Maina Mwaura (Journalist)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back guarantee on this book. I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me, right. I know this is a very different biography. What is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right? So that's the first reason this is a risk and I'm gonna de risk this book for you. Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended. End quote. But here's the thing. In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5meerchristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all the pre order bonuses listed on 5merechristians.com and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5merechristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who are not pastors or religious professionals, but who work as postal workers, ballet Dancers and pharmacy techs. That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to my friend Mina Mora. He is a world class journalist who has interviewed almost a thousand people, including two US Presidents, three vice presidents, and many, many, many other world leaders. Mina and I recently sat down to talk about how Jesus, like mentors, show you what life can be like. We talked about what Mina learned about discerning calling from CBS's James Brown in this crazy story about how Mida's career as a journalist started. And we talked about why you should serve at the very worst times of life and career, my friend. I think you're going to love this conversation with Mina Ora. Mina Mora. Welcome to the Mere Christians podcast, buddy.

Man, how did I make this one, Jordan? You know, you get invited to a special party and you're like, how did I get here?

How did I get in this room?

Kind of weird being on the opposite side of this though.

So this is like the third or fourth time we've connected live. And every time we just like make loads of really, really great small talk catching up to where we kind of just like forget about the agenda. So we like started recording this like seven minutes late because I'm like, I just want to talk to my buddy Mina because you got stories for days. Speaking of, you've interviewed nearly a thousand people, some presidents, some vice presidents, world leaders. Who are you most starstruck by?

That's a good question. Jordan, man, thanks for like stopping me when I first got on the show here, buddy. You know, Jordan, to be honest with you, the person that still rings one of the top two or three, and there's this pastor here in the Atlanta area who was dying of cancer, ended up actually dying of cancer, in fact. And I got to spend time with him 10 days before he passed away. And it hit me at the end of the day, Jordan, when all this is said and done, it's really going to come down to your family and your close friends. And what, what he decided to do, it was really kind of interesting, is that he said, you know what, I want to see as many people as I can. Even though the doctor told him the more people that you see, it's going to quicken your death. But he made the decision that he wanted to be around people even in death. And it was just kind of, it still ranks as my number one just because it just taught me a lot about life. It was early on when I was starting this and so it was one of those deals where I Think God planted him right in my space to just remind me, you know, it's not about whatever we think it is when it comes to the influential people, Jordan, if that makes sense.

I love that that's your answer to the starstruck question, by the way. It shows, like, a remarkable humility in how much you understand the upside down nature of the kingdom. By the way, can you. Who this guy's name?

What's weird? I forgot his name. I'm talking to you. Joel Hunter was the guy who connected me to him, and I am, like, going blank.

I love that. You can't. This. This makes it even better that you can't remember his name. That's so good.

It was like, one of those kind of guys, oh, my gosh. I know I will wake up and go, that's his name. But he led a church here in the Atlanta area called Grace. And so it was Grace Snellville. And I. If I turn my phone off during part time together, if I had my phone on, I would be able to look it up. Grace. Name the church. Still name the church. And he left such a legacy to that church where it's still thriving and going and bigger than ever. Jordan.

That's good. What off camera moment with an interviewee are you least likely to forget?

Oh, man, I remember interviewing this one influential person, Jordan. And there have been 800 and something. Jordan. Right now, I don't know the exact number, man, but I'll never forget this, Jordan. I started off, you know, you start small talk. You want to be kind, you want to be great, all these kind of funny things. And he was a columnist, he was an op Ed guy. And I said, man, I love your work most of the time, just to kind of make us, you know. Well, that did not go very well, George, because he then responded back and said, really? I hate those kind of responses. And he wasn't joking, Jordan. So it was kind of one of those things where I was like, okay. And it just. It was. I mean, Jordan, it just started off bad, dude. Where I had to literally go, do we need to do this, like, another time? Like, I just.

That's amazing. Just disaster.

A disaster, a disaster, disaster. And so now I catch myself when I'm talking to people going, yeah, your work's right all the time.

That's amazing. I love all your work. That's what you told me. And now I don't. Now I don't treat it as genuine. Yeah, no, yeah.

I love all your work. I love all your work.

Last fun opener. Who out of everyone you've interviewed, presidents, influencers, who would be the most fun to grab a beer with if you weren't such a good Southern Baptist?

Oh, my gosh. You're a laugh at this one. I don't almost want to tell the name because people may go, oh, my gosh, not him. Not him. I give you two people. I give you two. Number one is Clarence Thomas. Is number one.

Wow.

Number one, like a good hang. Clarence Thomas, hands down. Like, he could be Uncle Clarence was that. And then number two is Max Lucado.

I've heard this about Max.

He is amazing dude. Like, he's my number one person I've interviewed the most, by the way.

Wow.

Just amazing. Amazing guy has helped me out in so many ways that he probably should not have. I love.

That's a really good answer. That was not what I was expecting. I like Clarence Thomas and Max Lucada. There you go.

Hands down.

We're going to be drinking pints of Guinness on the New Earth together with Minamora. I love it. Hey, man. So for most of your career, you are not a mere Christian, as I define that term. You spent the first 21 years of your career as a pastor. What's the story of how you went from pastor to journalist? I've heard the long version of the story. What's. What's the short version of that story that you could share with our listeners?

Yeah, Jordan, I loved being the ministry, and I'm thankful that I got to do the first 21 years in doing it. I do think, though, that I was fearful of jumping into the role I'm in now, all because I thought that couldn't do it. Jordan. If I could do it all over again, it would have been one of those things that, although I deeply enjoyed doing youth ministry, it was a lot of fun. But I probably would have done this one first. But the fear stopped me. I mean, it really stopped me in my tracks big time. But it wasn't until, you know, I know there have been people out there who probably gone through this, too. It wasn't until I got fired from a church. I was the wrong fit. And honestly, honestly, I was the wrong fit, looking back at it. But I was talking to a buddy of mine named Sam. And Sam loves your show, by the way. Loves your podcast.

Hey, Sam.

And Sam said. I was talking to Sam and I said I could never do journalism because I can't write. And I stutter. And Sam looked at me and said, you know, I've known you for over a decade at that Time. Fifteen years, in fact. And he said, I've never heard you stutter before. And it caught me, Jordan, that I was putting these limitations on my life that just weren't there. And I would tell anyone, whatever the limitation that you think is out there, take the jump anyway. But I let fear stop me in doing journalism.

Yeah, there's. Man, you're hitting on something. One of my favorite themes when it comes to the topic of discerning calling is Christians shouldn't let other Christians discern calling alone.

Right.

Like, it takes other voices in your life saying that's a lie, that you stutter. I've never heard you do this or speaking words of life. And you have, like, hey, man, like, no, I think you could be great at journalism. By the way, am I remembering this part of your story, that James Brown of NFL CBS fame was one of those people who spoke those words into you?

Oh, my gosh, James Brown. If I can take a minute here, talk about him, Jordan, he was influential in my life.

Like at the very beginning of your career as a journalist. Right.

Remember? I mean, Jordan, I literally walk out of this church experience just wounded. I really thought, Jordan, as I've never told you about this before, but I really thought, Jordan, that my career was over. I can remember telling my wife, I don't know what I'm going to do next. And I was very fearful of that because one thing has ended that you didn't want to end. But it did end. And I thought, this career is over. I really did, man. I thought, I'm never going to work again. And it wasn't because I did anything immoral or anything, Jordan. I just thought I was done. And I happened to do a service project. I'll tell everyone, serve in your worst time. Because I think God really speaks in those seasons. And I served at this event. And literally the guy that I was like, serving that day said to me, hey, man, I've so enjoyed this experience with you. He goes, anything that you need or want, can you just let me know? And I made the flippant remark where I said, I've always wanted to meet the CBS sports commentator James Brown. And he looks at me and he goes, I can make that happen.

Stop.

And I thought he was joking. Don't laugh at this. This was all going on, Jordan, in the Dallas Cowboys stadium, like taking a stadium tour. And so it was all going on.

This is where you're serving? You're serving in the stadium?

Well, yeah, this is where it gets bizarre. So I'm helping this Event out. And this person I was serving, Fred Luder is the guy's name. I just thought randomly what it would be like to take him on a tour of the Dallas Cowboys Stadium. That was my, like, deal. And he said, okay, we can do that. We only have 30 minutes, man, to do this. And so we took that tour. At the end when the Dallas Cowboys Stadium locker room, there he goes, whatever you need want, just let me know, basically. And I go, james Brown. By that Friday, that was like a Monday Tuesday. But that Friday, I was on the phone with James Brown. And then after that Friday, it was, hey, can you come follow me for three months. And it was during those three months that I would say James Brown just confirmed what I didn't know, that I even had.

Just his gift as a journalist.

Yeah, Jordan. I didn't think I had it.

But it took another believer being like, hey, you got it. You got what it takes.

It really did. And I would tell folks who are just out there, if you know someone who's wandering through their calling and if God's calling you to confirm that calling, don't hesitate to not do that. Do that.

That's good. Speaking from the guy who 800 or so interviews later can point back to a couple of people, a couple of believers, including James Brown. That's so great. Speaking these words of life. Hey, go. Go back to when you got fired.

Okay, let's sit there.

Let's sit with that for a second. We talk so much of this podcast, as you know, about the God given goodness of our work. But the risk, of course, is that we turn that good thing into an ultimate thing. We turn it into an idol. And I've heard a lot of stories from a lot of people when they lost a job where they're like, man, I didn't realize how great an idol my work had become. Was that you?

That was me. And how I knew it was an idol because I ended up getting fired, like, during that, like the week before Father's Day. And I can remember I'd made it such an idol that I remember thinking, and how am I going to feed my family? How am I going to do this? And what will, you know, people think that I'm at home now. And I had to come to find out that nobody was even thinking about that, Jordan, other than me.

We're so self absorbed. But that's exactly what I would have been thinking.

Yeah, Jordan, they could have cared less. In fact. And I had to realize, Jordan, that I'd let this at that time, that Season, become an idol. And anything that's an Idol I do believe is a problem, and it had become one. So I can remember having to walk through all of that. And for a whole month, I would call it the Jonah experience to a certain degree, because I felt. I felt like I was left, like, out there by myself, which, of course, we're never alone, but it felt like it. It really did. And it wasn't until, Jordan, that July of that year, that I really felt like, through a friend, go, hey, you know what, Mina? Have you thought about what I'm doing now? And that's when it started to turn around. But God would. I mean, the idle deal would come up a number of times, which I would say probably has led me to believe. What I believe now is to literally go, this is what I do. But it's not who I am.

Who are you?

Who I am is a child of God. I am the husband of a wonderful woman named Tiffany, and I get the privilege of being Zion's dad. That's who I am.

And what you do is an expression of that belovedness as a child of God.

It really is. And Jordan, one day what I'm doing for this season is going to come to an end. And so celebrate the season when it comes to an end. But don't idolize it, though, hey?

So clearly the world would look at the work you did as a pastor and describe it as quote, unquote, ministry. But I know you view the work you do today as a journalist, as ministry as well. I'd love for our listeners to hear you explain why. Why does the work of a journalist matter to God, man?

It matters a lot, especially in this day and age. Jordan, if you had told me seven years ago that he. You would be in the middle of a very transformative time in life in our culture right now where we need good storytellers, man, we really do need people who are going to tell stories truthfully.

You're living at a time when truth is eroding everywhere around us. Well, truth isn't, but the belief that there is truth.

It really is, Jordan. And the main line is, this is why I love Luke, because Luke was such an eyewitness to things that were going around them. And I think we need people who are. Who are definitely an eyewitness, but they're telling truth about what they're seeing, not what they think they're seeing, what they are truly seeing. And that, to me, is why I'm in this. And I would say another reason why I'm in this also is because there aren't a lot of. Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of believers in this for a lot of host of reasons. But it's one of those things where it's rare that when I'm talking to someone, whether it is a U.S. senator's chief of staff or whether it is the president's team, that someone does not say, okay, so you were a pastor first and now you're a journalist. When they do go, how do those things go together? And I think they go together beautifully.

Yeah. Why aren't there more Christians working as journalists? To quote you to you, are there particular temptations that are unique to this calling that are. Yeah. Talk more about that.

Yeah. Part of it is the long hours, Jordan, to be fair, that it is ongoing nonstop 24 7. And so it's one of those things where if you're going to have a balanced family life, Jordan, I tell people this may be a hard calling to do this in. I mean, just because it's just. It's just. However, though, I do think that's where you put the idol away and you go, okay, this is the calling that God's called for me to do. But I'm not going to idolize it.

Though, and not sacrifice the callings I.

Have at home and not sacrifice my family. And it's interesting, the people who've done that, Jordan, who are not idolizing it, nor are they sacrificing what God's called them to be and to do, do very well in this calling. I mean, there are so many great. I mean, James Brown would be one of those who, if you speak to him, he will tell you, hey, this is what I do. It's not who I am. And he will tell you, God's called me to minister in this area. And so that's why it's hard to answer your question.

Yeah, I get that. Yeah. You know, it's interesting, through God's common grace, a Christian journalist and a non Christian journalist are going to approach their vocation in a lot of similar ways. Right. But there should be some things that are distinct about your approach to journalism because of your apprenticeship to Christ. You know, one of those is not sacrificing your callings at home. What are some other ways that you think your work is distinct because of your faith?

Yeah, I'd say, number one, realizing that. That it is a calling. And I think. I think that should be in anything that God's called us to do. Obviously, Jordan, but it is a calling. Number two, that you're called to be an eyewitness. Eyewitness. And to be a truth teller of a story. Not to make up something, but to tell the truth to what you're seeing.

To not insert your agenda is what you're saying.

To not insert your agenda. At the same time, it's one of those deals where you have to realize that God's placed you in this privileged place to be in time and in history, to be his light. And so when you are doing that, man, I think you'll be surprised on what you get.

Can you think of an example where you're reporting on a story and what you want to be true is clearly not true? Right. And how you kind of reported through.

That, oh my gosh, there have been a couple of political figures. I'll leave it at that, Jordan. Where I thought one thing, it was the other. And what you have to do is you have to look into God's calling. I want to be very clear about that. But you also have to, have to also realize that the person who you're reporting on or who you're interviewing, God loves them just as much as he loves you. And they have a soul too. And I think sometimes in our culture we can kind of justify an ends to the. To the means. That makes sense, man. And man, God's called me to do this at the end of it. And it's one of those things. It's one of those things where you cannot act unjustly to someone when you realize that God loves them just as much as he loves you. And that's how you work through it, is that God loves them and you also work through it. For me, is this also Jordan, that? And you know what I mean, say this is that when, when you and I are gone, our family is going to have a track record, a literal track record, Jordan, of what we said, what we did, Jordan, what we even looked at. And so that keeps me in check too, in that I know that I have a daughter who's going to come back. She's going to be the only one going to come back and look at some of this stuff.

But when you say, you say, okay, you're talking to the source. You want to believe one thing, but that's not the truth. But that they're a child of God too. It doesn't mean you don't tell the truth, right?

Correct.

Yeah. Even if the truth is ugly.

Even the truth is ugly. And there have been a couple stories where I'm working on one now. In fact, Jordan, we're talking, not working on as we're talking about work on one. Jordan. Where honestly, man, it's, it's a, it's a tough one. Just because I'm attached to it in a lot of ways. I've of just how I grew up. My mom still attends this certain denomination. Jordan. And so, and there's some affiliation definitely with friends who are part of it. Jordan. But it's one of those things where you have to put that to the side and go, and they are God's children. And what God wants more, you know, what God wants and loves is when we tell truth to one another. So because they are God's child and because they are his, I need to tell the truth on this.

Better is open rebuke than hidden love.

You got that right. I mean, so it's one of those things where I have to say to myself, and you and I both have this same friend, Mark Batterson. So before I'm going to say just about every, I don't want to say every, just about every before my hands touch the keyboard. I do see it as a worship instrument. And because it is that, it helps me to check myself to go, are you telling the truth through this worship instrument?

Because if not, that's not worship.

It's not worship.

If not, I love Rick Warren's definition. I disagree with Rick Warren on a lot of things, but I really love his definition of worship as anything that brings pleasure to God, I guess. So concrete, right? Like we know God's commands and so if work's going to be worship, yeah, it's gotta be perfectly truthful. Right. It's gotta be done with pure motives. You mentioned the ends justifying the means. I think we're seeing this all over the place in culture and church. Where are you tempted as a journalist to allow the ends to justify the means?

Oh, man. One of the things that I have to realize is, is that as a journalist you've been called to be set apart. And so it's one of those things where you're called to be set apart as we are to be as Christ followers. When you're called to be set apart, you can't all of a sudden become a part of a story because you like someone. Jordan. And so I'm a people person for the most part. I got into ministry because I love people. But at the same time I have to realize that when I'm interviewing someone or I'm doing a story like on someone, that I have to realize I've been called to be set Apart to be an eyewitness to what's going on, not to the friend out there who I want to make look good. Jordan, that makes sense, man.

Yeah. You're not. You're not writing puff pieces. You're trying to tell truth.

Yes, you're trying to tell truth. It's one of those things where you want to be clear that, yes, I can ask someone questions at the same time, be set apart from the questions that I'm supposed to be asking to get the truth.

What do you mean by that? Cause that I actually think that principle is really relevant to journalists, but also just managers and anybody working to get to the bottom of something within an organization. What do you mean by that?

Yeah, you know, Jordan, I would love to say that I stole this, that I made this on my own, but I really did not. My friends say on once again, before, before I stepped in to this, I was really worried about, am I forsaking my calling of being a pastor? I was very worried about that, Jordan. In fact, and my buddy Sam said, you know what, Maida, when you step into the room with someone who you're interviewing, why don't you think of it as you're their pastor for that moment, and if you can do that, then you may be a pretty good journalist. And what he was meaning about all that, Jordan, is this. As a pastor, there were lots of times, Jordan, people would come into my office and they would need advice, Jordan. They would need me to, you know, walk them through certain things. What I did not do was not tell them the truth because they were my friend. I still told them the truth and was set apart. Although, Jordan, that I was their pastor. And so it's one of those things where I think. I think you're right, is that we have to realize whether we're leading someone, Jordan, or that we're managing someone or whether we're interviewing someone, that we've been called to be set apart. And that does. And I think it actually my own personal opinion here, when we are called to be set apart, we see someone the way Christ sees them. Because when we are a part of something, it's really hard, Jordan, to speak truth when, man, I'm in it with them and we're doing all these things together, Jordan, if that makes sense, man. Does not mean that you're not doing life with them, Jordan. It does mean, though, that when you're leading someone, you can lead them in truth.

So I love this beyond leading them in truth. Talk to anyone who's leading anyone, leading them in an interview, leading them on a team. What practical advice would you give to them for how to see the people they lead as Christ sees the people they lead?

Man. You know, Jordan, we're living in a day and age. That's a great question, by the way. We're living in a day and age, Jordan, where. Where how we can identify with someone is how we tend to lead them, Jordan. And so if I can identify with you, and I'm not saying that we should not identify with people, Jordan, then we're going to give them more privileges than we do someone that we cannot identify with. And that is somewhat of a problem, Jordan. And I'm not saying we can't identify with people because as people, obviously, but we have to set that apart and leading them. Well, Jordan, because it's one of those things where we're all fallen. So because we're all fallen, dude, it can become quite difficult from time to time to set aside, man, I like this person over this person, Jordan. And with Christ's love, we have to be very careful to set aside sometimes our likes and our dislikes because at the end of the day, we have been called to lead like Jesus leads. And because Jesus sometimes has to discipline me, it doesn't mean that he doesn't love and like me, but sometimes he has to literally say, because I do love and I do like you, man, I've also got to discipline you as well. And so he has to set aside even that sometimes for what we think that definition is quote unquote, man.

I'm thinking about James 2. Believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism. So one of the ways we lead them is in truth. But also, number two, yeah, just a lack of favoritism and being able to forcing ourselves to identify with all of the image bearers that come across our path at work. Right? How do you do that for somebody that you don't naturally identify with? For somebody who doesn't share your political views or religious views or race or gender, how do you identify with that person? The way that Christ might?

Man, this may sound like weird, but it's one of those things where I think we see Christ doing it throughout Scripture, in fact, and that is by being curious. It's one of those things where the more curious I am about someone, it never fails. The more curious I am about someone, I want to know about them. It never fails that I don't start to really come around to where they're at. Does not mean, by the way, that I agree with Them, it just means I see them the way Christ sees them. And so I think when we are curious and we're asking questions, it's the best place to be because oftentimes we can assume about someone and our assumptions can be wrong. Very, very wrong, Jordan. And so when you're asking questions though, you overcome your assumption.

Yeah. It reminds me of the story that Batterson told in. Please, sorry, thanks. A book I know you and I both really enjoyed. He's talking about Jenny Jerome, Winston Churchill's mother, who once dined with two of Britain's prime ministers on back to back evenings. And when asked for impression of each, she said of William Gladstone. When I left the dining room after sitting next to Gladstone, I thought he was the cleverest man in England. And after dining with Benjamin Disraeli, I left, quote, I left feeling like I was the cleverest woman. It's like so good. But like, I think about that a lot when I meet new people, especially people I don't agree with on stuff. Like I want them to think they're the most interesting person because I want to be curious about them, I want to identify with them, I want to get to know them. Because if I don't know them, it's going to be hard to love them the way that Christ calls me to love them. Right.

Very hard, Jordan. Very, very hard.

Hey, we talked about your mentor, one of your many mentors, James Brown. You've thought a lot about mentorship. You actually just wrote a book about this guy I had never heard of before named Howard Hendricks, who is a mentor to Tony Evans and Jenny Allen, Andy Stanley, a bunch of other people. How do you think, what does mentorship look like in a distinctly God honored way? Maybe you can even think of an example from scripture of somebody who is an exceptional mentor to others.

I think it's amazing, Jordan. It's one of those things. Of course I've, I've loved researching this for. I spent three years on this topic, Jordan, like eight breath, lived it all, that kind of stuff. So you get me talking about this. I gotta be careful. I think mentorship shows you what life could be like.

Ooh, ooh, say more. Yeah, go deeper there. Yeah.

I think Jesus obviously is our savior and Lord, but he's also our mentor as well.

Yeah, come on, come on, preach.

And that he shows us what heaven is going to be like and what life can be like in this life. And so it's one of those things where a good mentor should show you what could happen. And I think when that takes place. I think there's a God connection there that cannot be stomped out.

What do you mean by that?

Well, I mean, I'll give you a prime example, this one. I'll be quick here, Jordan. But there is this guy, his name is in my book as well, Brunell Hunter. I met him in the fifth grade, Jordan. I was a mess, complete mess. Coming from a single parent household. My mom was at her wits end, to be fair, and so we got to know him through a friend of a friend. So it wasn't even a direct line, to be fair. He said, hey, bring him on over. It was that bad, Jordan. So I went over. I'm in the fifth grade, Jordan. You know, I don't know much. And so I literally get out of the car and he is cutting his grass, but his kids were like playing in the background, and I could see two cars, and his wife was in the house making dinner, in fact. And I remember looking at him, and I didn't know these words precisely, but I remember looking at him going, I want that. Like, I didn't know what that was, Jordan. I remember going, I want that. And what Brunel Hunter did for almost 40 years in my life has shown me what that still is and what that is still to come. Even man, even as an adult man, and he's almost 70 something now, or over 70 years old now, he is still showing me that. What that is.

Yeah, that's mentorship. Given a picture of what life could look like. But man, when defined that way, mentorship can also be a really. Could be a heck of an evangelism tool.

Yes.

It puts the pressure off of mentorship. It's like, hey, just come alongside me. Do life with me. I hate that term. I don't know why I just said that. I hate do life together with a passion. Oh, gosh, let's. Let's eradicate this from the church's lexicon. No, but like, hey, just come over for dinner with my family and I co worker, right? Like, just show them a vision of what life can look like in the kingdom of God that'll preach.

It's so simplistic, Jordan. It's so simplistic in the sense of that it's not you doing the work, it's allowing God to do the work.

Yeah, it's good. All right. Hey, man, three questions. As you know, we land every plane with here on the Mere Christians podcast. What books are you giving away like candy right now?

The book I'm giving away right now. This may surpass surprise you, there are two Jordan, real quick, David Brooks, how to See People, and number two, the Coupon mom book. I've gotten to know her. Stephanie Nelson is her name. And I love the book, I really do. And it's not about couponing. I do because she really talks about how she started the Coupon Mom. And so it's one of those deals where Oprah has been on her, not on her show. She was on her show, in fact, and a whole host of others. But she really walks through how she only had $38 to start this company and what she did with that $38 and her whole concept of a God story is amazing.

Is she a believer?

She's a believer.

Oh, fascinating.

I love her book.

That's such a great answer. Hey, by the way, I forgot to tell you this before we started recording, I'll tell you here publicly. You interviewed recently the author of a book I finished yesterday and is easily in my top five books of this year, Jonathan Ick. Did you read his biography on Dr. King?

I did. Like literally, I'm probably still tired because I stayed up many of nights. Read that book, dude. Such a thick book.

It's a thick book.

It's not for the faint of heart. It is one of those books where there were a couple of nights where it's like two o' clock in the morning and I can't put it down.

I have a love hate relationship with biographies, Right. Number one, most biographies are way too freaking long. I care about Winston Churchill. I do not care enough about Winston Churchill to read 2,000 pages on Winston Churchill. Right. And this Dr. King one was long. It was like 800 pages. But I was like, all right, Dr. King, this is worth the time. But what I got right, which a lot of biographies don't, is I really couldn't put down. I thought it was so well done.

I couldn't put down. He takes you into places that you go, how did we land here? Oh, I don't want to give away the book, but amazing person too.

You know, everybody. So I'm really eager to hear your answer to this. Who do you want to hear on the podcast talking about how their faith shapes the work they do in the world?

You know what? I'm going to go back to David Brooks.

That's a great answer.

I mean, I just, he's someone who came to know Christ Midlife, in fact, over actually told him this where she said, I've never seen a person in her career that had been so much that changed so much in their midlife. She knew him previously by that book has changed my life in this sense. To not see people who serve me as white noise, but to see them as people.

Which book? The newest one, how to Know a Person.

How to Know a Person. Like it has allowed me that when someone is serving me, whether it's in the grocery store or in a restaurant that they have a name tag on to call them by name.

It's really good. I love it. All right, Mina, you're talking to this global audience of mere Christians, some of them journalists, a lot of them entrepreneurs and baristas and mechanics. What's one thing you want to tell them before we sign off?

Ah, this is a hard one, Jordan. I knew it was coming by the way. You know what? I would tell them to just take the step and just whatever it is that they feel like there could be a calling to. And I'm going to say this to them, Jordan, whatever they think the fear is of what they can't do, that's more than likely it. Man, like I never thought I could write a book, Jordan, for example, and you know, I'm adhd, special, learning disability, all of those things. So if you had told me I'd be an author of a book, Jordan, I would have laughed at you. But be open to God sized surprises. In fact, pray for them, in fact, because when we're doing that, we're allowing the Holy Spirit to lead us in directions that we never thought that we could on our own.

Brother, I love you so much. I want to commend you for the exceptional work you do for the glory of God and the good of others. Band for just man, you dropped so many truth bombs on this episode. Just hashtag truth bomb all over the place, right? Serving in your worst times. Times. How to see the people you work with as crises. Them. How to identify with others. How to mentor. Well man, you've just given us so much wisdom to lean into the fear and the scary things God might be calling us to do. Hey friends, if you want to learn more about Mina and his story and his work, you could check him out@minas speaks.com that's M A I N A speaks.com and hey, what's the name of this book? I know we didn't really talk about the book, but pitch the book real quick that you just wrote on Howard Hendricks. What's the title? What are readers going to take away from it?

It is the influential mentor. What I love about the book process for this me on this one was I got to interview 100 plus of Howard Hendricks mentees.

And who was this guy? He was a seminary professor.

He was seminary professor in Dallas, Texas. So. But if you have gone to Chick Fil A, if you have listened to family life today, if you've heard of Andy Stanley, Tony Evans, Crawford Laritz, Jenny Allen, if you're any of those people, Howard was behind that. And so what I learned from Howard's life was speak into people's lives where you're at. And oftentimes we think I got to be somewhere else to do that. And what I Learned from these 100 plus people who I interviewed about him was that they all thought they had a one on one relationship with him and that he was able to mentor people from the left and the right. So it's one of those things where if you don't like someone when you're reading the book. Hold on. You're all like somebody before you end the book. Because he mentored across the division lines. Yeah.

Did you ever read Trillion Dollar Coach?

No.

Bill Campbell. So it sounds like a really similar book. I'm really interested to read this. Howard Hendricks 1. But trillion dollar Coach is one of the books I recommend the most for business leaders. If you're managing any size team. It's about this guy named Bill Campbell who was a college football coach that Steve Jobs convinced to move to Silicon Valley to be the first VP of marketing at Apple. And over time, he became like the executive coach to every blue chip CEO in Silicon Valley. He was Jobs as an executive coach at one point. Sergey Brandon, Larry Page of Google, Sheryl Sandberg, Zuckerberg, everybody. But he was just this quiet mentor behind the scenes that nobody's ever heard of. But they had this massive influence at Silicon Valley the way that Howard Hendricks has in modern evangelicalism.

I have got to take a look at. Take a look at that book. Thank you.

Check it out. I'll send you a copy. Mina, your friend. Thank you for hanging out with us today, brother.

Oh, this was fun. You know, I've heard all these podcast episodes before, so part of me is like, I can't believe I made it on number one. And number two, how'd I make this song? So I appreciate it. This is fun and thank you.

I hope you guys enjoyed that episode as much as I did. Hey, we're releasing this on December 20th, five days before Christmas. Take some time over the next few days to rest with this truth. God is with us. He is with you. And not just on that first Christmas day. He is with you right now through the power of the Holy Spirit. And so there's no such thing as quote unquote secular work for you, believer. Because secular means without God. God is with us, and so your work is very sacred indeed. Merry Christmas. I'll see you guys next week. Hey friends, this is your last chance to claim all the amazing pre order bonuses for five mere Christians before they go away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9. I've never offered this many pre order bonuses on a book before, so when you fill out the form@5merechristians.com Number one, you're going to be entered to win an incredible trip for you and a friend to tour CS Lewis's favorite spots in Oxford, explore Olay, Kirk Christensen's former stomping grounds at Lego headquarters in Denmark, and much more. Number two, you'll be invited to join my first ever interactive reading, culminating in a zoom call with me and my co author on this book, Kaylee Cox. Number three, you're going to be getting a money back guarantee to try the book risk free. And number four, you'll also get access to a free course I'm not selling anywhere called how to write a book 10x faster and better with an Affordable co Author. You can claim all these bonuses in just two simple steps. Step 1 Pre order 5 mirror Christians in any format you want. It can be hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever and you can order it from wherever. It doesn't matter to me. Step 2 Go to 5Mere Christians.com and fill out the form of that page and that's it. I'll send you all those bonuses. You'll be entered into the sweepstakes with one simple form submission. But hey, don't wait all of these off. All of these offers, all these bonuses, they're going away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9th. So visit 5Mere Christians.com right now to claim your bonuses.