Luke LeFevre (Founder of Holy Work)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back guarantee on this book. I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me, right. I know this is a very different biography. What is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right? So that's the first reason this is a risk and I'm gonna de risk this book for you. Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended. End quote. But here's the thing. In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5meerchristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all the pre order bonuses listed on 5merechristians.com and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5meerchristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as physics Teachers, chiropractors, and nannies. That's the question we explore every week. And today, I'm posing it to my good friend Luke LeFever. He's formerly a board member at Dave Ramsey's company, Ramsey Solutions. Today, he works as the foundation founder of Holy Work. Luke and I sat down recently to talk through the seven stages that everybody goes through when creating anything with God, whether it's a book, a painting, homeschooling curriculum, whatever it might be. We talked about why failure in your work may be a sign of God's favor in your life. And we talked about how to journal. Well, in just 11 minutes, because I know a lot of you want to be journaling and talking to God about your work. Don't know how to do it. Luke is the guy I would point you to. Trust me, you're not going to want to miss this episode with my good friend Luke lefever. Luke lefever, welcome back.

Yeah. So good to talk to you.

Rare, repeat guest here on the Mere Christmas podcast.

Oh, is it. Is it rare?

It's very rare.

Oh, my gosh. So much has happened since I did it.

I think we've done this, like, I don't know, 10 times. Well, yeah. So the last time. Do you remember where we did this?

We did it at Ramsey, and it wasn't Dave's studio. It was maybe Ken Coleman's or. Or something like that.

Yeah, like the big, fancy studio at Ramsey headquarters. So you had a terrific. This is. Back in 2019, you had this terrific job and as chief creative officer on the board. And then in October 2022, you stepped down. What's the story there?

Oh, my gosh. Yes. So much has happened. Where to begin? Well, when you and I talked 2019, or whenever that was, God had been doing something in me. I mean, the whole time I was at Ramsey, I'm still pals with all those guys and love Dave. But in 2015, 2016, I mentioned it a little bit on the last podcast, but is when I. I read Exodus 31, and God started to show me this character named Bezalel in Exodus 31, being one of the first. Being the first person the Bible mentions as being filled with the spirit. So I read this Exodus 30:1 thing, and I always. I kind of joke that. And he, Bezalel, just ruined my life. And so that's where I heard about you, even. And that's where you and I became friends. And I was really, really happy with Ramsey. I thought I was going to be there my whole life. But I. I just had this thing inside of me that was pulling me to talk about this process that I didn't even have a name for, really, before 2019ish. And now I call it this holy work process. And what happened to me since I left was me following this poll that I had started to talk about to other people. And as I started to categorize it, a pattern showed up. And it was the pattern I saw in my life. It was the pattern I saw in other people's lives. And so I started to talk about this pattern. And I'll run through it real quick as. Cause it all is part of why I left Ramsey and on all these things. And we can talk about it more a little bit later. But I saw these. As it categorized it, there were actually seven piles of little note cards in front of me. And the first pile was all about this pull this thing inside to make something or create or just do something. There's a Bo Diddley song where the dad is talking about Bo Diddley when he was a kid or something. And the dad's like, the boy's got the boogie woogie in him, and it's got to get out. You know, that's how I felt. And as I talked to other creatives, I've felt they were feeling that same way. And as I've talked more about this, there's so many different people that feel that way. Entrepreneurs and moms and these folks who feel a pull to do something, to homeschool their kids or whatever it is. And oftentimes we don't believe that's God. We just think it is our own selfish ambition or something. But so that leads to the second little pile of cards that was about the belief that God put that thing there, which is where Bazzalo come in. And I was like, no, God wants to create things with you. He's giving ideas. He wants to do stuff with us. And so really proving that in this belief section. And then the third part is all about the practices that we have to be doing while we're seeking him and what he wants to create with this. And this is where I'm a big advocate of journaling. I talk about it all the time and how much it's changed my life and other people's lives. So the third part is about the practices. Then the fourth part is all about the war that you will go through once you start to follow this pull. And then next up is the wilderness where you just got to work through it and learn some new things. Clean up some things, act on some things, learn patience. The next part is called threshold, where you have to make some decisions and you have to cross some really hard barriers to follow this. Burn the ships. Exactly. And then lastly, eventually you get the permission that you need to go do this thing. Sometimes I call it the purpose. You move from being pulled from the pole to your purpose. And that is what I started to really talk about and think about in 2019 and started doing some little courses at Ramsey for people before work started and that kind of stuff. And then, of course, Covid hit in 2020, and it was just chaos and dumpster fires of a year, and it was basically just hold on for dear life as a board member and the chief creative officer there. And so we worked through 20, and then in 21, it was kind of aftermath of COVID and things like that. But let's see, I still had this gnawing thing, and it was actually causing some depression in me. And I was like, God, is. Is this what I'm supposed to be? Am I supposed to be at Ramsey? Am I supposed to be doing this holy work stuff like, what do you want me to do? And I didn't think anybody else was noticing any of that angst, but good pals with Jen Sivertson, who was the CMO there. And it was. I think it was right before Christmas of 21, she just. We were having a conversation. He goes, hey, you know, like, I can tell something's going on and do some work, you know, figure it out, that kind of thing. And I thought nobody else was noticing, you know, and I don't really think anybody else was, but she really was because we were pretty close. And so I took. I think it was late 21. I. I had this trip scheduled to go to Montana and go fly fishing and get my head clear. And I was reading a book, Eldridge book, I think it was called Fathered by God.

You're always reading Eldridge.

Yes, he's great. I haven't read him in a little while, actually. And he was going through these four stages of manhood and things like that. And I was really praying like, okay, God, what do you want me to do? And I felt like he was saying, embrace your role. And I feel like that's what I heard from God. And so I was like, okay, well, that means just go all in it, Ramsey. And I'm going to embrace my role and be the best chief creative officer I can be and do this stuff. And so that's what I did for the next few Months. But like I said, I was. I mean, in all honesty, I was feeling pretty depressed about it, and I just didn't have a lot of energy. So I started. Okay, God, if this is what you want me to do, if this is the cross you want me to bear, I'm going to. I'm going to do it. And I was like, I got to change my habits. I started working out. I. I had a lot of different things I started to do to get. To get my brain going again. And I did that for probably eight or nine months or something like that. And just like, okay, all in, I'm going, God, if this is what you want me to do, I'm going to figure out how to do it, even if it's sucks and it's hurting me. And I don't mean to say that everything at Ramsey sucked. It's just my heart was starting to leave and I didn't want it to. I did that for about eight or nine months, but again, it just started to creep in. And my wife, we homeschool, and so she takes a weekend before the school year starts, and I take the kids somewhere for a couple nights, and so she gets ready for the year. And so we went up to Indiana. There's a little water park up there. And I was by myself in the mornings. And so I just started really intentionally praying, like, God, I need clear direction. I need to know if it's time. And I was listening to this devotional. It was talking about St. Ignatius on this particular day. Now, I wasn't familiar with him too much at the time, but July 31 is the feast of St. Ignatius in the Catholic tradition. What the speaker was saying on the podcast I was listening to said St Ignatius was faced with a choice. And he was faced with a choice to keep doing what he has always been doing or to make a change and to become who God has really meant him to be. And I remember thinking, okay, is this about to happen? Like, is this the direction? You know, you can just feel it. And I'm like, all right. But I hear that kind of stuff all the time. People. People have to make changes and blah, blah, blah. But what she said after that, she goes, he was faced with this choice to become who God meant him to be or to stay the same. And there's a cross to bear with both. And when she said that, I was like, well, whoa. I felt some kind of. I don't know what it was, but I just felt like God was like, hey, it's okay. It's Time. And I just felt a release because I was like, no, God, I'm carrying your cross, and I'm doing the hard work, even if it's hard, and I'll do what it takes. And he goes, hey, there's a cross to bear with both. And it's time, and we're going to go somewhere. We're going to do something else now. And so then it was about the business of, oh, crap kind of a thing, because, yeah, I'd been at Ramsey for almost 15 years and was doing really well there. My family was doing great, made plenty of money, good insurance, all the things people I loved, my friends were there. And so it was. It was really, really scary. And so I. I got back to the little hotel den thing there, and I started writing it out. And the next part was, oh, man, I got to talk to my wife about this. What's she gonna think? Because if Mandy's not on board, I'm. I'm. I'm not going to do something. Well, I get home that day and pretty nervous about talking to her. And she goes, I said, hey, I need to talk to you. And so we go out on the back porch, and I tell her a version of that story. And normally she's like, hey, Luke, buck up. Get back to work. But this time, I tell her that story, and she takes a deep breath, and she just goes, let me go get my journal. And that morning, she was listening to something, and I think it was a talk by a lady named Christy McLellan. And she goes and gets her journal, and she's listening to Christie's talk. And Christy said something like, sometimes you have to break your heart to heal your soul. And she goes, luke, I thought of you when she said that. And she goes, I think it's time, too. And so I was like, oh, no. Oh, no. And you actually got to do it happening. I know, because sometimes you rely on your wife to shake you out of your funk or something. And so that was it.

That was the beginning of the end at Ramsey.

That was the beginning. And so the next day, I talked to Jen, and I was like, hey, I think it's time. And then talked to Dave, and he was not a big fan, but that's okay. He understood. He was very, very, very cool throughout this whole thing. So that was the leaving Ramsey part, which I feel like is just the beginning of something.

Yeah, that's exactly right. But now, I mean, you're. You're leading other people through the same process that you yourself agonized over. You're leading them through this holy work framework. And I want to talk through each stage in a little bit more detail. So you've talked about the pool a couple times. Stage one, what does the pool feel like for people? Right. So you felt the pull to write about Bazillel and this holy work process. Like, what else does the. Does the pool look like for people?

It looks like restlessness. It looks like a feeling of stuck. It looks like unsettledness. And that is an uncomfortable place. And sometimes that unsettledness gets caused by someone else. Like sometimes you get fired or your spouse leaves you or something. But there is a restlessness there that is often hard to put your finger on, but that if you can healthily look at that restlessness and not try to solve it with addictions or escape of some sort. I think that restlessness is God. He is causing some things happen in your life to cause you to see him and seek him in a different way. And sometimes we do. We try to solve it ourselves. Like I tried to solve it myself when I was younger, in my early 20s, I always felt this restlessness, but I didn't go to God with it. I was like, I'm going to solve this. So I started a band, and the band is going to be what saves me. Or sometimes we, yeah, we do go to addictions or. Or escape patterns, but it feels like restlessness. It feels like unsettledness, but it also can be a stirring. My wife, she probably wouldn't describe the pull for her as a restlessness, although she might. But hers are often stirrings. Like when we started to homeschool our kids, she. She just felt like something's. Something's not right and what is it? And I think we want to start homeschooling. And I was like, oh, geez, we're not one of those people. But she felt a stirring towards it. So that's the pole. It's. It's uncomfortable, that's for sure.

In stage two is what you call the proof where you start to actually believe that this pull, this stirring inside of you to create something is from God, that He's the one doing the pulling. And I love that you point bazilla on Exodus 31 to make this case. How can be able to help us see that the pull we feel to create something is from God. We've talked around it, but I want you to be explicit.

Yeah, well, if we go back even farther from Bezalel, the fifth word of the Bible is created in the beginning. God created and Then it says, man was made in God's image. Well, when that is written in Genesis, the only thing we know about God's image at that point is that he was a creator. And so it is inborn before we are born. It's built into us because we are made in the image of the Creator to make something, to do something, to build something even. It's a family or it doesn't always have to be like a business or a painting or book or anything like that, but it is built inside of us. It's part of our character. And so that's the. I mean, that's the foundation. Genesis 1 and 2. So then you get farther down the line. And of course, people were filled with the Spirit before Bezalel, but Abraham, I'm sure, was filled with the Spirit. I'm sure Jacob, Joseph, all those folks. But the fact that these ancient books, we go back to Exodus, and the first person that it's mentioned as being filled with the Spirit is someone God wants to make something with and not just anything. It's the ark of the covenant, it's the tabernacle, it's. It's the tent of meeting, these three things and many more things. But those three were places that would hold God's presence on the earth. That's what he filled this guy with his own spirit to do. It wasn't just to make a house, although that is important. God was using this ordinary man to create something that would hold his hold. God's presence on the earth. And that being the first person the Bible mentions as being filled with the spirit, I think is incredibly important because he didn't do it before that. He did it with somebody he wanted to make something with. And so if we can start to ingest that and start to believe it and be like, okay, God, what do you want to create with me? And as he creates something with you, if that's a family, if that's a business, if that's a book, if that's a painting, if it's just as simple as starting to write something and share it on social media with five people or even lead your family in a devotional, those are the little pulls that he wants to create something new with you. It doesn't have to be like, I'm going to take over the world. It's nothing like that. It could be. I feel pulled to talk to my son about what he's struggling with. God wants to create something with you.

You know, I think the width is the really important part. Part the what is the canvas for the with.

Exactly. And the next part is. Is like, it's with you, but then it's through you, and then ultimately it's in you. Because as you follow this thing he wants to create with you, something changes inside of you. You are transformed. And that's the beautiful creation about this whole thing, is God wants to change you into what he had in mind, but before you were born. That's what he's really trying to do.

I can't remember if I mentioned this in a recent podcast episode. I'm going to pretend I didn't, but in Genesis 2, we see God forming Adam from the dust, right? And then God places Adam in the garden to work that dust and to turn it into something more. And there's this theologian I like who says the implication here is that as Adam works, he is working on himself. Like, that's the picture. That is exactly what you're talking about. All right, so fast forward to stage three, the practices of this holy work process that guide you through kind of this daily journey of creating something with God and man. You've talked about one of those practices that you are super passionate about, journaling and man, I know so many people who are seeking to do their work, work with God. They know journaling can be a primary practice to do so. But like me and Jordan, journaling is so amorphous, I have idea where to start. So if somebody's feeling the pull right now, Luke, and they've seen the proof that God is calling them to create that thing with him, what specific journaling practice would you recommend that they engage with?

Yeah, here's what I would do today. When you're listening to this get done with this podcast, you may be driving, you might be doing some kind of activity. When you get home, go find a quiet place, sit in silence for one minute and just be there. Listen to the sounds around you. Listen to the cars coming by. Listen to your kids hooting and hollering in the other room. Then get a journal and a pen and write for 10 minutes. Don't stop writing for 10 minutes about.

Anything that comes to your mind.

Anything.

Like it's not focused on a topic.

Nope, it's not. Don't worry about spelling. Don't worry about grammar. Just start writing. Do not lift your pen and do that for 10 minutes. Something happens at about four or five minutes, because those first few minutes are about the laundry or what are we going to eat, or I'm worried about a bill, or anything like that. But eventually you get through all that. And Dallas Willard calls those the epidermis level responses. Those are your skin layer responses. That's I'm upset with my wife, or, you know, I'm angry about this or. But eventually that stuff gets worked through. And if you don't stop writing, your brain goes into a state where you're free to go into stuff you didn't know was there. And you'll start writing about some things you actually really care about. And just do that for 10 minutes. That's the simplest thing to do today. And then at the end say, okay, God, what do you want to do with this? Now the reason I tell you to do that is you may or may not come any like, oh, and that's what I'm supposed to do with my life. But what that does is it starts to show you what journaling can do for you on a regular basis. If you get into that habit and you do it every day, eventually all the surface layer stuff that normally controls you, oh, I'm worried about bills, or I'm worried about my neighbor or I'm worried about whatever. Eventually you get to the point where you're through all that stuff. You're writing about something you really care about. Then after you've written that, just take a second and say, okay, God, what are you wanting to say to me today? Because oftentimes we sit down and we pray and we're like, okay, God, I pray for my kids and I pray for this and I pray that we get the bills paid or whatever it is. But oftentimes those are just the surface level things we need to let go of. To him, those are the cares of this world that he says to let go of. To me, he says, don't worry about those things. So the journaling side, when you just write non stop about all the cares of this world, actually get you through the first layer so that you can actually hear the whisper of God. And then you just sit there and listen. And sometimes you'll hear something, you'll be like, was that me? Was that God? This is a practice. That's why I call it the Practices. Slowly you will start to discern what is. Oh, that little thing I heard was actually a little different today and maybe I should pay attention. But building this habit into your life is an incredible important time. I started doing it in 2010 and have been doing it for these 15 years. And what it for me came out of desperation because I was just at a really low point and I didn't know what else to do. So I just started writing out my thoughts and feelings. But what happened was it was me seeking first the kingdom of God. And all these things will be added unto you, actually seeking him and what he wants for your life and asking what he wants to say to you each day. And you do that for a week, you do that for two weeks, you do that for six months, you do that for a couple of years. Your life will be absolutely rocked by what God is leading you towards.

And so good. Hey. So for the sake of time, I want to skip ahead a couple of stages. But I got to say this, man, everyone's offering lead magnets, blah, blah, that offer, like, very little value. The guide you give to this Holy Work framework is so good. I was so impressed by how detailed it was, how valuable it was. So we're going to skip stages for the war, Stage five, the wilderness. But if you guys are listening, like, I want to go deeper into Those, go to holywork.com and download this guide that Luke is offering. But stage six of the Holy Work process is the threshold, right?

That.

That moment where you burn the ships for you, this was making the decision to leave Ramsay, right? And in that guide I mentioned, you explained that the threshold is about, quote, making a decision and moving forward despite your fear, end quote. Not moving forward when you have no fear.

Right?

It's not waiting for a sense of peace from God before you move, as so many believers are accustomed to doing. So I'm curious for you, man. Where in scripture do you see believers? Do you see the people of God moving forward despite their fear and who was really an inspiration, encouragement to you as you did this yourself professionally?

Great question. Abraham, yes.

Hebrews 11, 8.

His son Isaac. Me and my dad were just talking about this. I have a son named Isaac as well. And Abraham must have been terrified to take his son on that journey up the mountain where God was saying, I want your son. He must have been terrified. So that's the one that always sticks out to me. And he went, and he had the intention of doing it. And then God provided. He provided the ram, and the ram was already up there or is on his way at the same time. And Abraham had no idea about that. And not only that story, but when God said go, I mean, literally, that's. That's basically the only instruction he gave Abraham at the beginning of this journey. Just go. And I'm sure Abraham was terrified to do that. And the threshold is about boiling water, for example. You know, you think of a threshold as crossing the front threshold of someone's house. And that's a nice, simple, welcoming step. But when you think of the threshold of boiling water, at some point, that water is really, really hot. And then it crosses a threshold and it starts boiling. Eventually, this pull, if it starts as a little. Little seed in your belly, and then it gets a little bigger and it's an. It's a nut, and then it turns to a golf ball, and then it turns to a. A melon. Eventually that thing gets so big, you have to do something about it, even if you're terrified. And that's what boiling water. Eventually that water is going to boil. You've crossed the threshold, and you have to make a decision. It's. It's where people get so sick and tired of being sick and tired that they're ready to make a change and they do something about it. And that's that threshold. And I was terrified to leave Ramsay, but at the same time, I had a lot of confirmations as well. And so the Abraham is in Isaac is what immediately comes to mind.

Yeah, that's a great example. Every time I hear believers talk about waiting for a sense of peace, I'm like, look at Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane.

Yeah, he's bleeding blood or sweating blood.

Sweating blood. But he did it because those were the good works God prepared in advance for him to do.

Right.

As a means of loving us. Whatever that pull is inside of you, that may be the good works God prepared for you to do as a means of loving your neighbor as yourself and glorifying him. Hey, so I hope you don't mind me asking this, and if you do, we can cut it.

Okay.

But, dude, right after you cross the threshold, your wife was diagnosed with cancer, like, months after.

We're still in it. So I. Yeah, I left Ramsey. I'm following this thing. And I took October and November off, just as a sabbatical kind of thing. And then November, December, November, I came down and saw you. And then December, we had Christmas. And then in January, my wife was diagnosed with stage 2A breast cancer.

Yeah. So here. Here's what I have to know, because I want to. I want to list in that moment, did you doubt whether it was a mistake to cross the threshold? Did you doubt whether it was God's will?

100%. Yeah.

Talk about how you've worked through that.

So at the time, I was like, well, okay, I'm just going to go get a stable job. We have to batten down the hatches. I need. We need to be stable. Blah, blah, Blah, blah, blah. But every time I would go down that path, it was out of major fear. And I would just feel like, that's not right, Luke. That's not right. And it had me go back and think about this framework that we're talking about. I know we jumped over the war here, but when you follow where God is pulling and you believe it's him, and you're doing the practices and actively seeking him, you will face war. The enemy wakes up when you do, and he is waiting with a machine gun, not just trying to get you to stub your toe. He wants to kill, steal, and destroy and cause you to doubt everything and cause you to doubt God and your faith. And so how I worked through it was. It was actually, Andy Andrews helped me a lot, whether he knows it or not. He gave me one of his books called the Seven Decisions. And one of those decisions was the Decided Heart. And I felt like God was calling me here, and I had a decided heart that we were going to follow even when the war and the waves are going crazy. And somehow, over the course of this last year and a half, as Mandy went through six months of chemo, seven weeks of radiation, double mastectomy, all this stuff, like, it's just crazy to. And that's just the beginning of it. I won't go into all the details of the insanity that has happened over this last year. I have more peace in our lives than I can explain. I cannot explain it. And it's not to say that everything is perfect. Like, we have fear. We are working in spite of our fear. But I know this is where God is pulling us, and we know that the war is real. And how we worked through it was. I would go to all the chemo appointments with her, and I would be with her as much as I could. And I'm starting to see, oh, no. God pulled me away at the right time so that I could be with her and in my own selfish desires. No, God, I got to build this business, and I got to start this holy work thing. And what do you want to do? And what do you want to do in those first six months? He was like, your most holy work is to be right here with this woman. And honestly, that's what. What got us through. And we're. We're still in it, man. She literally just finished her radiation last week. And I. You know, my hope is that part of this is, it's been so intense for us this last year and a half so that I can help people walk through their intense Things when they start to follow.

Yeah, man. I just want to encourage you here for a minute and any other listeners who have experienced something similar, Right. They cross the threshold, they follow what they thought was God's call, and now they're doubting it because they're facing trials. Listen, one thing God promises us over and over again is trials, is persecution, is a hard life. Your negative circumstances don't mean that's not God's call. In fact, I would argue more likely the opposite is true. And listen, I don't think anybody listening to this podcast would take a test and circle in yes to the question, do you believe in the prosperity gospel? But, oh, boy, I think we fall for this lie in some far more subtle ways. Right? For I've heard people who've made leaps, like you did when they left Ramsay. And when they did, they experienced nothing but blessing. And they say, oh, that's what happens when you follow God's call in your life. But if that's true, then the inverse must also be true. That when you follow what you perceive to be God's call and it doesn't work out, and your wife is diagnosed with cancer, oh, that must not be God's call. That's a lie. Our obedience and God's favor on this side of eternity are not always connected. See Job as case in point. See Paul as case in point. See Luke Lefever as case in point. Amen.

Amen. One of the most amazing things that helped us get through was one of Philip Yancey's books, Disappointment with God. And he was interviewing a man. I think his name was Douglas. And Douglas had been through it lots and lots of intense things. Car accidents. He got so many things. And there's this part where Yancy is saying, so tell me about your disappointment with God. And Douglass says, I've. I'm not disappointed with God. He says, we tend to think life should be fair because God is fair, but God is not life. And if I confuse God with the physical reality of life by expecting constant good health, for example, then I set myself up for a crashing disappointment. God's existence, even his love for me, does not depend on my good health. If we develop a relationship with God apart from our life circumstance, then we may be able to hang on when the physical reality breaks down and we can learn to trust God in spite of the unfairness of life. That really helped me through this last year.

That's so good, man. Hey. So stage seven of this process. What do you call this?

I used to call it the permission And I still might. And that's what you would read on, on the guide you were talking about earlier. But I am debating on calling it purpose. Because as you go through this pull and you follow the practices and you believe it's God and you fight through the war and you work through the wilderness and you cross these thresholds, you find your purpose. It's not always perfect. And you will start this whole process again. But I like to call it purpose, from your pull to your purpose. And often that means, hey, you finally have the permission to go after the thing you had in your heart, the desire that God put in your heart. But as you're transformed through this process, you do find, oh, this is where I feel God's hand on me, where I feel him guiding. I'm not doing this. And that's where your real purpose comes from. Because he had something in mind for you before you were born.

I know you know this, but some of our listeners don't. You were one of the first people to help me feel that sense of permission and purpose that, yes, this is the good work that God prepared in advance for me to do back in 2019. So I, I transitioned from CEO to chairman of the board at the tech startup I was running on March 1, 2019. And I think I'm like, March 3. I think March, I think March 1 was a Friday, man, it must have been March 4, March 5, something like that. The following Monday or Tuesday, I get an email from Luke LeFever, who I've never met before, just a long email book of an email about Bazayle and called to create and finding my first book in a Goodwill, which I didn't know if that was a compliment or an insult at the time, which now is a compliment. Pearl Jam records and called to create, lining the walls of goodwill.

Pearl Jam sold a lot of records, by the way.

A lot of records, A lot of records. But no, it was, it was a massive encouragement to me and just an encouragement to any of you listeners who have already made it to stage six or seven of this process. You've already found the work you believe God created you to do. Look to your left, look to your right and find people who need encouragement to lean into the pull the proof or some of the other stages of this process. Because man, like that was a game changing email for me, Luke. And I'm sure you've had people do that for you, right?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you think this will be a Jordan, Luke love fest here, but I mean, you've reciprocated that so much, and it was just. It was just me saying, hey, man, keep going, because I felt like God was doing something. I didn't know I was going to have even more of a part of it over the next couple of years. But, yeah, lots of people have done that for me. So the encouragement in someone breathing life into you from a place they've been before is amazing.

I love it. Hey, which books do you find yourself recommending or gifting most frequently to others? Like, if I open up your Amazon order history, what am I going to see popping up over and over again?

The War of Art. Steven Pressfield, you love the War of Art. I love the War of Art. It's just I'm a nine on the Enneagram, and that is troublesome. A lot of the time there's a quote about nines on the Enneagram that says they start off slow, but then they taper off. And so the War of Art is. No, I gotta get up. I'm gonna go work out. I'm gonna write. I'm gonna work. It's a constant decision. And the War of Art talks about the resistance that is constantly getting that. Another one is the Voice of the Heart by Chip Dodd. I'll recommend that as always. So as you're journaling, it helps you acknowledge what you're actually feeling. One I'm talking about all the time now, and I just talked about it already is Andy Andrews book the Seven Decisions. It's. It's helped me immensely. He just talked about more people fail at what they attempt because of an undecided heart than for any other reason. When you exhibit a decided heart and commit yourself to the fulfillment of that destiny you've chosen, your life will never be the same. It's just incredible. So those are three right now. I could keep going. Got a big list.

It's great, man. Hey, who would you want to hear on this podcast talking about how their faith shapes the work they do in the world?

I think I said last time I was on. I think I said Denzel Washington. You didn't make that happen yet, but, yeah, you did.

You did say Denzel. I forgot we still got the bat signal out for Denzel.

But I. I thought about this question the other day. You can cut out my searching here. I thought I wrote something. Oh, you know who it was? It was Chris Pratt.

That's a good answer.

Do you know anything about his story?

I don't know. A ton.

Yeah, so I don't know a lot of them either, but I Just have found some of the things he said about God and how Jesus loves you, and he set them on some very big public stages. I would love to just hear some of the deeper stuff about what's going on in that guy's life. Chris Pratt's one of mine.

I just think he'd be a fun. I think he's. I bet he's a good hang.

I bet he is, too. I bet he is, too. He'd be good.

We got some ins with Chris and Bono.

Can you get Bono?

Oh, man, we've never. We've never shot for Bono.

We got it.

We got to shoot for Bono. We should have done it when he was promoting this autobiography, which, by the way, have you read this?

I love it. It was the next book I was going to say something about. Really?

Mark Barrison did, like, a whole five minutes last time I was hanging with him on why I had to read it. I still haven't read it. Sorry, Mark.

Oh, I love it. So I have a little quote here from one. So he just. I mean, he's just so hard on his sleeve and he goes, why would I put everything at risk again? I think they were talking about Octung Baby album or something. And what's got into me? What gets into me? Why am I prepared to bet the house or at least the band on these intuitions, this instinct that if we step into the darkness as artists, we will depend more on the light, that somehow, somehow we'll find an open window. Because there is no manifest destiny. There is no guarantee that this will work out. And, I mean, that's the. That's the pull, that's the creativity. And I believe God has a plan, but it doesn't mean that million dollar checks are going to come and make your life all easy. Yeah, I loved that book.

Dang. Okay, great. I gotta. This would be. This is a good Sabbath read. I love reading stuff like that.

Yeah, me too.

All right, Luke, you're talking to this global audience of mere Christians, very diverse, vocationally. Some of them would describe themselves as creatives like you. Some of them would not. What's one thing from our conversation, or maybe something we didn't say that you want to reiterate? Before we sign off, I want you.

To imagine yourself standing in New York City, Times Square. If you're listening to this, you're in the middle of Times Square. It's busy. It's everywhere. Cars, lights, noises. And you look down and you have a little rope tied around your waist, and you see the rope go off. Into the streets and around the corners of the building. Now, I want you to imagine God standing on the coast of California looking out at the most amazing ocean. And he's got a little smile on his face and he looks down at his calloused hands because he's been pulling this rope for a long time. And he has somebody in mind, he has you in mind. And he just gives it a little nudge. And you all the way over in New York City feel a little nudge on that rope that's tied around your waist. And to follow this rope, yeah, you're going to have to go through a lot of work and war and wilderness just to get out of New York City. And then you'll have to go through dark nights in Nebraska and the long plains of Colorado without even knowing where you're ultimately going. But know this. He is on the other side. He has this plan for you to be with him, looking out at this amazing ocean and he's slowly pulling you there.

Dang. It's a fire way to end, buddy. I gotta commend you for the exceptional work you do every day for the glory of God and the good of others, for not just for following the pool man and leaning into and sharing. Not just, not just learning about this, but sharing what you've learned about this process. You are a true artist because you are sharing these learnings with the world in this super clear and super helpful holy work framework that I just love. By the way. I think I told you this. I was hanging out with a bunch of people recently and they were all, this was right before the new year. And they were like, man, I want to get good at journaling. And I knew that you were like doing this journaling course. And so I text you, I was like, hey, I've got seven people who want to do this right now. And you were like, too bad they're not welcome. But you're doing this again, right? You're doing this journaling course. Tell us about this.

We're doing holy work. February journaling course. It's going to start on February 20th. It will be for six weeks. We will meet on Zoom every Tuesday morning from 6:30 to 7:30am Central Time. And what we're going to do is we're going to work through six weeks of building this life changing habit into your life. And so each of the weeks build on each other. And then every other day of the week, you will do it on your own. And I'll send out a prompt for you that just gives you some things to think about. But you'll be doing the practice that we learn in the group class together. So February 20th it starts. You can sign up@holywork.com the details will be there and it's going to be incredible every time we do it. It's so unexpectedly powerful. And it's not just me talking the whole time. It's an experiential workshop that you are doing this and building the habit into your life. And like I said earlier, what happens is we know the benefits of journaling. We know the benefits of it. You can go to Huberman and hear a lot of the benefits. But what happens is we don't set aside the time to do it. And what this course does is it gives you a dedicated hour where I'm guiding you and you don't have any distractions. And when people are in that headspace and they're focused on what God wants to do in their lives, amazing things happen. And so I encourage you to come. It's 199 normally, but for podcast people that are listening to this, if, if you type in the code 50 off, that'll give you 50 bucks off this thing and I would just love to see you there.

That's awesome.

I love it.

Luke, brother, I appreciate you. Thanks for hanging with us today.

Absolutely, man. Such a pleasure. Love you dude.

There are few people who are more genuine, more thoughtful than Luc Lefever. I love that guy. I genuinely love everything he's doing. And no, I'm not getting an affiliate fee on the course, but I have sent tons of friends to this course who are super excited to walk through it with Luke. Hey, thank you so much for tuning in to the Mere Christians podcast. I'll see you next week. Hey friends, this is your last chance to claim all the amazing pre order bonuses for five mere Christians before they go away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9. I've never offered this many pre order bonuses on a book before, so when you fill out the form form@5merechristians.com Number one, you're going to be entered to win an incredible trip for you and a friend to tour CS Lewis's favorite spots in Oxford, explore Olay, Kirk Christensen's former stomping grounds at Lego headquarters in Denmark and much more. Number two, you'll be invited to join my first ever interactive reading, culminating in a zoom call with me and my co author on this book, Kaylee. Number three, you're going to be getting a money back guarantee to try the book risk free and number four. You'll also get access to a free course I'm not selling anywhere called how to write a book 10x faster and better with an Affordable co Author. You can claim all these bonuses in just two simple steps. Step 1 Pre order 5 mirror Christians in any format you want. It can be hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And you can order it from wherever. It doesn't matter to me. Step 2 Go to 5Mere Christians.com and fill out the form of that page. And that's it. I'll send you all those bonuses. You'll be entered into the sweepstakes with one simple form submission. But hey, don't wait all of these off. All of these offers, all these bonuses. They're going away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9th. So visit 5Mere Christians.com right now to claim your bonuses.