Michelle Myers (Founder of She Works His Way)

The episode you're about to listen to was released back when the Mere Christians podcast was called the Call to Mastery. Now, if you love Mere Christians, you're still going to love these older episodes because the majority of each conversation focuses on how the gospel influences the work of our guests. With that disclaimer out of the way, please enjoy the episode. Hey everyone, welcome to the Call to Mastery. I'm Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. Each week I'm bringing you a conversation with a Christ follower who's pursuing world class mastery of their vocation. We're talking about their path to mastery, their daily habits and routines, and how their faith influences their work. Today I am thrilled to bring you a conversation with basically the female version of me, Jordan Rayner. Her name is Michelle Myers. She's the founder of she Works His Way, which simultaneously provides women with business training and gospel centric personal development. I actually spent the weekend with Michelle and her husband a few months ago and I just fell in love with them and their ministry, which is very much aligned with the work that me and my team are doing here at Jordan Rayner and Company. Michelle's a serial entrepreneur with a couple of pretty significant wins under her belt. We actually didn't get into the details of that. We talked most about the work she's doing right now. She Works His Way. Michelle is a seminary graduate with an incredibly solid theology of work and today she's just doing a masterful job building her community, leading her team, and helping women connect the gospel to their work. In today's conversation you're going to hear Michelle and I talk about how to under promise and over deliver in order to create super fans of any brand. I am all in on this as a key to mastering entrepreneurship or any form of leadership. We also talked about what Paul's growing humility in the New Testament means for our work. And we talked about the danger in using our man made term servant leader which is so pervasive. Dude, today I had a really hard time picking out the most valuable gems of this thing because There were about 10 I wanted to tell you guys about. So you just have to trust me and listen to the whole conversation. Please enjoy my conversation now with Michelle Myers. Michelle, so fun to hang out with you. How are you?

I'm good. How are you?

I am well. So I wanted to start by sharing with our listeners how we met at this Dave Ramsey event back in October and I was on your podcast and you shared with your audience from your perspective, how this all went down. I like the way you articulated it. So can you start here, Share how we kind of got to know each other?

My goodness. We are at Dave Ramsey's brand new headquarters. And so I'm walking in and it's more of like a casual meet and greet. The event hasn't officially started, and so I'm just kind of getting my bearings of, we're here, this is where things are. And while I'm still processing, because it is an impressive lobby, so I'm still processing everything. And then Jordan runs up to me and he's, you know, if you've met Jordan, he has a ball of energy, the energy that you hear on the podcast. Just imagine that's in your face and he is like, hey, you're Michelle Myers and we need to be friends. I'm Jordan Rainer and he tells me everything about myself. He has done his research, he's done his homework. He knows who I am, he knows my business mission statement. And I'm like, I have a new best friend. And I am so excited.

So here's why I was so excited to meet you and James, and for those of you listening, just to give a little bit more context to this event, actually, I think we've had a couple of people on the show who have talked about this particular event. So we were in Nashville at Dave Ramsey's headquarters for what they called this influencer event. Right. Other authors and entrepreneurs who are, by Ramsey standards, doing interesting things. And we were just brought together to connect and share best practices, etc, and before the event, they sent out this very long PDF with the, I don't know, 60, 70 people who are going to be there in their bios, and there were very few people, there were only a handful of people that I wanted to proactively reach out to. You guys were one of them. And it's because I so love and deeply resonate with the work that you and your team are doing at she Works His Way. So that's a good transition. Tell us what you and your team do at she Works His Way.

So we exist to encourage and equip working women that want to genuinely keep the Lord at the center and the focus of everything that they do. And so we have spread across all industries where I know a lot of membership communities kind of hone in on one kind of vocation, but every job could be done for the glory of God. And so to be able to bring these women together and understand that even Though our industries are different, being a Christ follower in any type of workplace, we all typically run into the same struggles, the same questions, and this need, the same training, understanding that even if our tasks are different, our purpose in being there is the same. And so we really just kind of want to hone in because it's a noisy world and we really believe that everything we really need to know, Jesus already said. And so we go straight to God's word and. And derive application for our work world from it.

I love it so much. And you guys are already getting why I was so excited to meet Michelle. So one of the things that I was really struck by when we met in Nashville was the founding story of the organization, kind of the genesis of this thing. Because this is, like, pretty personal for you. Would you mind sharing that? Sure.

So it was not a business plan. I did not say, hey, this is what our logo is going to be. This is our name. It was four friends on Google Hangout who said, hey, listen, we are seeing that there are lots of women around us who are falling for the lure of money and fame and success. And the truth of the matter was we realized that there's no sin that we're not capable of. And so it wasn't a judging response. It was looking at a very real situation that was around us and realizing that could happen to us. Let's come together and let's start asking each other some really tough questions, because we don't want to succeed at what doesn't really matter. We want to make sure that our work is done just like you say, for the glory of God and the good of others. That's why we want to be here. We don't want to start chasing all of these things and lose our walk with the Lord and lose our relationships with our family in the process.

You reminded me of the story Tim Keller. Are you a Keller fan, by the way?

Oh, yes.

Maybe you know the story. So in one of his books, I can't remember what it was, he talks about how after World War II, there were some Nazi generals on trial. And one of them is brought into the courtroom, and there's a witness there who, as soon as he sees this, is a witness who was tortured by this Nazi soldier in a concentration camp. And the witness just breaks down sobbing uncontrollably when he sees the Nazi soldier. And somebody asks the witness, the survivor, what's wrong? And he says, he looked at this Nazi soldier. He saw him as just a man. It's just a human being to realize he was capable of the same sins as that person. I think that's the gospel, right? That's Paul saying that he's the worst amongst. Why is that so important? As we think about our work specifically.

Michelle, I think it keeps us in perspective of who is the leader and who is really in control. Because I think so often, particularly as we develop skills, it becomes easier to not be dependent on God. But I think that, you know, even just using that example of Paul as he wrote, you can kind of see the progression of how the more he knew of Christ, the less he thought of himself. Because even in the beginning it was, I am the least of all the disciples. And then it graduated to eventually he was the chief of all sinners. And so there's a progression in how he realized his dependence. Even though we could say he became more bold and he had more ministry wins under his belt, he's arguably the greatest missionary of all time, yet he was becoming more and more in awe of Christ and was realizing his dependence on him. And so I think for all of us, we have to remember, even if you become really good at what you do, as we are coupling that with growing in our walk with Christ, it should be an increase in skill, but also an increase in our dependence on the Lord.

That's really good. So speaking of being really good at what you do, I think you're really masterful at what you do, Michelle, and leading your community. When you were talking me through the numbers of your community one, just from a business standpoint, I was like, okay, cool, when can I invest? I was, I was very interested. But also when you're talking about the engagement of the community, I was really blown away. And I saw this firsthand when I joined one of your calls, right. I joined one of your mastermind calls and I was just blown away at the engagement. So I'm curious, what do you think you and your team at she Works His Way have really gotten really right. Like what are you disproportionately good at?

So I think that there is an element of we always want to under promise and over deliver. And I think we live in a world where marketing is manipulation. A lot of times and so many times even marketing is the best thing that a company does because it's what's seen, it's what's praised, it's what has the most potential for popularity.

What.

But we can't confuse popularity with purposeful or even popularity with profitable. I think there's a sense of we want our marketing to be clear. We want our marketing to accurately represent who we are and what we do. But we want when people come inside our community, to realize it's even better than I thought it was going to be. And so that's our plan, is we don't want to put all of these flashy bells and whistles and false promises that we may or may not be able to deliver on. We want to communicate what God has called us to do within our community. But then once you come inside, that's where we want the bells and the whistles and all of the exciting things that surprise you, that make you go. Our goal is to genuinely be the best investment you make in your business every month or every year, depending on how you pay. We want that for every single member. If they were to ask, what is the best thing? What's the best investment that you make in your work? We want to be the answer for every one of our members.

I love that. So when I was exiting as CEO of Threshold360 and transitioning to be chairman of the board, I wrote a memo to my leadership team of I can't remember if it was seven or eight. The biggest lessons I learned during my two and a half years as CEO and one of them was exactly what you just said. I articulate a little bit differently. I articulated it as startups and really any business, really anything in life is an expectations game. Expectations are everything. You always have got to be under promising and over delivering. Otherwise there's discontent. Right? And I don't think that's how you. I think part of loving your neighborhood as yourself is what you're articulating here, right? Is under promising and over serving them. So let's get really practical. How do you do that? So when you guys are developing a new product, right, how do you and your team sit down and say, okay, great, we got all these features. How in the world practically are we going to under promise and over deliver to the customer?

I think the most number one is best idea always wins. And so by bringing our team together, we don't really think in titles in our team. Everybody has strengths, but because she works his way is for a variety of skills and strengths across the board. What we're trying to think about is, okay, how can we cut the fluff from this to where no matter what you do, it is profitable and beneficial. And so having different personalities and different skill sets and different backgrounds on our team is one of the things that helps us make our products better. Because they've got a variety of people honing in and saying, this is now exactly what I want. And so versus just, you know, one person's genius. There's a multitude of people that have a similar purpose that all come together. And then I think we try to think about who it actually serves and who it genuinely serves. But then there's lots of ways that you can wow. You can wow in a personal touch and a personal check in. Our members, for example, when they sign up for membership, they get a video from our team welcoming them in. They get a postcard in the mail that welcomes them in. We have a week long training where we help them learn how to maximize their membership, where they're getting access to the team in a smaller setting. And so we really try to set them up for success to make sure that they haven't just purchased a membership, but that they're going to be able to use it and to do it in a personal way. Of course, excellence in packaging when it's coming for things that they're getting in the mail. Just want it to be that next level to where it comes. And it's not just the product, it's the experience that goes along with it.

I want to follow up on this theme of personalization because this is something I'm becoming like really obsessed with. So, you know, as my audience builds, I mean our email list, we're growing three to five thousand people a month. It can be really hard for that to feel personalized and that readers can have. It can have a personal connection with me and I want a personal connection with them. So I know what my audience, my tribe really needs. Right. So I think one of the most interesting things I've seen in this lane is personalized video. Right. So I don't do this as much as I like to, but anytime, you know, reader sending me an encouraging note or hey, your book, you know, change my life, whatever, I tried record a quick video just to say thank you. Right. Because I genuinely am grateful for those notes and I want them to know that. And I want them to know that I know them by name. Talk about how you guys do this. You mentioned this team video. What do these look like? I mean, you guys are doing these one by one for each member of the community. Is that right?

So we have a general video that goes out, but then there is a specific video call that they get to be on where they're on not just with us, but with other people that have joined around the same time. They have. So again, it's driving home that community aspect, but also an aspect that values every single person of this community the same. I may be technically the founder of she Works His Way, but I am not the most important member. The only hierarchy that exists and she Works His Way is that Jesus is above all of us. And then we are in the trenches of this mission together. But one of the ways that we can do this easily and quickly. And so if you're just getting started, there are services that you can pay for, like Bombbomb, that allow you to send an email video, but you can also video via Instagram dm and that is completely free. And so that's one of the things that we try to do. We use voice memo and video a lot in our Instagram DM to not just be cold text, but to become a real person to the people that are engaging with us.

Yeah. If you're interested in this topic of hyper personalized video that you can shoot out really quickly to new subscribers or new customers, Bombbomb's Great Loom is great, a great product to this end. And Bonjoro. And we'll make sure we put links to all three of those products in the show notes. And obviously Instagram video is a great way. All right, Michelle, so you talked about under promising over delivering. What's another key in your mind to mastering the art of entrepreneurship and leadership? Leadership. Like, what do masterful founders do that their less masterful counterparts don't do?

I think they focus on retention and on finding new ways to serve people deeper. Because otherwise I think the lure is always just going to be towards what's new and what grows the business in width. And a wide business that's not very deep is not going to be very satisfying to a Christ follower. You know, we're called to deep. And so I think constantly pushing ourselves to deeper levels of deeper service is one of the keys that we can make sure that we're not just having a really wide front door to our business, but that we are closing the back door. And there can be like this intimate living room conversation that makes people want to linger. That's really what we want to focus on to where it is that it's a constant conversation. It is a relationship. It's not just a transaction.

That's good. Hey, Michelle, we talk a lot on this podcast about daily habits, daily routines. I'm really curious what your day looks like from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to bed. What does your day look like?

I wish that my friend Mindy was here to do an impersonation of me when I wake up in the morning. It's a little exaggerated, but I also can't really deny it it. But she basically, just to give you a picture, she's flat, laying down very still and then all of a sudden she wakes up and she's like, okay, so here's what we're gonna do today. So I wake up and there's really, I think that I have two. I'm either awake and I'm like this or I'm asleep and there's not really an in between. And so I've never used the snooze button. I remember once I started setting an alarm clock, probably when I was in middle school, the alarm went off and I don't know if I just didn't realize that there was a snooze feature, but the alarm goes off, I turn it off and my feet hit the floor. I know it's weird. I'm the weird one.

It's not weird. No, no, no, no. Okay, we are weird.

Okay, we're the weird ones. But that is what happens. And so I go straight to my garage gym and I work out. That's kind of how I wake up and then I'll come back.

What time are you waking up?

A 5 o'.

Clock.

5Am So 5am and I'll go work out and then I'll come to my office and I'll have Bible study and prayer and then I'll shower. And typically that can get me to about 6:30 or 6:45 when my oldest wakes up. He's always the first one to wake up. He's clockwork. And pretty much as soon as he wakes up, I am, I'm mom. And right now I'm mom for longer because we're quarantined and we're doing school at home. But on the normal I just go into getting you ready for school mode. But then they leave. I still have a three year old daughter and so she's still at home with me. I do have an incredible helper who comes over to help me with her. And so she's here but in the morning. So typically around 8:30 to about 11 is when I'm in my office and that's when I need to do my most important work where I don't need to be interrupted.

And so when do you decide what that work is? Do you decide when you get to your desk at 8:30 in the morning? Do you decide the night before?

The day before? And so I plan my day the day before. It's like the last thing I do before I leave my office. But I'll either it's usually some kind of content creation or a writing project, whatever I'm doing that I don't need to be interrupted for. I need focused. The morning is when I most likely to not be interrupted. And I think in a sense you also train the people that work with you of I'll hear from Michelle this afternoon if I send an email because this morning she's probably getting some of her more focused work done. So I will work until it's time to fix lunch and eat lunch because you know, I'm not gonna have my little girl here for forever. And so I'm not just going to work through lunch in my office. I go out and I fix lunch and I eat lunch with her. And then usually I will get her down for a nap and then I'll actually this is something that I've started in the last couple of weeks. But before I come back to my desk and start working again, I go for just a quick lap in my neighborhood because there's something about it that clears my head, that almost gives me a reset to where instead of feeling foggy and I don't want to stare at a screen anymore, it almost feels like I'm coming fresh in the afternoon.

Yeah, let me stop you there. So I just started doing this as well. So my first 90. So I chunked my day out into 90 minute blocks, right? So my first 90 minute block, 7:39am Is usually focused on research or writing the next book, whatever it is. But I've started taking 45 minutes after that to go on a run, shower then and then get back to my desk at 9:45 for the second 90 minute block. It's a game changer, right, because it allows me to make a lot of creative connections and I've always valued walking. But there's something about just going for a longer jog, I don't know, that's been big for me. All right, so you take a lap around the neighborhood. Great, you're back at your desk.

Back at my desk. And that's typically when it's more task and responsive related. It doesn't mean that there aren't some days where I have more focused work that needs to get done. But I've found that if I really will focus, if I won't scroll Instagram, if I won't do any of those things, I can usually get what I need to get done finished in that two to two and a half hour block. So then the rest is more task driven. Phone calls, meetings, extra things that have come onto my plate. Figuring out what kind of some strategy, like research for the next project, things that doesn't mean that I can be interrupted and they can have more. I don't want to say scattered, but it can be more of a. These are just the tasks, things that need to get finished. And these are the things that need to get done.

Have you read Deep Work by Cal Newport?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So you're describing the difference between deep and shallow work, right? Deep work in the morning, totally focused, really intense, focused creative work and shallowness at the end of the day. Lots of brain science to back up what you're doing. All right, so you do shallow work in the afternoon. What time are you stepping away from your desk? What does your evening look like? Take us all the way until you go to bed.

So right now it's typically around four. Four is kind of the time when my kids are starting to get tired during the traditional school year. This is when they get home from school. And so I haven't been with them. And so I want to be with them. I want to do homework while we can spend some time together. But typically, most days it's a hard stop at 4 o' clock in this season. I just find that this is when they're more tired. They're kind of done by that point and they just want time. And so I could push it another hour, but it wouldn't be best for them. And I'm not going to have them here for forever and I just don't want to miss it. And so we'll kind of bring it down a little bit. And so 4 o' clock is kind of when we start dinner prep and just some family time and then we'll eat dinner. We usually will go back outside now that it's nicer weather and spend some time outside as a family and then come back inside. They, you know, take a bath, quieter time, you know, read a book, say our prayers, and then we'll put them to bed. And then when we put them to bed, that's when I want to have undivided time. With James, we've got another staff member at our church. She's living with us right now, kind of in between an apartment lease and getting married. So she's staying with us for about six months. And so we might play a game with her or he and I will just have an uninterrupted conversation, which is it's really, really nice. And then I'm usually in bed between 9, 30 and 10.

Yeah, that's good. Seven hours of sleep. Seven, eight. That's great. All right. So as you know, all of my work, all my books, this podcast is focused on helping Christians understand the eternal significance of work and thus inspiring them to do it exceptionally well. I know you're really passionate about this topic. Can you talk about why?

I mean, the workplace is probably one of the largest untapped mission fields that most of us have access to every day. It's probably the place where we come in contact with the most people. So it's likely where we'll also encounter the most people who don't know Christ. And so one of the best ways to earn the right to speak truth is by earning their respect in what you already have in common, which is your work. And so I think that there is tremendous eternal significance by realizing that, you know, the first Corinthians, 10:31, whatever you do, do it for the glory of God. You know, that really means whatever you do. And so we can't pretend like pursuing excellence isn't required, you know, because we're called to represent Jesus. We're his ambassadors. And so that means whatever we do, I'm not here for my boss. I'm not here for my resume. I'm here for Him. And so I have open hands to be used as his hands and feet and to serve the Great Commission, right where he has me. Because I think a lot of times we use this word, calling, God's call on my life, and we make it sound like it's this far off thing that we'll do someday. But the truth of it is, God's call on our life isn't just somewhere we'll be someday or something we'll do someday. It's where he has us right now. And so, because wherever you are right now, you are called there by Almighty God, the question is, are we acting and are we living like he's called us there?

That's a wonderful question for us all to ponder, right? Yes, it's good to plan and good to look ahead to what's next, but we are called to what we're doing right now. Right. That's a beautiful thought. So you have very generously been a big proponent of my latest book, Master of One. Thank you for promoting this so heavily to your tribe. Thank you. And I think it's been a few months since you've read it, so I'm really curious, what has stayed with you. Right. Like what from the book, do you, you know, remember from time to time.

Months after reading it, oh, there's for sure something. So I think that what you did is you gave a spiritual backbone to the idea of essentialism. Because I think that when you are living again that First Corinthians 10:31, the whatever you do, do it for the glory of God. We tend to not distinguish between what's essential and what's important, and we tend to think that it's all important. And that doesn't mean that it doesn't have significance. But what I think it's made me do is it's made me realize what areas are scattered and what ways can I make sure that I'm not leaving meat on the bone, in a sense, but can I really just kind of hone in? Because it really is the pursuit of mastery. It kind of goes back to what we were talking about. It goes in line with pursuing depth, because rather than just saying, well, that's too hard and I'm going to try something else, it says, okay, wait, something isn't clicking. So what else can I try here in this area where God has called me to. To tweak it just a little bit so that I can serve a little bit better?

Hmm. Yeah. I'm reminded of the Mr. Rogers quote, deep and simple. That's what matters, right? And I'm also reminded of like, so I'm the consummate founder, right? So I love starting things. I love going from 0 to 1. The problem with that is, you know, the high of entrepreneurship is in bringing a product to market, but bringing it to market is not even close to the end of that product's life cycle. You got to have the discipline to go deep in that product, make sure it's working, get all the meat off of the bone. I like how you put that right before you move on. That's part of how you master a product, a venture, whatever your role is, wherever you are. So I know excellence is a priority for you, for the organization. It's right on the homepage of she Works His Way. But there's this, you know, there's this trend, I would argue, that's being driven by a lot of Christian women personalities that celebrates the woman who is consistently living as a hot mess. This is the term I'm seeing pop up a lot. How are you responding to that? To that tread loaded question? How are you responding to this trend?

I mean, did you try to hit my annoyed button?

We haven't talked about this. I don't know that this is a hot one for you.

Yeah, no, this absolutely drives me crazy because it's this idea of so let me. I'll spiritually explain it for a second of does Jesus love you in your mess? Absolutely he does.

Absolutely. Amen.

But he loves you too much to let you stay there once you realize that it's a mess. And so to focus on I'm going to be a mess and even to bond over being a mess is missing the entire point that he changes everything. It misses the entire point that he makes all things new, that he can bring beauty from ashes. And so are we going to mess up? Absolutely. Is it going to look messy? Sometimes, yes. But as Christians, should we? Because I think that what people try to do is they try to kind of camp on the relatability piece of it's super relatable to be messy. Well, social media is not the proper place to relate on everything. And so I don't believe in posting a highlight reel. But I also don't believe in abandoning your real life relationships in the real place where Jesus intended for us to get vulnerable and just to put it out there as this facade of I want to be perceived as relatable. So I think this goes back to our motives of what is your reason for putting this out there? Are you putting it out there because you genuinely don't have any real relationships in your life? Because you have gotten so sucked in online that you've ignored all the real people in your life and there's no real depth to the relationships in your life? Because if so, that's a problem? Are you putting it out there even because it's not true, but it's what you think people are posting about and you're trying to do it to manipulate metrics? Because if so, that's not okay. And then are you putting it out there because you don't believe that Jesus can fix it? Because that's probably the biggest spiritual problem. Because there's nothing he can't solve.

Amen. There's no evidence in Scripture that we're called to have it all together. Correct. But I think we're called to try to have it all together. I think we're called to the striving and as it applies to work. We are not called to perfection. We are not called to be the best in our field. We. But we are called to the pursuit of excellence, to the pursuit of mastery, to do all things for the glory of God and the good of others. That is our call. And I think it is in that striving to not be a mess. It's in that striving for excellence in every area of our lives that brings honor and glory to God. Right?

Right. And I think we have to make sure that we genuinely are seeking solutions more than we seek attention. Because I think that attention and someone saying, you know, just even someone consoling me is not gonna solve anything. You can get that from going straight to one real friend who can tell you, because I. We all have those days where we just need to kind of say, this is why I'm frustrated, and this is what's annoying me. And these are. This is the reality of what's going on right now. And I hope every person listening has somebody in their life that will listen and then say, okay, do you feel better? You got it all out now. How do we move forward from here?

That's interesting. We talk a lot on this podcast about how the Gospel impacts ambition for our work. Right. I think a lot of our listeners, myself, I think it can be hard to discern when ambition is fueled by a desire for God's glory and human flourishing.

Right.

And when it's being driven by greed or forgetfulness of the security of our identity in Christ. How do you keep your motives in check as you're building this organization?

So I constantly ask myself where I'm getting my joy and where I'm getting my drive. And if my joy or lack thereof is coming from how people are responding to it, then I'm probably putting myself in a place where I am trying to please people more than I'm trying to please God. And so this requires asking deep questions, but really just kind of settling into the realm of I want to have more, you know, secrets with God in a sense, than I want public praise. I want the greatest accomplishments that I have to be known to God and unknown to everybody else. And so that requires intentionality. And I do not always get it right, but I want to, I think ambition. A lot of times we can become scared of ambition because the Bible talks a lot about selfish ambition. And so we tend to put all ambition under the umbrella of selfish ambition. But if we are remaining motivated and excited and having joy by watching God work, not necessarily the numbers and the measurements and the metrics, which none of those are bad, there's an element to looking at those and being wise, but not allowing ourselves to manipulate the mission based on metrics, but genuinely to stay called to the purpose and to get excited, get most excited and get most joy from God at work, not merely a business win.

I'm thinking back to a conversation One of the first episodes of this podcast with Horst Schultze.

Oh, I love him.

Yeah, he's amazing. He talked about how, you know, yes, metrics are critically important, but as an entrepreneur, your number one job, or as any leader, your number one job, is to keep the vision intact. Strategies can change based on data, based on numbers, but you gotta be fired up by the vision and, you know, believe that God's given you a vision to entrust and protecting that. All right, Michelle, three questions I love to wrap up every conversation with. First, which books do you gift the most to others or recommend the most frequently?

Let Me Be a Woman by Elizabeth Elliot is one that I give a lot because I think that there's a lot of confusion over women's roles in the church and in the business world and all of those things. And Elizabeth Elliot did a phenomenal job job of really breaking down biblical womanhood from a sense of not being swayed by culture, but really being most influenced by what Christ has called us to be as women. And so I gift that book a lot. It's an older book, but there's so much value in reading some books that weren't written recently because I think all recent books are always going to have a little bit of cultural bias. And so if you go back and you read a book from a different time period, especially when you're reading in the realm of faith, it can do away with a lot of the cultural bias and get you to see things from a new lens. So that's one that I do a lot. And then also the Timeless Secret of High Impact Leaders by Dave Earley. Oh, you're gonna love it. Yeah, but it is. It's such a convicting book that really gets you to evaluate your prayer life, which as a person on mission for the glory of God, in a sense of I'm here for him, the majority of my communication should be done with my boss, and we get to do that through prayer. And so it always challenges me to deepen my prayer life in new ways when I read it.

So it's very rare that I say I'm going to read both books recommended by a guest. But those both sound amazing. One, the Elizabeth Elliot one. Because I have three daughters and I'm very passionate about this topic. But the prayer book sounds amazing as well. So you guys can find both of Those books@jordanraynor.com bookshelf you can find all the books from all of our guests here on the Call to Mastery. All right, so, Michelle, what one person could be two could be Three, I don't care. Would you most like to hear talk about how their faith influences the work they do in the world?

So this is going to be a person you don't know, but his name is Dr. James Andrews and he is a doctor here in Asheville and he is in our connect group at our church. And he is a phenomenal leader. He's a phenomenal doctor. And genuinely, like in our connect group, if he's talking and someone as much breathes too loud, they're probably going to get a dirty look from me because I'm like, the doctor is speaking. But he is such a. It's a quiet strength. And whether he is talking about his vocation, whether he is talking about theology, whether he is talking about parenting, he exudes a wisdom that cannot be gathered from the world. It is literally a lifetime of pursuing the Lord when he speaks. So I've begged him to write a book. I've told him that I'll ghost write it for him if he'll just give me some Cliff notes. But he is incredible.

I love guests that are not world famous and so does our audience. So we might have to talk to Dr. Andrews. What kind of doctor is he?

He's a medical doctor, so he just does general practice.

Okay. I love it. All right, so you've given us so much good wisdom from God's word in this conversation. Give us one more. What single piece of wisdom or advice would you give this audience who, as you know, is working in a bunch of different vocational verticals? They are doctors, they are nurses, they are janitors, they are entrepreneurs and writers. But all of them are united in this desire to do extraordinary work for the glory of God and the good of others. What do you want to leave them with?

You know, I think we live in a world where it is easier than ever for your work to be seen by others, between social media and marketing and just online access. And so it's harder than ever to not pursue the seen aspects of our work. And Matthew 23 is probably one of Jesus's harshest words that he gave to the Pharisees. But the Pharisees were religious leaders. These were the honestly, the people that when Jesus came on the scene, knew the most and should have been the most excited. But it was head knowledge for the wrong reasons that motivated their education and their religious titles more than a genuine love for God. And so because we know that the allure of being a religious leader is easier than ever to succumb to, there's a lot of times that I look at how Jesus spoke to the Pharisees as warning for me of what I want to make sure that I don't become. I don't want to be consumed with looking holy. I want to be consumed with being holy. And so in Matthew 23, this is something that I read often to just keep myself centered. Starting in verse five, it says, but they do all their deeds to be noticed by men, for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments. They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues, and respectful greetings in the marketplaces, and being called rabbi by men. But do not be called rabbi, for one is your teacher, and you are all brothers. Do not call anyone on earth your father, for one is your Father, he who is in heaven. Do not be called leaders, for one is your leader, that is Christ. But the greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled, and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted. And so this is really warning us that it's dangerous when a love for a title consumes us more than a love for God. And so I think even in this realm, you're here, you're following Jordan. I would encourage you. The word servant leader is one that we've made up. Servant is what Matthew 23 calls us to. And so if you have attached servant leader to it, ask yourself, is it because I want the title of leader, or am I really genuinely willing to make the greatest kingdom impact by making sure that other people are looking to Jesus as their leader and I'm willing to be their servant because that's where the deepest impact lies.

I love that so much, and I'm taking that to heart right now personally. But I think anyone who's doing this type of work that's obviously applicable to, but I think it's applicable to all of us being consumed with being holy rather than being seen as holy. Why are we posting Bible verses on Instagram? Why? Why are we telling our neighbors we're going to church? We want to be seen as holy? Or do we really care deeply at our core about his glory and the advancement of his gospel in the world? Michelle, I want to commend you for the phenomenal gospel centric work that you and your team are doing as she works his way. Thank you for helping countless women see the eternal significance of their work and inspiring them to care about it deeply and doing everything with excellence. Thank you for keeping the Gospel at the core of everything you're doing. Hey, if you want to connect with Michelle and she works his way, you can find them@sheworkshisway.com Michelle, thank you so much so, so very much for hanging out with me on the Call to Mastery.

Thanks for having me, Jordan. I appreciate you so much.

I love female version of myself. It sounds so narcissistic. I guess it is a little bit. No? I'm such a big fan. Michelle Myers hey, thank you guys so much for tuning in week after week to the Call to Mastery. I love you guys so much. I love making this show for you. If you're loving the show, do me a favor and leave a review of the podcast on Apple Podcast so more people can find this content that hopefully is resonating really deeply with you. And if you're not already subscribed, make sure you subscribe to the show so you get notifications every week when a new episode is posted. Thank you guys again for tuning in. I'll see you next week.