Mike Sharrow (CEO of C12)

Hey, friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast.

I'm Jordan Raynor.

How does the gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who are not pastors.

Are not religious professionals, but who work.

As geography teachers, police officers, and translators. That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to my.

Good friend Mike Shero, the CEO of.

C12, a brand of peer advisory groups for Christian CEOs with more than 4,000 members all over the world. Mike and I finally sat down live on the show to talk about the dangers in church's culture of giving. We talked about what Christian peer groups might have looked like in the first century and how you and I can create mini bema seat moments to judge our work before God does. You're not not going to want to.

Miss this episode with my good friend Mike Sharon.

Today's episode will begin in three minutes, but first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back.

Guarantee on this book.

I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book and you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me. Right. I know this is a very different biography. What is Jordan Rainer doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm gonna de risk it for you because, listen, in my other books, redeeming your time, the sacredness of secular work, master of one, etc, etc. I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work. But in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead.

Right?

So that's the first reason this is a risk and. And I'm going to de risk this book for you. Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're going to love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended.

End quote. But here's the thing.

In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5meerchristians.com and fill out the form on that page. And that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on 5merechristians.com and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5merechristians.com right now to sign up. Now.

Please enjoy today's episode. Mike Sherra. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast.

Jordan. I've been looking forward to this.

How in the world have we gone, like 250 episodes deep and you haven't been on?

I was asking my counselor the same question a couple times and he. He said, I must have offended you at some point in the past.

That's it. That's it, man. Hey, so I feel like I know you pretty well, but I learned something new about you in prepping for this episod digging through my team's research. You were at Walgreens for a bunch of years in kind of an entrepreneurial role.

What did you do there?

What's the story there?

Yeah, it's super fascinating. So, first of all, I was. I was just super poor, and I worked full time all through college. So they were hiring, and that looked great to me.

Did you grow up poor?

Yeah.

Yeah. Interesting. When did you start working?

How old were you?

Well, I mean, construction jobs and stuff like that in high school, but I started working full time at the beginning of college. I worked full time all through college. Yeah.

Wow.

Good for you. All right, so you go to Walgreens.

So Walgreens opened up a subsidiary right near my college. There's a startup with like 30 employees. I bombed my interview and. But then they said, hey, you go to a Christian college, does this mean, like, you're like, a Christian? I was like, yeah. And they're like, tell me about that. And like, okay, a little awkward. I get to the end and they go, hey, we'd like to hire you. I'm like, why? Because I didn't do well on the technical part. And they said, well, we're actually doing an experiment with this startup where we're going to benchmark Christians against non Christians in our corporation. Whoa. And I'm like, sounds illegal, but it sounds good for me.

But you're paying, right? Good. Good deal.

You're paying. Right. And so they hired me to test was it could they teach their business to people who had the values they wanted versus trying to teach their values to people who came out of industry? And I got to be the guinea pig of that.

Fascinating.

Eight years when I started, there's 330 employees my left, there's 3,000 in our business unit. And man, I learned a ton. I had mentors, experiences, but it's also, that was the place I wrestled with sacred secular divide. It's a place where I actually felt guilty about like liking work. And I, I had the defining moment of going, man, I was, I was letting my vocation define my identity instead of my identity, my vocation. But Walgreens was. Or all that stuff kind of erupted for me.

Fascinating. I'm so glad I asked this question. So wait, what did you discover comparing Christian to non Christian employees at Walgreens?

So we did pretty good. They basically said, hey, go hire six more people like you who have this kind of moral compass and values piece. And what I remember having, I had a boss who was an atheist and he's like, I trust your moral compass. Like you, you are trying to do things that are good for the company, not just for yourself. And that's, that's really good for us. And it was, it was a very values driven company. So they, it worked and it was a lot of fun and I grew a ton there.

Yeah, I love that. I've heard you say before, I actually think you said this in your keynote at the C12 current conference of 2023 that, quote, business is a gymnasium of faith for us to work out our salvation, end quote. So looking back on your experience prior to leading C12, and we'll get to what C12 is here in a minute, for those who don't know. But how can you see that experience early in your career at Walgreens and other places helping you work out your faith? What do you mean by that when it comes to you personally?

So when I started kind of having my first bit of business success and working through career stuff, and then I started asking this question. God, I want to, I want to honor you and my work. What does that look like? I suddenly realized that maybe it wasn't as good as a Christian as I thought I was, because I could pass the quiz on like doctrine statements on Sunday, but someone said maybe you're how you live on Thursday, like how you navigate project meetings, technology issues, contract reviews. Maybe that's your actual spiritual maturity, not what you say on Sunday. And I was like, well, shoot, if that's my gauge of spiritual maturity, I'm not as good at Christians, I think. And so when I went from trying to not just don't do bad things and be good so I could go do really godly things in my free time, I started. Actually, I think a pastor at my church once said, hey, if you were to ask every hour, God, I want to love you with my heart, soul, mind, strength, and my neighbor, and you were to ask, did I do that this next hour at work, see what happens? And I actually tried that, and I didn't like it. Like, I was not really loving God or loving my neighbor in a lot of my meetings and then wrestling through how to handle those things. So, man, it's kind of like going to the gym and feeling like you're athletic and then getting on the treadmill and getting breathless too quickly or picking up weights and be like, man, I'm just not as strong. So I found that work made me wrestle with. What did I actually think about God and people and work and truth and security. I mean, all those things.

I read this quote the other day. This is from the Theology of Work Commentary. If we are not following Christ during the hundred thousand hours of our lives that we spend at work, are we really following Christ?

End quote.

100%.

I was like, dang, dang. I think this is the primary crucible of our sanctification. It sounds like that's been true for you.

Totally. Like, I was with. I was actually hanging out with some folks running businesses, and one of the guys was, like, freaking out, put in 100 hours that week and was just stressed. Like, faces turning purple with anxiety. And one of the someone who is not a believer went, hey, aren't you, like, someone who talks about, like, your God is sovereign and such? If your God is sovereign, shouldn't you be a little less freaked out? And I was like, man, he's right. Like, if we believe all these things that Jesus say in church, business is where we get a chance to actually walk that out.

Yeah. All right, so how did God close this gap? So you're at work. You're like, man, if I'm honest, I really don't see how my faith is influencing my work. And now you're running C12, which is helping other Christian CEOs connect the gospel to their work.

How did God close that gap? What happened in your story?

So there was actually a point where I was asking God to get me out of Walgreens, and I made a List of all these things I felt the Bible said are true about me. Like, it's called being a bastard for Christ and make disciples and all this other good stuff. And I was like, man, yeah, I need it. Get me out of here. And he didn't. Not like a angel appeared, but kind of a God met me at my desk one Friday night and was like, mike, if you think you need to change your context to be who I've made you to be, you don't really understand who you're made to be, because you can be who you're made to be wherever you are. And as I started going through the well, then I don't know how to do this. He said, well, how about instead of asking me to change your context, ask me to show you why I have you here and how to. How to be faithful here. And as I started asking those questions, the how do I do that here versus change my location? He brought some mentors in my life. I started. I started Googling and reading books. The first time I'd never read about work, not just as, like, a thing to fund goodness, but a place of goodness. And I went from actually hoping I'd one day get to go do, quote, unquote, ministry to be like, man, I hope I never have to leave this because this is such an amazing spot for me and for what they're about to get to have in the world.

Man, that's so good. I love that. You don't need to change your context to be who God created you to be. It's really good. And be faithful with what God's already put in your hands. All right, that's good context for the work you're doing today. For those who don't know, tell us, what is C12?

Mike? Mike. So C12 is a global community, Christian CEOs and owners who. Who meet monthly in what we call forums that are facilitated by professional chairs or coaches. Diverse businesses, all growth stages, all pursuing this idea of how do we build great businesses? Because I don't think God's glorified by poorly run businesses. They've got fish symbols up there. But how do we run really great businesses for greater purpose with this disruptive idea? We like to say business as a ministry, which is code for us saying, we believe and you are a champion of this, that God cares about what we do, how we do it, why we do it, the effect it has on the world and who we become in the process. And so practically, I run a small business. I got like 30 employees, and we Create the products, the systems, the brand for this global network. And then we equip about 200 of these full time chairs or coaches who run those forums across five continents and thousands of members all over the world.

Founded in Tampa. Fun fact.

It was right in your backyard.

Come on. Right in my backyard. I think this is important. You're not just CEO, right? Like, you're, you're actually a member. You were a member before you became CEO.

C12.

You're one of the organization's 4,000 members today. I'm curious why you believe it's so important that mere Christians be in community with other believers who share their vocation. Right, because we're not just talking about the local church. We're not talking about a replacement for the local church. Church. I hope you would join me in arguing for believers to be involved in a local body.

But in addition to that, we believe.

There'S value in being in community regularly with other believers who share your craft. Why is that important for you personally? Like, don't pitch us as CEOC 12. Why? Why is this important for Mike?

Well, and to be honest, when I first joined in 2010, a buddy dragged me to a meeting and, and he was like, mike, yeah, check this out. You love Jesus, you love business. Don't you want to do this? I was like, no. And he's like, why? I'm like, I've already got a great church. I've got a great small group. I've got mentors and consultants, and frankly, I don't need one more thing. And I had moved to Texas from Chicago and I had an allergic reaction to Bible belt Christianity.

Come on now.

And I was like, I just frankly think Christian business groups are weird. And so I literally went, if I go to a stinking meeting, will you stop nagging me? Yes. Fine. So I went to a meeting. And what I realized was missing for me was I saw people be actually really transparent about the hard and the reality of running a business. I saw people who, because they all had the same pressures and struggles and context, were able to provide accountability differently and that everyone actually got me there. Like, I had an awesome small group, but they're not hiring, firing people and juggling the plates. I was. And while they could encourage me and I got value, I still had a compartmentalized life. And this kind of broke me out of that. And so I was a member for a while, and then I stopped being a member because I became a leader of groups. I did that for a few years, but when I stepped into the CEO role. A little over eight years ago, I jumped right back into a forum where I'm a dues paying customer, I drive. I should go to Austin, Texas for the same group for eight years. I'm in it because they call out my BS and help me not make bad decisions. They encourage, remind me when I get discouraged and get fixed in the wrong stuff. It's probably not. It's a rare day that goes by that I'm not texting back and forth with one of the other CEOs in my forum for either like, hey, awesome win, or I'm just frustrated or what do you think about this? I think leadership can be lonely, but I don't think it's supposed to be. And I think when we're isolated, it also leads to dysfunction because you, you don't get challenged to fully live out what you're called to do in business.

Yeah, it's really, really good. Especially the transparency piece. I think this should set apart Christ followers across the board. But just the ability to drop the facade that I'm always killing it. Right. And that everything's always up and to the right and come into a room knowing that there is grace and knowing that there is love, regardless of your performance, to say, hey, things are not going great, great.

Right.

And just being able to have that support, I think that's, I think that's critical. I was thinking about in preparation for this, I'm like, man, I bet you could think of. I bet you studied this way more deeply than I have.

But throughout history, there's got to be.

Plenty of pairs of mere Christians who change the world. And we're in a community like this. It might not have been called a C12 business forum. Right. But we're in community with other believers in their vocation. Can you think of any of those pairs?

Yeah, I'm a bit of a nerd on this topic.

Yeah, I bet a lot of topics you're a bit. I was going to say you're a bit of a nerd. Just period, full stop.

But yeah, can we agree calling kettle black a little bit right now.

That's exactly right.

I think there's evidence in even just the New Testament in like Paul's Letter of the Corinthians and Acts that, you know, he traveled with peers from his trade group in First Corinthians 6 when he's talking about how Christians should handle disputes, it implies there's like business people in the church having kind of economic commerce conflicts.

Interesting. I've never thought about that.

Yeah, I Think there's implication that there was accountability and community there. But then I think in the medieval kind of era, the guilds, the origin of guilds in Europe were oftentimes actually faith communities that began to then sub break into affinity around a trade or a craft. And so they'd actually be doing Bible study and prayer going, hey, let's get the carpenters together and really hold each other accountable to excellence in our carpentry. And that's what built this successful, you know, trade guilds. And then in the American century, American context, like even the modern movement around workplace benefits, medical clinics, healthcare, actually started by some Christians in the 1930s, like John Heinz of Heinz 57 Ketchup. He put a gym and a medical clinic at his factory in the 1930s because he wanted to authenticate his love for his employees because he'd been sharing the gospel and praying and such. People went, man, I want to care for their human beings and call them the fact that the gospel compels me to care for their soul. And that actually changed that. Or like we've seen industry leaders in like the pallet industry literally transform employee engagement, retention and care around bringing their faith and kind of sharing best practices, saying, let's change what's been a pretty rough industry and make it good and beautiful. So I think it's whole. I think it's old and biblically and historically normative. It's just not. Doesn't happen by default.

Yeah, well, and it doesn't happen to default in a hyper individualistic cultural moment like. Like the one we're living in right now.

Yeah.

I'm thinking of Hannah Moore, the great poet who's in community with William Wilberforce and all those guys in the Clapham sect, without which I don't think. I'm not sure slavery would have been abolished in the British empire in the 1700s or early 1800s. I think about Tolkien and Lewis and the Inklings.

Right.

Is a great example. I actually think you'd be pretty hard pressed to find a mere Christian who lived 200 or so plus years ago who really had an impact in changing culture and wasn't in community with other believers in their field. I think that'd be tough.

One of the characters intrigues me in the biblical stories we know. Like, David had Nathan who confronted him and. But then when Solomon becomes King, Solomon actually asks Nathan's son to be his. His role in the royal court was to be the friend of the king. So he, Solomon saw something in what Nathan did for David, his dad. When I Need that in my life. And actually asked Nathan's son, hey, would you do for me what your dad did for my dad? Because I need. I need someone in the court who will be my friend.

I've never seen that before. I love that. I love that so much. That'd be a fun devotional series of these, like, pairs all throughout scripture.

Who could write that? Who could write that?

I don't.

I don't know. Let's see.

We'll find out. Let's let ask around. Hey.

So as CoC12, you got these 4,000 members. I'm sure you just have this really cool opportunity to hear tons of stories of the fruits, tangible, practical fruits of this type of community. And I'm not talking about positive financial fruit, necessarily. I'm talking about spiritual fruit.

I'd love for you to share a.

Story or two of how you've seen this type of Christian community help your members more deeply and practically apply the gospel to their work work. Can you think of a few case studies as an encouragement to our listeners?

Yeah. One that I got to be right in the middle of, that I love because it speaks to this idea of integration and not just viewing. You know, you speak so well to, like, the instrumentality of work. So there's a CEO who ran a motorsports company, had a couple dealerships, and, man, he was on fire for Jesus. He was giving generously. He was sharing his testimony. He was offering, like, recovery groups and. And programs at his dealerships. Like, wild stuff. Really, really cool. Crushing it in the classic sense of, like, ministry at work. And if you think about business as a ministry stuff. But in a meeting one day, a peer challenge said, hey, I love you doing your business, but I saw an ad in a local, like, sports magazine, and it had, like, girls and, like, swimsuits on your product. And someone said, you guys were doing, like, a bikini bike wash, like, sales campaign at one of your dealerships. And the guy's like, well, that's just my industry. Like, sport motorsports uses a lot of, you know, sexualized ads. And the peer went, well, you're a follower of Jesus, and you say you're doing this business to honor God. Don't you think God cares about how you make money, not just what you do with it? And the CEO was like, well, listen, that's just. This is just my industry, but look what all I'm doing with the money from it. And he went, yeah, you know, I think God. I think that's cool, but God has a lot of money, don't you think? He'd want you to honor him in the way you do it. And if you're an ambassador of his kingdom, shouldn't your ad strategy reflect that? And the guy was like, I mean, I'd have to, like, re overhaul the whole ad strategy. He's like, maybe you should. So it took a year, but he went back to his marketing team, was like, hey, I want us to rethink all of our ad and sales strategies through the lens of human dignity. And how do we refine and reform all that now? It was really bumpy. A year later, they. They were still hitting their sales targets, but they, more importantly, got to lead out an example of saying, hey, we're going to promote human dignity in our space, in the way we do business, not just use the world's methods and then go make up for it, redeem it, because we give money away later.

Yeah, it's so good. I've been thinking about something Sky Jatani said on the podcast. The second episode I did with him, I think aired January of 2024 of just the temptation to pursue the mission of heaven while neglecting the methods of heaven. Right. And that's what you're talking about.

Right?

It's hey, oh, man, look at all.

This money I'm making.

This is great.

I'm doing it to the king.

God doesn't need your money. Right. He cares about the methods as much as what you're trying to accomplish with the methods. Right. And what you're saying is community can be an integral part to spotting blind spots that we've got that aren't in line with God's word when it comes to the methods of pursuing the advancement the kingdom of God.

I think God is actually loaded financially.

Resources are never the issue in the kingdom of God.

Yeah, I don't think he's like, wringing his hands being like, man, I hope I get a little piece of the action on that liquidity event, because that'll really fund my capital campaign projects. Like, I think he's much more interested in, like, what we actually create, how we create it, and who we are and the impact on people and culture in the world. I mean, I'm, I'm very, very pro generosity and pro wild giving. But I think. I think that can be a seductive lie that allows us think, like, as long as I'm giving enough tax deductible receipts, then everything else I do doesn't really matter.

Okay. I wasn't planning on going deep here. Can we dig into this, please? I actually think this generosity culture can Be really, really toxic within the church because I think it subtly leads to a works based righteousness. I'm thinking of an entrepreneur. I know who his business has crosses in its logo. He, this entrepreneur is very vocal about his faith and yet his reputation is cursing out employees. It is the opposite of the way of the Jesus. But if you confront him about it and I have, look at how much money we're giving, look at what we're doing.

I'm like, do you not see this?

You are trying to compensate for sin.

This is workspace righteousness. So, man, I guess the question for.

You, Mike, is like, how do we, yes. Follow scripture's command to promote generous giving and not use it as a crutch.

Right.

For doing the harder work, the more sanctifying work of making sure that we're running our businesses in a God glorifying way. Does that make sense?

Oh yeah, I think it's a huge. I've got a Buddy actually who C12 was a bit of a offensive experience for him because gives a ton of money away. And as he would say, one of the downsides if you give money away is like, you're always funny and your church, no one ever holds you accountable to anything. So if you walk in the church and you're the biggest giver, is the pastor going to call you out for your anger or your marital neglect or your being an absent dad? No, because you're funding missions, you're funding the buildings, you're funding the kingdom, quote, unquote. And he was in a couple forum meetings and someone went, hey, obviously you're pretty great at giving money away. Like, kudos, challenge me, inspires me. But your marriage sounds like you're kind of neglecting that. Are you with your kids? And then to your point, like, okay, how are you actually leading your people at work? And giving is just one thing, but doesn't excuse or baptize the rest. And the first time he'd been challenged and held accountable to all those other domains of stewardship. And for some people, money is a hard thing. They're greedy and they're consumed and it's an idol. And that's, I mean that's the Bible say, like most people wrestle with that, but I think we can falsely think to your point that if you give, and I think we still should double click on what is generous. It's a generous percentage versus a dollar sum. But we've also got our own idols and our issues. And when we make it all about, hey, because I gave 10% or 20% like Whoop Dee doo. That does not excuse or buy off all the other aspects of glorifying God in the way you do business and how you do business. And I think we have definitely fueled an interesting Christian dualism that says as long as you either give a lot of money or talk about Jesus a lot or have a lot of symbols, you're good.

Yeah, come on.

They're like, let's do more than that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because Jesus did a whole lot more than that.

Yeah. This is.

This is related to something else I wanted to ask you. It's something that I'm asking a lot of friends whose work is more clearly and publicly quote, unquote, for God. I think the danger in this kind of work, work, and my hand is raised, if you could see it right now, is doing that work for God, but not doing it with him, neglecting his presence, neglecting, communing with him as I go about that work. I'm doing, quote, unquote, for Him. So for you personally, Mike, what practices do you have in place to ensure that you are doing this work with your heavenly Father?

Yeah, I said business is a gymnasium for faith. That is not like for them. That's for me. And it wasn't just early career Walgreens. It's even in this business. Because I think one of the dangers of a business that's overtly quote, unquote for God is that can just become like cocaine to the natural workaholism that entrepreneurs are prone to. Because now I get to say, I'm doing it for Jesus.

Yes.

So man is God has been like, I didn't really practice Sabbath until I got into leading C12. I would have said I did, but really I. I just meant I had. I went to church on Sunday and I had vacations and such, but I didn't. I didn't actually practice, like, Sabbath. And ironically, it was. It was harder because I'm doing all this mission stuff. So Sabbath has become really important. My morning quiet time and talking. Like, there's a great little prayer book. A bunch of friends I went through by Logan Bloom called Praying God's Word at work.

I've never heard of this.

And every morning trying to actually discuss, like, God's business and go, okay, God, like, let's. I have day of the week where I pray through all my staff, like, by name. What. Why are they here and what. How do I better lead them? Or let's pray for this customer issue. Or let's review this past week. So I Think dependence on God, trying to do more gratitude and be quick to recognize his grace and what we get to do and trying to look for God's stories in the work and go. One of the things I do every Saturday night started when I turned 30. My wife gave me a cylinder, a glass cylinder with blue marbles, with one marble for every week of life expectancy, expectancy I had left in an empty cylinder. And every Saturday night at the end of my Sabbath, I move a marble over and I go, okay, I've spent something I can't get more of. And I asked the question, like, okay, did Jesus would you say, well done? Like, was this a good week with you? Did I enjoy you? Did you enjoy me? What. What needs to change this next week? And so I think just having lots of micro connection points to make sure I'm never running into that. Like, I love Sky Jatani's work. It is so easy for me to be a do life above God and life for God.

Yeah, 100%.

And man, the invitation is to be with. And so to me, it's just a constant course correction and a constant deepening of trying to abide and find disciplines that keep bringing my walk with Jesus into the daily work and not just me bring work as a trophy to God.

Yeah, that's good. I like that weekly practice of kind of judging the week. Do you journal that?

Is it the same questions that you're thinking through every week tell us more about that?

It oscillates the question. So to me, it's like a miniature bema seat moment. I'm like, hey, if I'm, if I'm at the beam of seat Christ, at the end of, you know, end of days, there's going to be this cool celebration rewards. And luckily, I don't think it's going to be like a rub your nose in your woulda, coulda, shouldas. But this is certainly the implied like, oh, I wish I would have focused more on those things. And so I want kind of like a. It's like a pop quiz. Like, let's do a practice test. I was doing beamsc today, this last week. Would it be. And so sometimes, honestly, there's the weeks where you're like, father, that was a week I'm here. We survived it. It's not great. Why? And I'll kind of do a some fruit of the spirit reflection or fruit of the flesh and be like, what was I. Why was this week not great? What was I fixated on? And not in a shame way, but kind of A, can I acknowledge that and go, let's pivot this next week. Let's rebound. Let's take a rebound shot and not lose years or decades. But can I have micro pivots every week? And then sometimes it's going back saying, you know what? I think Wednesday was a pretty big day. I think you enjoyed what I learned that day. Or I think I. I think that relationship that conversation had on Friday was worth the whole week, wasn't it? God, it's just, it just, it creates for me. I need lots and lots of reminders. I think forgetfulness is one of our greatest hazards, and it prompts me with that.

I love the way you articulated that, though, these miniature bema seat moments.

I talked about this.

I encourage readers to do this in the sacredness of secular work. This is one of the practices of, like, judge your work before God does. Like, we know that the BBC judgment is coming, not to determine where believers will spend eternity. Our soul has been judged, past tense. And there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

But at the beat, we are being.

Judged for the actions that we took at work, at home this week. And so wouldn't we be wise to evaluate those things and course correct while.

We still have time?

And it sounds like that's what you're talking about.

About. I like to say, so you're like one of the three people I know in the world who talks about the bema seat. But I think it's a big, big deal. And I like to say that there is a performance review, but the good news is it's an open book test. And so he's like, I want you to know the answers. Like, there's rewards and there's adventure and there's so much celebration. And I kind of want you to know how the, how it works. And so it's not an anxiety inducer. It should be an excitement inducer. But you have to. Again, I want to study for the test.

Yeah, that's exactly right. By the way, if you have no idea what we're talking about, because Mike's right, nobody talks about the BMC. Go read 2nd Corinthians, chapter 5. Hey, we were talking about the sacredness of secular work before we started recording. And I don't know that I've updated you on this, but we know that C12 chairs have bought literally thousands of copies of this book, which, I'll be honest, we did a whole campaign together for that. But the results have been of a bunch, a bit surprising to me in.

The Positive, because these are people who.

Have read every single faith and workbook under the sun. And at the risk of sounding self promoting, I really want this to be an encouragement to our audience.

Like, man, like for you personally, because.

I know you were a big fan of the book. What was the biggest takeaway for you that you're like, man, I'm not sure.

I've heard somebody say this in this.

Way, but what was it for you that led you to enjoy that book?

I really, really like it because so it was practical, it was on earth. So all these things are either so philosophical or theological and esoteric. It's like in the clouds. You're like, that seems so cool. I don't know how to touch that. It avoided the ditches. I feel like this issue is like a narrow path matter where either people go, the kind of common grace, just, you know, do good and maybe neglect the eternal perspective or become so about Great Commission eternal things that you get all the symbols and the just give money, talk about Jesus and you get the bad brands with good intentions. And you rejected both of those dichotomies and really called to this integrated eternal perspective that was like there was life in it and peace in it and practicality. And I was telling you before we got on the podcast, I was talking to a banker this morning who I'd said, hey, you should really read this book. He was wrestling with how to honor God with his investment portfolio and deals. And he said, man, I finally read it and man, did I need it. I said, why? And he said, because I hadn't thought about this kind of four part Gospel and the first commission and the Great Commission. And he's like, honestly, I kind of neglect both. And getting a chance to grab both, though, just is really invigorating. It actually renewed an excitement about work and maybe no chance to kind of walk out his understanding of the gospel differently. So I think anything that doesn't create shame and guilt, but creates a call up into an abundant life in Christ and that is realistic to Monday and Tuesday, not just Sunday and Wednesday, and didn't allow me to kind of choose one part of the commissioning.

Yeah, it's good, man.

Yeah.

And you know, as I say in the book, the people I know who are most engaged in the Great Commission really are the people most engaged in the first. Right? Like, because they understand that a hundred percent of their time matters to God and not just the 0.1% they spend evangelizing. Gosh, they're fully alive. It's that abundant life that you're talking about. They are just winsome to a watching world and the loss can't help but ask them questions as to why. Why are you that way? Hey, I also know you and I really first started develop our friendship after Redeeming youg Time came out a few years ago.

I'm curious what in the example of.

Jesus as you read the Gospel biographies, has most shaped how you manage your time leading C12.

There's a pastor who made a quote about the life of Jesus that then caused me to kind of fixate on this part of his leadership. And this radically shapes the way I lead C12 he made the statement, this is a little provocative. He said, Jesus was a complete, complete waste of his potential, but he radically fulfilled his purpose. He could have healed a lot more, fed more people. He could have like, he could have done a lot more. And he really is kind of a waste of his potential if you think about it that way. But he said, man, I glorify God because I did the work that he called me to do. And I am fanatical about trying to stay clear on what must I. And what must this company do must do and not fall prey to the thousand great things that could be done or could make money or that other people say, hey, you guys should. And I've gotten more content saying, man, that sounds awesome. Someone should probably go do that. And I would love to refer business to them, encourage them, but I've got. I know what we're called to do. And if I try to do all the things I probably won't do, I either won't do any of the things great or I will sacrifice something that God doesn't want me to sacrifice. And so I'd say the being clear on purpose, not potential. And then the fact that Jesus took rest, my coach, my chair one day pointed out, it's like, hey, if in the creation narrative on day three, creation wasn't done and God still stopped and said, that was a good day, why can't you stop when work's not done and have a good day? So Sabbath and being clear in purpose and not getting distracted by trying to do all the things is probably the biggest change in my leadership.

It's good, man. I think about this quote from Kevin DeYoung all the time. The people on this planet who end up doing nothing are those who never realized they couldn't do everything. So for you, practically, what tools do you use to keep yourself focused on the must have the purpose rather than the potential.

So we actually, a couple Years in to me leading this, we. We actually had to restate our mission statement, vision, core values, and some plan tools because, frankly, I was having a hard time making decisions. It was because our original mission statement was just so broad and so inspirational. You could kind of justify saying yes to everything under it.

Yeah. Yeah. It didn't kill strategies, which was the problem.

Correct. And particularly when you do kingdom stuff or gospel stuff is you can justify everything for Jesus. Right. And so we needed to create some edges that allow us to actually go, that's great. That's good. That's even godly. But it's not necessary for this mission. And I need it to be an arbiter tool that I could say yes and no with. So that's a big deal. Inviting. We've got a good board of directors that are very, very engaged executive team and a process around. Okay. Of all the things we could do, is that really going to drive what's most important to the mission today? What are the measures of our mission that are most critical five years from now? And if we were to prioritize investments and activity we're doing this year for where we're trying to move things five years from now, let's let our yeses to those things be so consuming that it demands us to say no to a lot of. Of good opportunities. I literally, I was playing rackball someone last week who's like, hey, Mike, I got a great idea for you. C12 should. And he had all these cool ideas anyway. And don't hide behind your stinking mission statement again.

That's great. What a compliment.

I know. He. I was like, what? He's like, you always use your mission statement as an excuse to not do new things. I was like, yeah, I do. And it's why we're getting better and better at the few things we do.

100%, man. I'll tell you what. Anytime anybody, entrepreneur or not, it's like, ah, Jordan, I'm so overwhelmed saying yes to everything. I got a million things on my plate. My first question is, what is the deep burning yes? What is your big, hairy, audacious goal for your life and work right now? And 99 times out of a hundred, they don't have one. And that's the point. Right? Until that yes is so inspiring, so focused, so well defined, so big that it has to kill off other options. You're all always going to get sucked into the thick of thin things every single time.

Completely agree. But the thing is, like, the world right now, even in Christendom, Kind of celebrates hustle more. How many different things Try. I think it was a female author I heard years ago. I never thought of it this way, but she said the lie of the serpent to Eve in the Garden was that you could have everything without it costing you anything.

Yeah, it's good.

And the serpent kind of just been selling the same lie ever since. And I think that's really sinister and really pervasive and it's super hard to go back and. And you got to make sure you're dreaming the right dream, having the right plan, all that kind of stuff. But essentialism, there's so many great books that have come out the last decade around reinforcing this kind of stuff. But the temptation to do more at the expense of greatness. It's part of like I'm the third generation CEO of this organization and one thing I look back at in Marvel is how many times my predecessors had to say no to really tempting good things to get our business to where it is and get the product to where it was when I stepped in. Because every week I feel like I'm saying no to 15 good things. Like fiercely trying to defend the single track of what we're still trying to accomplish.

Yeah, that's good, man. That's really good. Hey, can we Talk about current 2025? Can we do a little PSA here?

We can, we can.

Come on. So what is current 2025? What is this?

So our business primarily is these hundreds and hundreds of forums that meet all around the world every month. Every two years we do a gathering, it's a conference, but it's not, it's not like Global Leadership Summit or all these other great conferences I go and attend. This one is where we bring together a couple dozen CEOs nominated by their peers to all share best practices of how are you doing this business as a ministry. So people presenting on, on sales or hiring or operations or finance and, and practical like this is what I'm doing today. There's a best practice, a chance to get a couple thousand people from around the world together who are all on this mission, living in the mess of this game together. And then we bring one or two guests in who we think are providing particular thought leadership as well. So super excited that current 2025 that'll include this guy named Jordan Rayner.

Come on now.

Kind of we're like, we need, okay, we need to find a really good looking nerd to come in and help me look less strange. And then Pat Linchioni who's become A friend and is helping coach me. And our team is going to come as well. So it's. It's in late April. It's in Dallas this year. We only do it every two years. It is just incredible because where else do you get to find, like, thousands of people who are all trying to figure out this whole running a business and following Jesus mess are somewhere on the spectrum of trying to do it in an integrated way. And you get to hear from folks who are doing it today. Like, this is. Here's something they learned last year, not 20 years ago, not 30 years ago, and they're not just discussing it abstractly. So it's next April in Dallas. It's two, two and a half days, and I'm stoked. It's. It's a crazy party.

I'm so pumped. I was telling you before we start recording, you know, by God's grace, I've gotten to speak on some big stages, but, man, this one's. This one's a big deal to me. I have so much respect for the work you guys do at C12 and super, super honored to be spending time with you guys. So, by the way, if you're listening and want to sign up, can non.

C12 members register for this event?

Yeah. So the website c12current25.com and 80, 90% of people there will be C12ers, but there every year, it'll be a couple hundred people from cities and countries going, man, I. I want to see what this movement's actually about. How does it actually work? Or, you know, there's. We're in about 160 cities right now, but there's hundreds of cities we're not. So some of people come every two years saying this is my chance to kind of hear what's happening, since this doesn't exist in my city yet.

Yeah, I love it. Well, hey, I would encourage all listeners to go check that out if you want to hang out in Dallas April 23rd through 25th, 2025. All right, Mike, four questions. We wrap up every episode with number one, what job do you want to be doing on the New Earth?

Man, that is definitely a question I've never been asked before. So I love that you have this part of the podcast. I was thinking through going, man, I hope I could have some sort of role where I get to spend part of my time running like a king, a New Earth business school where I get to help new generation leaders dream entrepreneurially and then maybe get to be like an operating partner for the Kingdom Holding Company, where I'm helping place capital and guide strategies for entrepreneurs in the new Earth.

That's so good. I love that answer.

And I wanted some epic hiking, Wanda. And do some adventure trips while I'm there.

Epic hiking. I like that. Maybe you'll be like a hiking tour guide. Like a Sherpa.

Sign me up.

Going up. Everest. The new Everest. I love it. Hey, what books are you giving away most frequently to friends? Like, if we opened up your Amazon order history, what do we see you buying over and over again?

Well, this past year, it's been a lot of weird books by Jordan Rayner, but additionally, I buy a ton of copies of Love and Respect on Marriage. I think it's entrepreneurs and Christian ministry leaders typically are tied for the worst marriages, and it's an area of neglect, so I'm a big champion of that. And then I love recently the book Unoffendable by Brent Hansen.

Okay, I haven't read it. Pitch me on this book.

So it's basically Galatians 2:20 that punches you in the face and gets really practical. It says Christians should be the one least angry, least offendable people on the planet. And whenever we champion truth or fight issues, and we do it from a place of defense and anger and offense we miss, we hurt the image of Christ. And so to me, it's man. It will offend you as a spouse, a parent, a neighbor, a driver on the Tampa highways. But as we think about this polarized world of politics and ideology and worldview collisions, Christians sometimes oscillate between apathy and just being disengaged or being like keyboard courage warriors and being mad and unoffendable, really challenges to a place of, hey, Galatians 2:20 says, I no longer live. Christ lives in me. So people should experience Christ speaking, not Mike's offendedness or fearfulness.

It's good. All right, I'm going to put on the list. I love it. Mike, who do you want to hear in this podcast talking about how the gospel shapes the world work they do in the world?

I think you got to get Pat Lunchioni on because he's had a. He's a wild story.

So I've actually never invited Pat. I'm a little ashamed to admit that publicly. Here. We might cut this out.

Pat, you're invited.

Always.

I would love to have Pat on.

Okay. And I'm telling. I think he should come on. Brandon west is a guy in Gainesville, Florida, who runs a digital firm called fos, and he's got a powerful story about changing the way he thinks about success in business. Business. And then my chair, Dan Walters, he was the former chief of staff of Saudia Ramco, lived in Riyadh for 20 years. And his testimony of following Jesus while leading thousands of employees for a Muslim boss is just fascinating.

Oh my gosh. Is this Dan whose group I spoke to?

Yeah.

Oh my gosh. I didn't know that about him. That's fascinating. Okay. All right, we gotta get Dan right here. That sounds amazing. All right, Mike, before we sign off, you're talking to this global audience of.

Mere Christians, a lot of them entrepreneurs.

And CEOs, a lot of them not.

What's one thing you want to leave.

Them with before we leave?

Just one thing. I'd say your work matters to God. That your vocation is never an obstacle to eternal impact in ministry. It's the context and platform for it. And that it can feel lonely, but it doesn't need to be. So be in community and embrace your business and your vocation as your ministry platform.

It's good. Mike, man, I want to commend you for the exceptional work you do, brother, every day for the glory of God and the good of others, for helping Christian CEOs really practically apply the gospel to their work. I love that advertising example you gave before, man. So good, so practical and just thank you for. Thank you for the humility you show in submitting yourself to the community of others. Friends, if you're a CEO and you're looking for this type of community, check out join C12. If you're not a CEO, we have our own mere Christians community that a lot of you guys know about. @jordanrayner.com MCC if you don't meet the requirements for C12 and make sure you hang out with me and mike@c12current25.com Mike, brother, I'm always so grateful for you. Thanks for hanging out with us today.

Love it. Jordan.

Man, I love that guy. I love the direction he is leading.

So.

So grateful that he was able to join us today. Hey, if you enjoyed this episode, do me a favor and go leave a.

Review of the podcast on Apple, Spotify.

Wherever you're listening right now.

Thank you guys so much for tuning in.

I'll see you next week.

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