Lindsey Ray (Nurse Practitioner)

The episode you're about to listen to was released back when the Mere Christians podcast was called the Call to Mastery. Now, if you love Mere Christians, you're still going to love these older episodes because the majority of each conversation focuses on how the gospel influences the work of our guests. With that disclaimer out of the way, please enjoy the episode. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I'm Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. Every week I'm bringing you a conversation with somebody who loves Jesus and also loves their career and is pursuing world class mastery of their craft. We're talking about each guest's path to mastery, their daily habits, and how their faith influences their work. As you guys know, some of our most popular episodes have been with people who are world class at what they do, but not at all world famous. And I'm bringing you another one of those episodes today with Lindsay Ray, one of my wife's best friends since college. She's a masterful nurse practitioner, exceptional at what she does as measure by her peers as well as my own personal experience. Back in December, Lindsay actually sent me to the emergency room. That was fun. Fun fact. Lindsay and I actually discovered a few years ago that we're related. Like 10 years after she and I met, we figured this out. Some weird, long, distant cousins. I don't know, can't even remember the full story, but Lindsay and I recently sat down in the very unglamorous setting of my closet at home while she and her family were in town for the weekend. We talked about why your obedient absence from your kids may be better than your disobedient presence with them. Really interesting section of the conversation. We talked about how to avoid envying other people's callings and just staying committed to the work God has given you to do. And we talked about the life changing hire that I recently made and Lindsay's plan to copy it at home. And by the way, spoiler alert. You can do this too. It's been a game changing hire for my wife and I to be more present with our kids at home. And I'm gonna make you listen to the episode to figure out what that is. So without further ado, please enjoy this conversation with one of my best friends, Lindsay Ray. Lindsey. Thank you for doing this while you're in town.

No problem. So excited.

This is what real podcasting looks like. In the closet.

It's fancy.

While our kids sleep, kids sleep Upstairs. Podcasting isn't glamorous, right? Yeah, this is something else. So, hey, if you guys are enjoying the Call to Mastery, you have Lindsay to thank, I think, because I think you've been asking me for three years to do a podcast. You're a big fan of podcasts.

I am.

Yourself. Why do you love the medium? I've talked about this before. Like, I don't listen to podcasts. I've never been a huge fan of the medium. I'm becoming one. But why have you loved the medium for so long?

Well, to be honest, it. It stemmed from me having such a long commute to work, and I wanted a way to fill that time. And once I had stumbled upon a couple podcasts that I really liked, and once you subscribe, there you go. You're in there. You're in. You're all in.

So we were talking. We were talking earlier today. You just took a new role still as a nurse practitioner. Right. But at a. At a closer office to your home. And your commutes going down to pretty much nothing. So what's going to be left in your. In your.

I mean, I'm going to.

What are you going to be listening to?

I'm going to have to choose a couple favorites and unsubscribe.

What are those favorites?

So my favorite, the one I've listened to the longest is the Happy Hour with Jamie Ivey.

Yeah.

I'm also a big fan of the pop cast with Knox McCoy and Jamie Golden. Yeah. And I mean, of course, the Call.

To Mastery, of course that's getting cut. Let's. Let's face it, popcast and. And Happy Hour Jamie Ivey are going to. Are going to stand the. What makes those shows great, in your opinion?

I would say both of them have kind of been going for a while, so I think they've just probably gotten really good at what I realize the podcast has been going, I would say at least. At least three or more years, I think. So. I mean, I think that they've just gotten really good at what they do, you know, over the years. I enjoy. On the Happy Hour, I enjoy the guests that she has on. It's Somebody different, a different story every week. And the podcast, they're pretty funny, so, yeah, they're entertaining. Yeah.

Yet somebody suggested that we get the podcast hosts on the Call to Mastery, because these are. They are. They love Jesus.

They do. They also have a second podcast called the Bible Binge.

I've heard of this.

Yes.

Yeah.

And they're. They're great. That would Be a great.

That'd be fun.

Yeah.

All right, we got to. We got to get them on. What are their names?

Knox McCoy.

Knox McCoy. What a name.

Yeah. And Jamie Golden.

I want to be friends with a guy named Knox.

They're great.

That's a great name. So can you give the really quick timeline of your career from college? I mean, medicine's, like, so predictable, right? So you're in school, where we met. You majored in nursing. Right. What's. What's the trajectory from there?

So I. I mean, I'm one of these unusual ones that knew very early on what I wanted to do with my life. I knew exactly that I wanted to be a nurse practitioner from the time I was a junior in high school.

Wow.

And so that was the path I was on it. So, yes, I went to fsu, where we met, majored in nursing, finished my bachelor's in nursing when I was only 20.

Okay.

And I forget, you're younger than me. Yeah.

Yeah, barely.

Yes, barely.

Let's not get ahead of us.

Yes. So in the nursing world, you have to work for a couple years before you can even apply to nurse practitioner school. You have to have some nursing experience. So I got my two years under my belt and then immediately applied to the family nurse practitioner program at unf, University of North Florida in Jacksonville, where I live. And I did that program part time, so it took me three years to finish that. So I finished when I was 26. Okay. And started at the clinic I'm at now.

So how long have you been working there?

Six and a half.

Six and a half years?

Yeah.

Okay. So you're a pretty rare breed amongst millennials. Like, one knowing what you want to do from such an early age and then sticking with it, I mean, that. That's an incredibly rare thing. I think that's a gift. What was it about medicine that, like, as a junior in high school, you're like, yep, this is the thing.

So it started I wanted to actually be a missionary nurse. I didn't know this. That was the original idea.

Yeah.

And I think it truly was from, I mean, being raised in the church, in youth group, and kind of having this idea of, I want to serve others, you know, I, I. It felt very much like serving Jesus to me, to be serving others in healthcare. And I thought, if I can do this, like, overseas or, you know, serve the underserved kind of thing, then it sounded like a great thing to me, and that's really what I wanted to do. And that kind of morphed from Missionary nursing into being a family nurse practitioner. But. But early on, I mean, I decided that was the path I wanted to take.

So the draw was like, very much. This is a very tangible expression serving.

Of Jesus's love and service.

I love it. So most people change what they want to do 10 times in college and in the years after graduation. I'm one of that majority. What do you think? What do you think made you so focused? Like, other than this desire to serve, why do you think you stayed on that path?

I also just think it's a little bit my personality. I'm kind of just a stick to it kind of person, you know, I decided I wanted to run a half marathon. I trained and I ran a half marathon. You know, I decided I wanted to have babies without pain medicine. I had babies without pain medicine, you know.

Is still insane.

Well, it is insane.

We talk about this a lot.

I don't recommend it.

In Ray Rayner vacations, we talk about this a lot. But.

But yeah, I'm just sort of. That if I. Maybe it's stubbornness, I don't know. But I make up my mind, I say, I'm doing it. That's what I'm gonna do, you know, and that's kind of how it was. I just was like, no, I decided this is what I'm doing, and that's what I'm doing.

Yeah. And you have no regrets of, like, committing to something that early in your career?

Not at all. I literally feel like I'm living the dream of what I've wanted to do from the time I was probably 14.

I think most people who are truly achieving master of a field, like, have a moment or maybe, maybe a season of their careers that they can look back on and say, you know what? Like, yeah, that was the moment where I realized I'm good at this thing. Right. Like, I'm curious if there was, like, a particular moment for you where, like, yep, I'm good at this. This is what I was meant to do in service of others.

I think that's happened a couple times because I've done this as a couple different roles. First, I was a nurse, and I work in ICU intensive care. And I remember for the first at least two years, there was this corner in the hallway that. To the entrance of the icu. And every time I would round that corner going to work, I would just get a sick feeling in my stomach. Like, it's just. There's so much responsibility. You're caring for people's lives. I mean, you know, this is a really big deal.

And I was in, like, their most fragile.

In their most fragile state. I mean, possibly at the end of their lives, you know, or oftentimes at the end of their lives. And I was also so young doing that. So I just remember feeling sick every day, going to work, thinking, you know, can I really do this? Am I really enough, you know, to handle this? And I would say after a good couple of years, I finally started to feel, you know, like, okay, I'm getting better at this. This is. I do feel like this is where I'm supposed to be, what I'm supposed to be doing. And eventually, by the time I transitioned out of that role into the nurse practitioner role, I was already. I was an assistant nurse manager of the icu. I was doing rapid response, which is where, you know, if on a regular floor is concerned about their patient, they'll call you to come assess them. And, you know, so I feel like I had really advanced to proficiency in what I was doing by that time. And then now I would say I feel that way as well in the nurse practitioner role. But again, it was almost like starting over in a new role. But I, yes, I have gotten to a point where I feel like, yeah, I'm good at this. I enjoy doing it. I think my patients enjoy coming to see me. I think I take good care of people.

So, yeah, so you're a good example of, I think, somebody who has followed the conventional millennial career wisdom, which I really attack pretty hard in Master 1. Right. So follow your passions, follow your dreams, do whatever makes you happy. And I attack it because, you know, I think a lot of us expect that when we get that first job that aligns with the pre existing passion. So for you, maybe that was nursing. We expect to have this, like, cosmic level, ultimate sense of happiness, like, almost instantly. Right. But I got to imagine that, like, especially those first few years as a nurse, there was a lot of crap, maybe literally, also. Also figuratively, like. So I'm just curious to get your perspective on that. Like, was it harder than you expected? Did you find that your happiness, your vocational joy kind of grew over time? Like, what does that look like for you?

Yes, I definitely think even now, there are times when it's. It just kind of can feel like work, you know, I mean, I think that's true for anybody. You'd be lying if you said there weren't days that it was just work to you, you know, and it can feel, especially when there seems to be, you know, work, politics or organizational Stuff.

Going on or, or cleaning up feces.

Yeah, cleaning up feces for sure is, is a deterrent. But yeah, I mean, you know, you can start to feel a little bit like you're a workhorse, you know, a little bit. Even though I'm. I know I'm doing what I'm meant to do and I. It does feel like a dream most of the time, I still think, yes, you can. You know, it's all in your perspective. You have to remind yourself all the time. You know, this is my calling. This is what I'm supposed to be doing. And not get yourself bogged down by work drama or politics or, you know, whatever the case may be.

Or circumstances.

Or circumstances. Yes.

Right. And just recognizing that like passion does grow with competency over time, like joy comes in serving others well and get you a place where you're masterful at your crap to serve others well.

Right.

So I'm curious to get your perspective on. I think there's this idea in fields like law or medicine. Right. That it is innate intelligence that is the best predictor of mastery. Right. Rather than grit. I'm curious to get your perspective on that. What is it that most predicts mastery of your craft?

I would say I think you can kind of teach anybody anything.

Yeah.

You know, I think that maybe it's the people who are a little bit naturally more book smart or whatever to pursue those careers. I don't know. But I do think there is another element to it and I think that that's probably, at least for me in medicine, I think it's being able to relate to people.

Yeah.

I think that you have to be a little bit of a people person and be able to communicate well. Talk with patients, talk with families. You hear all the time in medicine especially, you know, oh, he's a good doctor, but he has terrible bedside manner. Well then, then are you really great, you know, if you have terrible bedside manner?

Right.

So I mean, maybe if you're, I guess if all people care about is purely life or death, which is important. But a lot of people when they're going, when they're choosing what healthcare provider to go see, they also want someone they feel like they can talk to and that they feel like listens to them and you know, so I think that those people skills and those communication skills and things like that are also really important. So I think it's both.

So that brings up an interesting question like how aside from, you know, life death ratios, how do you measure mastery in your craft? Like you don't Win awards. You're not publishing papers. As a practitioner, like, when you pick doctors for your kids or you pick doctors for yourself, how do you distinguish masterful practitioners from not?

So from an organizational standpoint. Right. We get numbers. Like, we get charts that show us, this is how many patients you saw, and this is how much revenue you generated for our company. Yeah. And I think that has nothing to do with being masterful at your craft. I mean, it's great if you can be efficient. Yes. And. And you want to make money for your company because that's what keeps places running.

Yeah.

But that's really not what makes you great. I think how you measure success is. I mean, I get probably somewhere between 3,000 and 3,500 patient visits per year. I'm sitting in a room with a patient for 20 or so minutes over 3,000 times in a year, and that's my chance to make an impact on that life. And so when we get comment cards that say, I love seeing Lindsay, you know, she makes me feel so comfortable. She makes me feel like I can tell her anything. She really listens to my concerns. That's what makes me feel like I'm doing an exceptional job. Not necessarily. You cranked through this many patients in a day. Because anybody can walk in a room and spend five minutes with a patient and walk out, and the patient feel like nothing really even happened. And they can still have, quote, unquote, good numbers. But it's really the difference you're making in lives that matters, in my opinion.

That's an interesting perspective, because really, what you're talking about is masterful medical professionals are serving both their employer well. Right. By putting up the right numbers.

Yes.

While also finding a way to serve their customer well. Right. And who you're serving at the end of the day, which, for you, are your patients.

Right.

So it's not either or. Right, Right. It's. It's both. In your case, I was interviewing actually another nurse practitioner for Master of One, our friend Jessica Jones here in Tampa. And I was basically asking, like, how do you pursue mastery of your craft as a medical professional? And her answer was, like, so underwhelming. But I think there was a lot of brilliance. And she was like, yeah, like, mastery medicine is just mundane. It's just, like, following the protocols and, like, doing your job, like, really well. Like, by the book. Has that been your experience? Like, is the pursuit of mastery mundane? In medicine, we do make a lot.

Of decisions about the care of patients based on current guidelines or current protocols. So there is an element to it that is you need to be going to conferences every year and you need to be educating yourself on what are the current guidelines, what has changed in the past year, how are we treating COPD now? How are we treating hypertension now? Is there something, you know, that I need to know? Is there a new medicine out there that I need to be using? So, I mean, some. I would say there's definitely an element that's that. But I also think, just like I said before, that there's this huge communication piece, you know, with patients. You need to be able to communicate why it's important that they take care of their health and the reasons behind that and what can happen if they don't. And you needed to be able to do a good job communicating that to them, because that's really part of your job too, is educating the patient, not just making the right decisions for them, but helping explain why it's important, and then helping them to make the decision really for their own health, including them as part of the decision making as well.

So I'm curious, what are one of the common threads of mastery? I talk about this in Master of One is this principle of frequent discomfort. Right. So masters never settle for where they're at. They never plateau. They're always putting more weight on the bar and refusing to get comfortable in their craft. What are the symptoms that, like, you're getting too comfortable in your role when you're doing 3,000 patient visits a year.

Right. So I think this happens a lot where, especially in medicine, you have to remind yourself all the time that this is people's lives that you're dealing with. And you don't want to get too comfortable because if you do, you can miss something really important. And I mean, also there's something called liability. Right, Right.

There's also that.

There's also that. So you want to.

That's a pretty helpful deterrent.

Yes, absolutely. So it's definitely something that is at the forefront of your mind all the time. We're always thinking about, am I missing something here? This happens where you, after the patient leaves, you look something up as far as guidelines go, or symptoms or diagnosis or treatment of what are the guidelines for the treatment of this, you know, or you collaborate with, you know, one of the physicians or a colleague and say, hey, you know, this is the situation. Let me just bounce this off of you and tell me what you think about this. Because the last thing we ever want to do is miss something that's really important with someone's health. You Know, So I think that constantly being aware of that and then. Because sometimes it happens, right? You see a patient, you think it's one thing, you treat it one way, and then you get to work the next day and you find out, oh, that patient didn't get any better. They went to the ER last night or something, you know, and you. And it's a wake up call. And you think, was I paying attention? Did I? Was I looking for the right things? Did I treat it the right way? And you just have to always be aware, always be on the top of your game and thinking about what you need to do next.

Yeah. That requires a certain level of humility, though. So I can't remember if I told you this, so when you asked me to go to the emergency room back in December.

I'm sorry about that, Jordan. Okay. I care about you and your wife and children.

Thank you very much. You care about the call to mastery. You want the podcast to be going. I totally get it.

I more want your children to still have a father.

So there's that. So. No, but I went to. After I went to the emergency room and they gave me this prescription for antibiotics. I went to Publix, I dropped off the prescription, and I asked the pharmacist. I was like, hey, I'm assuming that this antibiotic is supposed to replace the antibiotic I'm already on. And she's like, no, no, no, I'm pretty sure you're supposed to take both. I'm like, okay, that sounds weird, but all right, I'll go home and take both. And I was really impressed. Like, 30 minutes later, Publix called back and she's like, hey, you know what? I wasn't super confident about that, even though I acted confident to you. So I went to my supervisor and asked for clarity. And you're actually, like, not supposed to take both, so hopefully you haven't done that. But no, I appreciate it because it required a level of humility. I mean, she's filling prescriptions every single day. I think for anybody mastering any craft, it requires this constant sense of humility that you don't know everything.

Yes.

And to constantly be asking the right questions. So we were talking about this earlier today. I wish I had the mic on then, but we didn't. So talk about your daily routine from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to bed. What does a day in the life of Lindsay Ray look like?

Okay, so I start seeing patients pretty early. Like 7am so I'm up early.

What time do you wake up.

I wake up usually between 5:30 and 6. And I don't have a long morning routine. I pretty much am up, get dressed and ready. I get our youngest, we have three kids. I get the youngest one dressed and ready and then I'm out the door. My husband does the rest with the kids and does the day, hair drop off and the whole shebang. As I mentioned earlier, I have a long commute and then I start seeing patients at 7 o' clock. And I have a full schedule of patients all day long from 7 until 4:30. So I do get a 12 o' clock to 12:30 break for lunch.

Seriously? That's it?

Like you're, you're Seriously, that's it.

You're like going non. Stop.

Going non stop.

That's crazy.

Patient after patient after patient. So I mean lunch usually ends up being not really a lunch.

Yeah.

And then it's back to seeing patients. Yes. Until the day ends at 4:30. I try to leave at 4:30. It doesn't always happen. I am 100% of the time out the door by 5 because I then have a long commute back to my family for the evening. And then it's usually the mad dash of dinner and chaos and baths and bed for the kids.

Yeah.

One thing that has been part of my daily routine for over a year now. Last year I did this thing called the Bible Recap and it's basically a podcast where Tara Leigh Cobble, you read the section in a chronological plan, you read the section for the day that you're supposed to read and then she does a 5 to 10 minute podcast recap of that section. And it has been a true game changer for me as far as spiritual development goes. And so I loved it so much in 2019 that I restarted it again in 2020. So I listen, basically I just listened to the Bible on audio and then listen to her podcast. And I have time for that in commute on the way to work every morning.

I love that. I love that. I love this. Like we were talking about this earlier, I love this trend of micro audio content. I give you a sneak peek of something that I'm thinking of that I'm not ready to share with the full Call to Mastery audience. But I'm thinking about what does micro audio content look like for the future of Jord Rainer Co. And just everybody. I think it's super interesting. So I've always been curious when doctors, nurse practitioners are going patient to patient, are they literally just like coming out one door going to the next, picking up a file for two seconds, reviewing it and popping right in.

Pretty much.

Wow, like non stop pretty much. That's crazy. What does your nighttime look like? So after you get the kids to bed, how do you wind down? What time do you go to bed? How much sleep are you getting?

So after the kids are in bed, it is the mad dash to prep for the next day, which I have recently found out.

Are we gonna talk about this?

That I need to outsource that. And then usually, to be honest, it's. It's me and Paul relaxing on the couch, watching TV for, you know, for an hour or so and then hopefully the west wing bed by 10. Yeah, sometimes the west Wing.

Amen. You're welcome for that. For me. Change your life. So Lindsay. Lindsay's laughing because we. So Kara and I have tried something new as of this week. That may be the best hire I've ever made in my entire life. So we just hired a kid from the neighborhood, 14 year old kid, to come to our house every afternoon and basically do all the things that we used to do to prep for the next day. Right. So make the kids lunches for tomorrow, set up our coffee for tomorrow, get the kids medicine ready. It's a game changer. We pay our.

Liz. This is a genius idea. And I am now going to like go door to door and try to meet some neighborhood kids and figure out who I can outsource this to.

I'm not kidding. It's one of the best ideas I've ever had for eight bucks an hour. Right. Like a fourteen year old walks three doors down every day and it allows Kara and I to be fully present with our kids. I mean, that's really why we did it. Right. Like we were. I felt like every afternoon we were scrambling to get everything great for the next day. So if you take anything from this episode, not how amazing Lindsay is in her work, hire some teenager in your neighborhood to do all this work for you. So Lindsay, you know you're a longtime listener, first time caller to the call, to the call to mastery. You get the show, you know what this is all about. So I'd love to just start this faith and work conversation. Very broad and just talk about at a high level how your faith fuels your ambition for your work. I know you touched on this earlier, but go a little deeper.

Sure. So I really think it's living out the gospel, right. I mean, it's just what you talk about all the time, Jordan, which is loving your neighbor, serving them. Well, that's really the heart to me in medicine, and that's really what we are there to do. There are very few other things in life other than chronic illness. And even we deal a lot with mental health, too. Right. Like depression, anxiety, you know, things like this. There are very few other ways that you can see the fall so evident. Right. As far as suffering of people, you see it very clearly in health or lack thereof. Right. In poor health, chronic health conditions, mental illness. So to me, it's really the hands and feet of the gospel and living out. You know, I work for a Catholic healthcare ministry, and part of the mission is it starts out rooted in the loving ministry of Jesus as healer. Right. So to me, that's really the heart behind what it is, is being the hands and fe. Serving others in their sickness and their suffering, in their depression. In those times, it's serving them well.

I love that. I never thought about, like, yeah, just the regular. Every patient, 3,000 patients a year. This, like, very visible reminder of the fall. Right. Of sin. I want to talk about the other side. Right. The hope that we as Christians have of a bodily resurrection. Jesus inaugurated this promise of a bodily resurrection on that first Easter morning. I don't think the church talks about this nearly enough that all of us, as all of us who are in Christ, are promised this bodily resurrection on the new heavens and the new earth. Do you think about that, like, as a medical professional? And if so, like, how does that affect your perspective on your work?

Right. So I'll definitely be out of a job after Jesus return.

Thank God. Right? No doubt.

Yeah. Which is.

We'll find. He'll find new work, I'm sure.

I'm sure. But I mean, yeah, no more sickness, right. No more death, no more mourning, no more crying, no more pain. Right. So I won't have anything to do. He'll find me something. But, yeah, I do think it's glorious to think about, you know, because day in and day out, I see the suffering of man. You know, I see people at their worst. You know, people when they're not feeling well, people when they're frustrated with their health or their weight or their. Their physical bodies are deteriorating in some way. It is a great reminder that we do have hope. We have hope for fully, just as you said, fully resurrected bodies. We have hope in Christ that this is not all there is.

Yeah, I love just the whole medical profession, right. Is a giant signpost to the fact that, like, we are not meant to be sick. We are not meant to hurt, and just the work Every day of trying to bring healing, even when we don't succeed. Right? Even when people die, even when people continue in chronic illness, we're still reminding people that this is not how the story is supposed to end. Right? Like, it's just a constant reminder that there is a hope that we're all longing for. And as Christians, we believe that hope is real and tangible and physical. Actually physical. Not just spiritual, but also material. So we were talking about this before. I love bringing guests onto the show, especially really close friends who are absolutely 100% world class at what they do, but are not even a little bit world famous. And also importantly, have no real desire to be. I love that about a lot of the people in my life. It's just a breath of fresh air at a time when it seems like everyone wants to start a podcast and everyone wants to write a book. And obviously, I have no problem with those things. I'm a huge fan of creating content, but. But you seem very content not doing those things, and yet you consume a lot of content. For people who are so in the midst of all that content, I'm really curious how you remind yourself of the eternal significance of your work each day, but also, like, how you avoid the comparison trap and the temptation to, like, feel tempted to envy other people's gifts and callings, because I think that's something a lot of people struggle with.

Yeah, that's a great question. And I'm not going to say I've never thought about things like that, because I do listen to a lot of podcasts, and there are times I've thought, wow, that would be a cool job, or, you know, could I ever do something like that?

And then you come into Jordan Rayner's closet and you're like, just kidding. This. This really sucks.

Yeah, but look, I think you have to maximize on the gifts God has given you. And I think that there's just no way I can convince myself that what I'm doing right now is not what he has. Completely and absolutely gifted and qualified. And I am doing the work he has given me to do, and I feel really confident in that, you know, So I don't think there's any need to try to reinvent the wheel. It's great for creatives. You know, people like you, you're great at what you do. The people whose podcasts I listen to all the time, they're great at what they do, and I enjoy consuming their content. But for me, I feel really comfortable in that reminder that I'm serving others well. I'm doing the work God's called me to do to the people I'm. I'm sitting in the exam rooms with all day, every day. I am world famous to them. You know, I'm making a difference in their life. I'm giving them the medicine they need, the treatment they need, the encouragement they need, whatever it is, that's my calling. That's what I'm there to do. One of the beautiful things about medicine, too, is, and this is really probably true across the board, even of people who practice medicine who aren't believers, is we don't really care who we're treating. We treat them the same. You know, one of my patients last week had just gotten out of prison, and I see patients of all ages and economic status and shapes and sizes and races and ethnicities, and none of that matters. You're in the room with the patient and you're treating that person, and you're making all the difference in the world to them. So that's how I remind myself of the eternal significance is really to that one person in that moment. It's about them, and it's about their health and how can I make their life better in that moment.

It probably creates a lot of empathy too, right? I mean, being in the room with people who are different from you, from racial background to socioeconomic to professional whatever. Right. Like, sure, you're. They're just people, they're patients. Right. It kind of levels the playing field.

Absolutely. I mean, I grew up feeling like everyone around me pretty much looked like me, was very similar to me. I even, you know, even in college and all these kind of things, you naturally gravitate toward people who are just similar to you. And it really wasn't until I was sitting in exam rooms every day with patients who were completely different than me that I really started to feel comfortable talking to people who were different than me. And that's been a game changer, too. And it really does, again, make you feel like the hands and feet of Jesus. You know, you're doing this on a tangible level and there's no difference. Like you said, the playing field is equal. They can talk to me just the same. There's equal conversation back and forth. And that's one of the things that I try to do, is give the patient some say in their own care. And I don't. I'm not just the boss, you know, we. Things are equal and we talk it out.

I know I already said it a few minutes ago, but I want to reiterate it. Because I do think this is such a rare quality. I have so much respect for people like you who are so clear on what they're gifted at. And I think that clarity is what enables people like you to not envy the gifts of others. Right. Like once, once you realize, man, this is how God created me to be, and I'm doing the work that he created me to do. Once you're there and you're feeling God's pleasure in doing your work well, there's just not a whole lot of room to be envious of other people's callings or careers or vocations. So I just respect that a lot. So you've chosen to work full time. I'd love for you to talk a little bit about what you hope your kids, especially your girls in particular, take away from watching Mommy go to work every day.

Absolutely. This is something pretty important to me because I think it's something that every mom struggles with on one level or another. And this is something that my husband and I had decided prior to having children. We knew that I would continue to work. And there are several reasons for that. And every family has their own personal reasons for doing what they do. No matter what that decision is. And I respect no matter what it is you decide to do. If you decide to stay home and homeschool, whatever the case may be, that's important as believers too, that we have mutual respect for others and the decisions that they made. But for me personally, I want my kids, particularly my girls, to know that you don't have to be in a box. You know, you don't have to do any one certain thing that anyone tells you to do. You do what you feel led by the Holy Spirit to do. I just think that's important. I think that's important not just in career choice, but in other aspects of life too. But the Holy Spirit will lead you. God is sovereign, he is trustworthy. And whatever he calls you to do, he will equip you for, whether that is being a full time nurse practitioner or being a mom, or both. You can do both and you can do both well. And that's what I want them to know is you don't have to choose between those things, or you can if you want to, or if that's what you feel led. But you don't have to choose. And you can do both well. And you can serve the Lord both by serving patients, but also by serving them in motherhood. And I want them to see me serving others and know that Mommy wasn't with us 24 hours a day. But she was serving God by fulfilling her calling.

That's beautiful.

I once heard this quote, and it stuck with me for a long time. And it's bad because I'm not going to be able to quote who said it. So we may need to do some research on this. I'm really sorry. I actually think it was Christy Knockles podcast where I heard it, but I don't know if she was quoting someone else. But anyway, what she said was, your children will learn more from your obedient absence than from your disobedient presence. And that stuck with me. If I'm disobeying God, but I'm there, that's not where I want to be. I'd rather not be there and be serving the Lord if that's what he has for me to do. And if what he has for you to do is to be there, great. But that quote stuck with me.

I love that. And, you know, the key is being attuned to the Spirit, knowing where he's leading, whether or not he's leading you to a particular craft and working in a particular way. And, yeah, just following that call, which I'm so glad that you have done in your own life. What would be different about your work if you weren't a follower of Christ? And I'm not going to let you off the hook with a. I would care more deeply about people, which is obviously true.

Right.

Get more specific. Like what? Because, I mean, listen, you could argue any nurse practitioner, Christian or not, could care deeply for people. What is really the delta between a nurse practitioner that loves Jesus and one that doesn't?

Well, I actually think that's a really hard question, because I think I do, too.

That's why I ask it. Yeah.

I mean, and I think that most people, particularly in medicine, are doing it because they care about people, you know, and. And I also think they're doing it because they. They have this deep desire to do things well, whether or not they're a believer, you know, because it's important that things be done well in medicine. And so I do think that's a really hard question. I mean, maybe even on the surface there. There might not be that much difference, you know, as far as how it looks from the outside.

And I think that's okay, right? It is. It is common grace that God has revealed to us that, hey, there are things broken in the world. I have imprinted in your heart, believe it or not, that you are to fix these problems, you are to heal people. That's a good thing. These people, Christian or not, are carrying out the Lord's will in the world, Right. By doing their job well and doing with excellence and healing people. Right?

Absolutely. His plan is being fulfilled regardless of who it is doing it. And we see, you know, that all throughout the Bible and all throughout history. But I think at a heart level, there is a difference and there should be a difference. And I think really, we, again, we operate out of a gospel mindset. You know, we're serving others well, loving our neighbor, and truthfully working as unto the Lord.

Yeah, that's a really good answer. So you listen to the show enough? You know, the three questions I love to end with. So, books, which books are you recommending or gifting the most these days? By the way, I can answer this because you've gifted me books or I've taken some from your house.

Oh, have you?

Yeah, I think I saw some raid my bookshelf.

Every time you're at my house. There is one book in particular that I have gifted more than once in the past, and it has nothing to do with faith and work. So sorry. But it is the Insanity of God.

Yeah.

By Nick Ripken. Have you read this book?

I have not, but I see it every time I look at it, every.

Time I see it every time you're at my house. So Nick Ripken is actually not his real name. He and his wife have served in Somalia and other places with the persecuted church. And so they. He wrote the book, you know, under that name. But Paul and I have actually met this guy and his wife, and their story is unreal. So I recommend that one a lot. The Insanity of God. Yeah.

What else? Anything else?

I know you're a big Tim Keller fan.

Yeah.

Have you read the Freedom of Self Forgetfulness?

Oh, my gosh. It was his little, tiny.

I think it was probably a sermon, right?

And then it was the first thing I read of Keller's. And as soon as I got done with it, I read every book he ever wrote. Yeah, I actually just reread it, like three months ago. It's so good.

It's one of those. Because it's such an easy read. It's like a 20 minute read, probably. I mean, it's super small. I reread it, you know, every so often, but that one's great, too.

What one person would you most like to hear talk about how their faith impacts their work, maybe on this podcast?

I would love to hear Chip and Joanna Gaines on your podcast, Jordan.

I think that's the first time we've heard that answer here.

Yeah. Well, I mean, at the risk of sounding cliche, as a Southern, you know, woman.

Southern, white girl.

Yeah. Who watches Fixer Upper. But, yes, I think Chip and Joanna would be phenomenal.

That's a good answer. We'll try to get Chip and Joanna on. And last question, single piece of advice you would leave our audience with who listen are across a bunch of different vocations. I bet there are a lot of nurses out there. I bet there are a lot of people in medicine, but we have a lot of entrepreneurs and aspiring authors. But the common theme, as you know, these are people who love Jesus and want to do really extraordinary work primarily for his glory and the good of their neighbor. What one piece of advice would you leave them with?

I would say always keep perspective. Always keep the gospel and the reason, your motives, you know, in the forefront. And also, you know, treat the patient like it was your mother or your brother, you know, or your father or your sister. You want to take good care of people. You know, that's really the heart behind what we do in the medical field. But also as believers.

I was gonna say it's the same thing for customers. Right? Treat your customers as if it's your mother. That's really. That's really good advice. Lindsay, I just want to commend you and every single person in our audience that has a job like yours for going to work every day doing work that on the surface can seem ordinary and mundane, but it is extraordinarily significant, eternally and just being really extreme, effective reflections of Christ in a broken world in need of redemption. Thank you for loving your patients as yourself. Thank you for serving your employer well and like I said earlier, just serving as signposts, I think, to this bodily resurrection that we are promised in Christ. And thank you for your friendship for 15 years. Something like that. And thanks for being willing to sit.

Down with me today, Jordan. It has been an absolute honor and. And you and Kara are absolutely precious to me, so I appreciate your friendship as well. Thanks for having me on.

Always a joy to have friends like Lindsay on the show. Hey, if you're enjoying the call to Mastery, make sure you subscribe to never miss an episode in the future if you're already subscribed. You know what I'm going to ask you to do? Take 30 seconds, go review the podcast right now so more people can find these encouragement. Incredible conversations of people like Lindsay just doing good work every day in seemingly ordinary jobs, but doing it so well that they're loving their neighbor as herself through the ministry of excellence and bringing glory to our great God in the process. Hey, thank you guys so much for listening to the call to Mastery. I'll see you next week.