Kristin Joy Taylor (Illustrator of A Star for You)

The episode you're about to listen to was released back when the Mere Christians podcast was called the Call to Mastery. Now, if you love Mere Christians, you're still going to love these older episodes because the majority of each conversation focuses on how the gospel influences the work of our guests. With that disclaimer out of the way, please enjoy the episode. Foreign. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I'm Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. Every week I host a conversation with a Christian who's pursuing world class mastery of their craft. We talk about their path to mastery, their daily habits, and how the gospel of Jesus Christ influences their work. Today's guest is my dear friend, Kristin Joy Taylor. She is one of the most spiritually attuned and exceptional artists that I know. And by the way, if her name sounds familiar, it's likely because I told her story in the very first pages of Called to Create. So Kristen, Joy and I finally sat down on the podcast to talk about why play is so crucial to master our crafts and experiencing the joy of the gospel. We talked about what God's promise to Abraham has to do with our work today. And we talked about why Kristen Joy and her friend drove 16 hours to thank a pastor in person for how his sermon changed their life and how I think that message can change your life in this episode. Please enjoy this conversation with my friend, Kristin Joy Taylor. Kristen, Joy, my friend, welcome.

Hello, Jordan. Great to be here.

So if my listeners recognize your name, it's probably because yours was the very first story I told in my very first book called the Great. Do you remember when I was like prepping for this conversation? I was like, I don't even know if I fully remember where that was. Do you remember where we were sitting down for that?

Oh, gosh, maybe at Whole Foods.

Yeah, right around the corner of your house. And I think it's the first interview I ever did for that book. So, yeah, I told this story about how you once drove 16 hours to thank a pastor for how his words changed your life. So for our listeners who haven't read Called to Create yet, can you share that story with us?

Oh, my word. Yeah. Just the normal response to a good sermon, right?

Very normal. You say amen and then you drive six, 16 hours after you listen to the podcast.

I thought that's how it worked. Yeah. So the story goes, there was a guest pastor here in Tampa that was coming through. He gave a sermon the church I was at at the time was Tampa Covenant, and his sermon was on why creativity matters. And all I can say is it was. There's sermons filled with truth. That's amazing. But then there are times where the truth is, like, anointed truth for a time that's anointed for, like, what you need right then. So it just felt touched by the spirit. So it did something inside of me. Anyway, he spoke on why creativity is so vital to being alive, to being a child of God. And without getting into the whole sermon, I think the main thing that happened inside of me was, like, I always knew I was creative, but I didn't value it as how, like, what it's worth and what it means. And when he was preaching, I just felt this validation of being creative and being an artist is about a way of being in the world. It's not about what you produce necessarily. Like, that's a byproduct, but the validation of it's the way you see. It's the way that you walk around your life, what you notice, how you respond, how you engage, and to show up in your life in that way and not hide. Not hide how you've been made. And so, anyway, it just. I cried the whole time. Like, one of those Were, like, embarrassed because I'm like, what is happening? I just felt like someone had shoved a key in this locked place inside of me and opened the lock. And so anyway, after that, you know, I had a small community of people that were creatives, and we were all so moved and stirred by it. And so the natural response was, gather up.

Get behind the Civic.

Let's go. My friend Hayley and I decided to take a road trip and to make this guy Jerry King, one of the main stops. And so we jumped in a car with, like, letters from our community of, like, how the sermon had ministered to them and what, you know, his words meant with the, you know, determination to just jump in the car and go, bless someone's socks off.

So timeout. Couple things. Number one, would have been a lot more convenient if you just told him after the service before he left town. Right. For starters. Number two, I don't know if I've ever heard, like, did you find him? Like, did you find Jerry King at his home church? He was in Ohio, right?

Super. Not a main city on the map. Ohio, yeah. So my pastor was friends with him, so he kind of vied for us. And we did this, like, covert operation.

Like, these people aren't stalkers.

Yes. These two girls are not crazy. It seems like they are, but they really aren't. So he kind of, you know, vouched for us and said, they're going to be stopping through. And we even were like, we're stopping through on our way to New York. Can we stop for a night in Ohio? And the best part of the story to me is we get there, Jerry King's like, hey, awesome, so glad you have a place to stay for the night. All right, I'm going. I have a prayer meeting. And he leaves. And we're like, we just drove 16 hours.

That's amazing.

And then he's not even going to be home. And we like, yeah, erupted in delirious laughter.

That's. Wait, so what happened? You delivered the letters, right?

The next day. So we went to leave. We just went to his office and we're like, hey, just so you know, the real reason we came, this is why we're here. And we like handed him this box of goodness and he was speechless, like, oh, oh, oh my God, that's amazing. It almost made it better, you know.

Oh, totally.

You don't even know the impact you're having.

And anyway, so that'll preach though. I mean, I think that's a story for a lot of us, right? With no clue what I think.

So funny is I'm like a crazy 20 something. And I'm really responding to God, you know, when I look back at that, I'm like, he touched me. And I'm really responding to him going after thanking this guy who was really used by him. It's just crazy that it's in a book, you know, and that's where I'm like, you never know.

You never know. Well, this is the thing. When I interviewed you for Called to Create, that must have been back in 2016ish, maybe 2015. The sermon was already pretty old at that point. And I remember you gave me like a CD recording, which I'm sure is like gone by now. I'm pretty sure the only artifact of this sermon remains in called the Great. But I loved it so much. I want to read an excerpt from the sermon that made its way into the book. Jerry King said this. He said, quote, God presents himself in the Bible first of all as the creator God. He could have begun this story in lots of different ways, but the place he chose to say human beings, this is who I am. I want you to know this about me first, is here, I am the creator God, end quote. I think it was you who went on to say in the Interview. Just this idea that the church tends to treat creativity. Is this, like, nice to have, but not essential part of the body of Christ? It's almost like it's this fringe thing, I think is how you put it. Why do you think that is?

Oh, my gosh. It probably has something to do with each of our own value systems. Personally, it manifests collectively. I was in the same camp. I thought creativity was like someone saying, hey, you're really funny. You're like, oh, thanks. It's like a compliment, but it doesn't actually mean anything. It's not like you're saying, hey, I think you're called to be a comedian, you know, or whatever. It just felt like something that's additive to maybe the tasks that you do in life, but not essential. So I don't know. I don't know why it's not a major component. But obviously that message, I mean, spiritually did something in that moment for me and I think for others too. Just this. Engage your life and the world around you in this imago DEI way, because you're made in his image, in his creative image. Yes.

Remind me, what were you doing before the sermon for work? And how did the sermon change how you viewed your work kind of moving forward?

So before that, I grew up. I didn't paint or draw or anything like that. And it wasn't until college. I was in college for photography, and my roommate at the time pulled out one night in our studio apartment. She pulled out her oil paints, canvases, and she was like, hey, let's paint tonight. And I was like, well, I can't paint. I don't. I've never painted before. And she was like, oh, that doesn't matter. Like, let's just be creative. And I was like, you know, typical party. Yeah. So it ended up we, like, had this amazing time, just music on coffee, drop cloths. And we painted. And I painted something that I actually looked at, and I was like, oh, my gosh, can I paint? I didn't know I could paint. And then it became like, it was so enjoyable that the process of sitting down almost meditatively, like, you know, you've got music on, you're in community, and you're just with each other and letting whatever's inside kind of come out on the canvas. It doesn't matter what it is, you know? And I think for me, it was like this. Maybe this answers your other question about the church, but I think I had a performance, kind of school mindset about art and probably even my faith. Like, it Felt like you've got to do it the right way. You've got to know how you can't mess up or make mistakes. That was my own hang ups. Kind of like a perfectionistic mindset. And so to have someone sit down and basically be like, oh, yeah, like, this isn't for anything at all. This is for the act of creating. Let's just have fun. And then the performance, the perfection, like, all of that was inconsequential because it wasn't even a part of the conversation. And from there, that's like, became something we did. Like, we would invite people over, we would have paint parties, and we would invite people that weren't artists and just be like, hey, you want to come play with paint? And, like, drink a pot of coffee and see what happens. We would move all the furniture. And so at that time, we were in this place of just creating for the fun of it, having fun, playing. It was tons of play. It was on the back of that that the Jerry King sermon came. And so it came in and validated, hey, what you're doing is actually even more important than what you think. You're practicing something that's really vital to your humanity. Like, keep going, don't stop. So it was a really awesome tee up for that word that he delivered.

Yeah. Because to create is to create in the image of God, in the image of how God designed us to create and fill the earth and subdue it. And not just with function, but with beauty. I had Makoto Fujimura, the artist on the podcast recently.

Yes.

Who's amazing. And we just had this great conversation about our utilitarian obsessed culture. Like, everything has to have a practical use. There's no time for fun. There's only time for function. Right. And you just don't see that in Genesis. Right. Like, yes, God created order, but he also created with gratuitous beauty. Right. Like needless beauty.

Yeah. This has been so fun. Just as a gratitude statement to you, to actually, like, go back and look at my own process and story for the sake of this conversation, you know, And I'm like, oh, my gosh. I'm like seeing all these connections. And one of the main things I was like, processing with my husband, and I'm like, you know, I think that really the play was so instrumental for me, for everything that would come after, but it had to start in a play, risk, low risk, no fear of failure place. And it was crazy because when I'm talking to him, he was like, this reminds me of a documentary in Search of greatness. Have you ever watched that? It's about athletes that excel, like the world, world's best athletes, like Jerry Rice and Michael Jordan, all these guys. And the commonality between these masters was the amount of time that they spent in unstructured play, both in childhood and into adulthood. Because all of that fear, failure, performance goes away. And then you have this free space to experiment, to risk, to fail, to try again, to discover. You know, it's like, oh, my gosh. Just makes so much sense. And I love that in God's wisdom, in kind of how he was forming me. He knew, okay, we've got to get this off of her first. This fear of, like, it having to be a quote right way or kind of what I produce either validates that I am or am not an artist or a creative. And start from a place that's like, no, this is who you are. And now you have the freedom to discover it and to become it. You already are that. So now it's an open field. It's open play. Go have fun. And that set me up, like, oh, my gosh. So it became like a brand new language for me to explore and be present to my life and to God. Like, creativity became a pathway of connection with him more than. It became like a trade I was trying to get good at, if that makes sense.

Yeah, totally.

It became a language. It's just really beautiful to look back at that process and be like, wow, I didn't even know that's what you were doing, God.

You know, Dolly Parton wrote this, like, extraordinary book called Songteller, which is basically her life and autobiography through her songs. And she has this quote, like, really early on, she says, I feel like I'm closest to God when I write the songs. Right. And it's. I do think there's something to that. Like, when you're doing the work, you know, God made you to do.

Yeah, yeah.

There's a way of communing with him as you do the work. That's worship, right?

Yeah.

I'm curious. So since hearing that sermon, fast forward a little bit, you and your husband Tim, have welcomed a little one into your family via adoption, which I'm the biggest fan of in the world, as you know. I'm curious what you guys are doing to help your daughter see that. Because God is creative. She is, too.

Oh. I think it's just in constant validation of the things that she's drawn to and that she expresses and engages in. So she actually says she wants to be an illustrator. So really? Oh, yeah. She draws pictures and wants to write the story. And the other day I was talking to her because she's got an incredible language. I think God has given her the gift of whatever that part of the brain is that can access language and words and. And be able to connect the meaning, put them in context. She has, at age six, to me, beyond what I've experienced with, you know, other kids. And so I'm like, maya, I just think God has given you so many words, like, do you think you'll write a book one day? And she's like, I'm going to write a lot of books, Mom.

I love it.

Illustrative, you know? Yeah. I just think in that same way that kind of. I came to that place of, like, it's already who you are. You get to discover it, cultivating that with her like you already are. God has given you things that are inside of you, and now you just get to walk a path that he's already prepared. And that's exciting. You don't have to make the path happen. He already knows. So let's just follow it. Let's follow him, you know?

As you know, this may be one of the first times my listeners are hearing this, but on April 5th, I'm releasing my first children's book, the Creator.

In youn Can't Wait.

This is why I wrote this book, honestly, to help Maya tell my girls, Ellison, Kate and Emery and all of our listeners, kids connect God's creative work to their own. You know, current work, future work, whatever. And it's funny, as I was prepping for this conversation, I was like, wait a second. Yet again. So you were at the. You were there at the beginning of Called to Create. You were also there at the very beginning of the Creator in you at Whole Foods. I don't have many meetings of Whole Foods, but for whatever reason, every Jordan Rayner project starts with a meeting with Chris and Joy at Whole Foods on North Dale Mabry in Tampa. Yeah. And you were also the first person to ever take a stab at illustrating a spread of this book. Still one of my treasures.

Yes.

Yeah. So my publisher, for whatever reason, decided to hire another illustrator in their network who did a phenomenal job.

Yeah.

But I still look at that first spread you sent all the time. I love it so, so much. But you've gotten a sneak peek at the final artwork of this book. What do you think? We haven't talked.

Oh, my word. It's. It's exactly as it should be. So as much as you know, I Want to wrestle your publisher?

Exactly.

Because I loved your story. I think. Oh my gosh. Who they went with. And the work is. It's very alive, it's very vibrant. Not just in like, in color, but in the movement, the concepts. And I think you're just, you're drawn up, you're drawn up into a bigger reality, a bigger story. It's gorgeous. And I know the goal.

You and I talked about that, that at the first meeting I was like, I want a children's book that works for 5 year olds and 55 year olds. I want it to be a Pixar movie. Right. And to do that, it's gotta be epic. It's gotta be really big. Because the creation story is.

That's a good word. It's epic.

It's epic. Yeah, that's it. That's the word. So you went on to publish your own extraordinary children's book, which I love and read to my girls all the time. It just came out a few months ago. Tell us about this book. A Star for you.

Yes. Okay, so A Star for you is written by my cousin in law, Brianna Elizabeth Taylor.

What is a cousin in law? Break this down. I don't, you know, we don't have time. I don't care, but keep going.

My husband's cousin's wife.

There you go. Okay, got it.

So she wrote this beautiful story exploring connections between the night sky, between the stars and between God's family. So kind of entering this question of like, what if the story of the stars is really a story about family? Beginning with this conversation between Abraham and God out on the hill that night where God looked up and said, I'm going to make your descendants as many as these stars that you see. It's a beautiful story. Same feeling of like, it's an epic story. It's an epic story, which is why I love it.

It's a really big story.

Yeah. But it's also accessible and playful, but it's not watered down to the point that I'm in the same boat as you. I feel like you could, as a 5 year old or a 10 year old, look through this book and feel something from it, you know, feel drawn to God, to spiritual reality that is real in the world. And so I'm really proud of it. I can't believe it's finished. And yeah, I think it's a really beautiful story that I hope ministers to all ages.

I love it. The message of this book is deeply personal. Right. That God knew the name of every one of those stars. Promised to Abraham, including yours. Kristin Joy Taylor.

Yes.

As you've been making this book, how has that truth impacted your life? How has it impacted the way you view your work? Just this truth that there's always been a star predestined by God for you.

Oh, my word. Well, I mean, first of all, it just produces worship. And that was part of. In the process of working on it, you know, I came to my own creative roadblocks and fears and fear of failure and all of that. Whenever I dropped into actually, like, what is this really saying and what am I conveying? It just downshifted into worship and then we're off to the races. Because it is unbelievable. I mean, it is extravagant that we're not just added to the family at some point when we exist, but like, this was planned from the beginning, long, long ago, before we existed. Kind of the most beautiful revelation to me in the process of working on it was considering my daughter's adoption story, because we started the process of adoption. It took three and a half years, so she wasn't even alive for a year and a half of our movement toward her. So we had named her, made space for her, praying for her. Like, this choice to bring her into our family started before she was ever conceived. And I think for me, when I experience illustrating this book and I consider God and my own adoption, I'm like, blown away that there was the love of the Creator moving toward me to bring me into his family before I was ever on the map, you know, like, before I ever existed, he had already named me. He had already made room for me and interceded for me and prayed for me, all to bring me into the intimacy of his, his heart and his home. And obviously, having experienced that through adoption, it's another avenue that he gave for us to understand the truth of who he is as a father and specifically the spirit of adoption. So that was an amazing gift. In the process of this, just really chewing on that eternal before the foundations of the world plan that he had.

It's beautiful. And knowing that he adopted us into his family before we did a single thing, good or bad, right, connected to our work. I think a lot of times we don't say this explicitly, but implicitly we're living a sermon that says that I've got to please God by doing all these good works for Him. The Gospel should motivate us to be ambitious when it works. But Ephesians 2, 8, 9 assures us that we are saved by faith alone. We have been adopted outside of our Works regardless of what we've done. I was thinking, I heard somebody preaching on this the other day I never really thought about before. But you know, Jesus, baptism, the Father's blessing comes before Jesus begins his three year public ministry. This is my son in whom I well pleased. And then he go out, it goes out and kicks off this public ministry. Right. The blessing comes first. Only in Christianity do we get the verdict before the performance. Blessed be the name of the Lord.

Totally. And I think that goes back to like, how can you become who he's made you to be? It has to be from a place of freedom first. You can't play unless you're free. And it's amazing to me that the gospel is the place that says a hundred percent before you do a thing. You are free because of what I've done. You are accepted. This is who you are. I'm gonna name what you are and who you are to me before you ever actually do anything that manifests that. Yeah, that's freedom. As opposed to like, you know what, after you work for a while, we'll take a survey of your stuff and then determine your worth and who you are. It's just so not that way. And that is, it's just so freeing.

All right, I want to do a deep dive into this. You've mentioned this a couple of times and I've been thinking about it a lot over the last three weeks. Play. Right. I think there's a spiritual dimension this, but I also think there's like a really practical dimension of. You mentioned this before. Play is essential to mastering our crafts. So let's start here. How does the gospel enable you? Give you the freedom to. And permission to play. Like, try to articulate that for us if you can.

I think knowing that Jesus has done it all, like it's finished, he's done all the heavy lifting then to actually enter into the good news of the gospel. I think that's part of it, right? There is to say, hey kids, you're free. And it is actually for freedom that I set you free. So, you know, it makes me wonder, like, what was it like pre fall, pre disconnection from the presence of God? The affirmation of the presence of God. Like, how playful were Adam and Eve? You know, because there's something too, I think, starting that way as kids that we naturally gravitate when we're living in the delight of our parents, when all of our needs are taken care of, we're not stressed. You know, we're like given two people to Meet all of our needs, and then you're free to play. You're not thinking about other stuff, bogged down with all the things you need to get done, agenda control, all of this. So it's so natural for kids to just show up at each other's house and say, let's play, let's play. And there's no thing they're working toward. It's just a delight response to life.

So I love this. I love this picture. In response to Gospel, however, Paul says, again, we just talked about Ephesians 2, 8, 9. We've been saved by faith, not by works. But verse 10 is, we have been saved for good works. Like, part of our salvation is not to just sit around and play and wait for the kingdom to drop from the sky. Right. Part of our purpose is to help cultivate the kingdom on earth as it is in heaven. So how do you personally hold these things in tension that, yes, the Gospel should lead Christians to this unique, defiant joy, but also we've been saved for good works which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Yeah, this is a great question, and this is where I've been sitting in considering my story.

And for the record, I do not have the answer to this one. This is a selfish question.

So for me, as I've considered the story that he's telling in my own life, I have found this call from him to play from a responsive, worshipful position of my heart. And I think in order to play, you have to trust that he actually knows the process, where you're headed, what the plan is. And so I don't know, I look back and I'm like, if at any point I tried to, like, jump ship and run ahead with my own plans, given what I was making or ideas that I had or whatever, my story would be different. I'm not saying this is everybody's story, but for me, I look at the unstructured play, the freedom, the delight. It was really cultivating intimacy with God. So my main kind of creative practice, which I would call a spiritual practice at this point was art journaling. It cultivated becoming aware to the presence of God in my daily life, if that answers your question. I just think for me, the play really meant intimacy and freedom and getting to know the heart and the presence of God, which for me turned out to be. He really did present himself like an artist. So I would be, like, smitten by the beauty around me. It was avenue for him to really minister to me about, like, hey, I make really beautiful things. I tell really Beautiful stories I'm constantly creating. There's a process to all of this. And for me to take my hands off the wheel and have the simplicity of a child. I do think there is something to the scripture that says to enter the kingdom, you do have to become like a child again to fall back on. I have a father who has a plan, and my job is to be tuned in to his voice. That's my mastery work right there.

Yeah, totally.

Is to be tuned into the voice of God and whatever flows from there is a beautiful souvenir.

Yeah. You know, this is fascinating to me. I'm always thinking, like, three books ahead. There's the book I'm marketing now. There's the book I'm writing now. And then there's like the books after that. Who knows what that book's gonna be. But one of the seeds, maybe it's.

Gonna be about play, you know?

Yeah, seriously, this is one of the seeds that's starting to germinate in my mind. Here's why. Right. Like I talk, I mean, all of my work, the podcast, the books, whatever, are helping Christians connect eternal purpose to the work that they're doing in the world. It's this. I feel like I and our audience run the risk of being too purpose driven. I do think there's such a thing so purpose obsessed that we forget to delight in the joy of the gospel. Right. I was just, like, really convicted of this. I don't know, a couple months ago, I was sitting on the couch with my wife Kara, and I just admitted I was like, I was like, don't be offended by this. But there is almost nothing I do for the pure joy of doing it, even with my kids. I love being with my kids. I love playing with my wife and we play. But it's all intentional, right? Like, I'm parenting my kids. I want to be a good dad, so I play with my kids. And I just don't know that that's what God's will is. For our lives to be so purpose driven that we're not experiencing sonship and daughtership and simply enjoying being a child of the king. Do you know what I'm saying here?

Yeah, I know what you're saying. And I think that's where maybe part of the unique story that he cultivated in me, like, I feel like the messenger of play because I do think, and I've experienced it myself, leaving the play myself to, oh, I gotta do the thing and I have gotta be a grown up and I've gotta have a plan here. And I do think there's balance, you know, like, of course it's not one or the other. Like you said, it's not. I'm just gonna hole up in my house and play and do nothing else. But I do think I almost would say, I don't know if in the west we can run the risk of like, oh no, we, you know, we can't get too out of hand with play because our culture is so wired for what you said. Fujimura said, the utilitarian, purpose driven, whatever. And though I do, I just. When I was thinking of this, I thought maybe part of it is just coming back to the place of going. What am I called to? One of the main things I'm called to is to enjoy God, to enjoy the presence of God, to enjoy the life he's given me and be fully present. And I would say some of the purpose driven stuff, we can't be present because we're working for something out ahead. Still good things could still be things God's calling us to. But I do think, I would say probably for most of us, it's not like we're gonna go overboard. Yeah. With the messages.

Yeah. Totally.

Delight play. Be present in such a way that you can actually see things like the beauty that is in your backyard or the way that your daughter plays this. Or, you know, I just come back to that. Like, this has so ministered to me to think about. Like, he's like, the main thing I want for you is to be present to me and my presence with you. That's it. That's the main thing. And then everything will flow from this intimacy that is cultivated.

I've been convicted of the need for play for the good of my soul. Right. I do think this is part of. Yes. Sky Jathani says, doing our work with God and not just for God. I think play is an ingredient to that recipe. But I also think play is critical to mastering any craft vocation. I mean, you've already alluded to this, right? Play was what awakened you to think, huh? Maybe God designed me to an artist to be an artist. And now I think you're pursuing world class mastery of that craft. You're really good at what you do. I am curious though. Like, you know, oftentimes the thing that we find ourselves doing for pay started with play, but then the play gets sucked out of it because it's the main thing. It's the job. Right?

Yeah.

How do you ensure that the work still feels playful even when you're earning income from it?

That's a great question. It requires playing outside of the projects in which you're paid for as much as there was still play and delight and worship in the creating of a star for you illustrations. I could feel myself holding back playing because I have to do the real thing, you know, So I, like, almost have guilt for, like, well, you can't spend your time playing when you have a paid job that's being. You're being waited on to, like, finish this, you know? So I felt that tension too. And I just think what I've come back to is, oh, my gosh, you need to constantly be playing in some way, which is gonna inform basically more creativity and playfulness in the work that you're given. That's for, like, an actual project. It was cool. Tim got me, my husband, he got me the book Golden Sea by Fujimura. And he's actually. He had a section in there, and I hope I don't butcher it, but about how he was commissioned to do paintings for the four Gospels for one of the Bible translations. And he said he had those set up in his studio, but then he had a canvas off in the corner that was his play canvas. So he would do, like, where he's got to be focused. He's trying to fit something into a commission of someone's vision and what they're asking of him. But he had to step away at times and go to the play canvas and freely explore and risk and all of that there. And he said that that painting, the play one, became one of the most intriguing paintings that everyone wanted to see.

Yeah.

And I just thought, there it is, like, the need to not just do work for a quote purpose, even though that is definitely 100% still a part of all of this. But the need to play and have that low risk, utilitarian vibe not present so that you can be free. And there's still so much more. I feel the message, too, the play message. Even though I feel like I've lived a lot of it, I just still feel him speaking about this.

This is helping me make some creative connections in my own mind and for my own work. So according to my readers, this is not my opinion, but just go look at the Amazon reviews. This nonfiction book I just released, Redeeming youg Times, my best book so far. And I was writing it in. Let me make sure I have my. Yeah, I was writing this in 2020. And I think part of the reason why that book is so good and is it was one of the few times I was really playing in A meaningful way. So I've never talked about this on the podcast, but at this time on the week on Saturdays, a buddy of mine and I were writing a TV show, and actually we're in talks with Netflix and a few other people about making this thing, which is super cool. But it started out as pure play. It was pure fun. It was pure joy. And I think that made the writing on the main thing better. I was just working out different muscles that I wasn't used to working out. I just think this is critical for creators, but for anyone working in any type of job to find ways to play, to get better at the craft, and to experience the joy of adoption into God's family. Right?

Absolutely.

All right, Kristen. Joy, this is terrific. Three questions. We wrap up every conversation with, number one, which books do you find yourself recommending or gifts gifting most frequently to others?

Oh, hands down, easiest question of my life is Every Moment holy by Douglas McKelvey? Because to me, it is that way of being in the world. It's a liturgy book for everyday moments. And so there's liturgies for things like washing windows, having a yard sale. Like the craziest. Changing a diaper. There's a liturgy for changing a diaper. And it is also in conjunction with your other question, who would you have on the podcast is. I would be interested in knowing this guy's story because his ability to write and be present to the most mundane moments and offer them up as worship and connection with God is breathtaking to me. And that book literally goes with me everywhere I go. Like it goes on vacation, it goes in the car. It goes everywhere. And it makes life richer because you're taking the literal elements of everyday life and letting it be a moment where you see God's presence right here, right now, and are able to respond, which to me is the definition of worship. Responding to his presence and his grace in our everyday lives. So that's one of my favorite.

McKelvey's. Not that old. I don't think he's.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What kind of street miles do you have in your spiritual life.

Exactly.

That you can glean this much meaning. Yeah.

Seriously.

Out of all these moments. So, yeah. That's a huge blessing.

Well, look at you answering two questions with one stone. I'm very impressed.

I'm getting creative. I'm playing right now.

Yeah, yeah.

The other book, I don't know if I'm allowed to say, too.

Yeah, you can say as many as you want.

Is ish. It's a children's Book by Peter Reynolds.

I don't know this.

What?

No.

Oh my gosh. Okay, so it is a book that I think every person, every adult should read, especially if you're in any vein, a creative. He's got a creative trilogy called. It might be just called Creative Trilogy. It's ish dot and sky color, but it's basically a story about someone being like creative but not really believing in their creativity and then coming to understand what it really means to be an artist. It's beautiful.

Oh my gosh. I gotta check this out. Okay, great, Done. All right, last question. What's one thing from our conversation today that you wanna reiterate before we sign off?

Mm, I think I was thinking of this ahead of time and I just, I want to reiterate, we've said it enough, but the importance of unstructured play in giving yourself permission, that it's not a fringe or frill like luxury, but it's a necessity to your heart staying alive, you know?

Yeah, yeah, no, that's real. And that's what brought me to this. All right, so real quick, I'm in Austin, Texas last week with two weeks ago, something like that with 35 really high performing Christian dudes. And I don't even remember how exactly it came up, but this idea of a lack of play and hearts dying to be dramatic came up and to my shock it became the theme of the week. Everybody raised their hand was like, oh yeah, this is a thing. This is a thing that we're battling with. Which is part of why it set me down this path of starting to read about this. I'm reading this book by, I think his name is Dr. Stuart Brown called Play right now. It's really good about this topic, but yeah, I'm all in. They're just thinking about this, praying about this. It's a big deal.

It's a big deal. Yeah, I really want to impact more so that. And then I would say trusting the process. If there's any gift that I, I feel I've experienced and continue to want to live into, it's that idea of what I said of like trusting that God actually he's the only one who does know the process and where you're headed. But what it means to me looking back is like, oh man, when I was doing drop cloth living room floor paint parties that were just for fun, that was actually formational to places that were along the journey and where I was headed, but I didn't know it then. So I think when I consider places where in my mind, like I don't know where I'm headed, I don't know what's happening or this doesn't quote matter and looking back and going, oh man, there's not anything that doesn't matter or isn't an actual place on the map of process. Because every step of the process of your creative journey or your good works that God prepared for you to do, everything is setting up everything else. And so there's nothing that isn't important along that path.

That's a good word. Kristen Joy, my friend, I can't believe it took you this long to come on the podcast. For the record. Okay. But I just want to commend you for the exceptional, beautiful work you create. Thank you for reminding us of the God given call of creativity and that we as his image bearers are called to create in his image. So thank you for that. Thank you for sharing. A little bit of a star for you. By the way guys, if you want to get a copy, you can get it right now at a star4youbook.com my friend. Thanks again for joining us.

Thank you, Jordan.

Kristen Joy is such a gift to the world. I'm so grateful for her and her husband Tim in the incredible way work that they do. Hey listen, I mentioned it real briefly in the podcast, but my first children's book, the Creator in you, which really is exploring a lot of the things we were talking about early on about us being made in the image of a creator God. It's available right now on Amazon for pre order. It drops April 5th. Go check it out. Thank you guys so much for tuning in this week. I'll see you next time. Sam.