Monica Swanson (Mom + Author of Raising Amazing)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back guarantee on this book. I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me, right. I know this is a very different biography. What is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right? So that's the first reason this is a risk and I'm gonna de risk this book for you. Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended. End quote. But here's the thing. In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on 5merechristians.com and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5meerchristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as seamstresses journalists, and bakers. That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to my friend Monica Swanson. She's an author, podcaster, but first and foremost, a mother whose adult children are faithfully walking with the Lord. Now, listen, guys. You guys know this podcast is all about how the Gospel influences the work they're Christians do in the world. This is not a general Christian living podcast, and trust me, that's intentional. And so for almost four years, we have managed to not have a single episode of this show about parenting. But of course, parenting is work, right? It is the hardest work. And so this week, we just celebrated Mother's Day. My team and I wanted to recognize that truth and. And talk about how the Gospel influences the work that many of us do inside of our homes, raising our children. Specifically, we're going to talk about how to access the Holy Spirit's power to stop outbursts of anger at your colleagues. Read Kids. But this is certainly relevant to those of you without kids. We talked about how we can be as intentional about the work we do in our living rooms as the work we do in our offices. And we talked about the importance of surrounding our kids with impressive Christian professionals and how practically to do it. I think you guys are going to love this episode with my friend, Monica Swanson. Monica Swanson. I've been so excited about this. Welcome to the Mere Christians podcast.

I am so excited to be here. Thank you.

So we talk a lot in this podcast about how God's word assigns great dignity, great value to the work that mere Christians do outside the four walls of the church. But God's Word also gives great dignity and value to the work we do inside the four walls of the home. I was thinking about this recently. I was reading a great study by Jen Wilkin on the book of Exodus and just thinking about how the. Really, the first two chapters of Exodus begin with the celebration work of motherhood. The Gospel of Luke begins much the same way, focusing on the work that Elizabeth and Mary did as mothers. This just feels starkly different than the way that culture treats the work of parenting. Talk about that. Talk about Scripture's view of the work of parenting versus cultures for a moment.

Absolutely. It's my favorite thing.

We're just going right to the deep end, by the way.

I love it. Let's just dive in. Well, this is probably the most important thing as parents, we can just be aware of. You don't want to over fixate on what the world's doing, what the culture is doing. But God's calling on us as parents is in such contrast to what the world calls us to. And like you said, if you are looking for it throughout scripture, you're going to see so much evidence of God's heart for family, for parenting. You just named some great scriptures. I've been camping out this week on Second Timothy, where Paul is reminding Timothy of the faith that he has, that he refers to his mother and grandmother. Grandmother. And I just think that our culture would like us to forget, to forget our first calling. When we get it right at home, everything else flows from there so much better. And so, yeah, God calls us to a relationship with him first a relationship with our spouse, and then to train up our kids in the training and admonition of the Lord. Like that is as clear as you can get. And I just believe we have so much more success in every area of life when we get it right at home.

Can you think of a time where you weren't getting it right at home and that significantly impacted the work you were doing outside of the home?

Oh, for sure. I mean, even now, the busier I get as a writer, writing books, podcasting, speaking, if anything, I feel more temptation now than ever to tune out with my kids to be too busy doing the work. And one blessing I have is that because the work I do is primarily about parenting and family, I'll get a quick conviction from the Lord that, like, how can you be writing about this stuff if you're not doing it? And so I fortunately, will hear that. I'll feel that nudge, and I will very intentionally close the laptop, put away the phone, and go invest time. But, oh, I get it wrong as much as I get it right. So that's a work in progress.

I know a lot of parents, my wife included, have really wrestled with feeling called to focus on the work of parenting inside the home while simultaneously longing to put on real clothes and do work outside the home.

Amen.

You've experienced this tension. Talk about this.

Well, it is countercultural because we're being told today to just go for your dreams. I was just doing some research for a speaking event I have coming up, and the first articles that came up when I was looking up just the value of motherhood, it was really all about don't let anything stop you from pursuing your dreams. Not kids, not a husband, not anything stop you from pursuing your dreams. And I just think this message is so in our face all the time that for us to say, I'm going to choose to, first and foremost Focus on my family, my home, my children. I'm a homeschool mom, and I have come to a place where I recognize how valuable it is. The time, those moments that nobody sees but God and me and my kids, those are the most valuable times. And fortunately, Now I have three official legal children. My first three sons are 23, 21 and 19. And so I can look at them and say, you know what? Every moment was worth it. And that inspires me now that I have a 12 year old who I still have a few more years to pour into. And that just reminds me every day how high this calling is and how important this work is.

Yeah, you talk about all in parenting. I think this is what you're getting at here. And listen, I want to be clear. Well, I guess I'll pose the question to you. I don't think that necessitates. I don't think you're saying I didn't see this argued in the book Raising Amazing that that necessitates both parents working full time inside of the house, correct?

Definitely not.

So what does it necessitate? What does. What does all in parenting look like?

Yeah, I think all in parenting is really a heart issue. Again, it's one of those things that nobody on the outside could necessarily see or discern. But, you know, when you stand before God, is your heart all in? Are you looking at these children as a lifetime investment? Are you shaping their hearts in the time that you do have? And you know, we can do more sometimes in 10min of intentional parenting. I've had days where I'm with my kids all day long. And at the end of the day, if I'm honest, I can say I was so not all in. I was fully checked out even though I was in their presence. So I do believe this comes down to intentionality. It comes down to what we do with the time we have. And that's just being honest. Am I distracted? I mean, unfortunately, I do think screens are as big, if not bigger distraction for us as parents than they are for kids. So am I carving out that time. And when I'm there, being honest, fully present is my heart in all the way. And I think again, that's something only, you know.

Yeah, I'm never going to write a book on parenting. I'm hesitant to say that because now the Lord's going to convict me. It's just not my lane. It's not my lane. I feel very called to this land of helping Christians connect the gospel, their work. That said, man, if I were to write one, I would have written Raising Amazing. It is everything a parenting book should be. It is gospel centric first and foremost, and it is uber practical. And one of the practical things I loved is related to this idea of being all in. It's a tool for helping you visualize the commitment that you've made to your kids. You talk about these three jars that you set up around the house with your three oldest boys. Pretty common practice, but can you share it with our listeners really briefly? Because to me, this is really helpful as I've started to do this, to visualize what all in parenting looks like.

Yeah, certainly. And I'm not one of those parents that does a lot of the crafty things. I'm not the mom that you would imagine being a homeschool mom. Like, that's just not in my general makeup. But I saw it was actually something on Instagram inspired me and it was a church had sent home jars with all the kids and the beads in the jar were how many weeks they had left until they graduated from high school. And so each week you take out another bead and it's just such a visual. At that point, my third son, Luke, was so still home and in school, but I saw that he had very few beads and I just thought, wow, how much time am I truly investing in him right now? And it made me cry, just realizing, wow, I take for granted these days because everyone says it, no one believes it, but the days fly by, they really, really do. And so yeah, it's important that we live them well and we recognize the gift they are. I mean, Third John, verse four says, I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth. And that's been a favor verse of mine for a long time. But now that I have a 23 year old and a 21 year old who live across the ocean from me and I hear from them and they are stoked to go to church on Sunday. I mean, every Sunday I get a text from my 23 year old that says, happy Lord's Day. He always calls it the Lord's Day. And he is so fired up to be in community with believers. He's sharing his faith. He's done street evangelism. I mean, this kid is on fire for Jesus. And I just think nothing could bring me more joy. I couldn't sell enough books. I couldn't have anything in my life that could bring me more joy. Joy. And that, that's been the goal all along. And so I just want to encourage parents if you knew what that felt like. You would know. It's worth it to pour into those kids.

As you're talking, I'm reminded this time I was preparing to transition out of the CEO role of this tech startup I was running called Threshold360. I think it was like January of 2019 that we finally landed on a date for my last day as CEO. Months of discussion. We finally picked. It was going to be March 1st. And having that on my personal calendar was so clarifying and motivating to me. Right. It was just like, okay, I'm just. I mean, I was all in before. But even more than that, I could visualize the finish line. I wanted to leave that company on solid footing. And I remember our team crushed February like it was by far our best month ever. And I think being able to visualize the finish line was the tool that God used to help me to do it. That's what you're talking about with these jars full of beads, right?

100%, yes. Because it's no joke. I mean, the days are long, and I think when we have those kids around and no doubt about it, they're work. There's a lot of work in parenting, and it's not glamorous, but the years really are short. And I think that if we can truly believe that that's not just a cliche saying, but it is truth, it's going to help us value those days and really rise up to do the hard work. Because waking up every day, we can put on our best clothes and smile when we go out in the public, but who are we at home? And that's really what's going to shape those kids.

One more thing on this topic of all in parenting. Sorry. I really want to go deep here because I do think this is, like, the foundational core. Like, if our hearts aren't in this work of parenting, it's not going to happen. I know for a lot of our listeners who. And I'm talking about myself here, who inside and outside the home, the work we do in our offices is just a lot easier. And at least when your kids are young, like mine are, frankly, it's a whole lot more rewarding if I'm being totally honest and totally selfish than the work we do in our living rooms. Did you battle this in, like, if so, like, were you able to overcome that selfishness?

Sure. Well, I'll say this. I think it's by God's grace that I didn't start writing until my fourth son was born and I was 40. Years old because I could very easily be a workaholic. Like when I love my work and it is a lot easier for me to just slip away and get on my computer. So 100% the battle is real. The struggle is real. I wish my husband could be with us right now because he does play such an important role. Maybe we'll talk about this in a minute anyway, but at the end of each chapter, there's a word to the dads from my husband. And I think he could speak to this right really well, because he is the first to admit that in the early years he did want to check out a lot. Not that he didn't love his kids, but he was going through medical school and residency while I was having babies. And when he finally had a minute of free time, he's always been very active. He's been a windsurfer, a surfer, a soccer player. So he would want to slip off and just do something to fill his own tank. And yet there were these little kids and a worn out wife that just wanted him. And so I think that he had to come to a place of asking himself what's going to matter most in the end? Can I lay down my life? Can I surrender the things I've always held so tightly to? And what he's discovered is absolutely yes. I mean, to this day he gets home from the hospital and the first thing he does changes his clothes and takes my 12 year old golfing, because that's his thing and that's not easy. He was as selfish of a guy as anybody else out there. So I think that all in parenting is, is a choice we make. It's not a natural, natural emotion or drive.

Yeah. It's killing the old self.

Yes.

It's killing the flesh. Right. Because I'll just speak for myself and a lot of this is given the nature of what I do. But I think this is true for most professionals. We get so much validation from the work we do in front of our laptops or our workbench. Right. And when your kids are young and you come downstairs and they don't want dad, they want mom, or they just don't thank you for things because they're little sinners. Like, that's hard. That's hard. But it's seen ourselves in that the God entered into our mess when we were the difficult ones to love. To me, I don't know. Another antidote to that selfishness.

Yes. And I think that if we can almost make that a discipline or a practice to stop and remember that this relationship we have with God through his son Jesus, we're really called to mirror that. That's our job to do that in the home. And there is no higher calm. So, yeah, I think that's a great way to look at it.

How do you think your approach to the work of parenting is different than that of a non believing mother? Right. Beyond the obvious ways of discipling your kids. Right. Like, what do you hope is different about you as you do this difficult holy work?

Yeah, that's a great question. I love that. I think that the whole heart and goal of it is different. I mean, I want to see my kids in heaven. I want to see my kids bring other people to heaven. And so I think that when I am walking closely with the Lord, when I'm up in the Word, before the kids are up, it's just on my mind all the time. So, yeah, there's a lot that looks the same maybe on the outside as far as just disciplining them, teaching them the manners, teaching them all the things that all parents do. But I'd like to believe that my motivation is really different because of eternity.

You talk in the book about this parent, I think you called it parenting out a commitment rather than emotion. Yeah, I think that's part of this. Right. I think that's different than the way I see frankly, some of my non Christian neighbors parenting. What do you mean by this idea of parenting out of commitment rather than emotion? And like, what does that look like practically?

Right. Well, again, I think it's, it's a challenge and we can all acknowledge that. I mean, first of all, to be really clear, I'm so far from perfect. I mess up all the time and my whole family, none of us are perfect. But I will say the challenge of parenting is that our kids, they're here all the dang time. Like you can't just show up and then clock off. But they see you when you're exhausted and you know, last moments of your day, they see you when you first wake up and haven't had a cup of coffee. They see you when you're angry or stressed. And so really what I believe happens is we're just being called to rise up and live the life we really know deep down that God's calling us to anyway. It's like this built in accountability and it's hard, but it's just sanctifying and it's beautiful. And so I think that parenting out of commitment is really being aware every day that these kids, I mean, they're Going to be shaped more by how you live than anything you say. So are you modeling all those things that you tell them will give them a good life? Can they look at you and say, wow, I want. I want a life like my mom. I want a life like my dad. I want a marriage like my parents. I hope that I love my work like my parents love their work. So I think that being aware and none of us are going to get it right all the time. Like, you can be real. And I guess that's part of it, too. I should say you want to acknowledge to them, hey, I'm fallen, I'm a sinner, I need Jesus every day. And maybe when we blow it, to just come straight to them and say, I just set a really bad example. Like, I needed to go back to Jesus and ask forgiveness and start fresh so that authenticity is going to inspire them much more than we could ever realize. Like, I think living out our faith very real in front of our kids is one of the greatest keys to raising amazing children.

Yeah. And showing them what it looks like to ask for forgiveness. I think that's a principle that applies to people who don't do the work of parenting. Right. Like, we should be the ones who are authentic and humble in our workplaces, inside and outside the house to confess our mistakes, to ask forgiveness, and to seek peace and reconciliation. Talk about. All of our listeners also struggle with working with difficult people. Let's face it, there's no more difficult people to work with than screaming toddlers.

Right.

What has that taught you about how to work with difficult people?

Man, Patience is such a virtue. And I think kids are really good at teaching us patience. And I really struggled when my boys were young. I've confessed before that I really discovered that I had an anger issue that was never revealed before children. And so I kind of got in a cycle where I was losing my temper, just letting it all out. Because you know what? Kids are pretty safe. They forgive us. They always seem to come back and love us anyway. And so they're a safe place if you're overwhelmed and stressed to just let it all out on them. And then I would come to them and ask forgiveness. And I share the story in my book Boy mom, that at one point, my oldest son, who's just precious, I asked forgiveness. And he looked at me and said, mom, I forgive you, but I don't know why you ask, because I know you're just going to do it again. And my heart broke. And that was when I decided to really get serious about overcoming my issues with anger. And I, I went for prayer and I got books and I did all the things. But what I realized was I have the Holy Spirit. I had the option to not get angry. I was choosing to be weak in, in my flesh. And so I realized that I could be around all these kids who were really pushing all the buttons and I could choose a different way. And I think through doing that, now you're out with other people and you've just built those muscles, right? You've built those self control muscles, you've built those muscles of patience and all the virtues. So I think parenting is the best way to grow us in character and prepare us to deal with difficult people.

Man, what you just said, like, really resonated with me. I could see my kids saying something similar to me. I struggle with this present tense. What steps do you take in the moment to access the power of the Holy Spirit, if you will, and choose patience over anger?

Yeah, well, I know every expert will say, you know, step away, count to 10, take your deep breaths, read all the things. I kind of started to play a little mind game with myself, which I think is actually really powerful. I don't know if I've ever talked about this, so this may be the first place I'm sharing it, but I used to imagine Jesus sitting in the room where my kids were. And I'll never forget a time where I just could hear them getting into trouble. We lived in a two story home and they were downstairs and I was just like, I've had it. I mean, it's hot in Hawaii and there were years we didn't have air conditioning and I didn't have much babysitting help. I mean, I was very alone and pushed to my limit. And I remember flying down those stairs, just ready to lay into them, and I remembered this new thing and I pictured Jesus standing at the bottom of the stairs. And suddenly I was able to regroup, I was able to gather all those emotions and be gentle and loving and yes, discipline, absolutely. Kids need discipline. But it was such a game changer. And I think this is a lot like when you're driving and you see a cop on the side of the road, suddenly you're able to slow down and think about your blinker and all the details. Well, I think if we recognize that God is present always, that we have his Holy Spirit, that he really is in the room, and then imagine that that's a cool little tool to use and, and sometimes just being able to tell my husband later, buddy, this is what I did. I made it like they were so bad and I was so calm. And just having that accountability, whether it's a spouse or a friend, can really help too.

It's so simple, but so hard. I can imagine. So helpful. So it's interesting, during my quiet times, I've never shared this publicly either. We're getting like, real raw, vulnerable here, Monica. Yeah, I've just been envisioning Jesus sitting in the chair across from me as at our dining room table while I do my quiet time. Like, I knew he's with me.

Yeah.

But we worship an unseen God, and that's hard for me to wrap my head around as such a literal person. And so I'm gonna try that with my kids. I think that's a great tip for anyone in any situation at work, inside or outside the house. Hey, speaking of other game changers, I loved this chapter in Raising Amazing where you're talking about some of these game changing tools you brought that are really common in the world of work, but very uncommon within family units. You talk about having a family mission statement. You talk about having a set of core values for your family, which I thought was really interesting. Talk about the value of these tools for intentionally leading your family.

Yes, this is a fun chapter for me because it's not my husband nor my natural inclination. My husband's a super laid back guy. And so we've never really thought along these lines. But as my kids got older, as I've been writing about parenting and studying it, I started to realize we put a lot of intentionality into everything from our workout plans, what we eat, our professions, we set goals. And I'm like, here we are, a family unit. Like, what in the world? And I also love that so much of the world is focused on branding and on, like, what's your. Your culture at work. And so I love to recognize that we as a family have our own brand. Whether you've ever named it or not, your family, whether you have a. An infant only, whether you're just pregnant or your spouse is pregnant or if you have a whole bunch of kids, there's already a culture there that you maybe just haven't put into words. And so I just think it's really helpful and a fun thing to sit down as a family and say, let's write out what are our family values? And if your kids are old enough, let them pitch in and say, what are some of the things that make us us? What gives us our flavor? And our family didn't do that until my Oldest son was home from college for his first Christmas break. But I got out the whiteboard and at first they all groaned and rolled their eyes, but we ended up having so much fun because it was like, wow, this is us. This is what makes the Swansons the Swansons. And then from there, take it as far as you want, write that mission statement. It took us a long time to get our mission statement written and then after that to start to put everything you do through that filter. Does this event, does this way of spending money, does this fit with who we want to be and who we are as a family? So I think it just kind of professionalizes our job as parents, which is really cool and I think can be really helpful for the kids, too.

My friends will, like, call me out when they see me do something that's quote unquote, off brand because they know that Jordan Raider has this for better or worse.

Yeah.

There's a brand around this personality that is genuinely me. Right. And. But I love that idea of applying that to a fan. That was actually one of my biggest takeaways. How has that been useful? Why do you point to that? Beg? No, this is. This is a helpful exercise, right?

Well, I would say probably the most practical thing that makes it important is that kids by nature want to belong to things. And we see that when kids hit those tween and teenage years and they're just dying to fit in somewhere. And, you know, we know the gang culture and we know all that, it's all about kids wanting to belong. And so if we give them something really great to belong to at home, if they feel like they have contributed to making their own family what it is, that they have a purpose and a role to play. You know, giving them jobs to do and purpose and meaning, they're going to be a lot more likely to identify with their family and not go searching for that somewhere else. So I'd say that's the most practical thing. Yeah. And as they grow up, that's going to be really important. They're going to need that more and more, especially as they hit those teenage years.

That's really good. Anytime I meet somebody with kids in those teenage years whose teenagers are walking with the Lord, or maybe they've been through that season and their kids are in their 20s, but they've stayed faithful, I always ask, I'm just like, hey, broad question. What did you do?

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

And I have been really blown away with the consistency of answers I've been getting recently. This is clearly the Holy Spirit Speaking through these people. To me, the answer I keep hearing is make sure your kids have other Christian adults in their lives that are not mom and dad. You talked about this in the book. Talk about why this is so important.

Yes. Well, I think just as kids grow up and part of that process is they might still love mom and dad, they might still respect us, but they do need outside in influences and they're going to find them. They're going to find them whether we introduce them to them or not. So I'm all about intentionality. I mean, we are a family that often hosts older kids, I'd say late teens to young adults. We are in a community where a lot of people, there's a lot of young adults. And so we will hand pick those who we know are making good choices, who love the Lord. We'll have them over for dinner, they'll get to know the kids, they'll start taking them surfing or diving. And so we're really intentional about surrounding our kids with people who we know have the same heart for the Lord that we do. They might be different, they might have different interests, which is great also just plugging them in to a good youth group. I know church youth groups can be a little challenging. Some people feel like they can do more harm than good. But in our case, we were blessed in this small community here on our island that my boys had two youth groups that both had really solid leaders and that was their entire social life growing up. I mean they were homeschooled, they surfed and then they went to youth group. But that really shaped them in so many ways. And they will look and they are still stay in touch with their youth leaders and they turn to them when they have questions that maybe aren't as comfortable as going to mom and dad. They'll go to their youth leader and they stay in touch even though they've moved far away. So it's really important. It has shaped my kids hearts to so much. I cannot say enough about the importance of good influences in our kids lives as they grow up.

As you were talking, I pulled open this quote that I forgot about that Tim Keller had written in this little tiny book he wrote called On Birth. Listen to this quote. He said, kathy and I are gratefully discovered that despite our mediocre parenting, our young teenage sons grew up with a very positive regard for the Christian faith. It was because this is what he credits. It was because they were surrounded in our church with young men and women in their 20s and early 30s who were accomplished in their Fields and attractive in their character, but also deeply committed believers. I just think that's so interesting, the vocational connection. Right?

It's like 100%.

Yeah. Talk more about that. Were your kids drawn to that?

Oh, for sure, absolutely. Yes. My older boys both knew that they wanted to go to college and they weren't sure what they wanted to study, but they were very drawn to those people who were doing excellent things. And I probably should have asked his permission to share, but I think you'll. You'll enjoy this. My oldest son has had a little practice that he does. You and my oldest son really should get together sometime because he is huge on imagination. Like, he is such a champion of the importance of imagination. And so he does these mastermind meetings. I've heard of them since he told me, but he actually came up with it on his own. But now I've heard of other people doing similar things. But he gathers in a room, you know, he actually gets the chairs out like you were talking about Jesus across the table. But he gathers the people who don't live near him. Some, you know, have lived and died by now, and he just knows through history, but some are people he knows now. And when he has a question, when he has something that he needs direction on, he will sit down and prayerfully invite the Holy Spirit to guide him and just go through the people that he respects the most and think, what would. What would grandpa say? What would this professor I had say? What would this person of history say?

I love this.

And he is guided by all the wisdom of the people that he has so much respect for. And he's just found that to be really helpful in decision making as a young adult.

I love that so much. I just think it makes. I think bringing impressive Christian professionals into the orbit of our kids makes our faith more credible to them.

Absolutely. Well, I'll share one more example. My husband works hard, but he's a doctor. And doctors are known for not necessarily being super business minded. So we would say that we haven't done the best job of teaching our kids, like, all the importance of finances and budgeting and investing. But we do have one friend who's just a genius in the stock market and he's just done really well. And he loves God and has a fear of the Lord and. And so we've been so blessed that our teenage boys have connected with him and he's taught them. And they meet for coffee and they talk on the Internet, and now they're away living independently. Both of my boys are far beyond we are with their own investments, their retirement account, they budget. And I'm like, thank you, Lord. Where we didn't do something, someone else filled in through God's grace. So yes, what you're saying is absolutely true, that he has great respect for this man and he's really come alongside and helped him. And I think hopefully, I like to believe these professionals enjoy that. They love to see a kid who ask questions. My son, who's a professional surfer at 19, he asks so many questions and I love that he has the courage to reach out to people he hardly knows to say, hey, what did you do in this situation? These are my goals. Will you give me some advice? And I think the guys he's reached out to just appreciate that he's asking.

Oh, if a kid ever like sends me an email, like, I've done zooms with seven year olds and their father, to be clear, and their father, unlike the art of writing, I'm like, it makes my day. We actually talked about this on your podcast, but the value of getting your kids to get jobs, early on you talked about this in raising Amazing. You argued this was essential to forming their character. Talk more about that.

Oh, man. I just think we don't realize unless we really stop and think about it how easy kids have it today. Like, I know I sound like an old lady, but it's not that long ago that kids really were waking up to whatever, milk the cows or they had to have a paper route at 4 in the morning or I mean, life was a lot harder even 50, 100 years ago. And I just think that when kids have it too easy and when I say easy, they've got three meals a day, they've got a comfortable bed, they have at least one adult who loves them. There's exceptions. There's some kids out there, there who have it really hard. But if that is your child, if that describes your child, they're probably going to grow up pretty soft in character, pretty weak when it comes to adversity. And so I'm just such a believer in making sure our kids face some challenges and if they don't have them, then creating them for them. And one good way of doing that is making sure they get a job. And my boys started out at a restaurant that has local owners who run a tight ship and they learn quickly how to show respect, how to follow orders without questioning. And so I think kids who get jobs away from mom and dad and we just let them. You gotta kind of enjoy as a mom and dad together seeing your Kid go out and just be like, oh my goodness, this is so hard, but it's so good for them. And don't let em quit either. Make sure they stick it out, at least for a while, unless there's some good reason to stop.

Did you read the book Grit? It's about a decade old, Grit by Angela Duckman?

Oh, did she do a TED Talk?

Yeah, she did.

I've seen her TED Talk, but I've not read the book. I should.

So it's all about, like, how to cultivate grit and perseverance. And there's this like, gem of a chapter on how this applies to parenting. It's so good. But basically she's like, she has a hard thing rule in her family, which we now have in our family, where all the kids have to choose something extracurricular. They have to practice it it a minimum of five days a week. They get to choose the hard thing. Right. But they have to stick with it until the end of the season if it's a sport or some other natural stopping point. Right? So for our kids, they're not in seasonal sports, so it's just a quarter for three months. You have to do this thing. But I love that. And it ties in with this idea of making kids get jobs. It's. Listen, work is a primary crucible through which God forms us and forms our character, right? But kids have got to stick with something long enough in order for that character formation to really happen, right?

Definitely, definitely. And the same goes for work inside the house. We have a busy household. I make everyone who's here pitch in. They have jobs to do. I hold a pretty high standard for getting it done well, because boys will find a way to slack off. But yeah, I think it's super important.

And I was on your podcast a few months ago talking about this picture book of mine, the creator and you. We were talking about what we teach our kids about what God's word has to say about their work. What have you and your husband taught your boys about what God's word has to say about their vocations?

I think that my husband has done an excellent job of. He's just got a really great eternal perspective. He's been camping out in Genesis for a long time, which I know you'd love. And so I think that just when you frame everything about your kids goals and dreams through eternity and just talk about what really matters and God's given you gifts, God's given you talents, but how can we look at these through the lens of eternal perspective? So I think it's just been an ongoing conversation. Our oldest son studied data analytics and now he's working in that field. But his mind is constantly going, like, what can I do? Eventually, like, this is good for right now. I'm thankful I have a good job. But you know what? I feel like there's a kingdom purpose that I could be using this for. So it's just fun to see them. And my son who surfs, really wanting to use his surfing for God's glory. And so it's. It's just a constant conversation, but an important one.

I love it. All right, Monica, three questions. We wrap up every episode with number one. If we were to open up your Amazon order history right now, which books would we find you ordering over and over and over again to give to other people?

Oh, man, it's a messy Amazon list right now. Amazon should love me. I really should start visiting the library. I keep saying, but yes, as far as gifts go. Okay, my friend, who I believe is your friend too, Wendy speak, love. Wendy wrote the 40 day feast, which followed. She has the 40 day sugar fast and the 40 day social media fast. I just love her latest book, the 40 Day Feast. And it's really just all about. Well, her question that challenged me and I love to quote, is why are so many Bible believing Christians, not Bible reading Christians? And so her heart is to point people to the importance of how desperately we need God's word and not to take it for granted. And so she walks you through that over 40 days. She's just a brilliant writer and did such a great job on that. I've also sent a book to a lot of people recently by Michael Hyatt and Megan Hyatt Miller called Mind you'd Mindset. I think they've. He's been on your show, but I just thought they did a great job of the, I mean, mindset I love. I could nerd out forever on, like, talking about mindset, but I think they've done such a fantastic job of simplifying and making really practical the power of our mindset. So I love that book.

It's a good answer. I like it. Who would you want to hear on this show talking about how their faith is shaping the work they do in the world?

Well, I think any of my sons would make great guests.

Let's do it. Let's go.

Yeah. I gotta say, my son, Luke.

Hey, I'm serious. I want John Tyson. John Tyson was just here.

Okay.

And he's like, will you please get a 20 year old on it.

There we go.

100%.

Oh, my goodness.

Yes. Let's go.

So my son Luke is 19. He's a professional surfer. As we speak, he's in Australia. Poor kid. Traveling the world. And yet he has just a. A precious heart and a love for God. And he's gonna be speaking at a big youth event in California. So I'm so proud of him. His first, kind of. Yeah. But I think Luke Swanson, you can look him up on Instagram. He does some pretty amazing surfing, but he'd be a great guest. He's fun to talk to.

So it's funny, you probably don't remember this. Last time I was on your show, you had, like, literally just gotten news. Oh, that.

I remember.

Luke made the Olympic team or something. Do you remember this?

Yeah, he. He won world champs. Junior world champs. Yes. Yes. That was crazy. And then I interviewed you and I was like, hi.

You were, like, geeking out. Yeah. Yeah. You, like, could not focus. Yeah, it was. It was great.

That was so much fun. Yeah.

All right, well, tell Luke he's welcome anytime.

Okay.

Monica, one thing from our conversation you want to reiterate to our listeners before we sign off. This audience of Christians, very diverse vocationally, a lot of them doing work outside and inside the home, what's something you want to leave them with?

I want to leave them with encouragement to really consider what's going to matter on that day that you take your last breath. When you're on your deathbed, what's going to matter most? And my husband sees a lot of people on their deathbed. He's a hospital physician and has to do a lot of end of life work. And he will tell you that there's no doubt that those who have children, grandchildren, people in their lives, close to them that love them, the relationships are what are going to matter most. Next to faith, of course, knowing where you're going. But your work is so important. And the work you do sets a great example to your children. But you will never regret a moment that you sacrifice something else for time and investment in your children.

Yeah, I talk about it this way sometimes. I'm like, scripture assigns so much value to both the work inside and outside the home. But God can choose anybody to do the work I'm doing outside the home. He's called me uniquely to be the father of my children. I'm not even ready to say it's more important. I don't think that's helpful. I don't even see biblical precedent for that. But it is unique. And so man, I should be way more intentional about that work than I am the work outside of the house, right? So Monica, I want to commend you for the extraordinary work you do of helping parents embrace that truth. Embrace all in parenting. Thank you for being fully committed to the war God has called you to as a mother and now as an author and speaker and podcaster. I said it once, I'll say it again. I loved your book Raising Amazing. Read the subtitle for us because it's so great. I can't remember it all.

Bringing up kids who love God, like their family and do the dishes without being asked.

Yeah, it's like the perfect title. It's like Ruthless Elimination of Hurry. Perfect title is so good. But seriously, a gospel centric book. An incredibly self aware and humble book which I really appreciate. A very honest book.

Thank you.

And supremely practical. I don't usually pitch books this hard on the show, but this one I will. Monica, thanks for hanging out with us today.

Such an honor. Thank you so much.

That was a risky episode for us. We really debated on whether or not to do it, but I think it paid off. I hope you agree. Guys, thank you so much for tuning into the Mere Christians podcast. By the way, if you know a 20something who you think would be able to have a really interesting conversation about how they're thinking about how the Gospel shapes their work, let us know@jordanrayner.com contact I'll see you guys next week. Hey friends, this is your last chance to claim all the amazing pre order bonuses for five mere Christians before they go away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9. I've never offered this many pre order bonuses on a book before, so when you fill out the form at 5mere Christians.com number one, you're going to be entered to win an incredible trip for you and a friend to tour C.S. lewis's favorite spots in Oxford, explore Ole Kirk Christiansen's former stomping grounds at Lego headquarters in Denmark, and much more. Number two, you'll be invited to join my first ever interactive reading, culminating in a zoom call with me and my co author on this book, Caitlin Cox. Number three, you're going to be getting a money back guarantee to try the book risk free. And number four, you'll also get access to a free course I'm not selling anywhere called how to write a book 10x faster and better with an Affordable co author author. You can claim all these bonuses in just two simple steps. Step 1 Pre order 5 mere Christians in any format you want. It can be hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And you can order it from wherever. Doesn't matter to me. STEP 2 Go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form of that page. And that's it. I'll send you all those bonuses. You'll be entered into the sweepstakes with one simple form submission. But hey, don't wait all of these off, all of these offers, all these bonuses. They're going away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9th. So visit 5meerchristians.com right now to claim your bonuses.