this question. Is this for. Is this truly for everybody? Like, who's the audience for God? Great. In the prosperity gospel?

Yeah.

It may seem cliche to say it, but it really is for. For everyone. If you're a Christian and you've been in the church world a long time, maybe you have never heard of it or you haven't known a lot about the prosperity gospel, this book is for you. It'll open up your eyes to the issues that are there that maybe you weren't aware of. Also, if you grew up in church in the prosperity gospel or in a system like it, and you're wondering if it's genuine and you've had questions like I had, this book is for you. And then honestly, if you are unchurched or one of those fringe church goers or church onlookers and you're religious or you believe in God, but you're a little bit apprehensive because church can be shady and leaders can be dangerous and you're not sure what to do with all that, this book is for you too, because it might heal some of those wounds and might answer some of those questions. Questions. And I've had even secular people who are completely unchurched read the book already and say this is helpful just for understanding what is true Christianity, what is a pastor, and what does a real church represent and teach versus what probably gets most of the press and bad press at that.

So for those who don't know this term prosperity gospel, they may be familiar with the teachings, but they don't know the label. How do you succinctly describe the prosperity gospel? Gospel, Kosti?

I would say the prosperity gospel is the belief that Jesus Christ died for your sins and, or, but mostly so that you wouldn't just have to wait for heaven to get all the things you want, you could be healthy, wealthy and happy. Now, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is good news because it guarantees all the good things in life you've ever wanted.

And your succinct counter to that in the book would be. Be what?

The true gospel is not about getting stuff, it's about getting saved. We want to go to Christ for who he is, not what he can give us. And ultimately that's eternity, that's heaven, that's him as the ultimate treasure, not just gaining earthly things.

Yeah, I love that. And so I, I have young kids, I have a five year old and a three year old and we're starting to talk, Ellison, my five year old, through the gospel. And we're even being careful not to make heaven the end all be right. It is being with Christ that is the prize, right? That is the true reward of salvation. It's not golden streets either here on earth or in heaven. So I love that. Hey, Kosti. So the people listening to this episode, my audience, these are high achieving Christians who are ambitious for their work, who have this deep integration of their faith in their work and are seeking to do really masterful work not for their own fame and fortune, but for the glory of God and the good of others. Others. How is this going to serve that particular person? How's this book going to serve that person?

Well, this book will challenge your character. That's the reality here. For any of us in whatever we're doing and whatever we find our hands to do, God's word tells us to do with all our might and we're to do that for his glory. Your character is where everything rises or unfortunately falls. Leaders in the workplace, in the workforce, corporate America, in the church. Church. This book will challenge your character. I think every one of us will have to ask ourselves by the end of a book like this, do I believe the prosperity gospel? And I'm not talking about the crazy stuff you see on tv. When you peel back the layers of your heart as a faithful working achiever for the glory of God. Do you believe that God is good when things are going good and when you don't achieve, when you miss the mark, are you one of those people that begins to say, well, maybe God isn't excited about me, or maybe God doesn't love me, or maybe he's not happy with me? Those are signs that even in our own hearts, the prosperity gospel system has leaked in. The reality is God is always good, even when things are not and even when you don't achieve all that you desire. God is still, for you, he loves you. Your identity is not in what you achieve. It's in what Christ has achieved. And so this is about our character, no matter what level of success we reach. And I think this book will help people a lot with that.

Amen. You guys listening, listening to Kassi talk sounds like a lot of what we talk about here on the podcast. So you can understand why I'm so excited about this book and why I've enjoyed it so much. You know, you said something. I just want to wrap up with this thought. You know, when we think of the prosperity gospel, we think of watching televangelists in this. Like, we think of the prosperity gospel as this very new, narrow thing. Right. But the prosperity gospel's impact is far wider than that. I do believe. I. I think you said it really well. It's this kind of core belief that if things are going well, God is good. If things are not going well, God is not good. And I think that's a pretty, pretty common belief system for a lot of people. And so I'm so thankful that you wrote this book to help all of us spot where in our hearts the prosperity gospel has seeped in. Cosmic Cassidy, thank you again for writing this book. Thank you for protecting and fighting for the true gospel of Jesus Christ, the pure gospel of Jesus Christ. And thank you so much for hanging out with me for a few minutes on this podcast.

Thanks for all you do, Jordan. Keep it up.

Thanks again to Costi Hinn for answering those questions. The book, God, Greed, and the Prosperity Gospel. Highly recommended. You can get the book wherever books are sold, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, wherever the heck you guys buy your books. That's it for today's episode. Again, if you enjoyed the episode, be sure to subscribe to the Call to Mastery. And if you're already subscribed, leave a review. It's the best way that you can help us get this message out in the hands or, I guess, ears of more people. Again, hope you guys really enjoyed this episode of the Call to Mastery. I'll see you next week.

Sam.