Laura Wifler (Poet + Author of Your Worth Never Wavers)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back guarantee on this book. I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me, right. I know this is a very different biography. What is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right? So that's the first reason this is a risk and I'm gonna de risk this book for you. Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended. End quote. But here's the thing. In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on 5 mereChristians. Calm and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5meerchristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as interior Designers, park rangers and chefs. That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to Laura Whiffler. She is the co founder of the phenomenally successful ministry Risen Motherhood and the best selling author of a ton of great books for grownups and for kids. Laura and I recently sat down and talked about her decision to sunset risen motherhood after 10 years and the biblical freedom and courage she found to do so. We talked about how both of us have cultivated a willingness to be misunderstood by others. And we also talked about how the gospel should compel us to quit things differently. Friend, do not miss this episode with my new friend, Laura Whiffler. Hey, Lor Wiffler. Welcome finally to the Mere Christians Podcast.

Ah, thanks for having me. I'm excited.

Yeah. Say hey. You're probably best known these days for this role you've had leading this ministry called Risen Motherhood, which you're about to kill, which I. That sounds so brutal. Which you're about to sunset. And I'd love to talk to your decision there because so few people in my experience think deeply about how to end things well, and you clearly have. But first, for our listeners who don't know, what is this ministry? What is Risen Motherhood?

Risen Motherhood is a nonprofit ministry that my sister in law and I co founded about 10 years ago. And really the whole heartbeat behind it is to just help moms connect their faith to their motherhood. We're sort of known for saying, hey, how does the gospel change your motherhood? How does it matter to your everyday life? We produce podcasts and articles and resources. Everything's free because we have incredible donors and it's just been a wild ride. It was a very unexpected ride, something that we didn't necessarily set out to create and that may help even the listeners understand, hey, why are we bringing it to an end? So I was, you know, my late 20s, my sister in law and I are having tons of babies and we are all the babies. All the babies. Honestly, she has five. Okay, I only have three, but she did have a lot of babies. And we are talking about, hey, does God really care about what diapers I use? Does he care about what I feed my kids for snack time? Like we were in the granular throes of motherhood. And like any Christian mom, or really any mother, like you want to do it right, you know, you want to give your babies the best. And so as Christian moms, we were asking, what does God have to say about our motherhood? And at the time, we Were just kind of blogging and doing our own thing to a very quiet and small audience of about probably just our own moms. You know, we're really reading that. And we decided to air these conversations we were having via podcasts, which were kind of a new medium at the time. They weren't nearly as popular as they are now. And it just, we said, let's just do five episodes, then we'll quit. It's just a fun collaboration. But God just knocked our socks off and he really blessed it and it grew very quickly, month over month, very fast growth. Within about 15 to 18 months, we had a book deal. I mean, things were just really going fast and it was incredible. It was a ride that I wouldn't trade for anything and I'm so thankful for it. But it was about two years ago that we kind of both turned to one another and just said, hey, are you ready to be done with risen motherhood? And of course we've done that periodically over the years. You know, things get crazy, it's overwhelming. You get burnout. Like all the things that people experience when a job is really growing or a career is growing and, and one or the other of us wasn't ever really ready. And so we'd kind of pull the other along and be like, no, no. Or you know, you can take a sabbatical for a couple months or you know, we'd figure out a way through. But it was about two years ago that we both were like, yeah, we're about done. And so that was incredible. Just that God's timing would align our hearts together. But we knew that we didn't just want to, you know, cut it off at the head. We really wanted to bring our community along with us. We knew there'd be a lot of questions of, hey, why would you end? At least on the outside seems very successful and honestly, internally was very successful. We had an incredible team. My sister in law and I are best friends. We love one another. Like we love working. There was no issue there that would cause the end of the ministry. But we'd also seen a lot of ministries crash and burn and we'd seen ministry leaders fall. And we didn't want there to be any sign that like, that's the reason we're closing. So we really had to think through how do we do this?

Well, yeah, and to where people actually believe us that there are like, you know, relational. I think it's interesting, like, I think conventional wisdom that you read in, you know, leadership books, business books, whatever acts like the the thing that requires the most courage is persevering in the thing. And I actually think the tables are turning here. I almost think quitting requires more courage than persevering in a lot of cases, because people won't get it right. They won't understand walking away from something that is working. And for, in your case, my case, something that is clearly quote, unquote, the work of the Lord, which is, I say in this podcast, everything you're doing out there, guys, is the work of the Lord. But you get what I mean. Did you guys wrestle with that? Like, did you feel like you had to really find the courage and conviction to let this good thing go?

Yeah, it's a. It's a really great question. And I think that specifically to this situation, it didn't feel like it took a ton of courage for us, I will be honest.

Because you had such clarity around it, I think.

Because we had such clarity. Now I know exactly what you're saying, because I think, one, there's been a lot of areas in my life where I do believe quitting is the most courageous thing that we can do. And I do think in some ways, like, we had to be comfortable with being misunderstood. We've definitely had a lot of women who have said, why, you know, we understand that you guys need to stop, but why not bring in new voices? You know, because we are literally. I mean, I don't know if you know, Jordan, but we're like, deleting the Internet footprint. We are. Oh, God. This is more than just like, oh, we're gonna go do something else, and, like, we'll keep our eye over on.

Oh, this is killing. Killing was the right word.

Burying. There's a funeral. Yeah. So I. And I think that's been confusing for people, and understandably so. And, you know, in this industry, you do have to get really comfortable with people not understanding why you're doing what you're doing. And I think the. The major area to go back to your question of courage is saying, okay, Lord, but will you bless the next thing that I do? Like, Lord, will. Will your hand be on me in the. In the next season of my life and being able to say, if that season that I'm walking into now after Risen Mother has closing, if that is a quiet season of just raising my kids and there's not a lot of publicity or there's not a lot of, you know, fun looking things on the outside, is that still enough and do I still consider you faithful? And so that was the real question that I had to dive into of like, okay, I know that this is right, to end Risen Motherhood, but I don't know what's next. I don't know where he's leading me. And that's the season I'm in right now of just trusting the Lord to say, okay, I'm laying down this big platform that honestly can help sell books. It can help, you know, propel my career forward, speaking opportunities, being on this podcast. Right. Who knows if that wouldn't have even happened had I not had Risen Motherhood. So the question now is, do I trust him in this next season? And that can take a lot of courage and a lot of faith.

I noticed you're publishing another picture book this fall, which, by the way, your picture books are my favorite. I love them. And this next one, the title is your Worth Never Waivers. Are you preaching that message to yourself?

Maybe inadvertently?

I would be like, if I was walking away from this massively successful thing, I think that's the message I would need to hear. Is that conscious for you? Is it subconscious? Talk about that.

I. Yeah, I didn't really think of it in terms of Risen Motherhood, but it's certainly something that consistently I need reminded of, is that my worth and value is steadfast in the Lord no matter what I do. And that particular book is really a body image.

Yeah, yeah, I know. Yeah.

You know, it's definitely a primer for young girls. It is the book that I wish I would have had as a young girl and growing up and something that I think, yeah, it's really challenging when you start to strip away, whether that's physical beauty or that's your career, your success, whatever it is. Like, do you truly believe that because you're made a mago day in the image of Christ, that you are still valuable and worthy? And I think I do feel like, do I have value to offer the Christian industry still, or will they still want to keep publishing my books? You know, those are questions that went through my head, is like, if I let go of this platform, how is my. My publisher going to respond? You know, how is my agent going to respond? Those were scary meetings. You know, like, those did take a lot of courage to say, we're kind of pulling out this big area that they depend on and that they signed contracts with me on. And so, yeah, that was a big deal.

I think that willingness to be misunderstood is the key to this, and I think that's universal whether you're an author or not. I think anyone listening, whether they're barista or an accountant or an author can resonate with that. Can you point to any practices, any habits, anything that God has used in your life to cultivate that comfort? I don't know if comfort's the right word, that willingness to be misunderstood.

Yes, I definitely can. I mean, I think that this is something that someone once a few years ago said to me, laura, the Lord is only asking you to be faithful in the life you're already living. And I think that when I feel misunderstood, I have to remind myself that, does my husband agree with the decisions I'm making? Do my close friends say, yep, you're not sinning, you're not doing something wrong. We affirm this does. You know, my church, my pastor, is everybody kind of in alignment on what I'm doing going forward? And if that's true and I'm following biblical principles, then I can walk in freedom and I can be misunderstood because they don't determine my value. Again, we talked about that's inherently in the Lord, but then also, like, for me, I think realizing I need to listen to my own conscience, I need to listen to the areas where God is directing me, and that's often through people in my life. But then outside of that, like the random Reddit thread that I'm on doesn't get to determine whether or not I'm going to continue in ministry. You know, they don't get a say, hypothetically.

Hypothetically.

Hypothetically. Nothing will come up if you go on Reddit with my name. Nothing. But, you know, it's like, that's the thing is, is. And what I find interesting for me personally, is that I don't really mind being misunderstood by the Internet, but I do mind being misunderstood by my friends in real life or my peers in real life. And. And that's certainly been something to work through as well. But that's. That's a whole other discussion.

So I'm the opposite. Maybe not the opposite, but in addition to caring what my close friends think, I do care about what strangers think. I think a lot of people do. So here's one practical thing I'm doing to work out this misunderstood muscle. I'm driving the speed limit these days.

Ooh, look at you.

You want to talk about being misunderstood? Nothing is more misunderstood than that. I do not say that in a legalistic or fair Sega way, but, man, if you want. If you want to practice people hating you and you being okay with it, driving 45 miles an hour down the road in the right lane. In the right lane, yes. All right, Laura, I am confident we've got listeners right now who are trying to decide whether it's time to walk away from a job, whether it's time to walk away from a project, a side hustle, whatever. What advice would you give them for how to think about that decision in a God honoring way?

Yeah, well, this is so good. I mean, I would first start with really coming to the Lord in prayer. I mean, that's always the place to start, is asking the Lord, even in specific ways, like, God, will you affirm this decision through your people or through your word, like God? God is really incredible. The power of prayer has just been so, I don't want to say ingrained in me, but I think I've seen a new side of it as I'm starting to walk this really unknown season. Like, right now, I feel like I'm kind of in the wilderness just asking God, show me that you love me, show me that you care. Show me that what that decision is that I would know deep in my soul. And so asking for clarity and peace, I think is the first place to start. But then second, start talking with wise mentors, talk with your spouse, if you have one, talk with your kids, if they're of age and can weigh into these things, talk with friends and see, hey, are people affirming like, yeah, I see this would be a great decision for you or, you know, no, here's all my hesitancies, here's my concerns and worries. So really, I think listening to the people of God and the people he has around you, I think also asking kind of the questions that I started with, Lord, if I stay in this job, can I say that you're still good? And Lord, if I go from this thing that you've given me, can I say that you're still good? And I think you want to be able to get to that point. But I think at the end of the day, remember that you have freedom. You have freedom to stay and you have freedom to go. And you can trust that, like wherever you head, the Lord is going to care for you and that there isn't anything that the world can give you that you don't already have. And there's nothing it can take away because you have everything you need in Christ. And so when we make our decisions from that spot, like, you can't fail.

Yeah, that's exactly right. And I've been thinking a lot about this lately. I wrote this devotional series called God's Will for your work. And basically the whole point of it was like, listen, Scripture speaks very little about God's will as this future state of whether to quit or persevere a which job to take, what to launch next for Laura with or whatever. It talks a lot about his will for us today, which is just faithfulness. Right. And if we are being faithful and seeking first the kingdom of God, I don't know that God particularly cares.

Agreed. I totally agree.

Talk more about this.

Yeah, well, I think that this is one of those things where, you know, at Risen Motherhood, one big thing we do with moms is we talk about, you have freedom. Know, we started this podcast talking about what diapers do I use. Well, mom, you have freedom to pick whatever diapers serve you best. Go forth. And I think that's the same way in our lives is that we make these decisions of, especially in ministry. Right, Jordan? Like, it kind of feels like, hey, this is an extra holy decision. Like, I extra need the Lord to bless this or affirm this. But I think at the end of the day, we do have so much freedom that God is asking us, hey, what, what's your heart motivation in this? You know, what's your behavior? How are you acting? Who are you pointing people towards? And from there, as we say, okay, Jesus, it's all about you. Like, we have total freedom to go out and live our lives. I know there was this time recently where I was, like, at church and they were talking about, you know, living on mission for God. And I was like, okay, God, I went on a walk later. I'm like, what should I do? Should I quit my job? Do I need to get a job at a church? Like, do I need to work for a church? Should I give all my money away? And I'm genuinely asking God these questions. Questions like, how do I give it all for you? And you don't want to know, like, what he convicted me with in my spirit. It was like, hey, Laura, be a little more patient with your kids. You know, go serve your husband. Hey, go live the life I've already given you. It wasn't, go do this grandiose big thing in his name and just like, move a big mountain, put my family in another country. As a missionary, the most glorifying thing I could do for him in that moment is, was to live the life I'm already living and to just encourage people in his name and to represent him.

Because God doesn't need us to do anything, right? He wants us. And being with him requires being obedient to, not requires. But we feel that Sense of intimacy as we are obedient to his commands. So be obedient to his commands with what he's already given us. All right. I love the freedom. Talk about the actual, actual executing of this decision, though, because, listen, the gospel should color everything we do, including how we quit, including how we sunset something. Right? How are you guys sunsetting this organization differently because of your apprenticeship to Jesus than you would sunset a different organization without the Holy Spirit inside of you?

Yeah, I think that is a wonderful question. I mean, one big thing is we started out by just asking. We have an incredible board, and we asked them, hey, what would be most appropriate here? What should we do? And especially as we thought about, do we keep content up? Do we not like, how do we serve the women? Well, who are in our community, who have given us these years and years of listening and engaging with our podcast, they were really at the forefront of everything that we did in this, this particular sunset. I think, too, we really thought through, okay, how do we. How do we just think and glorify God throughout the process? You know, what does that look like? To not walk away saying, wow, look what Laura and Emily did. They are just so incredible. They built this ministry. And that's. You know, people do say that, and I have learned to just humbly receive that and not feel like, oh, I have to deflect and be weird. Right. There's a whole theology about receiving compliments and celebration. Right. But we have said, how do we really celebrate what God has done and recognize that all of this is from Him? It wouldn't be anywhere but without Him. And so we're actually hosting a big party on April 5th, and we're really excited for that. We're going to just have a simulcast and be able to just allow our community to enter in. And we're going to talk about the things that God has done. And we've really worked to communicate this really well. Like I said, we're thinking about our community most. And so it's not, hey, how do we do this quickly? How do we do this as fast as we possibly can? In fact, we drawn it out longer than we've wanted to, but because we've really felt like we want to bring the moms along who have a generation of moms who've really grown up with us in motherhood, and we've said we want to say goodbye really well, and we want to do it together. And so we've, in fact, almost extended it a full year that more, or actually a few years more than We've probably originally wanted to. And for us and Emily and myself, we just said, hey, we want to be faithful to the end. We want to steward this well to the end. And, you know, it took a little bit to get going and there were. And so it makes sense that there would take time to sort of off ramp it as well and not just be like, okay, see you guys, we're done.

Yeah. Yeah, it's good. I love how thoughtful you guys have been and how. How much time you spent, and it's really good. Hey, I know you're still not 100% sure what's next for you, and I love that. I love that you're holding that loosely. Personally, I hope kids books and poetry are a big part of your future. You've been writing and sharing a lot more poetry lately. How did this dart.

Oh, I love that you're asking me this. Yeah, this was 2020, the year that we all.

The year everybody did something new.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I started homeschooling my kids, and we were, of course, doing a poetry unit because all good homeschoolers, that's what you do. My kids are in public school now, but, you know, my daughter went into public school and literally, Jordan, she could not read. They were like, she needs reading help assistance. And I was like, yeah, that's. That's on me.

That's on me. I'll take that. I'll own that.

Yeah, within, like, four months, she was fine. But it was totally state the mom mom feature. Anyway, I was teaching them poetry and I was like, man, this is cool. Like, let's try. And it was kind of one of the assignments, so I did it with them and I just started publishing a little bit of that on Instagram. I've been a writer online since 2010, so there's not as much trepidation or fear with trying new things online that I think sometimes people experience. So I just started publishing, not even necessarily realizing, hey, this is true poetry. It was more. I would have called it emotive writing or something like that. And people started saying, oh, I love this poem. I love this. And I was like, oh, okay. And it just resonated. It just. People enjoyed it. And so I was writing more. I was loving it. And for me, it really felt like I had come home in my writing. I was, like, worshiping. I was, like, crying writing these things. It was wild. And again, I've written in all sorts of ways just like you like lots of different types of modes of writing and really felt like, wow, this is, this is what I think I meant to do. And the Lord was blessing it as well. And so now I'm, I'm a poet, I guess. I don't know.

I don't know. I will say this, like, I do think there's something deeply rewarding and in spiritual in a way when you're creating in a new medium. I don't know if that's true for you, but like the first time I went from trade book to kids book, that was magical. First time I went for kids. I've mentioned this very briefly. I wrote a pilot for what Lord willing to be my first TV show. That was magical. Right now I'm like, cool, like, what's next? Like, what's the next medium? I love going from zero to one in a new medium. It sounds like that's what you were experiencing.

Totally. Well, and it's so interesting you say that because I think of, you know, some of my favorite writers, they've been doing the same type of writing their whole, their whole career. And I'm like, I love starting new things and trying different, like you said, different mediums. And there is like a thrill, there's a big dopamine hit that comes out of it. And I've also realized, though I'm a starter. I bet you are, as well as an entrepreneur. You know, I'm not the person who's going to keep it running forever, but I'm going to start it. And so learning that about myself has also helped. And knowing like, hey, I need a lot of different creative outlets in order to stay satisfied in my career. And they can all be like under the umbrella of writing and creativity. But there's a lot of things.

Yeah. So as you've been getting a poetry. Have you. Do you know this poet who lived in the 18th century named Hannah Moore? Are you familiar with this name? Oh my gosh.

Tell me more.

Whiffler, I am sending. Well, hold on. I'm gonna send you this. So on May 6th, I'm dropping my next book. Talk about creating new mediums. Very different medium. This book called Five Mere Christians. This collection of binge worthy biographies. I've never written biography. I've never written anything that reads like fiction. I've never written with a co writer. This is very new for me. Me and one of the five people whose stories I tell is this woman named Hannah Moore. She was. Remained single her whole life and no big deal in her lifetime. Basically abolished the slave trade through poetry. Right. She's incredible. Right.

Okay.

But she used her Poetry. She was very methodical about. She's like, I'm going to use this art form to shape people's hearts around this issue that I care. Right. Really, really deeply about. And I've seen you, Laura, use your poetry on Instagram to push back on some issues, some cultural assumptions around disabilities, whatever. Are you thinking about that intentionally? Like, are you like, oh, man. Like, I could write nonfiction, expository stuff about disabilities, but I don't know, maybe artistic poetry is a better way to do it.

Yeah. Oh, I absolutely am. I mean, just call me Hannah Moore, apparently. But yes. I mean, that is. There are some poems you write just for yourself, you know, or you write with a friend in mind. And there's always. There's always the reader. You know, you and I both know we have that person in mind. But there are certainly some poems, like, I wrote one called the Men I Know, and it's all about great men, that there are just good men in our lives. And I wrote that, I don't know, 20, 21, especially in the height of a lot of the conversation around, you know, men being horrible and all this stuff. And so I definitely think about what's going on in culture that I specifically can speak to in my own experience. I don't want to dabble in areas that I don't have experience in or I'm not an expert on, because, you know, the Internet's coming for you. You know, they're gonna. You. If you're gonna write it, you gotta back it up. And so I really love writing those kind of poems, though, because I do think people are more willing to engage in that medium because they're like, well, what are you really saying? Or it just feels softer, you know? And then I also, at the end of the day, when someone's like, I'm confused. What do you mean? I'm like, well, I don't know. What do you think?

That's Right. It's kind of like a parable that Jesus told.

Exactly. Yes. So it's. You can always deflect. So. Yeah.

Yeah. And I just. I don't know. I think art travels faster than exposition. Right. I think. I think art can, I don't know, just capture people's hearts before exposition could capture their minds. Right.

For sure.

And so I love that you're in, honestly, which talked about your picture book, like, me about disabilities before we started recording. I think that's what that is. It's a beautiful. A piece of art that is softening people's hearts to people with disabilities. Right.

Yes. Yep. No, that's exactly right. That's why I wanted to write it. Poetry, just like you're saying. And kids books. I think people are more willing to engage in them. That's why I have so much fun with kids books, because parents will write me and be like, oh, I had never thought about disability this way or prayer this way or whatever it is. And it's wild to me that people not. It's not anymore. It shouldn't be. But it still does surprise me where they learn things through children's books. And yet I learned. So why am I surprised when people say, I learned something through your book?

You know, I think I own the domain name picturebooksforparents.com. i've never used it, but, like, I know. Isn't that good? Isn't it good? But, like, that's 100% what I'm doing with my picture.

Yes. Thinking about the parent.

Yeah. Like, I'm writing for. It's a bluey episode. Right. Like, yeah, I wrote it for your 5 year old, but I really wrote it for you.

Yes.

Right.

Yep.

I love that so much. All right, Laura, four questions. We wrap up every episode with number one. As you know, I've been writing a lot about the new Earth. You endorse my children's book, the Royal. And you talking about work on the new Earth. What job do you want to be doing for millions of years? Free for the curse of sin.

I love that. I think. I don't know if this cliche to say, but I want to be a writer. I want to keep writing. And I can't wait to know what it's like to, like, not have writer's block or, like, have a day where you're like, this all just. It stinks. Everything I wrote, terrible, you know? So I'm ready to go and feel what it's like to be a writer, be a poet without sin. Can't wait.

Hanging out with Hannah Moore around a campfire, trading poems. That sounds amazing, right? All right, if we opened up your Amazon order history, which books would we see you gifting most frequently to others?

Oh, man. A Grace Disguised how the Soul Grows Through Loss by Jerry Sitzer.

Oh, my gosh. Okay, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold the phone, hold the phone. So this whole conversation we just had a few minutes ago about freedom and God's will in the present, not this future, My thinking on that has been shaped by Jerry Setzer more than anybody. He's the man on this. He's so good. What's. Wait. But What's a grace disguised? I haven't read this.

This is his book on grief. And it's really just that element that any suffering, any grief, any hardship is a grace disguised because he lost his wife.

Right?

Yes. And it's primarily like that's the impetus for this book. And it's been a bit since I've read it, but I read it when my daughter was going through diagnosis and we were just in a really hard season of our life, marriage, all the things. And it really just met me where I was at, of honoring and recognizing the pain of life on a broken earth, but also the promise of. Of consummation and of the Lord coming back and the redemption and hope we have today. And so it really met me. And so in terms of like a book that I gift, I feel like that is one that's just a solid go to for anyone going through.

It's a really great answer. Hey, who would you want to hear in this podcast talking about how their faith shapes their work? Ideally, not a Christian author. We try not to have a ton of Laura Whifflers as amazing as Laura Whiffler's on. We have janitors and CEOs and scientists and.

I mean, have you ever had someone on with real estate?

No. You know What? We're almost 300 episodes deep into this thing. I don't think we have, which is mind boggling to me.

Do you know how many realtors there are out there?

There's a few. There's a few.

A realtor. My whole family's in real estate, but both my brothers are solid believers and they're great real estate agents. Well, one of them's a real estate agent. Another one is in, like, small business. He, like, buys and sells businesses.

I love it.

It's great.

It's a great answer. Yeah, we don't have real estate people. It's good.

I don't know how they would do on the mic, but I do like the idea of hearing somebody.

They make for tough interviews. I'll say that.

I would say it's like not a professional podcaster.

Those interviews are tough.

But also, listen to me. Look at all my problems I'm having with you right now.

That's true. We've had dogs beeping refrigerators. Even the pros don't get it right every time, guys. All right, Laura, you're talking to this global audience of your Christians who are doing a lot of different things vocationally. What's something from our conversation you would want to reiterate to those listeners before we sign off.

You know, I would want them to really remember the freedom in Christ. You know, we talked about that a bit earlier, that just that in. In the Lord, like, there are so many things you can do to his glory and that living for the Lord does not look like. I'm always singing hymns and I'm always on my knees praying, and I am, you know, all my money, I'm just living in total utter poverty because all my money has gone to somebody else. I think that remembering that God's life is the abundant life and that he wants us to enjoy it, and that ultimately our life does not have to look like our neighbors. It doesn't have to look like someone on Instagram, it doesn't have to look like our parents, whomever it is. This probably a conglomeration of people that we've put together to say, this is the ideal person. No, all you need to be is you. And so walk on the path that the Lord has for you, where you have. Where he has you. And remember that it is typically far more about your heart than it is about exactly what you do. And that in Christ there's a lot of freedom to live an abundant life.

That's really good. Laura, I want to commend you for the exceptional work you have done, are doing, will continue to do for God's glory and the good of others. Thank you for reminding us of the freedom we have in Christ. And thank you for reminding us of how to end well and with freedom today. Hey, guys, if you want to keep up with Laura and wherever she lands next, you can find her@laurawiffler.com we'll make sure to put that in the show notes. Laura, thanks for hanging with us today.

Thanks for having me.

I loved that conversation with Laura. I hope you guys did as well. Hey, I mentioned in that conversation Hannah Moore, this woman who wrote poetry to shape culture and glorify God. And there's this other aspect of Hannah Moore's life that I absolutely love, and it's her holy audacity. This was a single woman in the 18th century with very little money, with no political power, and yet she believed that with her pen she could help bring an end to the slave trade in Great Britain. And then she actually did it. She believed that God was able to do immeasurably more through her than all she could ask or imagine. See Ephesians 3. And she provides a great model for us today. Whether you are like Laura, stepping into a new chapter at work or simply simply need to tackle your current work with an expanded vision for what's possible. So hey listen, if you want to learn more about how you can follow Hannah Moore's example and glorify God in your work, pick up a copy of my new book, Five Mere Christians. You can learn all about it at 5merechristians.com. Thank you guys for listening and I'll see you next week. Hey friends, this is your last chance to claim all the amazing pre order bonuses for five mere Christians before they go away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9. I've never offered this many pre order bonuses on a book before, so when you fill out the form@5merechristians.com Number one, you're going to be entered to win an incredible trip for you and a friend to tour CS Lewis's favorite spots in Oxford, explore Olay, Kirk Christensen's former stomping grounds at Lego headquarters in Denmark, and much more. Number two, you'll be invited to join my first ever interactive reading, culminating in a zoom call with me and my co author on this book, Kaylee Cox. Number three, you're going to be getting a money back guarantee to try the book risk free. And number four, you'll also get access to a free course I'm not selling anywhere called how to write a book 10x faster and better with an Affordable co Author. You can claim all these bonuses in just two simple steps. Step 1 Pre order 5 mere Christians in any format you want. It can be hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever and you can order it from wherever. It doesn't matter to me. Step 2 Go to 5Mere Christians.com and fill out the form of that page and that's it. I'll send you all those bonuses. You'll be entered into the sweepstakes with one simple form submission. But hey, don't wait all of these off, all of these offers, all these bonuses. They're going away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9th. So visit 5Mere Christians.com right now to claim your bonuses.