Mike Maihack (Graphic Novelist)

The episode you're about to listen to was released back when the Mere Christians podcast was called the Call to Mastery. Now, if you love Mere Christians, you're still going to love these older episodes because the majority of each conversation focuses on how the gospel influences the work of our guests. With that disclaimer out of the way, please enjoy the episode. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I'm Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. Every week, I host a conversation with a Christian who's pursuing world class mastery of their craft. We talk about their path to mastery, their daily habits, and how their faith influences the work they're doing Monday through Friday out there in the world. Today's guest I could not be more excited about. His name is Mike Mayhack and he's the author and illustrator of a very successful graphic novel series called Cleopatra in space. He's got six books published by Scholastic. DreamWorks has developed the books now into a TV series on NBC's streaming service Peacock.

And.

And he lives right down the road from me. We randomly found each other months ago when he emailed me after reading some devotionals. I have devoured his books with my kids. We love them. And so I was super excited to bring Mike onto the podcast. Today we sat down and we talked about why he initially declined the offer from DreamWorks to develop his comic books into a TV series. We talked about how the Old Testament's slow crawl to Jesus and inspires Mike's stories. And we talked about how all of us, regardless of our vocations, can think about, quote, writing characters and not Christians. I think you're gonna love this conversation with my friend Mike May. Thanks for being here.

Hi. Glad to be here.

I've been looking forward to this for a while. So how we met I think is interesting to share with our listeners. So a while back you sent me this, like, incredibly kind email about how much you were enjoying my devotionals and mentioned he lived in Tampa and wanted to meet up. And I declined most of those requests. We get a lot of those emails. But my assistant flagged your email. She's like, hey you. You gotta see this guy's like, legit. And so I looked at the website, I was like, oh my gosh, this guy's like, amazing. And so we met for coffee in March. And by the way, I didn't tell you this before we started recording. I think that was my last meeting pre Covid.

I think it was like the very next week, like three or four days later, all of a sudden, just everything went down.

Everything shut down.

Yeah, we swung that in just in time.

We did. Ended pre Covid life on a high note. So all that to say, very, very pumped for this conversation. So let's start here. Talk through your story and just kind of the path that led you to the work that you're doing now as a graphic novelist.

Sure. I've always enjoyed drawing, so that's probably mostly what got me into drawing graphic novels. And I always liked reading a lot, too. Most of the stuff I read was comics. Growing up. I read a lot of X Men lots, some superhero stuff, but I also liked reading a lot of independent books. There was a book called Bone that was really sort of the life changer for me. That was sort of this Lord of the Rings meets Mickey Mouse kind of thing. Yeah, it was. It's about these, like, cousins that get into a valley. But it was very. Had a very fantasy, but also like, kind of animated Disney approach to taking fantasy and so taking the styles that I liked growing up with, like cartoons, but also sort of that sort of serious storytelling that you'd find in, like, the books like Narnia and Lord of the Rings and some of Steven Lawhead stuff. And I kind of thought, you know, this is something that I would like to do. I want to tell my own stories, you know, that aren't necessarily somebody else's characters, but my own characters. And that just sort of led me down the path of working towards drawing my own comic.

When did you realize you could make money drawing pictures?

I don't know if that was even in my thought process. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was. You know, a lot of time of me learning that you needed money to, you know, to live, to get food and stuff, you know, When I first started thinking about wanting to do comics, I was just like, I'm just going to do comics. And, you know, everything else that I needed in my life to survive just sort of magically appeared in the house. And then later I learned, oh, it was because my parents have jobs. And. Yeah. So I think it was probably around there. And I thought, well, if I'm going to do this, if I'm going to make a living making comics, at first I should probably learn, you know, learn the craft and get a little bit more professional at it. So I focused my sort of path to going to an art school with a plan to go into animation, eventually to get a job in animation and then use those skills to do some sort of comic book series, which didn't exactly work out that way. I went to college right about the turn of the century. I love saying the turn of the century, since we're about 20 years past that now. And that was right about. I was really into traditional animation. And that was right about the time, like, Toy Story had just come out a few years before, and studios just, boom, closed their doors right about that time on creating new traditional animation content. So the focus was completely on CGI and computer animation, which I didn't really have much of an interest in. So I just kept going through sort of the animation track that I was in, but focused more on the illustration and then went off after college. Just did some side things, like some. I had a custom framing job for about six years, and I was a graphic designer for, like, about another six years. And during those times, I just. During my free time, like, at night or if I had, like a good lunch break, I would just work on my own stuff, my own comics. And I would put those up on the Internet, put them up for free for people to read. And that's kind of how I got into sort of making sort of a career out of doing comics.

Yeah. So you're best known today for this super successful series called Cleopatra in Space. Is that how this all came about? Like, was this like you're on a lunch break just drawing Cleopatra and throwing it on the Internet?

Yeah, mostly Cleopatra and space was actually drawn at my graphic design job, just as I was just sitting there in between jobs, because I would just, you know, here's some work for you to do. And if I didn't have any work, I'd work on clay pattern space. And it was just me having fun. I came up with the character. I was part of this drawing group with a bunch of different animators and graphic designers and comic book artists. It's all illustrators from all over the world. And we were given a topic every so often, about every two weeks. And we just kind of, if we wanted to draw our own interpretation of that, just to keep our skills up, keep some sort of community. And this was like before Twitter and Facebook really kind of started taking off Stone Age. Stone Age. Yeah, the Stone Age. This is like when they had forums and you just go in and find exactly the people you want to talk to and find your niche. One day it was just Cleopatra. And I never really felt like I had, like, the skills to participate. I never felt like I was good a drawer, as some of the other professionals are in there. And I really, you know, think of myself as a professional because I was just doing this stuff on the side. So I just tried to be funny and I. So I drew Cleopatra and I put her with a big bubble helmet and put Cleopatra in space across the top of it, floating cat next to her. And that was just going to be it. Just this kind of funny illustration that I did. And I remember my friend Jeremy, like, immediately, some AOL instant messenger. We're even going back, even further back. He messaged me. He's like, whoa, you gotta make that into a comic. That's brilliant.

I'm like, what?

That's crazy. And I couldn't stop thinking about the character. And eventually I did make a comic out of her. I just. It was like this black and white thing that I put up online for free, and people really seem to dig it. And it just kind of took off. The rest is history.

Now we're six books later and you got a series with DreamWorks and Peacock. It's awesome. So before we talk more about Cleopatra, let's bring our listeners up to speed on the gist of this series. Can you give us a quick overview of it?

Yeah. One of the great things, in fact, is that there's an interview with the executive producer of the show. Whenever people would mention what he's working on, he'd say, Cleopatra in space. And like, oh. He's like, well, so now you know what it's about, right? Which is true.

It's pretty on the nose.

Yeah. Really easy. But, you know, to go a little bit more specific, she's the actual Cleopatra. She's sort of zapped out of her time period, ancient history into like, just the far, far, far, far, far future into this place called the Nile Galaxy. And it's sort of the pseudo retro sci fi fitted with, like, sort of ancient Egyptian kind of design elements. And there's this council of talking cats that kind of tells her she's responsible for saving this Nile galaxy. And there's this whole prophecy and things like that that show up. She finds she has to kind of save the sky, but she doesn't want to. She's kind of impulsive, rash. She makes a lot of mistakes. I love characters that make mistakes. And, you know, eventually she has to learn through sort of her experiences and her friends and just the circumstances that she's thrown into, that she does have to kind of maybe save this world and come to terms with her own insecurities about doing so. So it's got, like, some serious elements to it, but in the end. It's really mostly an adventure comedy. I feel like if I can't write a story to give some sort of emotional response, whether it's laughing out loud or crying, like a tear being shed, I haven't really done my job. So I sort of work at those elements, trying to make those all work in the story.

So I'm not sure if I mentioned this to you when we got coffee, but up until then, I had never read a comic book in my life.

Oh, not ever. Go comic book, ever.

Wow. Not a single comic book ever. And you were so generous. I don't know if you remember this. You brought me a copy of the first five books in the series. I brought them home and my oldest daughter, Ellison, who's five, so just kind of at the cusp of the age range for the series, she wants to be an illustrator.

Oh, great.

So she just thought it was so cool that I met with this like, published graphic novelist and that you have these incredible signatures of the book to the Rainer family. She just dug it. And so like I said, this is like right before COVID So we were like stuck at home the next week. And so I pulled the books out. We sat down to read them, thinking there is no way a 5 year old would sit through an entire one.

Of these books, right?

Because, I mean, they're. They're pretty long, right? We devoured the books, we read them all in like, I don't know, it was like a week and a half, two weeks. And I get to the end of the fifth book and I didn't realize there were six in the series. And I was so disappointed that the book wasn't out yet. So I'm like frantically emailing you, hey, dude, I need the next book, like right now. So anyways, we loved it. Like, I was so surprised at how much fun we had reading the books. You get the sixth one. So by the time we release this episode, the sixth and final book will have been out. It's coming out on August 4, 2020. But you also just had this series developed into a TV show by DreamWorks. I mentioned this a few minutes, so we're recording this right now. July 15th. The show came out today on Peacock on NBC's Peacock streaming service. Can you give us the quick version of the story about how the show came about? How'd this happen?

Well, the show came about pretty much. I had just finished. I was working on the second book. So the first book had just came out. And this was back in 2014.

Geez.

Yeah. The first book had come out, and my agent had kind of, you know, put the book into some feelers, and she had some contacts, I think, at DreamWorks, and had put it on the desk of one of the people that worked there that was responsible for something, picking up projects, I guess, picking up properties. And he was just like, again, Cleopatra in space. What is this? And, you know, the title, sort of call it him. And so it was really that the book had come out that April and July. I met with about three or four people from DreamWorks at San Diego Comic Con.

Wow.

Yeah. I flew out there. My main reason for flying out there was to meet with these guys, and we just kind of sat and had lunch, and they were like, oh, yeah, we want to turn, you know, Cleopatran space into a TV show. And just like that. Yeah. And I only had, you know, you married to a dream, you know. Yeah, yeah. And the dream I married to was I just want to put out a comic. At the time, I thought it'd be a comic series. And, you know, as times changed, I just wanted to do a graphic novel. And I did that. I put out a graphic novel series. So I didn't really have any sort of aspirations to have a television series or a movie made. It was really more about the books. And so I had done that. And so when they said, oh, we want to turn this into a television series, initially I was like, I'm not ready for that. Interesting. I'm not ready for that. I was focusing on the second book. I was really thinking about the story and where it needed to go, and I just. It felt too much too soon. And so I initially declined the offer. I just said, no, I'm not ready for it. And my agent sort of agreed because she thought too, like, you know, you did just start this series. This is going to be a large series. At the time, I thought it was going to be nine books. I sort of compacted that a little bit in the end, but they kind of kept coming back. You could tell they really liked it. And what sort of made me decide to go with DreamWorks is I could tell they really understood the material and they were going to kind of honor, in a way that I would want the show to be kind of represented. And I think that was really the most important thing. I just really wanted, if this is sort of my baby that I had kind of created, and if I was going to give it off to somebody, I want somebody that was going to take care of it. And I felt like that was going to happen. And so, yeah, I. Eventually I said yes. And it was just this, you know, lawn development process where they turned it into the show that you can watch today.

Literally today, July 15th.

Yeah.

So, by the way, I woke up this morning and my. My kids wake up at six. Elson woke up at six o', clock and she comes out of the room, she's like, today's Cleopatra, right? I'm like, yes, it is. So we signed up. You know, we have a no TV in the morning rule.

Oh.

We made an exception and watched Cleopatra while eating breakfast and loved it. I actually thought it was really, really fun.

Thank you.

Actually, like, I felt like it enhanced the book. Like it was a slightly different feel than the book.

Yep, I loved it.

It was a great experience. And I'm going to watch the next episode, actually, Right. When we get done recording this. I'm really excited about it. So was part of your rationale, first of all, just as a fellow creative, a lot of respect for declining that offer. That's not an easy thing to do. What was going through your mind other than, like, I'm just not ready for this? Like, was it. Was it also partially an issue of focus? You were like, I'm working on the second book. Like, I can't handle this distraction. Like, was that part of the calculus?

Yeah, a little bit. I remember once we got into the whole contractual part where we actually. I said, okay. I went through it. It was such a headache. Oh, yeah. I was so glad. I really. And I don't think I. Except till after I was done with book too, as well. And so I think I remember thinking I was glad I didn't get into this while I was still trying to put the second book out. And the second book was by far probably one of the most difficult ones to write and draw because I knew exactly what the first book was. So easy. I had the webcomic. I was thinking about what graphic novel would be, but when the second one came, it was just more of. There's so many directions I can go with this and where do I want to start and how do I want to switch things up and how can I make things still the same but different? So I really struggled kind of trying to figure out exactly the structure of that story. And so to have something on top of that along with. Also, I just. We had just moved. I remember at the time. So we're moving a house, you know, that was complicated. I had a two year old. Yeah, it might have been three at the time. The years. The years, yeah. Yes. But it's so, yeah, part of it was just. Yeah, I didn't want to. It was just too much. Really. Too much. I felt like I had a lot of story to tell and wanted to kind of see where it would go. Yeah.

That's interesting. So one of the things that, like, really impresses me about your craft and the craft of graphic novelist is that from the outside looking in, it appears that you really have to master two domains.

Right.

You get to master words and art. I'm curious if you see those two things as separate, or are they just different expressions of kind of the same core skill set of storytelling?

Parts of that are separate and parts are the same. I always think in terms of the visuals, and I think in terms of dialogue.

Do you think visuals first?

Not always. Except when I'm writing dialogue. There's always a visual attached to my brain, what the expressions and the faces are, what the body language is like. So I'm writing dialogue and coming up with the dialogue initially. But, like, simultaneously in my head, I'm thinking about what that's going to look like on a page. So even though I'm not maybe not drawing right away, I'm writing at first. As I'm writing, those images are just flooding into my head, and so I'm always thinking about it. When you actually get down and start kind of putting those on paper and kind of start really structuring how everything is going to work out, things can change. You can go, well, I need a pause here. I need a break here. There's too much dialogue on this page. Page. There was too much dialogue for what this character is saying. There's. They need to move around the page a little bit more. The worst thing is just to have two characters just talking back and forth to each other and not doing anything. I like to try to get them to walk around the environment or even if they're eating something, just because it feels like, you know, more like real life. Even as I'm talking to you right now, I'm moving my hands. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nobody can see this, but, like, we're constantly, as people, we're always doing something as we're talking about. And so I'm thinking about that as I'm writing. Even for, like, action sequences and stuff. I have to have something in my head, some sort of visual, before I can actually start writing. But I can't really put that visual until I start writing. So it's sort of kind of touching. Yeah, it goes back and forth.

So in my world of writing nonfiction, I think about this in terms of research and writing, Right. And kind of the chicken or egg scenario there, which you're kind of always going back and forth between research and writing. So for you, do you write the full manuscript and then sit down and start to illustrate? Or do you write a little, draw a little, write a little, draw a little. How does that work?

It changes from book to book. Really?

Oh, that's so encouraging to hear you say that. People are like, how do you write a book? I'm like, which one? Yeah, they're all different. Yeah.

Because right now I'm working on a whole brand new type of story. Book six was the last book. So since the beginning of the year, I've been just working on something else and that I've been just sort of going back to because I don't actually have. Well, now I do. But at the time, I didn't really have the characters exactly concrete like I did with Cleopatran Space. With Cleopatra and Space, it was real easy because once I had that first book, I knew exactly who the characters were, exactly where the plot was going to kind of go for this one, I didn't know who the characters for this new book. I didn't know who the characters are until I drew them, but I couldn't draw them until I wrote them. So this is sort of going back and forth to the keyboard or to my notebook and then to my. To my cintiq, which is my computerized thing that I draw on, and just going back and forth, back and forth until I kind of. It's almost like if you think about just two ends and they're just. Your hands are slowly, slowly closer together to something that works. And even now I'm working on a sequence and I feel like I'm still not quite there. I'm about 90% there. But for Cleopatra and Space, I was working with an editor and so I thought it was easier to actually write out the whole manuscript for the story before I actually got into the really labor inducive part of drawing it. Not that writing is any easier, actually. It's harder, I find, but drawing definitely takes a lot longer. I can write a book in about a month, but it'll take me probably about 12 to 18 months to draw it. And so, yeah, so I like to have. If there's any problems that need to get taken care of, I like to have those done in the writing stage before I actually get into the drawing.

For me, that's outlining, right. But I spend the inverse amount of time so I Spend, I would bet. I'm actually tracking this for the first time on this upcoming book. The distinction in time between outlining and writing in full prose. But my guess is outlining 75% of the time and, like, actually writing in a Google Doc, full paragraphs is like 25%. So I think there's something wise in this that I hope listeners are picking up. Like, I think for a lot of creators, you just gotta get to a place where you're comfortable with it being messy and, like, knowing what you're trying to create and, like, always having that vision intact, but being open to the path from getting from point A to point Z. Does that sound right to you?

Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I think there's a humility that comes with being a creator. You have to always have the ability to delete and get rid of ideas and know some things aren't going to fit. And usually, yeah, the nice thing about doing a graphic novel is that, you know, your first draft is always very, very messy. It's always. It's just. In fact, you're probably going to use hardly any of it. I was joking when I was working on this new story. I was joking with my wife one day at dinner. I was like, oh, man, I wrote down all this great stuff for this new story I'm working on. It's just great. Oh, I love this. This is what I'm going to do. What's it going to do? And I just walked her through it. And the characters are going to do this, and there's. This is going to happen. And then I paused for about a few beats, and I was like, I'm not going to use any of it. Because I knew it. I knew I was. I knew eventually the next day I'd sit there, I'd look at it, and I just would rewrite all of it. But I needed to get that messy stuff written down. I had to have that down before I could get to the next stage. And that's the nice thing about doing graphic novels. I have so many stages to go through that. So by the time, like, I have the, you know, the outlining, like you say, I do the outlining and I do the. My different drafts of writing. Then I do my thumbnails, which is a very rough version of the comic, then actually draw it, and then I have to color it. So throughout that whole stage, I can constantly sort of tweak it and make it to a point where I'm happy with it. But at some point, you just have to kind of go it's never going to be perfect and just kind of let go off into the world and some of those things that you thought wouldn't work at all or some of the more popular things that that happen, you always have to kind of trust that you don't have all the right answers and.

Well, yeah, and there's something spiritual there, right? Like we are not responsible for the results of our work. We're just responsible for being diligent with what the Lord's given us. Hey, I'm curious. What do you think world class storytellers kind of regardless of medium do that they're less masterful counterparts don't do? What's the delta between good and great as a storyteller?

Oh, that's a good question. I think one of the things is I think they strive for completion. I think in order to be successful you have to create the work and then you have to finish the work and then you have to share the work. And so yeah, I think a lot of world class storytellers, because they really put the work into, even if they don't feel like it's the most perfect, best, amazing thing they've ever done, at least they've finished it and they're moving on and they're next project can be the thing that, you know, they improve upon.

So what would you tell somebody? Because I got to imagine there's people listening right now that have been working on a novel for a year or working on a business for a year, whatever it is. What advice would you give them for, you know, mentally getting to the place where they can finish, where they can bring this thing to completion?

Oh yeah, that's another good question. Yeah, I think they have to find that thing that they can sort of focus on. I think that's part this day and age, especially this past few months. It's been so hard to focus on anything. And so I think it's important to sort of look at the work that they're working on and think, well, what's important to me about this? What is the key element? Why did I start this in the first place? You know, what am I trying to get out there? What am I trying to tell people? And focus on that key element and keep that in your focus. Right. Put on a sticky note in front of your computer so you're always staring at it. And you know, I have two sticky notes while I'm working on here. It says from Frank and Ollie, you know, the famous animators, it says, what is the character thinking? And why do they feel that way. And the reason I have that is because when I'm working, I have to stay focused on what's important in my story. And I think if we start getting distracted and there's so many distractions, you know, out there, if we start getting distracted, I think that can really hurt our chances to, you know, get our novels done, you know, to get our work completed. But also if we forget what's important about it, we lose that desire to want to finish it.

Yeah, you got to focus on the essence, but you have to define the essence. Right? So I'm a big fan of Ryan Holiday's one sentence methodology for this. You got to write out in one sentence what you're trying to build. A business, a book, whatever. Like this is an X for Y audience that helps them do zoom, period. Like one sentence. No more slap it on a post it note or in a Google Doc and like just stay laser focused on that vision.

Right. It's like your movie pitch.

Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. That's exactly right. So what does your day look like typically from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to bed? What does a life in the day of a graphic novelist look like, Mike?

Currently, it's kind of weird. Weird, yeah. Typically I try to keep, I think part of it was having, you know, some full time jobs that kind of keep me have a really good work ethic when it comes to this. But I have two kids, I have an eight year old and a soon to be six year old. So they're kind of the important aspects of at least my morning I get up. The 8 year old's always up before me like crack of dawn. So he's up, he's almost at that point too where he can just make himself breakfast. He is at a point where he can make himself breakfast. He doesn't want to, but you know, I, you know, I get up normally. My wife has already left for work. Currently she's working at home, but she's still, you know, we're still keeping the same kind of schedules. So we get the boys lunches, we make sure they're staying alive, they get some iPad time and things like that. And usually I would take them to school and I used to joke I had this commute where I'd have this 30 minutes to go upstairs to my office because it was just driving to different schools. So then I would try at least start my day with just making sure the whole family is alive and doing okay. And then once I got home and Start my day as a graphic novelist. I usually. I started this year reading a devotional or some sort of devotional, reading a little bit of the Bible each day to start my day off, which has just been amazing. It's funny that my dad's a pastor and it's funny that it took me till this long to do this every morning. I used to do it at night and it just did not work out at all. I was too tired to really focus on what I was trying to read. But that's really helped my day. And then instead of going on social media, which is also something I used to do right away, I started. I'd read my devotional and then I would draw just for at least an hour, just for fun, just to kind of get the kinks out. Sort of like working, you know, you're stretching before working out. Yeah. And I would do that for a little bit. Then I might check social media. I definitely did today because I was curious. Yeah. What was. People were thinking about the show, but. And then I just get to work and I listen to music all day long, you know, throw a bunch of tunes up in my computer and I listen to music all day and I just work till about, yeah, six o', clock, where either I. We switch off, my wife and I, either I go make dinner or I go pick up the kids, one of the two. And then while the kids are getting ready for bath and bed, I might come up and work for another hour to two hours a night. But for the most part, I make sure I have that family time. We always eat dinner together after the kids are in bed, turn off my computer, I go down and my wife and I watch whatever TV show we're binging at the time. And I spend the last hours of my day reading whatever book I happen to be reading during the day. And so I always end my day. I start my day kind of drawing and I end my day reading pretty much.

I love that. Talk about the difference that's made in reading the Word in the morning versus the evening. I think there's something important here that I want you to drill into a little bit more.

Okay. Well, hopefully we have the same.

No, we do.

Yeah.

And listen. I listen. I think any time in the Word is great. Right. But I do prefer mornings. And I'm curious why you do.

At night you're ready for bed, you're kind of done with the day, you read your message and then you go to sleep, and then the next day it's just the bustle and busyness of life all starting over again. And so there's no really time to sit there and really dwell on it and really meditate on what the Word has to say to you. Think of what God is trying to tell you that day. And he might have something really important to tell you that morning that you need to hear for something you don't even know that's going to develop in the middle of the day. And suddenly, you know, because of those words he gave you in the morning, when that situation develops, you're like, oh, it's right there, you know, and it's just. Like I said, it's funny it took me so long to get to the point because it's now. I can't imagine not, you know, not having that part of my life every morning.

Yeah, I think, too, it's an opportunity for the Word to seep through our work right. As we go throughout the day.

Oh, for sure. Yeah.

It's part of the reason why I wanted you on this podcast. Right. You're such a good excuse to hit on one of my favorite themes, which is that, you know, your faith really does seep through your work. It's not a vert. Right. And I love talking about Christians who are serving others first through the ministry of excellence before they are preachy at all in their work. Right. Serve first, share second. I think the arts are like, the best showcase for this. And correct me if I'm wrong, you would never describe yourself as writing Christian graphic novels yet. And yet there are these deeply redemptive themes. I mean, Cleopatra is the story about this savior of the world. Can you talk about the distinction here? And, you know, why you take this approach to your art?

Yeah, sure. Because Cleopatra in space is definitely. I mean, it's a for anything. I'm using a lot of the old ancient Egyptian deities, you know, and this polytheneistic kind of, you know, way of having religion within Cleopatra and space. And so, you know, you have Anubis and Thoth and all these different. So that's very different, you know, than what you would find in sort of the Christian theology. But it fits well within Cleopatra space. What I kind of love about telling stories is being able to draw upon the stuff in the Bible that really resonated with me as a kid. I was really a huge fan, I still am, of the Old Testament, and I love that sort of slow crawl to Jesus. You know, the Old Testament is just one giant lead up to Jesus and then his sacrifice. And it's just fascinating, I always say, like, that it's just one of the best books ever written. Because every story that I've read since you can go, well, yeah, but, you know, the Bible did that, you know, first, you know, derives from that. And so one of the things I really liked was this, you know, this prophecy that kept coming up about, you know, the king that was gonna come and it was gonna, you know, save Jerusalem. And then finally you find out that that king was Jesus. He wasn't what people expected. You know, they were expecting, like, this very much more like something more like someone more like Samson, you know, that was very. This strong guy with, like, a blazing sword, and he was just gonna, you know, fall from the heavens and just defeat all their enemies, you know, and he wasn't. He was, you know, he was very calm. He was a pacifist. He would spend time with the people. And I love that aspect of it of, like, this. There's this prophecy of a savior, and then it's not what they expect at all. And then that thought, well, what if, you know, what if that savior also feels the same way? What if they feel exactly how everybody else does and they have to work through that, too? There's a story there. I can use that. And that's how I kind of used with Cleopatra. It's like, yes, I want to use that savior trope because I love stories that kind of have that theme to them. But how can I twist that a little bit and make that a little more interesting? And so I could use Cleo as sort of this person that I can kind of feed through those desires and insecurities and how she's going to kind of grow, you know, the same as kind of finding out that, you know, your savior isn't exactly who they should be. Right. Yeah.

And, you know, there's also these themes throughout the books. Right. That are so clearly rooted in your faith that I think makes people long for the truths of Christianity, whether or not they know they're rooted in Christianity or not. So there's one line in particular that I'm remembering where Cleo is talking about how she has come to realize basically that being a leader isn't about her. It's not about ruling with power. It's about sacrifice and service. And I was just like, oh, wow, that was like, really, really well done. Like, you're expounding upon, you know, basically giving a summary of. Of servant leadership in Christ and making Christians and non Christians alike long for that type of humility. Right. Which of course, brings us, you know, just a couple of Steps closer to craving the ultimate example of that in Christ himself. But you did it in such a non overt way. I just thought it was really, really artful and really, really beautiful.

Thanks. I think the reason that works is because, you know, the readers got to grow along with Cleo till she could get to that point. That's not something she would have. There's no way she would have said that in book one, but by book five, she had reached a point where she. She was mature enough to say something like that. But. But readers got to kind of grow along with her. I don't think it would ever have worked otherwise. There's a. I make these soundtracks again. Listen to music all day for the books. And there's this Seawolf song that I put on the first, the very first soundtrack. And there's this line in there, it says, I know you don't believe me when I believe in you. And that was a line or a song I put in there because that's pretty much Kensu, who's her teacher, her cat teacher, and Akilah too. Pretty much everyone around Cleo saying to her, she doesn't believe that she's capable of doing these things. And to instill that, I think there's a lot of us as creatives that we just don't believe that we have the power to do what we want to do. There's just too. It's just too much. It's too. But I love the idea that there is somebody there that does believe in you. Even if you don't believe in yourself. There's God there. God believes that you can do this. You know, he's there. And I think it helps to know that there's somebody there that is kind of pushing for you. You know, he's there, like, you know, rubbing your shoulders, pushing you up to the computer. It's like, you can do this. I believe in you despite you not believing you. And there was characters had to tell Cleo that throughout the entire series so she can get to a point where now she's telling the Pharaoh who's the leader of the whole Nihil galaxy, or at least the Aurelis system, exactly what she was being told in book one. But yeah, again, what makes it work is that she couldn't be at that point at the beginning. She had to grow along with the readers.

My team found this interview you did like 10 years ago. So you probably don't even remember what you said.

So this should be fun. No way.

So in the interview you said something I love you said sometimes you actually make a conscious effort to temper down the on the nose references to your faith. And I'm curious, number one, if you still do this 10 years later, and if so, why.

Oh, I honestly don't remember saying that, but I figured you wouldn't.

Yeah, that's why I wanted to ask.

That's great. But what makes that funny is. Yeah. I don't know if temper down is the right. If I would use the as the right word, you know, nowadays.

Yeah. I don't think that you said that verbatim, but that was the gist.

Yeah. Because I am not trying to, you know, hit somebody over the head with something. And also I don't think that's the best approach too, to kind of wholeheartedly. Yeah, yeah. People have to come to their own conclusions about things and come to their own terms. I think one of the most brilliant sequences and at least in creative, the movie making ever made was Empire Strikes Back with Yoda and Luke where, you know, Luke crashes on Dagobah and he's looking for this, you know, Master Yoda. And Yoda appears, but he doesn't immediately tell Luke who he is. He could, but he doesn't because Luke has to kind of learn on his own. And I think if you hit somebody too hard with something, they're going to back away too fast from it. Like we would if we were being hit too hard with something or it's just going to. It's going to distract from the narrative of the story. Especially when you're talking about entertaining story, you know, stories that are fiction and meant to be entertainment. So I do, I guess I want those themes to come across. So I'm always thinking about like the central themes that I want but without, you know, just being verbose about it. Yeah.

And I think we talked about this over coffee, right? Jesus spoke in parable and he basically never hit the nail on the head and drew the conclusions. And except for when he pulled his disciples privately aside, it was like, hey, here's what I meant. You know what I mean? There's something to that.

Yeah, exactly. And I think that's such a great way to tell a story too, because some of the best stories are the ones where you can draw your own conclusions from, where they can kind of spin off in their own ways. And the ones that last forever are the ones where people can constantly sort of draw their own conclusion and come up with new, new stories that deal with those same themes or characters and stuff like that.

I do want to read a quote directly from that interview that I thought was brilliant, which you don't remember.

So I'm going to quote you 10 years ago.

I mean, time travel, it's Cleo, right?

So here's the quote.

Write characters, not Christians and then from there you can delve into the themes that are important to you. End quote. I love that. And I think that's true in art, but I also think that's true in business. Right? Just make a great business, serve a great cup of coffee. Right. And then reveal the themes as to why that is. I write characters, not Christians. I'm like plastering that everywhere. I just think it's really, really good. A really, really succinct way to say what we talk a lot about on the podcast. So Mike, every podcast episode we end with the same three questions. Number one, which books do you tend to recommend or gift most frequently to others other than of course, Cleopatran's favorite?

Yeah, it's fine. I guess I do gift Cleopatran's favorite part. Any other book. That's a good point. Yeah. I always my go to is you always. And I was trying to think of something that's always my go to because I think most people listen to me, they always hear me talk about Bone because it's the book that got me into Ryan, the really Minecraft novels. So I was trying to think of something about your listeners and I was thinking about this earlier today and I was almost worried because it's a self published book. But I just looked up on, I looked it up on Amazon, there's a Kindle version of it and some used versions of it. So I think it's still worked for some of your readers. It's a good friend of mine, his name is Stephen McCraney and he wrote a book called Brick by Brick and I'm holding it right here just so I can say a little bit about it. Principles for Achieving Artistic Mastery. It's a graphic novel, but it's here I'm going to read. Just a quote here on the on the flap. The road to mastering your artistic craft is a long one. Discouragement, exhaustion, or even simple boredom can cause you to give up. If you want to reach the end, you must find a way to make your creative practice sustainable. Brick by Brick explores the ins and outs of sustainable creativity with succinct and memorable comic essays. In this book you will find useful principles for goal setting, improvement and motivation. Help you set up a creative practice that lasts a lifetime.

That sounds amazing.

Yes, it's a great and he did the, he, he made these comic just because he thought there's a lot of books out there about how you, you know, make comics, how you create comics. And in fact, there's some understanding. Comics by Scott McCloud's one of the greatest. And I gift that one a lot. It's one of the greatest. But this one is really more about the creative aspect of it and how do you maintain that sort of creativity and what inspires you to tell, you know, comics and working on that aspect of it, which is really something that hasn't really been done. I think he's working on trying to get. Doing it again and I'm getting. Actually getting a publisher for it. But yeah, I was thinking about your listeners. I was like, that sounds like something they would be all about. And not only that, but it's a book I fully endorse. It's just a gorgeous looking graphic novel from a really great wise friend of mine. So Brick by brick by Stephen McCraney.

Brick by brick. And you guys can find that@jordanraynor.com bookshelf Mike, who would you most like to hear on this podcast talking about how their faith influences the work they do in the world?

Well, Stephen McRae probably be a good guy. He does a webcomic currently that's also published through Dark Horse called Spaceboy, which is really successful. It's doing really well also. I was wondering, have you ever had John Acuff?

Yeah. So John is coming on the podcast. We're scheduling that.

Yeah. He'd be perfect for your podcast. Amazing. Yeah.

Yeah, John is really, really great. Are you a John fan?

I've been following his mailing list like, I'm on his mailing and lately I've been watching some of his YouTube videos. But yeah, he. I have a friend of mine that did some illustrative work for him like years ago, and that's kind of how he came on my radar. And like, this dude is like, totally. He's got my same sense of sensibilities in terms of sense of humor and what he's trying to accomplish using his skills and stuff. I've never met the guy, I've never talked to him, but I have been following him for a long time and thought he'd be perfect.

John was very kind. He endorsed my last book. And yeah, we've been trying to get him on the podcast for a while. He's committed. We just haven't nailed down a date yet. So we're going to do that. All right, last question. One piece of advice to leave this audience with this audience of Christ followers who believe in doing really masterful work for the glory of God and the good of others. What do you want to leave them with?

Wow, that's a heavy question. Heavy, heavy.

High stakes.

High stakes, yes. I think one of the most important things to kind of leave off is really to stay humble and accept failure. Be quick to forgive. My entire mantra has been Mark, 12th verse, where it's just treat your neighbor as yourself. Love God not just with your heart, but with your soul and your mind. Those are the things that I think we need to live by those rules.

Amen. Very, very well said. Well, Mike, I want to thank you for loving your neighbors yourself by just making great work and telling really, really good stories with these beautiful redemptive themes and pointing to the true myth of Christianity, as Lewis and Tolkien used to say. And on a personal note, thank you, seriously, for giving me hours and hours of fun with my daughter. It's been a blast. So, hey, guys, this series is called Cleopatra in Space. Like I said before, by the time we release this episode, all six books will be out. I cannot wait for the sixth one. And you go watch the show right now on NBC's Peacock. If you want to connect with Mike, you can find him@operations spacecat.com. by the way, is that a reference to Kensu? Is that the deal here?

Yeah, well, in the fifth book that you find out that.

Yeah, don't give it away. Come on.

Yeah, such a reference that nobody would understand unless I point it out, but that's fine. I think that's good.

Yeah, you got to keep it hidden. And, Mike, thanks for having this conversation with us today. We really appreciate it.

Oh, thanks, Jordan. Thanks for having me. This was a blast.

I hope you guys enjoyed that conversation. Hey, if you're loving this podcast, make sure you subscribe to the Call to Mastery so you never miss an episode that we release in the future. And if you're already subscribed, do me a huge favor, take 30 seconds and go review the podcast right now. Thank you guys so much for tuning in. I'll see you next week.