Matt Perman (Author of What's Best Next)

The episode you're about to listen to was released back when the Mere Christians podcast was called the Call to Mastery. Now, if you love Mere Christians, you're still going to love these older episodes because the majority of each conversation focuses on how the gospel influences the work of our guests. With that disclaimer out of the way, please enjoy the episode.

Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I'm Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. Each week, I host a conversation with a Christian who's pursuing world class mastery of their craft. We talk about their path to mastery, their daily habits and routines, and how the gospel influences their work. I've been saving today's guest. I've been holding it back for a long time for the right moment, and this felt like the right moment. You guys finally get to hear from my friend Matt Perman. He's the author of what's Best how the Gospel transforms the way you get things done. He's also the director of Career development at the King's College in New York City. Prior to that, Matt served for 13 years as the director of strategy for John Piper's ministry Desiring God. Matt's one of my favorite people.

He's thought so deeply about how the.

Gospel shapes our work and our attempts to be productive. So I recently had Matt on the show to talk about his rich theology of gospel driven productivity. Why we shouldn't let go and let God, but instead trust God and get going. And we also talked about the important difference between following your passions in your work and following your interests. You guys are gonna love this terrific episode with my friend Matt Perman.

Matt Perman, finally have you on the Call to Mastery. Welcome, my friend.

Thanks for having me.

I wish people could hear the conversations we have before we click record because that was really fun. Talking about heroes of Jim Collins, by the way. Speaking of which, I don't think this was in the advanced copy of redeeming your time that you saw when you endorsed the book. But I dedicated the book to you. Yeah. And so there were nine people I listed, quote, giants whose shoulders I stood on to write this book. And you're one of them so publicly.

Wow.

Thank you for writing what's best next and all the work that you've been doing over what has been 15 years.

Since you've been writing about this, I think so. First of all, I really appreciate that. Thank you. That's very kind of you. And it was a Very hard book to write, which we can talk about later on in the podcast. But, yeah, it's been about 15 years. Let's see here. You know that I've been writing on this and then learning about it, going back further than that.

Yeah. So before the book, you started this blog, what's Best Next? Which is all about kind of this intersection of how the gospel should shape our approach to productivity. What led you to start the blog? Like, what was the impetus?

Well, isn't this interesting? It's an interesting story. So in college, I went to the University of Northern Iowa. It's a, you know, a secular university, certainly not a Christian university. And I just had a great time there. Spiritually, there was thriving campus ministries, and I just developed wonderful friendships with so many other Christians. And I really got into theology in college. I loved it. I actually sort of neglected my classes so I could spend more time reading theology and apologetics. Then I would write articles in order to remember what I was reading, learning, and so I could pass it on to others. So really went deep with theology. And I also came across John Piper's works in college, and lo and behold, he and his team were starting a seminary, basically that was beginning the next year after I was going to graduate. And so me and some friends, we applied to that and got in. And so I went up and studied under John Piper. I started working at his ministry, Desiring God. Now, here's the interesting thing, and here's the answer to your question, how I got into this. I found that in my work, knowing theology wasn't enough. So this was an unexpected turn. I actually kind of ignored things on productivity and leadership up to that point. I was like, hey, yeah, to my shame, you know, I feel like that was, you know, definitely a big gap in my thinking and in my values even. But then as I realized I need to learn these things to do my job well, what I realized was there's a gap. There's not a lot of explicitly Christian thinking on this. So that's why I pivoted a little bit. I certainly retained my love for theology, and I still am very engaged with theology, and I want to write more on theology. But I pivoted a bit because I felt this was the greatest need for the church.

I think Piper said, in the introduction of your book, or the forward to your book, what's best next? Something along the lines of, nobody in the world has thought more deeply about theology, of productivity. I think that's spot on. I've tried to catch up a bit with Redeeming your time. But I'm not at Matt Perman level, so. All right, you're at desiring God for 13 years or so today. For the last few years, you've served as the Director of Career Development at King's College in New York. What does that job entail at a high level?

It's amazing. First of all, I'm so glad to have this job because it is such a good fit. And again, it was unexpected. I moved to New York because of the influence of Tim Keller. Not the personal influence, but. Yeah, through his writings and sermons, he. He talks so positively about the city and makes an outstanding case for Christians to be engaged graciously with culture. And he makes the point, if we really want to make a difference in the culture, more Christians need to move to major cities long term. And that's a mark of the major city. If you heard, there it is, a taxi right outside. Yeah, right outside. Right on queue.

Right on queue. I think it was Tim Keller blowing the horn. Yeah.

Yeah. Maybe it was because, well, their west side location is just down the street from me, but so that really captured me. And by the way, I feel like John Piper and Tim Keller compliment one another very well. So, anyway, I moved out here without a job. I was running my business. But, Jordan, you are way better at running businesses and startups than I am. I couldn't get that going the way I really needed it to. Part of it is I enjoy researching and writing so much that it kind of distracted me a bit from the running the business side of things. Well, anyway, I moved out here saying it'll be easier to get a job if I'm already here. I came across the opening at King's College for Director of Career Development. I wasn't expecting to move into that field, but immediately I thought, well, this would be a great fit. It fits my faith and work emphasis. Productivity is immediately related to this, and it's going to position me well to be able to succeed in this job. My background will. And it was exactly the type of thing they were looking for. The president of the college had read my book and heard of it, and so everything came together.

That's awesome. So today you're giving a lot of advice to students, right, about their careers, about vocational paths. What's one of the top pieces of advice you're giving to these college students in that vein, especially regarding, you know, discerning vocation?

Yeah, you know, it's interesting. You know what's really cool? There's a lot of scientific research on this, and it's called the field of vocational psychology.

And Amy Rezneski at Yale. Have you read Resnesky stuff?

Yeah, yeah, she's got some. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the big idea, the big principle is person, environment, fit. And I looked into this because if I'm going to advocate something and teach something, I want to make sure it's solid. And the academic research supports this. A good fit between the person and the organization and job does correlate substantially with higher performance and higher satisfaction. Okay. So that's my big principle. And my biggest advice to them is to help them understand themselves and then understand the job market to find the match. And that's what gets overlooked a lot. And I know that you can go about that in the wrong way. Like the concept of follow your passion, that's kind of one dimensional and looking only at one factor. But the concept of interests is very relevant to choosing a career. And that's a scientifically studied career factor. And there are ways to determine your interests. And there are six main categories. And what I really want to do is help the students understand themselves so they can then evaluate different career fields and talk about themselves more powerfully in interviews. That's really important.

I want to unpack the nuance between follow your passions and follow your interests a little bit more. Because I think this nuance, like, critically important. Right. I think a lot of times when people say follow your passions, what they mean is, is there's this expectation that once I find the Mr. Right of my career, I am immediately going to find cosmic level satisfaction that is going to sustain me the rest of my career, which we know is a ruse, is a lie. Right. So following that advice is really poor. I talk about this in my book Master of One. But follow your interest is a really different concept. It's related, but different. Can you unpack the difference a little bit?

For us it is, yes. So, yeah. And you know, one of the big issues too, with the follow your passion advice, a lot of times they're not even defining passion. And you're like, well, what do you mean? What's going on here? So interests are preferences for certain types of activities. So it's a specific thing. What types of activities do you most enjoy now? There are six categories. I won't list the six categories, but John Holland is the one who has done the major research on this. And it's been other scholars have come along to test and verify his framework. And it holds up his major book, it's called Making Vocational A Theory of Vocational Personalities and work environments. It's quite something. But the six interests correspond to the six types of career fields, really. And so interest is not the only factor. There are three other factors. It's called the big four when it comes to your career factors. There's interests, there's values, there's personality, and then there's one other, which I can't remember exactly right now, but it'll come to me in a minute, I'm sure. And you need to take all of those into account in making your choice, not just one of them.

I like the word interest here, though, because it's this idea of just being curious. Like, what are you insatiably curious about in the world? What general things do you like to do? It's not this expectation that passion is going to lead to mastery. Right. I dig that. I think it's, you know, in your role, though, when you're coaching these students in these choices, kind of foundational to everything is a solid theology of work. Right. Like understanding what the biblical narrative means for their vocational choices. What are you telling your students to that end? What's the overarching advice there?

Yeah, it's. Yeah, we seek to do everything within the framework of the Christian doctrine of vocation. So that's the overarching framework. And I'm most influenced there by Gene Vith, his great book, God at Work. But also there's other, you know, great books on this. Os Guinness, the Call, and then the original Puritan who articulated this so well, William Perkins. I think it is a treatise on the callings and vocations of men from the 1600s, or maybe it's late 1500s. And so the framework is that you can do any work as a calling instead of, like, finding your calling. Now, I do believe there is a type of career, a career field that is a great match that puts to use the special talents God has given you.

Yes, but. But there is not the match. There's a best. There's a good match. There's not the magical thing that God's created you to do in the world.

That's right. It's like a range. It's like a zone. And I think you have a part to play in identifying that. Even if you're not in that zone, that job is still a calling in the sense that God has you there sovereignly and wants you to do it for his glory, and it will have great meaning. So that overarching framework. But then. Well, like Amy, who you mentioned a few minutes ago, in her work, she talks about the different orientation, the mindset you have towards your job. And the great news as Christians is we can always have the mindset of this job fulfills a higher purpose and is not simply a way to pay the bills. Because of the Christian doctrine of vocation, all lawful work can be done for the glory of God and the benefit of others.

Amen. Very well said. In the introduction of Redeeming youg Time, I talk about the difference between works based productivity and grace based productivity. And I only use that latter term because I just didn't want to steal your own better term, gospel driven productivity. Let's be honest, unpack this term for us. You wrote extensively about this in the past. What do you mean by gospel driven productivity?

Yeah. So this is coming from the belief that the Gospel shapes all of life. The Gospel is to shape all of life. It's not only how we get saved, it also gives us the framework for how we are to live having been saved.

Amen.

Amen. And there's three things I especially mean by a gospel driven approach, and these are so core. They're why I wrote the book, to try and get this across. First, you do your work not in order to be accepted by God, but because you have been accepted by Him. It is not to appease God, it is to please God. Now, a really cool thing there is the work we do in our jobs ties to the New Testament doctrine of good works.

Yes.

Like Ephesians 2, 8, 10 brings this together so well. It says preach.

Preach. Yes, preach.

Yeah. You have not been saved by works. You've been saved by faith, apart from works, so that you may walk in good works that God has prepared before you in advance. And the question is, where do we do those good works? Are those just things we do once in a while? If I give some money or a sandwich to a homeless person or a Cub Scout growing up, makes his bed and does these good deeds as a good Scout. Or are they when we volunteer at a soup kitchen? All those things are good works. But the concept of good works in the New Testament is much more pervasive. Good works are anything you do out of your faith in Christ and for the good of others. And that includes what you do in your job. And Paul, actually in Ephesians, when he's giving instructions to how we are to go about our work, he calls those things we do in our work a good thing. He says whatever good thing each person does that he will receive back from the Lord. That's referring back to good works in chapter two, verses eight. Through 10, he's essentially calling the things we do in our jobs good works. And so now your whole life can be an arena for doing good works, which is part of the purpose of our salvation. But then, of course, that puts it within the framework, though, of you're doing them out of gratitude because you have been saved and out of joy, not as a way of earning merit with God or finding your identity, your ultimate significance. So we find that in Christ, not in our works. Now then, the second thing, and this is the thing that I think gets overlooked a lot, and it's the issue of motive. To be gospel centered means now that you have been saved, you look to Christ as your model for how you are to go about your life and work. This is the concept of the imitation of Christ. But it's more than that. We're not just imitating him, he's working through us. Piper has some fancy term on this. I forget exactly what it is. But you look to Christ as your example for how to go about your life and work. And that means, first of all, you're motivated by love, which is concern for others. Sometimes it can be hard to define love. So I've worked hard on this, especially even since writing what's Best. Next. How do we define love and express it in a way that people will understand and get and see its connection to work? And I think at the heart of love is goodwill towards others. Theologians like Jonathan Edwards go into this, or we can say genuine concern for others. We need to be motivated by that in our work. And then what that results in is the third thing. The gospel becomes your standard for how to go about your work, the norm, the norming norm for how to treat people. And what that means is you treat people as important in your work. You, you aim to meet their needs, and you consider their needs as equally important to your own needs, even more important than your own needs. And that means you create products that are easy to use rather than hard to use. You do your work all the way, not halfway. I just heard someone, their office was being painted. The workers didn't paint behind the bookshelves. Well, that's going to create more difficulty for this person because if she ever rearranges her office, whoa, here's this wall, the wall that's only half painted. You don't do that if you really care about the other person. So if you get your motives right, that is going to shape the way you do your work. And you're going to do your work in such a way that it will Provide maximum benefit to the other person, not just to yourself.

I love. I may be butchering the line, but an idea I think about a lot from your book, what's Best Next, is this idea that mediocrity is a failure of love. Right. It is falling short of loving your neighbor as yourself in the ministry of excellence that we are called to pursue. One other thing, going back to the first point in this gospel driven productivity framework, I feel like this is part of the reason why I know you wrote what's Best Next? And why I wrote Redeeming youg Time. Because every other time management puppy advocates that, all right, hey, you're feeling out of control in your life. You want to feel peace? Follow my system. Do exercises X, Y and Z and then you'll find peace. But the gospel assures us that the opposite is true. God loves and accepts us regardless of how productive we are. And thus we do time management exercises or whatever. Xyz as a response of worship, right?

Yes, right.

But that said, while we start with peace and rest, the gospel should lead us to be diligent in how we spend our time. Right, Matt? I mean, this is what you're really.

Passionate and fired up about. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and this is, you know, really basic Christianity. I especially learned this from reformed Christianity theologians such as John Murray. Murray are really good on this. And he talks about, like, some people talk about this concept of like, let go and let God, for example.

Oh, you and I exchanged emails about this with my devotional a few weeks ago.

That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because, yeah, you had that great devotional on it. So I was like, oh, I gotta let him know about this. Great concepts from John Murray. They're great quotes and stuff. And I just love the concept is trust God and get going. Because first of all, when it comes to peace of mind, as I'm writing the book, I'm thinking to myself, I'm not smart enough even to give people a system that is guaranteed to ensure peace of mind. So I'm just. I'm not that smart. I don't want to make a promise to people that I certainly cannot deliver on. But then, theologically speaking, which was the main way I came to celebrate this reality is as I was trying to implement David Allen's book Getting Things Done, which is a fantastic book, I found it was not bringing peace of mind or what he calls mind like water. It was bringing mind like tsunami. I had these super long lists and then I was overwhelmed because I'm thinking, how am I going to do this. I can't do all of this. And then I was. Sometimes I could spend hours doing this mind dump he talks about and just adding things to my list. So I was like, okay, this sounds familiar to me. I thought of Martin Luther because he talks about how he was always seeking to list all of his sins and do penance and all this stuff in order to obtain forgiveness. And it just wasn't working. It wasn't bringing him peace of mind. And then the light bulb went on and he felt he entered into the kingdom and was born anew. When he realized God gives us righteousness as a gift, we are accepted apart from works through faith in Christ, not through the works we do, but through faith. And I thought, you know, my desire to find peace of mind through my productivity system, it's like the practical counterpart to seeking justification and salvation through works, except when I'm not seeking, I'm not seeking salvation through my productivity system, but I am seeking peace of mind. And that's when it hit me, oh, you know what? Peace of mind in the Christian life also comes through faith, not through works. And then ironically, that motivates you to work harder because the pressure is off. There's something about that pressure being off, which all of a sudden, now you've got more energy and you're more diligent.

The best picture I've ever heard of this comes from my friend Paul Sohn. He said, use the analogy of an American Idol finale. I don't even know if the show is still on, right? But way back in the day, you and I watch this and we all watch this. And the difference in the two finalists in the pressure and anxiety they carried in singing their songs when they were still competing, right, that pressure is immense. But then once the winner is announced, the winner comes back on stage and gets to sing the song again. And the countenance is totally different because now there's no pressure.

I've already won.

I've already been declared the winner of this thing. And I could just sing through pure joy of singing over that victory. That I think is part of the picture here.

Yeah, I think so. That totally nails it. And you know, there are fascinating things about human motivation here in this. Like there are some very profound things here. And I try and weave this into how I manage employees and systems I set up. Instead of operating from more traditional fear based management or command and control, I try to operate more from values, lead from values, enable freedom of choice, self direction, because something about that taps more fully into the human spirit. And into motivation and satisfaction in work. So I really try to think hard about how God has treated us in the gospel and what implications that has for how we should treat others. And I think this is another one. Don't put pressure on people. I know there's a place to push people. A coach is going to push people and things like that. I get that. But the overarching framework and the rock bottom thing is not that you have to perform to prove your worth.

Amen. Well said. In your book, you argue that the center of our approach to productivity, right, has to be a walk of the Lord and reminding ourselves of the gospel, day in, day out, preaching the gospel to ourselves. I love this quote of yours from the book. To live your life without God is the most unproductive thing you can do. Unpack that a little bit more.

Why do you say that, man? Well, okay, here's why I say that. Because originally I was going to write a secular book because for a good reason. CS Lewis has this great quote where he says, now, I don't totally agree with this. You'll hear why he says, we don't need more Christian books. We need more great books on secular subjects written by Christians. And so I thought, oh, you know, we do need that. I'm going to do that. Well, John Piper, he said to me, matt, what are you doing? You have these theological giftings. You're just going to be withholding them from the church. If you try and write secular books, let other Christians do that. Your gifts mean you ought to be seeking to serve Christians first of all. And I thought to myself, piper's a very gracious guy. He wasn't, like, trying to impose that on me. He was giving his viewpoint, but he's a reasonable guy. But I thought to myself, you know, I really need to listen to that. He's giving me some advice there that is different from what I had been thinking. It's worth taking seriously. And I came to the realization, I think he's right. And so that's what got me thinking more about going deeper with the biblical connections between productivity and faith and theology. And of course, that was one of the most significant ones and ones that most quickly came to mind because of, you know, the biblical teaching on, you know, the importance of a relationship with God. And there is going to be a final judgment. We don't need to be scared of that if we're in Christ. But there is this reality that our work will be evaluated by God, by Christ. And what this means is if that's the ultimate definition of what's productive, what Christ will regard as worthy and productive when we stand before Him. That's the criteria of success and of productivity. If you do amazing things but you don't do them for Christ, you've left him out of the picture. Then you haven't done something that's ultimately productive, that's going to ultimately receive his approval at the final judgment because he says, apart from me, you can do nothing. Now, your work might have been of great benefit to people during your time on earth and so forth. And that certainly matters a lot. But in this ultimate sense. And so I thought actually productivity, a concern for productivity, points to God and points to Christ, because don't we all want this? Don't we all want to be maximally productive? Which would mean our work having an impact for eternity. And that comes from doing your work with Christ and for Christ.

Amen. I can't speak to obviously how the Lord's going to judge your work, Matt, and the productivity of it, but on this side of eternity, man, I just look at you from the outside. I'm like, you're an incredibly productive writer. You're incredibly skilled writer. I've respected your writing for a long time. Got way more than the quote, 10,000 hours of experience as a writer. So I'm curious, what have you found to be some of the keys to mastering the craft of writing? Maybe the cut across vocations that are relevant to writers, but not just writers.

Yeah. Oh, man. Two things here. So first, before I wrote what's best next, I think I read like 20 books on writing, writing and publishing. Now I got interested in writing in high school. I had an outstanding advanced comp teacher with high standards. So I got some papers back with lots of red marks and that helped me grow. And then I started writing in college, more like on my own initiative. And I always felt like writing clearly will make you stand apart in your career. Like, that's one.

Regardless of career. I tell young people all the time, learn how to write. You can do anything.

You can. You absolutely can. You stand out because so many people don't. And this includes proper use of commas. A lot of times people are creating run on sentences because they're using commas wrong. So anyway, then when it came time to write what's best next? I read like 20 books and I took notes on writing and publishing. So getting that framework, like the formal academic framework of how to write well was important to me. But here's the biggest thing for anybody, especially for those who don't want to read 20 books. The book Made to Stick by Chip and Dan Heath is so helpful. And one of the biggest ideas in there is to be surprising. State things in a surprising way, an unexpected way. Not, don't be sensationalist, don't be clickbait. Has to be true and accurate. But state things in an unexpected way. And I try to bring that in to how I write. Like, try to be unexpected and be clear. Like, those are my two big writing principles and that will help anybody in no matter what their career field is. Like if you're writing emails or if you're writing a policy document or writing a report or you're preparing a presentation. If you bring in those two principles, number one, be clear. Number two, find interesting and unexpected ways to say things. You will get people's attention, they will enjoy your writing more, they will understand it, and it's more likely to stick.

Such good advice for anybody, regardless of if you ever want to write a book. How do you ensure your writing's clear? Like, what are the questions you ask people when you're getting feedback? How do you make sure writing is clear? Matt?

Yeah, that's a great question. So really my first criteria there is does it make sense to me? And would it make sense to me if I knew nothing about the subject?

Yeah, you can get pretty far with that question on your own.

You really can.

Yeah.

Yeah. So this doesn't mean I'm like dumbing down my writing, but I try and write for the person who has never encountered the subject before. And that just. It helps you make sure you're not skipping things, not taking certain things for granted. And revising is my favorite part. The first draft is laborious and highly challenging to me, but the revising is what I really enjoy and where the clarity really comes through. I review a lot of analysis, like, what am I leaving out here? Are there steps I'm leaving out? That's something people frequently do. They just assume a person knows this and this and that and they skip over it and the person actually doesn't know that. I try and make my writing self explanatory. And then second, empathy is really crucial. Empathy is the fourth habit in Stephen Covey's Highly seventh Habits of Highly Effective People. It's couched in listening. So listening is the broader principle or empathic listening, but empathy is central to that. And what I try and do is put myself in the other person's shoes who will be reading my writing or listening to my presentation, or the student who I'm teaching and look at things through their eyes so I can identify what are going to be some sticking points for them. Some things that aren't going to make sense. So I can work those out and cause them to make sense.

Yeah, that's really, really good advice. So, Matt, I ask every guest this and I'm excited to ask you because you've thought really deeply about productivity. What does a typical day look like for you? Like, take us through the literal TikTok of your day from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to bed.

Yes. So during COVID it was a bit different. I'm in a bit of a transition now because we're getting back into the office. You know what I started doing for the first four hours of every day?

Four hours? Oh my gosh.

What first words? I read management textbooks.

What?

Yeah, I read textbooks for four hours every day.

That's intense.

That's intense. Some days. 12 hours. During COVID were you like, couldn't go? Some weekends I spent 25 hours reading textbooks.

Geez, you are a champion of reading. I could never do this.

And I do the exercises in the back.

Yeah, yeah.

What I'm trying to do. I am dead serious about the importance of the gospel shaping not just the way we do our work individually, but the way we design organizations.

Yeah, it's interesting.

The way we create policies.

That's a big, big, big topic. Really interesting.

It is big. And so one of the things, you just need to understand the subject really well. But then second, you know what's incredible? Modern management thinking has so many principles that overlap with the Bible and it doesn't even know it. And so I'm actually learning a lot about how to make application of the gospel in my management through modern management theory, which is very affirming of people, which I think the gospel is. And so that's kind of the big idea. And there's different aspects of management. There's strategic management, there's management per se, there's operations management, human resources management, marketing management, all this stuff. So I'm reading textbooks on all those. But that's about the first four hours of my day. And the reason that's first is right now for me, that's the most important thing that I need to be doing. I need to be building that knowledge base and applying it. So that goes first and then it's email. So get into, you know, the more urgent stuff, the more ordinary stuff of my job.

And I like the shallows.

Yeah, that's right, the shallows. That's right. Yeah, I love Cal Newport's concept of deep work. And so I'm for those four hours, I don't take a break. It is deep work for four hours and then it's more into the shallows. Email I like to spend, I don't do this literally every day, but I like to take the first hour of my non deep work part of the day and get my email inbox to zero process through all of it. And so I know kind of what's the new stuff coming at me and all of that. And then during the summertime what I would do is focus on resource development for students, career resources to help them understand the big four. We talked about the big four career factors, different career fields, so summaries of the fields, recommended companies, all that stuff. Now with the school year starting up around 11 o', clock, I don't let meetings be scheduled before 11am so I can devote time to deep work. And then about 11 and after then it's kind of like a free range day. Meetings with students, meetings with employers throughout New York City and elsewhere. You know, staff meetings, faculty meetings, doing coaching by email. It's interesting. Some of my student coaching is actually by email. Students email me questions or they need help connecting with employers. It's kind of less structured, but I have my framework, my job responsibilities, my omnifocus and all that. And I'm much more open to interruptions and those sorts of things. And then usually ending work about five. But I have this aim of actually working till about 7 or 11 if I can. I know that that's incredibly unrealistic, but during COVID I just, I really want to make the most of this time where there are less in one sense, there's less demands on all of us because we're having to stay home. So I really wanted to make that productive and had dreams of, you know, almost these 16 hour work days. I think that's a personality flaw. I wasn't typically able to do that, but sometimes I did. But now what I'm getting back to is a hard stop to my workday because Cal Newport talks about this. Your mind actually replenishes more if you have a hard stop rather than, oh, a little bit. I'll check email a little bit later, all that stuff. Give yourself a hard stop. I'm getting back to that. And then it's like social activities and stuff in the evenings and it's really great. Now that New York City is opening up more, I feel like I appreciate it all the more.

Yeah, it's really good. I. You and I have very similar schedules. Save the four hours of management reading in the morning, but the same deep work, shallow work. Construct you this great quote, what's best Next, I may be butchering a little bit, but basically this idea that if you want to be satisfied at the end of the day, there's gotta be a match between what you value and how you spent your time. Right. And the way to do that is not blocking your entire day out for deep work, but blocking out, ideally the first few hours, if you have the luxury of being able to do that. So I really like that advice. Hey, Matt. So in redeeming your time, I talked about this idea how Jesus was incredibly busy, but as John Mark so eloquently put it in his book, he was also really unhurried. There's a difference between those things and I think one of the keys there appears to be the fact that Jesus just had margin in his life. You were the one who first taught me about the ringing effect, which is fascinating and I think such a good illustration of what happens when we have no margin. Can you explain the ringing effect to our listeners?

Yeah, I learned about that from an engineer who's also written a textbook. His name is Robert Monson. And I was in a class, professional development class, and he shared it and I was like, wow, light bulb on. What it is, is let's take the freeway as representative of how this works. When it's under capacity, say at 80% capacity or lower, it is going well, people are able to go the speed limit, so forth. There aren't really delays and so forth, but as you approach 100% capacity, things start getting clogged up and clogged up way more than you would expect because very small disruptions end up having a huge impact because they cascade through so many different factors. And what this means is if you want to get more done and in a more peaceful way, don't max out your capacity. Don't try to work at 100% capacity, work at 80% or 85%. It's the same in airports. It's the same in, take this example from your own workload, scheduling meetings. If you have meetings scheduled, packed in there all day long and then one of them has to change, then you might have to be rescheduling two, three other meetings and. And that is wasted time that you're involved in and then other that cascades to other people as well. So schedule yourself and set up your productivity systems so as to avoid the rigging effect. And you'll actually get more done.

Yeah. It's this idea that I love the analogy of you. It's actually not logical that somebody lightly tapping on their brakes on the freeway would cause such a backup. But when the System is at 100%, it does make sense.

Right.

Because of those cascading effects. And the same is true with our time. And in the book I write about this time Budget template framework. Right. Which you do something similar a lot of people do, but just this idea of ensuring that every day as you're planning out the next day, there's plenty of margin. Right. 80% capacity, not 100% capacity. All right, Matt, three questions I love to wrap up every conversation with. Number one, which books are you recommending or gifting most frequently these days?

Yeah. Okay, so here's the big one. Jim Collins book. This is going to be unexpected.

You're an unexpected guy. Four hours of reading.

Yeah, that's right. I learned from Chip and Dan Heath.

There you go.

A lot of people, immediately they go to Good to Great. It's a great book. It is not his best.

Agree.

His best is Built to Last. But the one I'm recommending most is Beyond Entrepreneurship.

So good. Did you read the new one, be 2.0?

Yes, I've read both. And then the new one came out. I'm like, ah. And it's even better.

Yeah.

And here's why it's so important and so good. It gives you a complete framework for leading a company and leading yourself. And Good to Great does not do that. Neither does Built to Last. Good to Great focuses on a small set of principles that are very powerful. But if you don't understand the whole framework, you're not going to be able to implement those principles very well. Believe me, I tried. And I was like, why isn't this coming together the way it should, the way I want? It's because I didn't have the full framework, the full mental model. And Beyond Entrepreneurship gives that to you. And here's my favorite thing about it, though.

It is beautiful.

It's not a Christian book, but my goodness, it almost could have been. Because he basically says the heart of management is two trust and respect. And trust is based in respect. And he says the great companies, what's different about them is they have a profound respect for all of their employees and customers. They don't look down on them. They have a high view of people, and therefore they expect great things from them, and they trust them instead of micromanaging them. And they empower them and have an Uplifting, positive management style. And as I was reading that, I'm thinking this is what the Bible teaches about how we should treat people. Love your neighbor as yourself. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. This is the management application of the Golden Rule. And I don't think he even knew he was doing that.

Yeah.

And that's what is so beautiful. And if more Christians in management would dig deep into books like this one by Jim Collins, beyond entrepreneurship, or Douglas McGregor's the Human side of Enterprise, or some others, they would be able to create systems that are more in line with the Golden Rule and the way Jesus leads. And that reflects the gospel. We need to not only preach the gospel, but reflect the gospel. And the gospel is not only reflected in our personal behavior, but in the systems we create.

Amen. Amen. Really well said. I love Collins. I love Beyond Entrepreneurship. And I'm glad you and I are on the same page that Built the Last is his best book. 100%.

Yes.

It's so good. It's so good.

All right.

Who do you most want to hear on this podcast talking about how the gospel shapes their work?

Okay. I have a great answer for this.

Okay.

Before I get an unexpected answer. It is an unexpected one. Can you believe it? I'm on a roll with unexpected. Let me mention, just really quickly, two other books I recommend. Please.

Oh, my gosh, please. Yes.

So obviously Stephen Covey's First Things First. Yeah, I think it's really solid, really helpful in changes your paradigm from efficiency to effectiveness. Okay. And then Tim Keller's book, Ministries of Mercy.

So great. So great. And, like, didn't do nearly as well as a lot of his other books.

No, it's the irony, isn't it?

Yeah.

Because most people, they think of Keller and what they might say his best book is. It would be like Reason for God or. Or the Prodigal God, which definitely is outstanding. But I think Ministries of Mercy is his best. The first half of the book is a biblical case for mercy, and I think so when I talk about gospel centeredness, what am I talking about? Above all, mercy. Christ centered mercy. Keller makes the case for that. The biblical mandate for mercy, what it is, the scope of mercy, like, even mercy towards our enemies, mercy towards people we think don't deserve it. The reason I recommend this book so much is because it helps you understand what mercy is, and that's to govern how we go about everything in our lives. It is to be infused with mercy. And if you're like, well, I don't Think that'll work? Read the book. And then I have to say, most modern management thinking, the good stuff that I read it is infused with mercy. They might not know. Even Laszlo Bach, he wrote a book, Work Rules on how Google. Great book, great book. How Google does HR and management the end of one of the chapters. And he emphasizes again, by the way, respect and trust. Also transparency. At the end of one of the chapters, he says, basically, it comes down to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. So in other words, the golden rule does work in the workplace. They're not doing it as Christians. But one of the reasons for Google's success is the golden rule. Even if they intentionally doing it, that is the way they operate, intend to treat people. I mean, imperfectly, obviously. Okay, so those books.

Well, so I just want to make sure our listeners understand this. Pound for pound, these might have been the best, some of the best book recommendations ever made on the show. Seriously, beyond entrepreneurship is great. I reread Ministries of Mercy, I don't know, nine months ago. Reminded how good it is. Work Rules by Laszlo Bach at Google Search. So, so good. And you guys can find all Those books@jordanraynor.com bookshelf along with, of course, what's best Next by Matt Perman. All right, who do you want to hear on this show?

Okay, here's who I want to hear. Hugh Jackman.

Oh, my gosh. What an answer.

Yeah, he's amazing. Okay, here's why I've always been inspired by him, and I've always wondered why. Like, I find his acting to be spiritually uplifting, and he's obviously, he's not doing Christian films, but I've always been like, why is this? You know what I learned just three days ago? He's a Christian.

No.

Yeah.

Praise the Lord.

That. Okay, Right.

Hugh just moved to the very top of my list because I freaking love me some Hugh Jackman. By the way, he pre Covid was supposed to be playing Harold Hill in the Music man on Broadway.

Oh. And I don't know.

I obviously got shut down. I don't know if it's still happening, but some friends of mine and I were going to go to New York just to see Hugh Jackman on Broadway. So maybe we could record an episode in Manhattan.

Yeah, that would be.

That'd be a blast. All right, we're gonna make that happen. All right, Matt, what's one thing from our conversation today that you want to reiterate to our listeners before we sign off?

The big thing is Operate from a motive of love. And that's gospel driven. Living in productivity, Christ centered love, looking to Christ as your example and in power and co worker. We are co workers with God, with Christ. And when he gave us the golden rule and then the enhanced version of it, love one another as I have loved you. He didn't just mean that for our personal life, he also meant it for the workplace. He really did. I know we need to contextualize it for the workplace. Like sometimes in the workplace, I know you got to let people go. And at first that doesn't seem loving. I get it. But it can be done in a loving way. It can be done in an unloving way. And this is the big idea. It's let the gospel be demonstrated, not just preached. And demonstrate it both in your behavior and in the systems you create. And to demonstrate it in the systems you create means make these systems reflect the gospel, reflect what the gospel is like. The gospel shows us God's mercy. It shows us God's love. So create systems that are merciful towards people and loving towards people and care about their needs as opposed to only caring about the organization's needs. You can care about both. And that is the mandate of Modern Management. It's in the management textbook I read in early early July. The author says modern management has a dual purpose. High performance for the organization and high satisfaction for the employee. And that's really the golden rule right there. So find ways to shape the systems you create according to the golden rule and mercy and compassion and all of these good things that we see expressed in the gospel.

I can't wait for you to publish Gospel Driven Management. This is whatever you call this. This is going to be a heck of a book if you ever do it. Matt. Gosh, you're such a terrific thinker. I just want to commend you for the great, great work you do in the world. Thank you for giving us just a strong vision for gospel driven productivity and how our productivity can be fueled by love and man. I meant what I said at the top of this. I could not have written redeeming your time without the work that you did before me. So thank you, thank you, thank you. Hey, where's the best place for people to keep up with you and your work these days?

Yes, what's Best next dot com. And I plan on blogging more again. There. That's my company website for what's best next if you're interested in productivity coaching. And then there's tons of blog posts going back probably 15 years now in there and more to come in the future. And if you want to invite me to speak, you can do it through there. That is the place.

That's the place where it all happens. Okay, what's best next.com Matt, thank you again for hanging out with us.

Thanks so much for having me. I really enjoyed it, really appreciated it.

I love Matt. I love how well he articulates this vision of gospel driven productivity, which is really the very heart of my new book, Redeeming youg Time. Seven Biblical Principles for Being Purposeful, Present, and Wildly Productive. And remember, if you practice, pre order the book, you can go and enter to win a trip for two to the Holy Land or a prize of an equivalent cash value. Entering a win is super simple you guys. Step one pre order redeeming your time on Amazon, Barnes Noble, Christianbook.com wherever you buy your books. Doesn't matter, right? Go pre order a copy. I'll give you one entry into the sweepstakes for each copy. You pre order with a max of three entries. And then step two go to Jordan Rayner.com fill out the form right there. That's it. Super simple. Guys, thank you for tuning in to this great episode of the show. I'll see you next week.