Mark Batterson (Author of A Million Little Miracles)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back guarantee on this book. I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me, right. I know this is a very different biography. What is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right? So that's the first reason this is a risk and I'm gonna de risk this book for you. Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended. End quote. But here's the thing. In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on 5 mereChristians. Calm and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5merechristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as geometry teachers Tugboat drivers and billing specialists. That's the question we explore every day. And today I'm posing it to my good friend Mark Batterson. He's the New York Times best selling author of a bunch of books including Win the Day, the Circle Maker, Chase the Lion, and his latest book, which we're discussing in today's episode, A Million Little Miracles. Mark and I talked about how our work can teach us more about God and his character, why you should consider installing a personal Mount Rushmore behind your desk, and how you and I can make work more playful and fun for our teams. You are not going to want to miss this episode with my friend, Mark Batterson. Mark Batterson, welcome back to the Mere Christians Podcast, my friends.

Good to see you. Well, here we are again.

Again. Three p Guests by the. Oh, man, I'm just thinking about this. I should have had the Chicago Bulls theme song playing for you as you walked on. Yes, you talked about this in the book. You get goosebumps hearing the song. It's the greatest song ever. I still do Bach and G Major. I don't know. Take a backseat.

Yeah, right.

Like serious. But you grew up in Chicago, like when Jordan was playing for the Bulls, right?

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Did you see him walk out to this?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I. I went to a game his rookie season when I was a kid. And you're old and I, I still hear it. I am old. I still hear it in my head. And now from North Carolina, and I serious is playing in the background, I get goosebumps. So you know what I did? I used to watch every Bulls game and then I would go out to my driveway and. And I would replicate the dunks with. With. Wait, hold on. With a trampoline. I literally had a trampoline in our driveway and I would jump off of it. And eventually, eventually I did play above the rim. True story.

That's amazing.

But when I was a kid, I used to take the trampoline out and I would go replicate. However Jordan dunked that game, I would go out and replicate it.

It's so good. I had a boombox. So, like, basketball was my life until I stopped growing or realizing I was never going to compete and captain at 5 foot 6. But I would take a boombox out to my front yard to the basketball hoop, and I would play two songs. I would play Sirius, the Chicago Bulls intro song, and I would play Space Jam, the theme from Space Jam, because that had came out when I was a kid and that was it. I would just, you know, Ball all day with Space Jam and the Chicago Bulls theme song.

And, you know, inquiring listeners want to know, is Jordan after the basketball player or the river or something else?

That is a good question. I don't know that I've ever gotten clarity on this for my parents, although I was born in 86.

Yeah.

So it couldn't have been Michael. I mean, I guess it.

No, it's. Sure, it could have, because he.

He was unc. Yeah.

I guess he was starting to make his way.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I gotta text Tom and Lynette.

We'll.

We'll get to my parents. We'll ask them.

All right.

Hey, man, I'm so pumped to talk about this new book, A Million Little Miracles. Not. Not all that new anymore by the time this releasing. So you and I had dinner in D.C. right at the start of this project. I don't even think you had started working on. I think it was the summer before you started working on it, and you didn't even have a title for yet. And I remember you describing it to me as a greatest hits tape of your stuff. And, man, I think you're wrong. I think what ended up on the page. This is the most original thing you've written in a long time. I loved it. Tell our listeners what this book is all about.

Yeah, well, as authors, I better preface it and just say I allow myself about 10 to 15% carryover from previous writing projects.

And your readers want that.

Yeah, there's some stories and studies that deserve to be cited in more than one book. So.

But.

But I would say this is new ground. This is kind of fresh territory. So, you know, in a nutshell, I know people who say they've never experienced a miracle. With all due respect, you have never not. In fact, you are one. And so this is almost a book on apologetics incognito, that, you know, I'm arguing for intelligent design, but doing it in a way that I think is creative and palatable and honestly, fun. Like, hey. Like, it's just fun to think about the fact that even on a day you didn't get much done, you are on a planet that's traveling 67,000 miles per hour through space. So even on a day where you feel like I did nothing. No, you traveled 1.6 million miles through space. So there's. That you're moving faster than you think you are. And. And that's. That's the idea of the book, is that there are miracles that are happening that we aren't even aware of 37 sextillion biochemical reactions happening in the human body at any given moment. In Jordan, I didn't wake up this morning and flip a switch. I don't have to change the batteries. And I would argue that in him we live and move and, and have our being. That life doesn't come from non life. Reason doesn't come from non reason. This is common sense and common science that, that there is overwhelming evidence that we were created. Now you can get into, well, who is that creator and what's his name? And. And I have thoughts on that. And. But I think, you know, the starting place is just to acknowledge you are not a cosmic accident, the result of random chance. You are the image of God, the apple of God's eye. You're God's workmanship. You're fearfully and wonderfully made. In fact, you are made a little lower than the angels and crown with glory. And that's where a theology of dignity starts. And I think it's something that this cultural moment, in all honesty, is begging for. The false narratives aren't working and they're backfiring and what you end up with is relativism, materialism and nihilism, and it's a dead end.

Yeah, yeah, it's so good, man. I loved it. I loved all the science. Hey, and you know, the audience. I'm. I always create content for mere Christians, as I call them, followers of Jesus who aren't pastors like yourself, but who work as entrepreneurs and scientists and baristas. And I'm going to ask you a bunch of different things from the book that I think are particularly relevant to that audience. And the first is this. In this science theme. I loved this quote. Maybe you had it in another book and I missed it, but every ology is a branch of theology, end quote. What do you mean by that? And why do you think it's relevant to our listeners?

Yeah, the genesis of that. I was a freshman at the University of Chicago. I was in a class on immunology, and the professor had just lectured on hemoglobin, which I don't think I'd ever heard of. Hemoglobin, Wasn't sure how to spell it. But Jordan, I walked out of that class praising God for hemoglobin because we have 30 trillion red blood cells, each of which has 260 million protein called hemoglobin, that deliver oxygen to the cells of the body. And so I remember walking out of that class thinking, yeah, it's a class in immunology, but it's also a class in theology. It's Psalm 139, fearfully and wonderfully made. So I don't know exactly when I kind of coined that phrase. You know, the common parlance is all truth is God's truth. But the way I kind of like to say it is every ology. And I don't want that to sound pejorative, like, I hope no one takes offense at that, but I think embryology is a branch of theology. So if you're studying astrophysics or neuroanatomy, what you're really doing is Romans 1:20, studying the invisible nature of God and how he's revealed himself.

This is why I love this, right? Because I actually think this is one of the reasons. I suspect this is one of the reasons that God gave us work to do in the beginning all along was because when we work, we have an opportunity to know God better.

Right.

And that's really easy to see in the sciences. Right. The ologies, if you will. But talk to our listeners who spend most of their days in an office not studying hemoglobin, right? They're typing emails, they're building spreadsheets. Can't that person also understand God better as they engage with the work?

Yeah. And it's when you understand the Hebrew word kibosh, which sounds like a Batman fight word, right?

Kapow, wham, pow, croco jacko.

Yes, kibosh. It's where that Genesis commission, when God says, I'm going to give you rulership, I'm going to give you stewardship, I want you to subdue. And the word in Hebrew, it really means to bring something under control that was out of control. So it could be. I interpret it as everything from innovating to renovating, but it's giving expression to the creative instincts that all of us have, which are a reflection of the image of God. Imagination is part of that imago day. And I think, you know, it's easy to learn how and forget why, and we just start doing what we were doing and then it's a 9 to 5, Monday to Friday. But I think remembering that God's the one who gave us the time and the talent to do what we do. And whether you're driving in Uber, which by the way, is a function of the posterior hippocampus, which is an incredible feat. My dog cannot drive a car. But you, have you tried?

Have you tried?

I have not tried. Although, boy, does she love putting her head outside the passenger side window. That she can do. It's this idea that whatever you do, you're exercising the time and talent that God's given you. And so whether you're pulling shots as a barista or even coding or doing data analysis, whatever it is, you're giving expression to these metacognitive abilities that God has given to us as. As humankind, which is really pretty amazing.

It's pretty amazing. And that's kind of the big takeaway of this book, or at least it was for me, was just wonder and awe. And I. I felt like that was a huge takeaway for the reader of just, like, encouraging readers to turn that wonder switch back on. To quote my friend Harris iii. And I'm curious to hear you talk a little bit. Why do you think that's important for our listeners, in particular these ambitious, driven Christian professionals? What's the connection between what wonder and the work that God has called us to do?

Yeah, well, Thomas Carile said that true worship really is wonder. It's the feeling of wonder. Now, I would go all the way back to. And God saw that it was good. And the word good is the Hebrew word to 556 times, I think, in the Old Testament. And it's not just good. It's gooder than good. It's as good as it gets. It's too good to be true, but it is. But I would argue that original emotion is that emotional reaction that God had to his creation. He kind of steps back from his own handiwork, and it's. It's this childlike wonder. It's this sense of awe at what he's created. And Jordan, we get glimpses, right? Like, you know, one of those super moons where it's like, whoa, whoa, I've seen the moon a thousand times, but that's unbelievable. Or. Or aurora borealis, or the first time you. You see the Grand Canyon, or, you know, these moments where the Celtic Christians called them thin places, where the supernatural kind of breaks through the natural, and you get these goosebumps that I think are a gift from God that allow us to really genuinely appreciate his creation. So, yeah, I think you can worship by singing lyrics on a screen that someone else wrote. That's great. But I think worship is something you can't put into words. It's this transcendent wonder. And I think when Jesus said, you must become like little children, I think that's part of what he meant, that, hey, let's tap into that inner child that's in you, and let's recapture some of that childlike wonder. And. And the truth is most of us lose it. And sometimes having your own child, you can get it back that way. And sometimes it's. It's nature. Sometimes it's just some experience that kind of snaps you out of the sleepwalk. Most of us are like Jacob pre Bethel. God was in this place, and we weren't aware of it. So really, this is a book about kind of waking back up to the wonder that's all around us all the time.

One of my favorite things to do to flip the wonder switch on with my kids is to try to get them to think about the thousands of seemingly ordinary jobs that God uses to deliver his extraordinary blessings. Right. Actually, rather than tell you about, let's do this for a minute. Right?

Yeah.

Let's do it together as a means of expanding our awe and wonder of God. How many jobs can you think of that are helping make this podcast recording happen? Go.

Oh, well. But can I change the game? You play that game. You play that game and I'll play. Because we own an. Operate a coffee house in Capitol Hill.

Yes.

Let me play the coffee game because. So you have farmers somewhere halfway around the world who basically farm. And. And there's Someone had to harvest them, and then someone had to package them and ship them. And so you've got shipping containers and the people who are in the transportation business. And then by the time you get here, then you need roasters, and you need people that just love the coffee craft. And then eventually it's going to get into the hands of that barista, and then they're going to pull that shot, maybe even do a nice little design on top of the cup. But there are hundreds of people whose jobs were necessary to get that bean to that roaster, to that coffee shop for me to take that first sip of that latte. So that's a good example.

Yeah. And somebody had to build the roads. Somebody had to build the GPS inside of the cars for navigation and the satellites to. Were you the one who told me about this book? Thanks a thousand.

That's it. Yep. Yes, it is. And that's what I'm referencing. So, yeah, even like, someone had to build the grind. Oh. And then there are marketers involved in marketing it and a sales team. You know, it's the whole nine yards that. So, Jordan. And what you're getting at is almost the premise of the book. Nothing is as simple as it seems. Everything is more miraculous than we can imagine.

Yes. And I think work can be one of those places. And I. I would just encourage our listeners anytime you thank God for anything. Coffee, your meal, safe travels on the subway to work this morning. Whatever, man. This is just a really fun way to turn on the wonder switch. Think about all the jobs God is using to deliver that extraordinary gift. And, oh, by the way, it's also a great way to see the sacredness of those seemingly secular jobs, which is what we talk about so much on the show. Speaking of fun, you talk a lot about play in this book, which I loved you wrote, to become like Christ is to become like a little child, and to become like a little child is to recapture the sacredness of play. End quote. Tell us more about what you mean by that and how you personally play.

Yeah, so read Psalm 104 and it says, God made the Leviathan to frolic. And the Hebrew word there can be to play or to sport. But I remember the first time I read it and really thought about it. I'm like, wait, so you're telling me. And it might be a whale, it could be a walrus, it could be a porpoise. Pick your. Your favorite sea creature. But God made them to play. And if you watch them in their natural habitat, that's what they do. So Sir Francis Bacon called us God's playfellows, which is such a beautiful depiction. I just think the capacity for play is something that God created within us. And by the way, I think the workplace should have a little bit of that element, that there's a way have a little bit more fun doing what we're doing. We always ask our employees at the end of the year, our 360review, how much do you enjoy your job? And that's the number one question I look at, because I think if you enjoy your job, you're going to have a much higher likelihood of doing a good job at a job you enjoy.

All right, so, hey, hang on. Go a layer deeper here. You lead a pretty big organization at National Community Church. What have you done within the organization to make that job more playful and fun?

Yeah, well, we begin every staff meeting by sharing wins. So let's start with positive energy, creative energy, and encourage one another. A lot of that is just like, hey, thanks to this person for going the extra mile or that project or that, you know, and we, we have lots of different teams that do lots of different things. But like this last week, it was our facilities team that probably got the most wins because we got a little bit of snow. And so they're pulling, you know, double duty, salting and plowing and doing what they do. And then you Know, our creative team creating a lot of collateral. A new trailer for a sermon series. So it's just. It's about, I think, keeping a positive atmosphere. But then one other thing I'll throw in. We do an annual play and pray retreat. And we do exactly that. We pray and we play. And some people think the praying is more spiritual than the playing. But the reality is I. I think both put a smile on God's face, like, as a father, and by the way, now a new grandfather, you know, with a grandson. Like, it just puts a smile on my face when I see our little grandson starting to play. And. And every parent knows that you love it. Whether it's playing an instrument or playing sports, like. Or playing Legos. Like, we love it when our kids are playing. What makes us think that God is any different? I think God made us with a playful spirit. And I think a true reflection of who God is is he has this playful quality to him. I think we don't want to forget that. We want to make sure that the workplace has a. Has some fun sprinkled into it. I think that's pretty critical.

Make the case that God is playful. I think about. There's a verse in Job where it says that God makes it rain in a desert land. Why would he do that? Like, there's no purpose. Like making it rain in the middle of nowhere where there's no people, as it says in Job.

Right.

Like, that just like, sounds fun. But, like, make the case that God is playful and that we, as we play, do a better job of bearing his image.

Okay, I'll just come at it from one angle. The medial ventral prefrontal cortex is the part of the brain that allows us to juxtapose things. Things and find them funny. And I would argue that loving God with all of your mind includes the media ventral prefrontal cortex. They're part of what the image of God is, are those things that separate us from the rest of the animal kingdom. So, sure, squirrels have hoarding techniques, but they don't imagine skyscrapers or landing a mat on the moon. They don't paint things, so imagination would be an example. But I would argue that laughter is part of the image of God. And laughter doeth good like a medicine. And we tend to laugh when we play. And so those two things go hand in hand. So I think even the fact that God told Abraham and Sarah, why don't you name him Laughter? Now, in English, we read it as Isaac, but this is a God who wants to give us our laugh. Back. In fact, I think it's 400 laughs per day as little kids and then 20 laughs as adults. And so we lose about 380 laughs. And part of growing spiritually, I think, is getting some of that back. And so part of the book is just, hey, can we wake up that inner child, flip that wonder switch, rediscover the joy that's available to us, really, with some of the simple pleasures, some of the things that just enable us to find things funny. And Jordan, you know as well as I do, I would say this to our team all the time, like, ministry is too hard not to laugh if you don't have a sense of humor. In fact, we gauge sense of humor whenever I interview anyone right at the top of the list. If you can't laugh at my jokes, we can't work together. I need to know that you're able to not take yourself too seriously. And so I think that's a reflection of how God created us.

And because of that, I do think play is intrinsically good, intrinsically valuable. But I've also heard some really strong cases, and I've experienced this a bit in my life, that there is a connection between play and the strengthening of work and play enabling us to do better work. Have you experienced that in your life? And if so, try to. Try to connect the dots for us in articulating that.

No doubt. And there's a couple of directions we could go with this, but change of pace plus change of place equals change of perspective. And so if all we do is go to work, do the same thing over and over again, it becomes routine. There's something called the law of requisite variety that you have to change the routine a little bit. And one way to do that is, is just to. To get people out of a. Maybe left brainers, out of a left brain mindset, and do a right brain exercise or vice versa. But sometimes, you know, a creative exercise or even like an icebreaker kind of question round just to get people thinking differently. You know, I think both of us kind of geek out on aesthetics and the fact that, for example, 12 chapters in the book of Exodus are devoted to the aesthetics of the tabernacle. The color of the curtains, the exact ingredients in the incense. By the way, my personal favorite, and I allude to this in the book Exodus 26:14. And the Hebrew is muddy. It's tricky. It gets interpreted different ways, but God tells them to put dolphin skins on top of the tabernacle. It sounds weird, but according to the Talmud, the Jewish commentary on the old testamen. There were dolphins who died when the Red Sea was split. And we do know, by the way, we know that there are dolphins and porpoises in the Red Sea. We think of it as like a. A crick? No, this was a major body of water. And so they were told to hang those skins in the ceiling. Almost think Sistine Chapel of the Tabernacle. Why? Because God wanted them to be able to look up, see those dolphin skins, and remind themselves, oh, this is the God who can make a sidewalk through the sea. And so what we need to do is create environments and atmospheres that help us dream bigger, pray harder, think longer. And now I can't even remember the original question. How do we end up with dolphin skins?

Because you're hitting on something I've been thinking about even more, thinking about a lot lately. These physical objects around me that remind me of God's faithfulness, of his grace, of what he has already done in my life and work to, number one, cultivate a heart of contentment, and number two, expand my vision for what God is able to do in and through his willing servants as I do my work. So, for example, for me, you're looking at my camera right now. Right behind me are these books that I published, right? So when I'm looking in front of this camera, at this laptop, and I focus on the next book, right? I can look back and remember, hey, if I never sell another book again, God's already be good. I don't deserve it. I don't deserve any of that. I certainly don't deserve anything that's coming next. And so I could be more content. So for you, what are the dolphin skins in your life, right? Like, what are the physical memorials of God's grace that are expanding your vision for your work in your life?

I love it. And this, to me, feels like the challenge, the exhortation for everybody listening. I bet there are a lot of creatives who are even more intentional than us in terms of their. Their workspace or their home space. But right behind my desk, I have my personal Mount Rushmore four pictures. Albert Einstein, George Washington Carver, Teddy Roosevelt, John Muir. Four people that have inspired me in one way or the other. And we won't deep dive that. You know, I could tell you the backst each one and why. They're kind of my. My Mount Rushmore. So they sit behind me every day. And then I've got a latitude and longitude map of the cow pasture in Alexandria, Minnesota, where I felt called to ministry when I was 19. You know, even over my shoulder, I see a liquor bottle that we found in the crack house that is now Ebenezer's Coffee house. I've got my grandfather's Bible. I've got kind of spiritual mementos that are reminders of God's faithfulness. So, you know, even in our office hallway, there's a picture of the 43 people that were at our first Easter in 1996. And right on the other side of the hallway is the Easter sunrise at the Lincoln Memorial that has about 10,000 people that we have the joy of hosting. I like being in an atmosphere that constantly reminded of, look at what the Lord has done. And so it sounds like we do the same thing. Can I, Jordan, I'll put you on the spot. Who would be one or two people that would be on your Mount Rushmore if you put pictures behind you, man, it's really good.

Fred Rogers would be up there.

Yeah, yeah, probably C.S.

Lewis, now the founder of Lego, who I've had the joy of writing this little biography about that we're going to be releasing really soon.

Yes.

Stay tuned for that. Yeah, those are three big ones. Carver is a great name. I love George Washington Carver story, man. I don't know. I gotta sit with that. Tell me. All right, tell me more about the Mount Rushmore thing. What are the benefits to you of having those faces on the wall sitting behind you as you work?

Yeah, well, and I got the idea from Eugene Peterson, who had three pictures in his study.

Yeah, I think you said that before.

I thought, I'm gonna. I'm gonna do that. So let's pick on. On George Washington Carver, the first former slave to attend Iowa State became a faculty member. But what I love about Carver, and of course he's famous for 300 uses of the peanut. But the backstory is he saved the agricultural economy of the south with crop rotation. But when they planted peanuts, there was no market for it, so he started innovating all these ways that peanuts could be used. Long story short, though his life verse was job 12, 7 and 8, speak to the earth and it will teach you. And so he would get up at 4 o' clock in the morning and he would take prayer walks through the woods. And so one of the greatest chemists, agronomist scientists, his secret was prayer walks through the woods. I just. I love that. And then God began to reveal some of those secrets to him. So when I have his picture kind of looking over my shoulder, it's just. It's a reminder me kind of keep Walking and praying. Keep seeking, keep learning. Holy curiosity. Never lose a holy curiosity. And. And that really is why Einstein sits behind me, because that's a. That's something he said. Page 755 of a biography I read when I was 21 that changed my life. So that's tip of the iceberg.

But they're prompts of soundtracks and, and takeaways from their lives that help you be more faithful in the work.

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, and Teddy Roosevelt, he used to keep heads of state waiting so he could finish up a game of hide and seek in the West Wing with his kids, so. Oh, and he read 500 books a year as president. Yeah.

Which is hard to believe.

Well, it's hard to believe. Yep. But minus television.

I know, I know, I know.

Podcast, minus social media, you have a lot of time on your hands.

People ask me all the time, how do you read so much? I'm like, I don't consume any other media, like, other than 20 minutes of TV at night. I don't listen to podcasts. I never spend time personally on social media. I'm like, like, you read a whole lot more books if you free up that time. All right, Mark. We wrap up every conversation the same way. Four questions we. I ask every guest. Number one, look ahead to Isaiah 65, when it says that God's chosen people will long enjoy the work of their hands on the new Earth, free from the curse of sin. Mind boggling. What do you want to spend billions of years doing in service of Jesus, the king on the new Earth?

You know, I love combining 26 letters of the English Alphabet, and that's how I worship God. So, you know, I would like to think that. And I have no doubt that creativity will continue on the other side of the space time continuum. But maybe with a glorified body, I can learn to paint and maybe be a little bit more artistic in that way. But I love anything that's good. Creating something new or combining things. So I think that's probably a piece of my puzzle.

Yeah, I think that's eternal. Right? I think you're going to be doing that forever and ever and ever, I think. Hey, I hate asking, like, most influential books. That's too hard. If we open up your Amazon order history, which book would we see you buying the most over and over again to give away?

Yeah, it might be, you know, AW Tozer would probably be the most influential writer, you know, and that's where I would say CS Lewis warned against chronological snobbery. He said, if you only read new books. You're going to be a slave to the spirit of the age. So he said, in between new books, read old books. So, you know, the knowledge of the holy, the pursuit of God. Those books had a formative impact on my life. And then, then lately, you know, besides your books, Jordan, I like. I like an Adam Grant or a Malcolm G.L. gladwell. I kind of like the way that they think and cross pollinate.

Yeah, yeah, you're very Gladwell esque, very story driven, tons of research, super accessible.

Well, that's where I like connecting dots in different ways. Gladwell's so good at it. You know, he sets the bar. But if you believe that every ology is a branch of theology, then what you're going to do is you're going to draw, draw from all of these different things and somehow you have a greater appreciation when. When you do that. Yeah, that's right.

That's right. I love it. Hey, who would you want to hear on this podcast talking about how the Christian faith shapes the work they're doing.

In the world instead of the. The usual suspects?

We try not to have the usual suspects. Yeah, you're a rare exception to that.

Yep. So we've got a psychiatrist local, but he's also an author, Dr. Kurt Thompson.

I love Dr. Kurt Thompson. I talked to him last week.

You did?

Yeah.

So he's spoken at ncc. He'll speak again. I like the way he thinks.

I like the way.

The way that he brings psychology and theology together. So I think he's someone. Give me a little bit more. Kurt Thompson.

That's.

I.

That's a great answer. All right, Mark, you're talking to this global audience of mere Christians who do a lot of different things vocationally. What they share is a desire to do their work for the glory of God and the good of others. What's one thing you want to reiterate or say afresh to those listeners before we sign off?

Well, I think when we talk about surrendering our lives to the lordship of Christ, I think that means time, talent, treasure, past, present, future, heart, soul, mind and strength. I think it's an all in kind of thing. Now, I will say on that count, I think there are a lot of people who think they're following Jesus, but they've invited Jesus to follow them, which is a different deal. That's an inverted relationship. So what I would encourage is just, I think the anointings for everybody. You know, as a pastor before I get in the pulpit, or as a writer before I, you know, pen to paper, so to speak, I'm like, lord, I pray for your anointing. But you know what, when I do NFL chapels, I'm praying the same thing with those professional athletes when, when we do a conference for entrepreneurs or artists. Same thing. Like the anointing's for everybody. And I think the anointing is, is kind of this, it's ability beyond my ability. And it's the Holy Spirit helping me think better thoughts, giving me the strength that's beyond my normal capacity. So, you know, my prayer for everybody listening is just to step into an even greater anointing. Let God help you do what you do. Whether you teach children in a classroom or you make decisions in a boardroom or you game plan in a locker room, whatever it is, I have no doubt that God wants to anoint you to do what you do.

It's good, really good. Mark, I want to commend you, brother, for the extraordinary work you do for the glory of God and the good of others. For helping us to expand our awe of God as we work and as we play, and for reminding us of how God works through the miracle of ordinary work. Friends, Mark's latest book is called A Million Little Miracles. I highly recommend it. Mark, thanks for hanging with us today.

Hey, joy and privilege. Thanks, Jordan.

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