Mark Batterson (Author of Please, Sorry, Thanks)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back.

Guarantee on this book.

I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why?

Two reasons.

One, this is a different book for me, right. I know this is a very different biography. What is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right?

So that's the first reason this is.

A risk and I'm gonna de risk.

This book for you.

Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended.

End quote. But here's the thing.

In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on 5 mereChristians. Calm and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5merechristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Mere Christians podcast.

Hi, I'm Jordan Raynor.

How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians?

Those of us who aren't pastors or.

Religious professionals, but who work as food.

Scientists, executive assistants, and railroad conductors.

That's the question we explore every week.

And today I'm posing it to my friend Mark Batterson.

He's the founding pastor of National Community.

Church in Washington, D.C. and the author of some mammoth best selling books like the Circle Maker in a Pit with.

A Lion on a Snowy Day and Win the Day. Mark and I sat down for the second time on this show to talk about his newest book, please. Sorry.

Thanks.

We talked about the best please Mark.

Has ever received to speak at an event and how you can mimic that type of please.

We talked about how an intern once confronted Mark. Mark with some radical but loving candor. And we talked about why it's so.

Dangerous to treat the Great Commission as the only commission that mere Christians are called to.

Trust me, you're not going to want.

To miss this great episode with Mark Batterson. Mark Batterson, my friend, welcome back to the podcast.

Hey, great to be back with you, Jordan. Here we go.

Hey, I learned something new about you in this new book that I don't.

Think I'd ever read before.

Your first job at a gas station. How old were you? What were you doing?

Oh, you know, it. I was probably. I might have been 17. And let me tell you what, I didn't pump the gas, okay? It wasn't a full.

You're not that old.

No, I'm not. I'm not that old. I grew up watching Andy Griffith and Gomer Pilot the gas station, but I wore a beautiful brown uniform. Quick fill gas station. And I pulled in the big bucks. I think we were at 5, 25 an hour back in the day. Yeah. You know what though, Jordan? Hard jobs make you appreciate dream jobs. And I'll tell you this, I never encounter anybody that has a job that I'm guessing is not their dream job without tremendous respect for them. I, I have this like, foundational respect for people who, you know what, it's. What they do is hard, but if they didn't do what they do, you know, we wouldn't be able to do what we do. So I just. Yeah, that's more than you're asking for, but no, it's not.

That's exactly what I was asking for. I love that answer.

And George, let me flip it. Did you have any jobs? Because by the way, along with working at a gas station one summer, I was a ditch digger. Now we called ourselves dirt relocation engineers. That's how we fondly referred to ourselves, as a little bit of reframing. And then I did when I was in Grad school, I managed a storage facility. So let me tell you, I started climbing the ladder. I love and appreciate those early jobs and makes me appreciate what I get to do now.

Yeah, I love it. I had some great hard jobs early on. I worked in a call center for a little bit one summer, which is brutal. Brutal.

I did some direct marketing. I was selling really softball videos to church bookstores. I'm not even kidding you. If you can sell those videos to church bookstore, you can do about anything. Yep.

That's why you're such a good marketer. You to sell. Sell softball videos to church bookstores. I love this so much. Hey, look at this segue. Watch this. Speaking of church bookstores, you just released a new book. You see how, you see how smooth that was? Hey, tell us what this new book, Please Sorry, thanks is all about.

Please Sorry. Thanks. Three words that change everything. You know, I really do think if you're good at these three words, Jordan, you're good to go in marriage, in the workpl place, even spiritually. Like, nothing opens doors like please nothing. Men's fences like sorry, Nothing builds bridges like thanks. I call me old fashioned. And it is a little bit of that. When friends and influence people. I'm sure we'll get into some of the psychology of Please. The sciences, sorry. And the theology of thanks. But I think these are three predictors. Way beyond title or rank or or resume. People who are good at these three words, Jordan, you can't stop them. These three words take the ceiling off. And the people that I love to work with, the people that I will follow, are people who are good at these three words.

I love that you brought up Carnegie how to win Friends and influence People. Man, I can tell you this because you're a friend. When I first saw this title come out, my first thought was, what is Mark doing? He is way too smart to be writing something so simplistic. And then my close second thought was, this is Mark Batterson and there's a zero percent chance that this book isn't great. And sure enough, I'll be honest with you, I was blown away. I think I highlighted more in this book than any other book you've written so far. I was so impressed by the anecdotes and the science and the one liners that you breeze past that could have easily been turned into full books. I loved it. I loved it. Hey, I emailed you. I emailed you a couple weeks ago and I asked you how you decide what to write next and I loved your response. I hope you don't mind me sharing it? It was basically like, hey, I write what's white hot in my spirit. Right? Like, I, when I'm writing something, you said, it's like, this is the most important book I've ever written.

Why was this topic so important to.

You at this particular time?

Yeah, I mean, you wouldn't think it's life or death, right? But the truth is there are such low levels of civility in culture right now, and I think there's a lot of people who have just forgotten how to say please, sorry, and thanks. And it's both an art and a science. And so you said something just a minute ago that made me think of Oliver Wendell Holmes, who's one of my, my favorite people, to quote, you know, former, I think, Chief justice of the Supreme Court, who, by the way, said, a mind stretched by a new idea never returns to its original shape, which is one of my all time favorite quotes. But he also said that there are two kinds of simplicity. There's simplicity on the near side of complexity, and we would call that ignorance. But then there's simplicity on the far side of complexity. And honestly, Jordan, I think that's brilliant. So, like, to me, let's not overcomplicate this. Like, it really does come back to basics. And I don't care if you play professional basketball and you're working on ball handling drills, or you're a salesperson, or you're a barista that's pulling shots of espresso. Like, just being really good at the base. Basics is going to be the springboard to whatever it is that you do.

I love that so much. All right, let's get to work applying this book to the mere Christians who are listening. And we might bounce around a lot because you do cover a lot of ground, a lot of highly relevant topics in this book. But. But let's start here. You recommended. I love this. You recommended, in the book that our listeners add a hyphen to their occupation.

You argue that they're not just doctors.

Not just teachers, not just baristas, but they're doctor prophets.

Teacher hyphen prophets, barista hyphen prophets.

What in the world do you mean by this?

And I might add uber prophets. You know, people who drive their Uber around. So I think what I mean by that is, you know, this is something that Moses said. And he said, I wish that all the Lord's people were prophets. I think it's numbers 11, if I remember right. And it's this idea that. And I don't Want to over spiritualize this. But Jordan, we track together and I'm, I'm guessing people who are listening can interpret this like, you're the only Bible that some people will ever read and you're the only church that some people will ever attend. And so whatever it is you do Monday to Friday, like let's do it. Well, you know, since we're on the spot, the subject of favorite quotes Dorothy Sayers said, I dare say no ill fitted drawers or crooked table legs ever came out of the carpenter's shop in Nazareth. Like drop the mic, Dorothy Sayers. Like, that is an all time favorite. I think doing what we do with excellence is one way that we glorify God. And that's like, you know, and maybe this is because we own and operate a coffee house on Capitol Hill. But you know, know it's not just pulling shots, but it's man, it's loving people who come in and they need a little bit of caffeine. But you can make their day. You can just do what you do and give them the drink or it's service with a smile and you can try to make someone's day. So I just, I really think we, we need a rising tide of please, sorry and thanks. And then maybe we'll, we'll talk about this. You have to personalize your please, you have to signature. You're sorry, you have to thumbprint your thanks. In other words, how does Jordan say thanks and how does Mark say thanks? But then how do I say thanks? Like, what does that look like? I just was talking with Bob Goff, whose name I think a lot of people will recognize. I love the way Bob Goff says goodbye. He runs down the dock. He's got a lodge in Canada. He runs down the dock waving and then just jumps in the water while waving Jordan. Like, who does that? Well, I mean, Bob Goff does that. That's kind of his signature goodbye. But that's what I'm talking about. How do we personalize this 100%?

And that's going to look different if you're a barista or a teacher or a Dr. Prophet, right? The way you do that work is going to preach something different. And the way you use your words are going to preach something different. You quoted this Jewish sage, Akilah. The translator is saying, quote, the tongue is a tool, having a knife at one end and a spoon at the other end. Quote.

I love that.

The power to give life, the power to take life. What habits do you have, Mark, that ensure that you're Speaking life giving words, especially amongst the people that you, you work with. Monday through. I don't know what your work days are as a pastor, but you get what I mean.

Yeah, I mean I do ask myself the question, would I say this about this person if they were right here? That puts a filter on my words that I want to be very careful because we've tried to create a culture here where not only do we try to celebrate what we want to see more of, we try to brag about people behind their back, we want to fill the gas with positive assumptions, we want to catch people doing things right. We start every meeting by sharing wins. And there's this idea that the same word that's used for grace is a word that by the way can translate charisma, which is kind of interesting. But there's this verse in Ephesians 4 that says basically let your words be gifts. And so I often wonder because Jordan, I bet there are people who just with a single sentence change the trajectory of your life. I know people have mine.

Yeah, give us an example of that.

Well, I mean, I remember as a teenager I was at church at an altar and a missionary was there and he was praying for me. And then his prayer turned prophetic. And I think it's only 10 words, but he said, God is going to use you in a great way. And that moment got locked in my mind, Jordan. It was a very fragile time. You know, I just like, what am I going to do? What is my life about? And just that single sentence was a game changer for me. So let's recognize that our words literally have the power to change destinies. I mean King Solomon said the power of life and death is in the tongue. And I would add the power of blessing and cursing that sometimes careless words can scar us, but life giving words can then set us free. So you know, be careful little ears, what you hear, be careful little mouth, what you say. Like we've got to be good stewards of our words, but it doesn't mean.

That we only utter words that will tickle the ears of our, our co workers. You got at this in the book a little bit, right? You talked about the need for how.

Radical candor can be life giving words.

Can you define that term for us? Radical candor and how it can be a life giving thing?

Yeah, I mean there's a brilliant book by that title. I bet you've read it. I've read it. It's this idea of caring personally while confronting directly. But I mean, let's Be honest. It really goes back to John 1. Jesus was full of grace and truth. Grace means I'll forgive you no matter what. Truth means I'll be honest with you no matter what. And so the way I see it, Jordan, is grace minus truth is weak sauce. Truth minus grace is hot sauce. But grace plus truth really is secret sauce, that it's being full of grace, full of truth. And when we relate to people that way, then relationships take on a depth, but they also take on a breadth. And I think grace and truth are the foundation for any and every healthy and holy relationship.

So this is so good. I love that you use the secret sauce line because I love that in the book so much. Give us an example. Don't use names. Take out, you know, sensitive details.

But can you share an example of.

What this looks like with somebody on your team at National Community Church, where you deliver truth you confronted directly.

Right.

But you did in gracious way, caring for them personally make this three dimensional for us.

Yeah, I mean, I remember years ago when an internal, an intern confronted me and said, hey, I think, and I'll be honest, Jordan, I think he said, I just sense that there's some pride behind what you're saying. And I couldn't believe it. And at first, you know, we all get defensive. You know, we confirming.

Confirming the pride, right?

Yes, exactly. But I remember thinking, you know what, he's right. Here's what I was doing, Jordan. And it's the classic mistake. We think we have to put others down to build ourselves up. And I was not talking positively about some other churches. And I just made a decision at that point. You know what, I'm not going to play the game that way. I'm going to speak words of honor and respect towards others and, and I'll just share. I have two rules of life that kind of have to do with this, this question. And, and I bet they'll be helpful to other people. One, everyone is my superior in some way and that I learn of them. So I always want to approach people as I have something to learn from you. And then the second one is, everyone's fighting a battle I know nothing about. So make maybe, just maybe, I ought to have an extra measure of grace towards the people in my life. Jordan. I've learned that when people overreact to situations, they're not reacting to me, they're reacting to their past tense pain. And if I can be patient enough and loving enough, I might discover what's causing that, trigger what's causing that trauma. And we might be able to actually build a more meaningful, deeper relationship if I don't just react to their reaction. But you and I both know it's. It's awfully hard not to react to reactions. But to me, I'll stop preaching right after this that, you know, this is the sermon on the mount. Turn the other cheek, in other words, like don't react. You have to do what's counterintuitive and turn the other cheek. And maybe, just maybe, you'll learn something about that person that might be the beginning of a deeper and more meaningful relationship.

Yeah, I think this framework when it comes to radical candor is really helpful. Caring, personally, confronting directly.

Because that is true love. Right?

True love doesn't gloss over, you know, real issues at work. I think of Proverbs 27:5, better is open rebuke than hidden love. That's the contrast, open rebuke and hidden love. But being radically candid, you know, this is far from the only way we Christ followers can show love in the workplace. You talked about another one in the book that I loved is there you are posture amongst those that we engage with. This is related to one of your two rules of life. Can you explain what you mean by that term, how you came upon it, what it means for us?

Yeah, I have a 80 year old mentor, spiritual father, a guy named Dick Folk says there are two kinds of people in the world. Here I am and there you are. Now the here I am person walks into a room and it's kind of about them. Their ego barely fits through the door. And let's be honest, people who are trying to impress other people are unimpressive. People who aren't trying to impress anybody are really impressive. And that then brings up that second kind of person. There you are. And you know, Jordan, we've both been in some green rooms. I pay attention to the way people treat people and I always want to be the person that's about others. Like, how can I add value to your life? If it's not a win for you, it's not a win for me. This is not about, you know, my way or the highway. This is about, I genuinely want to learn from you. And if I help you, guess what? I'm really helping myself in the process. So it's about an approach to other people. And the world would be a lot better place if there were a lot more there you are people.

Yeah, but I think it's so impressive to find a there you are person because it's so crazy rare. Right?

I think in this current cultural moment when the world defines worth largely by professional accomplishments. Yeah, I think that temptation to be a here I am person when you enter the room is really, really powerful.

Right.

We've like, man, I've got to be that if I want to get the promotion or if I want to get the speaking engagement, whatever it is.

So how can Christ followers who are.

Listening make that leap if they feel like, you know what, if I'm honest, I'm a here I am person, how do they make that leap to becoming a there you are person?

Well, it might take a pernican revolution that the world doesn't revolve around you. News flash. I think you quickly discover that when you try to knock down doors, people just reinforce keeping you out. But if you learn to knock and knock nicely. Can I just share a fun story? Let's interrupt this regularly scheduled podcast with a fun story. So, you know, I talk a little bit in the book about personalizing your pleas. So I tell a story about John Rulin wrote a book called Giftology. And so he tells about trying to get a meeting with a target executive. And for 18 months, like trying to get a meeting, nothing's working. Then he does some research and he discovers this, this target executive graduate of University of Minnesota. And so here's what he does. He commissions a furniture company to take a 60 pound piece of cherry wood and emblazone the golden gopher logo along with the words to the University of Minnesota fight song. I think it was. And guess what happened next day, after getting the gift, that executive's executive assistant calls and says, hey, can we meet? Well, this is not rocket science. Like, a gift opens the way for the giver. Now, word of caution, buyer beware if your motives aren't pure, and I really mean this, if you're trying to manipulate, it will backfire. It will blow up in your face. But if you're genuinely trying to show honor, trying to show people like you matter. And I appreciate your unique fingerprint, like watch the doors fly open. So one of the things I'm hoping for is that as people read the book like that they find a way to put their fingerprint on these three words. And I'm kind of curious, Jordan, as I share that story story, can you think of an example or even from your own life of anybody that had like a really unique. Please, sorry. And thanks. Is there anybody that kind of. I know I'm flipping the question, but I'm curious.

I love that you do this. We did this so much when we Recorded the Redeem the Day podcast. I would just, like, I would just be interviewing Mark. And you just keep coming back like, hey, let me ask you that question. Let me just flip this on you. Even though you're unprepared and. But you know what?

You know what I love about it?

You. You're genuinely interested. Like, I know that. Like, I know this isn't like you just trying to run out the clock on our interview. Like, you're genuinely interested in me because you believe you got something to learn from everyone that you interact with, which is like the mark of world class masters. All right, somebody who's giving me a really good personal please or thanks, you'll appreciate this. As a fellow writer, I'm sure you get asked to endorse way more books.

Than I do, but I get asked.

To endorse a lot of books.

Right.

And I remember one in particular that really stood out. This guy created like a whole custom landing page. I can't remember the guy's name. It was like author name.com jordanrayner and there was a personalized video right there.

Like, it just made clear he wanted.

My endorsement, not everybody's. He's like, hey, Jordan, welcome to this landing page. Below you'll find a draft of the book.

Here's why I want you to endorse it.

You.

Here are the sections.

I think you're gonna like the book. And I loved it and I endorsed the book and it was a big deal.

Yeah, just the extra mile, right? You know, one of the. That just jogs my memory. One of the funnest and funniest invitations I've ever gotten to speak. And, you know, I only do seven overnight speaking trips a year at this point because I just, I want to be on the home front. I pastor a church. I, I just don't have the bandwidth. I'll never forget this. Jeanne Mayo invited me to come speak at a conference for youth pastors, which, that's a little. I was never, I was never a youth pastor. It's a little out of my comfort zone. I probably would have said, no, you're going to chuckle at this. She sent a full size cardboard cutout of me. And our team had so much fun with that. We thought it was so funny. They probably turned it into a dart board, you know, behind my back. But I just think, like, okay, like, if you're going to actually go to all that trouble to make a life size cardboard cutout, I'm going to say yes to that one. So I do think that there's something about this in. In business, in relationships, even in romantic relationships. It just shows thoughtfulness.

It shows dignity for the other person.

Right. It's showing.

Hey, you're not a number or an email address. You're human. Human being, and I care about you. And you yourself have dignity. And I'm naming that.

You know what I mean?

Hey, real quick, let's round out this topic on please. You talked about these, like, three marks of a truly effective please in the book. Can you run those down real quick?

You're gonna laugh at me. I might need help with the three, but I know one of them is precise.

That's okay. Precise, man. I don't have the book up in front of me, so I don't know.

You know, I think one was precise. I think one was timely, if I'm remembering this correctly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Timing is everything. You asked the. The right thing at the wrong time. Good luck with that.

And I think the other one was.

Personal, which we already touched on.

You remember it was personalized. So you know the drill. You write the book, you do four edits, you record it, and then you don't remember everything. But no, you're right. So the. The precise. That part of it, I think is critical that people don't respond on to generalized requests. You have to give a time and a date. You have to isolate the request. And I actually referenced Daniel as an example of this, as in Daniel in the lion's den that, you know, he didn't want to eat the king's food, wanted to eat his Jewish diet and a kosher diet. And it's really genius. Like, we read right over it. But one, he does say please. And then two, he says, let's do it for 10 days. In other words, let's give it a timeline. And then three, here's exactly what we're gonna eat then. This is brilliant, because please is putting the ball in someone else's court. Then he says, then you be the judge at the end of those 10 days. And so, yeah, precise, timely, personal. That's how we gotta say please.

I love it. Hey, shifting gears a little bit. I want to offer some theological encouragement to the mere Christians listening. One of my favorite lines in the book, you said, quote, we need to be great at the Great Commission, but let's not forget our Genesis Commission. I'm inviting you to preach here. Explain what you mean by that, Mark.

Yeah, it's this idea that we were never going to stay in the Garden of Eden anyways. Like God said, go and explore and discover. And did you know Sir Francis Bacon, who is the credited with the scientific method, by the way, he said that we are God's playfellows, that God created these things for us to discover. And so I, I think whether you're an astronomer who studies the stars or a neurologist who's fascinated by the 40 nanometer gap between synapses, or you're a chemist who's just, you know, all about the periodic table and combining different elements, all of that. To me, all truth is God's truth. Every ology is a branch of theology. So to me, all of these are spiritual exercises that let's not under spiritualize what it is that we, we do. And the truth is whatever you do, do it all to the glory of God. So it's, you know, Dr. King said if, you know, if you're a street sweeper, you know, I think he said do it like Beethoven wrote music. Do it so that the angels in heaven will say there lived a great street sweeper. So whatever it is you do, those who are listening, whatever it is you do, how can you do it in a way that's just a little above, above and beyond, a little extra mile, a little extra energy? And Jordan, dare I say, why not exercise the 42 facial muscles and the seventh cranial nerve and smile like your smile is a superpower. In fact, this will be fun. You tell me if you do the same thing. When I record an audiobook, I smile and I do it intentionally. I do, because no one's gonna see it. Oh, but they'll hear it. Like there's something about, like when you say it with a smile. There's this law of reciprocation that it says that I'm open minded and open hearted and I am conveying goodwill to those who are listening. So have you ever thought about that?

But I did once I read the book and I'm going to be smiling the next time I do an audiobook. Hey, let me just. I just got to say this. I appreciated so much you bringing up this Great Commission, Genesis Commission, contrast. Because I think, listen, nobody's arguing this Great Commission is a non optional command for every follower of Jesus, Period, Full stop. But I would argue in the last 200 years or so in church history, many strands of Christianity have functionally treated the Great Commission as the only commission to the neglect of the Genesis Commission.

I think that's really problematic because if.

There is no intrinsic value in those vocations that you just shared mark of being an astronomer or being a Barista at Ebenezer Coffee Shop.

But the only thing that matters is.

Sharing the gospel with my co workers.

Then that mere Christian isn't fully alive because they believe that it's only 1%.

Of the time they spend at work that they explicitly share the gospel. That's all that matters to God. Right.

But when you can say, no, no, no, no, no, a hundred percent of that time matters, these people, these mere.

Christians become fully alive. And that's.

Yeah. What attracts lost.

Amen.

Yes. And Jordan, if that's not true, then Jesus wasted 30 years of his life. I mean, I had actually never thought about that until this moment. So I reserve the right to get smarter later. But no, I mean, he was a craftsman. Most of his. He was only in quote unquote, full time ministry for three years. But I think we tend to discount the years he had. But you know what? I don't think he would have wordsmith words called parables if he hadn't crafted furniture. I think there's something about that holistic approach that it's in all of life. And we have way too many false dichotomies between sacred and secular.

Oh man. Hey, so speaking of false dichotomies, there were a few lines in this book, I mentioned this before where you just like, you deliver the line and then you move on and I'm screaming at the book saying, mark, this could be an entire book. And one of them was the short line you said, quote, quote, truth is found in the tension of opposites. End quote. Right. So true. What's an example of one of those.

Tension of opposites that you think is.

Particularly relevant to the Christian professionals listening to this podcast?

Oh man. So you know, this is job 116 says true wisdom has two sides. So, you know, I think both you and I believe we're like way too binary. Either or. Right. Wrong. Black, white, whatever. I think that truth is a little bit more complex than that. So I'll give you an example. Just theologically, like, I, I believe in the sovereignty of God and I also believe in the free will of man. So it's almost like what happens when the unstoppable bullet hits the impenetrable wall? What happens then? Well, I would say it's past my pay grade, but in my experience we tend to think it's got to be A or B. And Jesus comes along and often says it's c. And John 9 is a great example. Man born blind. You know, the disciples say, who sinned? His parents or him? And they think it's Got to be A or B. And Jesus said this happened, that the glory of God might be revealed. The way I would say it, Jordan, is God is always writing a bigger story. God is always writing a better, better story. And when we fall into very dualistic kind of thinking, it's dangerous because then then there's kind of in group out group, and it almost gets into. I mean, I feel like maybe the most important part of the book was this common enemy or common humanity part that, you know, we start putting people in categories and then we just write them off. But I think there's a very different approach that's really important. But now I'm kind of going off on a rabbit trail. So.

No, this is good. I want you to write this book. I think a phenomenal book would be exploring some of those tensions that Christians are not meant to decimate, but to hold, right? To keep the tension, to wrestle with attention. Like you mentioned, the sovereignty of God and the freedom of man. It reminds me of a tension I think about a lot for. For mere Christians, this tension between trusting.

God, who we know produces all of.

The results in our work. See Deuteronomy 8. But also the God given command to hustle and work hard as under the Lord. There's a tension there, right, that we're meant to hold. And so, man, I. I think there could be a really great book in there. Hey, speaking of great books, I also love your new children's book, the Best Worst Day, which you wrote with your daughter, right?

Yeah.

Tell us about this book.

That just puts a smile on my face because I. I can hear it.

I can hear the smile.

I've read bedtime storybooks when summer was just a little girl. And by the way, I used to say to her, if all the little girls in the world were lined up and I could only choose one to be my daughter, I would choose you. And I love that girl. When you have a daughter just kind of, they basically take your heart out of your chest and they own it. But then a couple of years ago, we started writing bedtime storybooks. And by the way, the illustrations are not mine. I cannot draw a stick figure. But we had a wonderful illustrator. And you know, as a fellow author of books for kids, that the picture's worth a thousand words. So I want to. I want to give credit where credit's do, but, you know, it's pretty simple. The best worst day ever. A bad day doesn't have to end that way. And I think that's a message that kids need to hear. Even if you step on your toy triceratops right at the beginning of the day, even if your first favorite shirt is in the wash, so you have to wear your second favorite, like, it's not the end of the world. So it's a book that I think, especially to me, Jordan, when you tuck your kids into bed, if you have kids, those are holy moments. That is sacred time. And that's moments to process the day and to process what my daughter would call, and she's a social worker, what she would call big feelings. And so hopefully it's a book that maybe gives some coping skills to kids, helps them process some of what they're feeling, and brings parents and kids closer together at the end of the day.

I loved the book. More. My kids loved it. I think, you know, you know this since you've seen the picture books I've been working on. I'm a big fan of these picture books that can truly speak both to the parent and to the kid. And I think the message of this, the core of this one, can do that. So, speaking of books, Mark, three questions we wrap up every podcast with. Number one, which books do you find yourself recommending or gifting most frequently to others these days?

Yeah, that's so hard because I love them all. And we'll say, besides your books and my books.

Right, Jordan? Of course, of course. Right, right.

You know, this is so funny, but never lose a holy curiosity. Albert Einstein said that. So I love reading in lots of different directions. So one of the books I. And this is. This is a little dated, but the Hidden Life of Trees is a great example.

Somebody just recommended this to me.

You know, a tree is a tree is a tree, but it's really not. Trees are pretty remarkable. And that little book just gave me an appreciation for. For trees I just really thoroughly enjoyed. And then, you know what? I'll throw one more out there. It's a book by Arthur Brooks. And what was the name of that book? He talks about crystallized knowledge and fluid knowledge and how in the first 20 years of a career, you're going to have this fluid knowledge, you're going to be innovating. But then you. You get towards the. The tail end and you've got this crystallized knowledge. And for the life of me, Arthur Brooks, I can't seem. I think it's.

Is this from strength to strength?

That's it. That's the one.

Yeah. I keep seeing this book pop up.

Yeah. Yep.

That's a good one.

Another good one. Good. Oh, hey, you know what? Bono's bio. Bono's.

Oh, this has been on my list for a long time.

If you're a wordsmith. Oh my goodness. He's just. His way with words is pretty unparalleled. Then you, you throw in the edge on guitar and it's pretty good.

What book makes you fall in love with the words the most? Like if you're like, oh man, I'm just, I haven't read something exceptional like 10 stars in a long time. I gotta fall back in love with words. What do you read?

Oh, man, you know what? I would say that Bono book, I'm so glad I brought it up because it really did that. I'm like, whoa, like that's such interesting words. And then let's not take for granted the Max Lucados of the world that, you know, just can paint pictures with words. So hats off to Max. Grateful for him and you know, he would be a good example of that.

Yeah. Have you read Shoe Dog?

No.

Oh my gosh. I'm sending you a copy of Shoe Dog. That's the book I go to when I need to fall in love with words again. It's the story of Nike, the creation of Nike.

I read it.

I read it almost once a year. It's my favorite book of all time. Not most life changing book, but my favorite book to read is Shoe Dog. I'll send you a copy. All right, Mark, who do you want.

To hear in this podcast talking about.

How the Christian faith should shape the work that Christians do in the world?

Oh, man, the artists. Makoto. Oh man, Fujimuro.

We had him on like a year ish ago. We need to have him back. I love Mako so much.

Okay. Yeah, I've never met him personally, but I just started reading Art Planning Us Faith and I would like to hear more. Yep.

I will send you the episode with Mako talking about that book. We went deep down this rabbit hole. That's a great answer. All right, Mark, before we sign off, one thing from our conversation you want to reiterate to our listeners before we, before we leave them today.

Yeah. I want to empower people and just say really genuinely if you're good at these three things, please. Sorry. Thanks. I have full confidence in your future. Like I can't promise circumstances, I can't promise promotions, but man, you are gonna enjoy the journey a lot more. In fact, you know, we didn't even really. We didn't talk about. Thanks quite as much. But to me, I mean, that itself is the, the game changer that if you get good at thanks. Oh look out like life is going to be wonderful because you're really good at gratitude. And so that was probably my favorite part to write. But I would just reiterate, hey let's a 1% uptick and please. Sorry. Thanks. World's going to be a better place.

Mark, I want to commend you for the extraordinary work work you do day in, day out for the glory of God and the good of others. Thank you for using this book to remind us of the simple brilliance and the power of our words and the God given dignity of our work. And just on a personal level, thank you for your friendship, your encouragement of my work. I'm so grateful for you brother.

Guys, the book is please Sorry.

Thanks. And seriously, also check out this great kids book, the Best Worst Day. Mark, thank you so much for hanging out with us again.

Hey Jordan, Appreciate it. Grateful for your friendship, your encouragement. Keep doing what you're doing and God bless.

I hope you guys enjoyed that episode as much as I did. Hey, if you want more Mark and.

Jordan banter, check out the Redeem the.

Day podcast that we released about 18 months ago. It's a limited series. I think there's seven seven episodes in.

It where we break down the commonalities.

Between Mark's book Win the Day and.

My own book Redeeming your time again.

The podcast is called Redeem the Day and you can find it wherever you listen to podcasts.

Guys, thank you so much for tuning.

Into the Mere Christians podcast this week. I'll see you next time.

Foreign.

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