Marcus Brotherton (Biographer)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back.

Guarantee on this book.

I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me, right. I know this is a very different biography. What is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on.

This podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right? So that's the first reason this is.

A risk and I'm gonna de risk.

This book for you.

Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended.

End quote. But here's the thing.

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Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Mere Christians podcast. Hi, I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors, we're not religious professionals, but who work as surgeons and lifeguards and real estate agents. That's the question we explore every week on this podcast. And today I'm posing it to my friend Marcus Brotherton. He's the New York Times best selling biographer of a crazy number of books, co author of a lot of books with Louis Giglio and Gary Sinise and many others. Marcus is one of the few repeat guests we've ever had on the podcast.

But I wanted to bring him back.

For a very specific topic. We're talking about discouragement and dismay at work, and specifically seven questions Marcus recommends we ask when we're discouraged in our jobs. Throughout this episode, we talked about examples from both of our careers, including mine. About how God has used professional trials for our sanctification.

And we also talked about why Marcus.

Left 10 years of pastoral ministry to become a journalist and a full time biographer. I think you guys are going to love this different, super practical, super encouraging episode with my friend Marcus Brotherton. Marcus Brotherton, welcome back to the podcast. This is very rare that we have return guests on the Mere Christians podcast. Back then it was called the Call to Mastery. So, yeah, this is a, this is an honor. Marcus, I think we've had like two or three repeat guests. I'm excited you're back. You, you were episode 68, which aired back on November 11, 2020. For those who haven't listened to that episode yet, tell us what you do for a living. You have a very specific niche as a writer. Tell us about that.

Yeah, so I'm a full time author and a co author. I write my own books about every other year I do my own book and then I help as a co author or a collaborative writer, I help people write their books. And it's a process of just taking whatever idea they have or whatever stage of manuscript they have and just making a compelling book out of it.

So, yeah, you did that with Lieutenant Dan, if I recall.

Yeah, yeah. Gary Sinise. I've worked with him. Great guy. It's awesome.

I want to, I want to meet Gary one of these days. My all time favorite movie.

Yeah, he's great.

I'm a massive fan. And you were in pastoral ministry before this, right? Tell us about how that shift happened.

Yeah, almost 10 years in pastoral ministry. It was a season of my life where I had never anticipated it. I had never sort of wanted to go that direction even. But an opportunity came up and it was as a Christian, I prayed about it and it was just this real strong sense of the Lord's guidance saying, yes, you know, walk in this area. So I was mostly in youth ministry for those years, and it was a great time. I look back on it now, I just feel so blessed to be part of that.

And then you made the shift to being a journalist. Right. How'd that happen?

Right. Just even to back up a second, my father was a minister, my mother was a journalist. So I'd grown up with both of these influences.

That's right.

I remember you telling me this.

Yeah, yeah. After the season of pastoral ministry again, it was just sort of a really strong, now it's time to write. I was 31 years old, so I answered an ad in the newspaper to be a newspaper reporter. It was kind of this humble little newspaper in southwest Washington. We had a pretty good reach. We were independent, we were feisty. And, yeah, for the next five years, I was general assignment newspaper reporter day in, day out, writing a thousand words a day.

Yeah, I love it. So in the past few weeks, I have heard from, I don't know, three, maybe four pastors leaving their roles in order to take jobs like this one as mere Christians, not because they had to, but because they genuinely believe that roles outside the local church can be not in all cases, but can be more effective advance of the kingdom. I've just been, like, blown away by this trend again, just in the last, like, two or three weeks. Do you think this is a trend we're going to keep seeing more of? Because Lord knows we need great local pastors.

Right.

Like, what do you think is going on here?

Yeah, I think during COVID just a lot of pastors got worn out. Certainly we're hearing this a lot these days that it's. It was just, you know, such a difficult time for everybody, and pastors were really on the front lines there. At the same time, you know, it is definitely strategic to be out of a church role. And yet still, it's still the same you. All of us, as Christians, we're all called to be worshipers and ministers. Worshipers in the sense that we love God, we follow God, ministers in the sense that we love other people. So if you're driving a bread truck or if you're preaching every Sunday morning from the pulpit, the same you is the same you.

You're part of the royal priesthood, as Peter says.

Absolutely. Yeah. You're still trying to do the same thing, which is ultimately to draw a person closer to God. So you're going to be the same you in your new role.

Yeah. And I know we have a lot of pastors, pastors who listen to this show obviously don't want to be misunderstood. I'm not endorsing every pastor should go leave their job and go be a biographer like you, Marcus. Now more than ever, I believe we need great pastors of local churches. I'm a massive fan of the local church. I love my pastor so much. But because of the work I do, I just find this trend really fascinating. Just. It just reminds us that the work you're doing, listeners outside of the four walls of the local church is ministry, is a means of giving people a taste of the kingdom. Whether you're a biographer or bread truck driver. I don't know why you came up with bread truck driver. That's a very obscure reference, Marcus. But, yeah, it's spot on. I love it.

Yeah. Tugbo captain. If you're gonna be a tugboat captain, I love it.

Hey, why.

Why Biographies for you. How. How do you see that work? Connecting to the work God's doing in the world?

Biographies give this chance to examine a person's life. And at our core, we're all basically just ordinary people. And yet the people I write about are faced with extraordinary tasks, and that really fascinates me. How does this ordinary guy or ordinary woman deal with whatever's handed to him or her? And from that, the fascinating piece for me is we can. We can learn just so much about overcoming obstacles and, you know, doing the next thing and doing things with nobility and purpose and hope.

Yeah. You could draw the lessons from those stories.

Right, right, right.

Yeah. So here's why I invited you back onto the show. Couple of weeks ago, maybe months ago now, we'd been exchanging some emails around a topic. I know a lot of the mere Christians listening have experienced, are experiencing may experience in the future. And that topic is really one of the. Guess. I guess I would call it vocational disappointment. Right. Dismay is a strong word, but just either you hate your job or they've been. They're not further along for as far along as they thought they might be at this stage in their career. I know you've been thinking a lot about this topic lately. I'm curious as to why. What's the impetus here for you personally thinking about vocational disappointment?

So more than two years ago now, I had this book that was just coming out called Blaze of Light.

I remember.

That's the one that we talked about. Yeah, yeah. Fascinating book. Fascinating story. It was the life story of Gary Bykirk, Medal of Honor recipient. And Gary was. He's just an absolute peach of a gentleman. He's Actually, he's since passed away since then. He died of pancreatic cancer last Christmas, which makes his story even all the more poignant. But at the time, Gary, just a great guy, loved working with him. We'd had him over to our house, he'd met my children. I felt so privileged to work on a story. And the industry was felt the same way. I mean, his book proposal, it had gone to like a five way auction. Five publishers were interested in this.

Wow.

There was this widespread excitement about getting his story out there as his book progressed, and it was sort of in the pipeline and ready to go. We had a ton of publicity lined up for the book, and books really live or die on publicity. I mean, we had TV lined up, we had book signings in major cities, we had radio stuff, we had, you know, bookstores were all set across the country. And then literally two weeks before the book comes out, Covid hits with this huge force and everything shuts down. And, you know, it's. It's difficult for people the world over for us. We're going, okay, this fantastic book falls flat. Yeah, we can't get it. Bookstores across the country are shuttered. We can't get in the news cycle anywhere. All of our appearances, every single one, is canceled. And so I have it. And that's when I came on the show to talk with you, because we shared at the same time, the same publisher. And I confess this big feeling of dismay, like something that you really hope will happen doesn't happen. And then I started thinking, actually, Jordan, after I got off your podcast, it was like unprecedented times call for unprecedented learning. Right. And so, as opposed to being sort of stymied by this dismay, I'm going to start studying it. I'm going to go, okay, what exactly is happening here in my own soul? I don't merely want some life hacks to kind of like, be cheerful, be happy, get on with it. I want deep soul work to go. What is happening between me and God? Why am I disappointed? How can I overcome that disappointment? Or even better yet, I might not overcome the disappointment, but I'm going to learn and I'm going to grow and I'm going to be refined by this experience. Experience.

I love that distinction between I think anytime we come across an obstacle, probably even the characters in your biographies, it's all about overcoming that obstacle. I think what you're talking about is like sitting in it.

Yes, right.

And realizing that to quote Ryan Holiday, the obstacle is the way, not necessarily the way out, but the way to Our sanctification. Right. And becoming more like Christ. So, listen, you're a former pastor. How would you counsel, based on what you've learned over the last few years of this disappointment in a book, how would you counsel the mere Christians who are listening who are in the exact same spot? Either they have a project that fell flat or they lost their job recently, whatever it is, how would you counsel them to respond to their circumstances in a biblical way?

Yeah. So the first thing that people often want to do is fight or flight. Right. They want to storm into their boss's office and just, you know, take this job and shove it. I'm out of here. I can't take this anymore. And I think my counsel there is just take a beat. Take a long beat. And when dismayed, it's really, it's helpful to uncover the spiritual cause, the sole cause. So prayerfully examine your situation to discern why you're dismayed. And then once you pinpoint the reason, you might not even pinpoint the reason, but once, once you even sort of go, yes, in honesty, I'm going to sit with this feeling of being dismayed, then you can address it, or even better, let better yet, let God address it from a scriptural perspective, from that soul perspective.

What was the soul level root for you personally? Go back two years ago. You're starting to do this soul care, this soul work. What was it for you at the root that was causing this dismay?

I think I'm still learning that. And that's probably another piece of it. This answer isn't arrived at by usually overnight. And sometimes you have to be very content to go, okay, I might be in a season of dismay. And even though we're coming out of COVID now, and even sort of life is better on many levels, I think many people are still dealing with that residue of two lost years or two lost years of, well, I didn't get to go to this wedding, or I didn't get to attend this function, or I missed my friends. And so we're all in this season of restoration right now where the answers are coming. Some answers are coming right away. Some answers are slower to arrive, and we need to be okay with that.

Yeah, I don't know that I've ever really talked about this publicly, but I also had a book come out right about the same time with the same publisher, January 2020, this book called Master of One, which, if you go read the Amazon reviews at the time, it was my best book I had ever written, and it did well, but not as well, as I had hoped. Right. And that was a really rough process for me to wrestle with for a little bit there. And as you and I were exchanging emails about this topic of vocational dismay, you mentioned that you had these series of questions, these battery of questions that you had been asking yourself to help you do the soul work through that dismay. I'm wondering if you'd be willing to share those questions with our listeners, because I found them personally be so incredibly helpful and it may take some time to get through them all. But would you mind sharing those with our listeners, Marcus?

Yeah. So one of the first big questions that I was asking myself is, does God still have me in a season of preparation? I'm 53 years old, and yet preparation can happen any time of life. You might be being prepared for the next season as much as anything. And the big answer there is always God is calling you closer to himself. God wants more of him in your life and sort of bless up you or more of a refined you. So consider the patriarch Joseph. Before Joseph arrived at his life's work, he had this. He had a ton of preparation to do. You think about his resume. He went from being sort of this favored son, the coat of many colors, to slavery and prison life and, you know, eating bread and water. And then finally, and pretty quickly for Joseph, he goes from the back of the line to the front of the line. Almost instantly, he comes to second in command of all of Egypt. So if you're in a season of training, boy, it can be dismaying to go, I'm not at my final destination here at all. But the best thing you can do is turn to God. Learn what you need to learn. Keep your integrity. Years ago, it was my first year of graduate school. I was working as the student manager for a catering company. And one of my jobs was to serve the president of the university. Anytime you had a business lunch, you would take them in the conference room next to his office. So one day, one of the president's guests was Carl, Carl karcher. He's the CEO of Carl's Jr restaurants. Yeah, here I am serving Carl lunch, and Carl pulls me aside. He's an elderly man by then. He's probably mid-70s. I'm in my early 20s. He pulls me aside, he goes, what are you doing with your life, son? I'm like, yeah, you know, I'm working on my master's degree. Yeah, I'm working on my master's degree. I'm serving you lunch. I'm heading towards some kind of career in writing. Ultimately, he said, well, that's good. He said, one of the best ways you can prepare for your future career is to work as a waiter today. In other words, do exactly what you're doing. I'm like, why? He says, because it teaches you that the customer matters. If you want to succeed in almost any profession, you're always going to be serving something to a customer. I've never forgotten that. That's good.

That's good. So that's the first question on your list, which I love. Does God have me in a season of preparation? What's the second?

Is God using the dismay that I feel in my job to strengthen me? All right. Before David slew Goliath, he was just a sort of this ruddy faced shepherd boy. He's learning how to fight the literal predators around him, the lions, the bears. Before David tackles Goliath, he's got to learn. He's got to learn how to be strong. So I think often God allows hardships that cause dismay because he wants us to learn how to persevere, how to grow strong. Jeremiah 12:5 says, if you've raced with men on foot and if they have worn you out, then how can you ever compete with horses? In other words, you've got to learn how to race on foot and not grow tired. So I eventually stretched my master's degree to five years. During much of that time, I was in youth ministry. It was the youth director at our church. One day we're out playing Ultimate Frisbee with the kids and this student, he just charges into me. He barrels into me and I go down hard. I mean, we're playing tackle ultimate Frisbee, right?

Yeah.

So I've been in school, I've been in university. I'm kind of flabby at that point in my life. I'm not taking very good care of myself. And it was funny because in that moment of going down hard, I decided to join a gym. I'm like, never again. Right, right, right. Started getting strong physically. Yeah. So the next time we play Ultimate Frisbee, the same kid barrels into me, but it didn't go down.

Yeah.

And that whole season of life, in my, in my late 20s, there, there was a lot of strengthening. I was working, my gosh, I was working with the sheriff's office with troubled kids, or I was learning how to just to take criticism and not to fall apart. Or I was learning how to do public speaking week after week after week. You've got to, you've got to learn how to, how to not Be afraid of a crowd. Tremendous strengthening happened in those years.

That's so good. All right, so number one, does God have me in a season of preparation? Number two, is God using the dismay I feel in my job to strengthen me? Did I get those right?

Yes.

All right, what's number three?

Has God called me to a noble job that I'm not passionate about? Jordan here is so good.

Yeah.

The life changing piece here because we hear all the time in the Christian community that God calls us to our passions. All right, do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Now, it's true, because there are some paradoxes to this. Right? Because God gives us the desires of our hearts. And yet when you, when you search the scriptures, when you look at the Bible, there's any number of experiences that people have where God calls them to do a job, at least for a season, that they aren't excited about. Jonah, he's called to Nineveh. He doesn't want to go there. Moses, he's called to lead the children of Israel out of Egypt. But he asks. He wants Aaron, his brother, to do it instead. If you're in a season of dismay, learn to be obedient to God's voice and then stay the course and do the job. So eventually, I spent almost 10 years in youth work until I'm 31, before I go on to my writing career. Here's the deal. I can't say I was ever hugely passionate about youth work. Now I love the students. I cared for them, absolutely. I wanted to see them succeed, but I never felt like youth ministry was my destination. I did sense, however, that God wanted me in youth work for that specific season of my life. And the great thing is, I look back on it now, 25 years later, whatever it is, and I go, wow, what a terrific way to spend that early season of my career. My job involved snow retreats in winter, rafting trips in summer, working in this world of people and ideas and creativity. I've got a good buddy. He got his degree in finance. He spent the first decade of his career in a cubicle making cold calls. Yeah, I mean, you know what I gotta say, What a miserable thing to be doing. Yeah, he eventually came out of it. He's doing very well now. But, man, the first 10 years of my career, I was outside and I was working with people. I'm just nothing but grateful.

Man, I want to stop you here and we could pick back up to these questions. These are so, so helpful. I know to me, I'm sure, to our Listeners. Because I talk a lot about this issue in my books, especially Master of One. This idea that, like, somehow we've fallen for this worldly lie, that our happiness is the point of life, our happiness is the point of work.

Yet sometimes God calls people, as you.

Pointed out, Marcus, to work that they are not passionate about.

But.

And this is the idea I really explored, a Master of One. If we sink our teeth into that work and do it as unto the Lord, do it exceptionally well, happiness and joy for ourselves tend to follow. Right. You get to love what you do by getting really good at it, or God's preparing you for something else. Right. So anyways, I found that to be true in my own life. It sounds like you have, too. So sorry I cut you off to your seven questions, but I love this third one. Can you articulate it again? I want to make sure I got it.

Yeah. Maybe God has called you to do a noble job that you're not passionate about. Yeah. Jordan, let me. Let me just ask you. Let me just interview you here. I mean, was there. Was there a time in your life where you're going, man, I really believe that the Lord has called me to this, but, man, I'm just not very happy.

Yeah. So I struggle here. Right. I have pretty much always enjoyed my work, which I'm hesitant to say that because I know that's a luxury. It's a blessing from God that not many people can affirm and articulate. I will say this, though. When I did my internship in the White House, I did an internship in the White House under George W. Bush in the fall of 2006. And when I was there, I hated it. I hate it. I mean, you want once in a lifetime opportunity. I'm literally writing political briefings for my boss that take on Air Force One and brief the president and vice president, whatever. You would think I would have loved it, but I hated it. The hours were crazy. There were some people that I worked with who were just belligerent and rude and mean, whatever. And I remember very vividly, I stepped into the halls of the White House one day and called my dad. And I was like, hey, I don't know that I'm going to make it up here. I think I want to come back to Tallahassee and go back to Florida State. And he really encouraged me to stay. Right. That God would have some purpose in those tough days. You know what, Marcus? I tell people all the time, people ask, where did you learn how to write? I'm like, listen, I was a pretty Bad English student in high school. I learned to write at the White House. That's all I did. I wrote political briefings all day long.

Right.

And God used that time doing work. I wasn't necessarily. I was passionate about it in a way, but it wasn't a fun job. In a lot of ways. This is a really grinding job. And yet now I can look back on and see clearly how God used that for good, for better career opportunities. But more than that, I think looking back, he used it for my sanctification.

Yeah.

And realizing that, man, how dare I complain about a hard job at the White House? Are you kidding me? Some people are working three jobs right now to make ends meet. And so just, I don't know. There is a very humbling experience. All to say, that was very good for my, I think, spiritual development.

Yeah. It may be that God wants you to do a hard job that, you know, it's just kind of a dirty job that nobody wants to do. It may be that God wants you to learn from the negative. Right. Because, you know, say you've got a supervisor, and this supervisor is just a jerk. There are 10 things you can learn from the supervisor about what not to do. Like study the negative as much as study the positive. Right?

Yeah.

Yeah. And then also just for your own refining your own sanctification as you're talking about. Absolutely.

Exactly. All right, so I'm writing down these questions as we go. Number one, I've got. Does God have me in a season of preparation? Again, talking through seven questions that we should be asking ourselves when we are dismayed vocationally? Number one, does God have me in a season of preparation? Number two, is God using this dismay? I feel my job to strengthen me? Number three, has God called me to a noble job that I'm not passionate about? What's the fourth question you'd recommend to our listeners?

Marcus, point blank. Am I dismayed because I'm under spiritual attack now? This is not popular to talk about these days. We tend to. In popular culture. We tend to think about the devil as either a figment of our imagination or some sort of cartoon character. He's got pointy horns and a tail. And, you know, this is. Watch out, because there's. He's on your shoulder. The Bible indicates. All right, you know, deal with the Bible. John 10:10 says that we definitely have an enemy of our soul who wants to steal, kill, and destroy. He wants to steal whatever is valuable to us. He wants to kill whatever we hold is important. He wants to destroy all that is Good in our life.

First.

Thessalonians 2:17 says, Paul intensely wants to visit the Church of Thessalonica. That's his job. That's his ministry. He's passionate about it. Paul says, but Satan blocked our way. So, yes, if you're in a noble profession, expect spiritual opposition. And if you sense a spiritual attack, then pray. Pray the full authority of Jesus Christ over your life. Matthew 28. Put on the whole armor of God. Ephesians 6. Pray for the Holy Spirit's power in your life. Galatians 5. Pray and pray often with another person, whether two or three are gathered together. So one time I'm in Haiti. I'm doing this international service trip, and I'm talking with a Haitian pastor down there. And the Haitian pastor is talking about how they started a church and a school and a medical clinic in this little town that are really serving the people and helping sort of build into them mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally, every which way. And this little town in Haiti was thriving. But there was one person who really opposed them, and that was the witch doctor. I mean, in Haiti, there is this level of spiritual opposition that where it's just overt. We're sometimes not aware of it in North America, but yeah. So the witch doctor moved into the church. Like, his house was, like, right next door to the church. So I'm talking to this pastor, and he goes. And I say, my goodness, weren't you, like, afraid? I mean, weren't you? You're living right next to a door, right next door to this guy who is so steeped in spiritual darkness. And this pastor, it was Jordan. It was amazingly, like, casual. The response he gave me, he kind of. He kind of, like, shrugs, and he kind of, I don't know, looks at the back of his fingernails and goes, nah. He goes, we have Christ. And that's his only response. We have Christ?

Yeah.

The Bible says, greater is he that is in us than he that is in the world. If we have Christ in us, greater is he that is in us than he is in the world.

That's really good. All right, what's question number five?

Is God refining me by this job? Now, we've touched on this before. You may be at your dream job. You're not succeeding as you hoped. It may be that God is using the difficult circumstances of that job to refine you. So the disciples, James and John, they initially define success in very physical terms. They want to be sitting at the right and left hands of Jesus. Jesus, we want to be great in your kingdom. Jesus we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you. That's what. That's what the Bible says. But Jesus kind of. He schools them on what the secret of true success is. This is Mark, chapter 10. And he says, look, guys, if you want to become great in my kingdom, then you're going to have to learn how to serve. So sometimes, here's the point. Sometimes God wants you to redefine success. He wants you to learn full dependence on Him. He wants you to align your heart with his heart.

Yeah. And what he ultimately wants. This is the promise of Romans 8, 28, 29. We take this promise out of context all the time. God's working everything for our good, and we think that means. Means a bigger paycheck. Paul tells us what the good is in verse 29. It's our sanctification. And when you email me these questions beforehand, this is the one that hit me the most. Because whenever I'm feeling discouraged about something professionally, my mind immediately goes to, how do we fix it?

Yeah.

Rather than, okay, God. Romans 8:29. How are you trying to. How are you using this circumstance to mold me into the likeness of your son?

Son.

Right. And I'm trying.

I'm.

I'm really bad at this. Really bad at this. But I'm trying to sit with that question more and more.

Yeah, Sanctification, it's. It's this. It's kind of a big word. It's kind of an archaic word. Son, be sanctified. What does it even mean to be sanctified? Sanctification, as you've just described it, Jordan, is this ongoing process that God changes us. God refines us into the image of His Son. Son. And sanctification, it happens in an instant upon conversion, and yet it also happens ongoing forever. As long as we are here on earth, God is working in our lives, continually changing us, molding us, shaping us. The cool thing is God is good, and so we don't have to fear, you know, the hands of the potter as we are clay on his will. God has good hands. God has shaping hands, and he's bringing these difficulties in our lives, not because he is the author of evil, far from that. He is using these circumstances to shape and mold us in good and benevolent ways.

Yeah. I'll say this, too. I would argue work is one of the top two or three vehicles God uses to refine us into sanctifies. Tim Keller says, I just pulled this up in Evernote. Quote, work is often the crucible in which God shines a light on A person's idols and refines them in Christ likeness. End quote. So if you're in a period of vocational dismay or discouragement, look for where God is shining light on your idols and refining you into the image of Christ. All right, Marcus, round us out. What are questions 6 and 7?

Question 6. Is God using my dismay to propel me forward? This I found fascinating here. God often allows discontentment in our lives. God often allows dismay because he wants to use it as a forward motivator. Okay, so when the children of Israel were slaves in Egypt, they were ordered. One of the last things they were ordered was to make bricks without straw. Why? Up to that point, they had been making bricks and their straw had been provided. But suddenly the nation of Egypt wants to make life more difficult for them. Why does this happen? Because God knew that after they were freed, they would be tempted to look back on Egypt with fondness. Now this actually does happen. Oh, remember the onions we used to eat, the leeks, garlics? We had such great food in Egypt. But God allows us greater difficulty to propel them to new and better location. He wants us to go, hey, we've got to leave Egypt behind and we can't look back. Now, here's the deal. I believe that the last year of your job will often be the hardest year you have faced. Or if you're having a hard year, this may be your last year in that position. Why? God is allowing you to feel dismayed because he wants you to be confident in your next move. I can't stay here. I have to do something else. I have to work someplace else. I have to go forward. I'm not looking back.

I've never thought of this before, but this makes sense, right? That could certainly be one of the way that God is using that situation. All right, what's the last question, Markus?

Is God using my dismay to direct me farther than I've envisioned? 1st Chronicles 17. King David is convinced that God wants him to build a temple. But when David starts to move that direction, God says, no, David shed too much blood instead. Actually, Solomon will build that temple. And what we discover is really that God is actually building David a lasting house instead. It's God is working in these men's lives.

Yeah, it's a really good. My friend. I think this is obviously super practical. Thank you for sharing it. Hey, for those listening who want to jot down all seven questions, can you just quickly restate them in order for them?

Sure. So point one is, does God have me in a season of preparation? Preparation Point Two, Is God using the dismay I feel in my job to strengthen me? Does God want me stronger for the next task or stronger for this task? Point 3. Has God called me to a noble job that I'm not passionate about? This is the Jonah going to Nineveh.4. Am I dismayed because I'm under spiritual attack? We do have an enemy of our souls, and yet we have Christ. We don't need to be afraid. Point 5. Is God refining me by this job, by this position? Is God sanctifying me? Is God molding me? Is God shaping me?.6. Is God using my dismay to propel me forward? Forward. Often the. The last season of your job will be the hardest year because God doesn't want you to look back. God only wants to look forward in this case.7. Is God using my dismay to direct me farther than I'd envisioned. I want to go from point A to point B. God is actually taking me to point C. Got to go through point B first.

Yeah, it's really good. I'd also add this. I say it a lot on this podcast because it's one of my favorite promises in all of scripture. But I don't think it's possible to overstate it. Even if you go through this work and you go through these seven questions and you're still stuck three months from now, six months from now, 12 months from now, three years from now, you always are in a position where you don't love your job. Isaiah 65 promises that God's chosen people will long enjoy the work of their hands. Not necessarily in this life, but definitely in the life to come. On the new earth, Heaven is not devoid of work. It is filled with it. But work without the curse. Marcus, I'm curious if you can dream here for a second. What do you think your work is going to look like on the new earth for eternity without the curse? Can you even go there mentally?

Yeah. And Jordan, I just want to add to what you're saying as well, because what you just said is so good. These seven that we've talked about today, they aren't hard and fast rules.

Yeah.

I mean, God may have you in a season of dismay for reasons that you'll never know on this side of heaven.

Amen. Yes.

Your responsibility is whether you know or don't know. It's to lean into God and to trust that his ways are always good. So what am I going to be doing in heaven, boy? Enjoying him forever. Yeah. I think there are. There are going to be jobs in heaven. You know, work was given to Adam and Eve before the curse came. Adam was naming the animals. They were tasked with tending the garden. And so work appears in this perfect condition. And so if. If work was in the first earth in its perfect condition, work is going to be in the. In the age to come.

Yeah.

In the new heavens and the new earth. And what does that work like? It's going to be work that's freeing and fulfilling and gives purpose. During COVID I actually loved work. Work was the one area of my life that I felt most normal in. And my goodness, if I didn't have work during COVID I would have been really spiraling. Yeah, I loved work. Work can be a good thing.

I think that's glimpses of what's to come. Right. I think everybody's had that day at the office where everything just clicked. You felt God's pleasure.

Yes.

As Eric Liddell says in Chariots of Fire. Right. And that day, even. Even that day is so imperfect. Right. It's just a glimpse and a foretaste of perfect work on the new Earth. Marcus, you alluded to this a minute ago, but I want you to hit the nail on the head a little more directly. How should, after going through these seven questions, maybe meditating on the. The fact that one day work will be perfect worship again? How should all of that shape practically how we do the work today? Especially. Especially jobs we don't love.

Psalm 34. 4 comes to mind. I sought the Lord, and he answered me. He delivered me from all my fears. Those who look to him are radiant. Their faces are never covered with shame. So I do believe that God is a dialoguing God.

Yes.

This may sound crazy if you're not sort of a person of faith, but yeah, God does speak to you by Scripture, by the power of his Holy Spirit working in your life, by that still small voice, by the people around you. God can speak to your life in any number of ways. And if you are in that difficult season of work, if you are experiencing dismay, then invite that conversation with the Lord. Seek the Lord and ask him, lord, what is going on? Will you give me an answer? Even will you tell me what's going on in my life right now? He may not. His answer may be simply, my grace is sufficient. My power is made perfect in weakness. And yet, when we do seek the Lord, that the principle here in Psalms is that he does answer us and he delivers us from our fears, and fear holds us down so many levels, and yet we can't give in to fear.

That's really good. Hey, I'm curious. You just released this new biography called A Bright and Blinding Sun. Did that book play a role in your thinking about this topic? I haven't cracked open the book yet, but is this topic related to that book?

So Bright and Morning sun. It's the subtitle is a World War II story of survival, Love and redemption. So this is again, it's my latest nonfiction work. It's a, it's a work of history. It's a true story. It's about this 14 year old soldier who fights on baton. He finds true love, he survives as a POW all before he's out of his teenage years.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah, it's. It's definitely a story. It's. If you like Laura Hillenbrand's book Unbroken, you're gonna love. Yeah, you're gonna love A bright and Blind son. So it, this book, it educates you about the War Pacific. It inspires you toward courage, forgiveness, gratefulness, and I think it's just an entertaining read as well. If you are feeling dismay, sometimes the best can do. The best thing you can do is just go to a pure sense of pleasure. What do you enjoy doing? Man, I love reading history. I love reading inspiring book. I love reading a book that takes me to a different location. Yeah, yeah, you'll love it.

That's a good segue to the question I ask every guest. Which books do you find yourself recommending or gifting most frequently these days?

I'm going to recommend two at this point, Jordan. One is a an old classic book called your God is Too Small by J.B. phillips. It invites you to understand God without the labels that we often use, without earthly restraints. J.B. phillips, his thesis is the that God is way more big than we think he is, which is fascinating. The other book that I really like these days is a book called Don't Give the Enemy a Seat at yout Table by Louie Giglio.

Yeah, I haven't read this, but I've heard of it.

Yeah, I've been Louie's writing partner the last, oh, I think eight years or so. Louis and I work very closely together on his books. They're really, they're his messages. We take his sermons and turn them into books and then he goes over them himself. Louis is a really good writer himself. He's just super, super busy. And so we work in tandem to help get his messages on paper. So anyway, this book, it encourages people to break free from the chains of negative thinking. It's often just the negative Thinking that keeps us down. Oh, I'm in a season of dismay, I'll never get out of it. Or oh, I'm in a season of dismay, it's going to be like this forever. Or oh, I'm in a season of dismay, it's just raining on me. Yeah. No, this book is all about freedom. God offers us purpose and joy and life and confidence. Yeah. And we can go forward in him.

It's good. I gotta ask a follow up book question. You mentioned entertaining nonfiction. Nonfiction that reads like fiction. This is my favorite category of books ever. What's your favorite in that genre? Is it Laura Hildenbrand? Is it Seabiscuit and Unbroken? What? What is it for you?

Yeah, I love Laura. Sort of. Anything she writes is wonderful. We're Facebook friends. We communicate back and forth every so often. Yeah, I think she's at the top of her. Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah, she's amazing. I just read on vacation a few weeks ago this phenomenal book in this category called Rocket Men. It was the story of Apollo 8. First guys to go to the moon. It was one of those books that like, just made me fall in love with words again. It's kind of like shoe dog. Like anytime I'm, I don't know, jaded by books and been in a drought of great writing, I go ready, shoe dog. And now Rocketman will be in that. In that vein. Hey, Marcus, who would you want to hear on this podcast talking about how God's word should shape the work that mere Christians are doing in the world?

Let's see if we get Louie on your show. Have you had Louis on before?

It's a good idea. We haven't had Louis. Louis, always welcome. Always welcome.

I'll reach out to his people and yeah, it'd be great to have him on your show. Yeah.

Yeah, I think that's a great idea. Hey, Marcus, one thing you want to reiterate from our conversation before we sign off.

If you are feeling dismayed right now in your career, in your life, in your marriage, that dismay is mostly likely, is most likely there for a reason, that dismay has a purpose. Ask God to show you that reason or give you the grace and the strength for each day to keep going until he opens the next door for you.

Marcus, I want to commend you, man, for just your heart, the great work you do, to tell wonderful stories. Thank you for renewing our minds with biblical truths that give us perspective and hope when our work is not yet what it will one day be on the new Earth. By the way, I, I just, I gotta commend you for this as well. Man like you could easily came here and just ratted off, rattled off seven questions that were your opinion on how to navigate this. You backed every single one up with scripture. Thank you for loving God's word and wanting to build your entire life around that. Guys, if you're interested in Marcus's work, he's pretty googleable. You can find him really easily. Marcus, what's your author website? Is it marcusbrotherton.com that's it.

Yep.

All right. And of course his new book Bright and Blinding sun sounds fascinating. Go check it out. Marcus, thanks for being here.

Thanks Jordan. Great to be here.

I told you that was a different episode. It's very rare that I ask somebody to go that deep on one specific topic. If you loved it, I want to know. If you hated it, I want to know. Let me know@jordanrayner.com contact and while you're there, be sure to recommend a guest that you would love to hear here on the Mere Christians podcast. Guys, thank you so much for tuning in this week. I'll see you next time. Foreign.

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