Nathan Carnes (Sales Director at Automation Hero)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back guarantee on this book. I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me, right. I know this is a very different biography. What is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right? So that's the first reason this is a risk and I'm gonna de risk this book for you. Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended. End quote. But here's the thing. In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on 5 mereChristians. Calm and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5merechristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Mere Christians podcast. Hi, I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors, we're not religious professionals, but we Work as climate scientists, couriers, and general managers. That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to Nathan Karnes, an experienced sales executive currently working in the technology industry. Nathan and I sat down and had a great conversation about how to build relationships with co workers when we're working in a virtual environment. We talked about how to move from the surface to the serious and to the spiritual with those co workers. We talked about how to respond to employers when they ask us to do something that's at odds with God's word. I think you guys are going to love this conversation with my new friends friend, Nathan Carnes. Nathan Carnes, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks, Jordan. Happy to be here.

Longtime listener.

I am.

First time call. I always love asking our longtime listeners about favorite episodes. Anything that comes to mind off the top of your head.

As you should. Yeah. Three specific ones, actually. Your recent interview with Mimi Chan with Amazon. Oh, man, incredible.

I've gotten so many texts about that conversation. What was it about that episode that resonated with you?

Yeah, well, first off, let me be transparent. I'm trying to read more.

Right.

That struck a chord for me there. My wife's a huge reader. I won't even tell you the amount of books she can go through in a year. But specifically, just from the book perspective, I just, really just loved her heart, just in the way that she came across and just humble leadership. Right? Yeah. And her, her focus just on leading her team and the interactions with her team. It was just super encouraging.

Who else you got on your list, Nathan?

Sean Coupland, Regent Bank. Yeah. And then David Green, Hobby Lobby.

Yeah, those are good ones. Yeah.

Business focused companies, obviously that I work with a lot. So very intrigued to hear their perspective and how they're leading their team.

That's a great list. If you haven't listened to those episodes, those are three excellent ones to start with. Hey, Sue, I was telling you this before we started recording. I couldn't believe when you reached out that we had never had a sales focused leader on the show. So I'm excited to dig into this because I think, you know, salespeople get a bad rap. Right. And we are going to get into some of the unique or perhaps just more acute temptations of your profession here in a few minutes. But I want to start by talking about what's good about your vocation. You're in a management role, a sales director role, but even think that work of the sales rep, lowest on the totem pole within a sales organization, contributes to God purposes for the world in that when done in a God honoring way, at its best, sales is a matchmaking service. Right. It is helping people get what they need in order to solve a problem. It isn't that one expression of loving your neighbor as yourself, Nathan.

Oh, it absolutely is. I think that's a great way to put it. And it gives you the opportunity to really develop relationships with people and really get inside their head and think, okay, what's important to you? Right. How do you tick? What.

What.

What makes you get up in the morning? Right. What encourages you? Right. And it really gives you a way to be able to develop deep relationships with people. So. Absolutely. Jordan.

Hey, so I'm sure the gospel, you know, you know, we talk a lot on the show. How does the gospel shape how we do the work that we do in the world? I'm sure you probably have a dozen different answers to that question. What's the first thing that comes to mind, though, when I ask you how your faith influences not what you do necessarily, but how you do the work that you do as a sales director?

On a daily basis, and I pray this every day, that the Lord would use me in any way that he chooses. But on a daily basis, I ask very pointed questions to people that I interact with. How are you doing? How was your weekend? Right. It sounds like you're stressed. Why are you stressed? It's being intentional with the questions that you ask. I'm very big about being authentically you. Right. Don't put a mask on. Right. I can tell you're struggling. I'm here to help you if you want any help. Right. So it's being. It's being someone that someone. Somebody else can confide in. And I think that's rare. And you don't see that a lot in the professional workplace. And I want to be able to be that person that somebody can confide in. So it really is very simplistic in nature. Right. There's not this grandiose thing that I do. It's just being authentically you.

Yeah. Does that come naturally to you? Because it doesn't to me. Right. Like, I don't know that. I've been seen, for example, when I was running this tech startup called Threshold360. I don't know that I was seen as a super approachable guy that people could confide in. So maybe some listeners resonate with what I just said. What would you tell them about how to position yourself as that person that people can come to and talk to about anything?

Yeah, that's such a great question. So let me share something that my pastor recently shared with me, and I share this as a point of encouragement for others. He recently told me, nathan, I see a gifting in you. And that gifting is that people are willing to open up to you when they're not willing to open up with others. And when your pastor says that, and maybe when others say that, there's a point of, okay, Lord, this isn't just something I think this is something that others see in me. Right. Yeah. What do you want me to do with this, Jordan? In my own life, I've seen that happen time after time. And to God's glory, he's used me as his vessel. Right. So to answer your question directly, it does come naturally to me. And the Lord has put me in companies and in roles and positions where I thought, what are you doing, Lord, I loved this job. I either was laid off or I had to find a new job for whatever circumstance that was. You have me here, and I've seen the Lord work and to move and going back to just being authentically you. I think that sometimes people struggle with, well, what if it gets back to my boss or HR that I was vulnerable with this person or I prayed with this person or asked them a spiritual question? I think people think about their identity, like the concept of, like, we are hidden with Christ and God. Right. Colossians 3. Where do you put your identity? And if we focus that our identity is in Christ and it doesn't matter what anybody else thinks about us, and you have this missional focus, right, that I'm going to love this person, even if it feels awkward, I'm going to love them the best way I know how to love them. And for all those that are listening, that's going to look different for you than it will maybe your friend, right? Or your coworker. God has wired us uniquely for the glory of Him.

So, yeah, I don't know if you've read, I have an old devotional in the Word Before Work. It's also available in podcast format about this idea of taking conversations with our co workers from the surface to the serious to the spiritual. And as you're talking, I'm like, that sounds like what Nathan's really good at about being intentional, about taking those conversations from that surface level. Hey, did you watch the game last night? To the series of like, hey, how are things at home? To the spiritual of, hey, hey, what are some of your spiritual beliefs? Am I reading that right? And if so, would you mind Sharing maybe an example that you can remember of how you've done this in the workplace.

Absolutely. I was recently on a trip with a couple coworkers, and we were actually having our quarterly business reviews, and we gathered together. It's a great time to get to know your colleagues. And I had the opportunity to go to Starbucks one morning with two of my colleagues who I became really good friends with, actually. And we were standing in line, and I forgot how the conversation came up. Jordan. But one of my colleagues said, man, I just don't get excited or jazzed about much, right? Like, nothing that I would go outside and hold up a sign for, you know, I just don't have anything. Like, do you have anything like that? Oh, man. When he said that, I was like.

Lord, to the softball right over the plate.

Here it is. Here it is. No, but I was able to say, yes, actually, I have something that I would, like, love doing that. Like, that's all about me. And my identity is wrapped in Christ, right? So being able to share the gospel with others and the transforming love of Christ and what he's done on the cross for us. And he's like, huh? And we just talked a little bit more about that, and then we moved on to other topics. But. And I'll share more about with him later if I have an opportunity with you today. But that's the biggest, biggest example in my mind where it's taking just regular conversations and using them to the glory of God. Right. And being tuned into that and praying for that. Right. Lord, give me an opportunity just to be me. I think I've struggled with in the past, Jordan, and maybe others have struggled with this, too. Well, I don't want to be clunky about it. Like, I don't want to be awkward. Yeah, right. I want it to be. I want it to be natural. And I think sometimes we. We try to force things that aren't very natural. Right? So just praying, Lord, in this regular, ordinary conversation, use me and help me not to feel like I'm forcing something that doesn't need to be forced, but just use me to share your love in whatever way that looks for this person.

But in my experience, it's not clunky if you have a genuine friendship with that person. Right?

Like, if you.

If you have a genuine friendship, you're just, like, talking about life. You're talking about what you value, what you love. Like, I don't know. I feel like that comes really naturally. So I'm really curious. I go back to this guy as an example, the guy you're staying in line with at Starbucks, right. My guess is he wouldn't have spoken up about, oh, there's nothing in life that really excites me. Had you not already built a solid relationship with that person. You work in a largely virtual environment, right?

I do. Completely virtual.

So how are you doing this? Like, how are you. I think this is a question a lot of people are asking. How do I build genuine friendships with those that I work with in a physical office, but especially in a virtual one? What have you done that's built that relational foundation? Nathan?

I love this question, Jordan. I'm an extrovert by nature. My wife would say I'm an extreme extrovert. I don't know about that. I like my quiet time, too. But I do get my energy off of people and in a virtual environment. And mind you, I have worked in an office in past jobs many, many years back, but I've been virtual for roughly four or five years now. And I love it. It all goes back to intentionality, right? It's easy to stay in your bubble. It's easy to stay on your island. You're in your office, no one's around you. So you have to be intentional. And as a believer, you have to ask yourself, how, Lord, how can you help me be intentional? Right? For me, it comes more easily. Like, I want to be around people, I want to talk to people. But just from a practicality standpoint, I. I make an effort to reach out to other teams, right? To get to know them. How can we use, you know, so I sell software, right, Jordan? But I need my professional services team who will help implement that software for customers. I want to get to know them, right? And naturally, as I get to know them and I engage with their business, I get to know them as a person. But you have to be very intentional about getting to know different departments, getting to know your colleagues that maybe you wouldn't interact with a lot and seeing how can I help you. And I think from a leadership perspective, too, and wanting to train and equip people, not only is it necessary, but you should also desire that, Right? And especially as a believer, even going even deeper, you should desire that as well. So intentionality is the key word there.

Yeah. So what does that look like? Like, you literally just like, slack people and like, hey, can we grab coffee? Virtual coffee this week to.

All the time. All the time. Yep.

Yeah. Like, you just make space for that on your calendar. I like that. I liked it a lot.

And you know what's? Really interesting. Jordan is through doing that, the Lord has worked and moved. He really has. And I give him all the glory.

How so give us an example.

Absolutely. I have dealt with folks who are depressed, who have had a family member die. I have had individuals who have literally said, Nathan, I have seen that you have slacked me and said you're praying for me. And no one has ever done that before. And Jordan, I had an opportunity with that specific person to share the gospel and pray with him and he was able to rededicate his life to the Lord. He had wrong misconceptions about who Christ was and his atonement. And I had an opportunity in person to do that with him. So God will work and move as you make yourself available for those moments of I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm going to trust you.

So yeah, yeah, no, that's amazing. And I've been ranting about this a lot lately. That friend of yours, the chances of him stepping through the doors of a church to recommit his life to Christ in this post Christian cultural moment are very, very slim, right? Very slim. But man, when you're working shoulder to shoulder with a mere Christian who gives you a reason to be curious about Jesus. Oh yeah, sure. That's the most natural thing in the world, right, Nathan?

Absolutely. And it really comes down to at the end of the day, the follow up, right? You plant the seeds, you share the gospel, the Lord's going to use you in whatever way he wants to use you for his glory and your good, right? But at the end of the day, it's that follow up. It's that really, truly making a disciple, right? It's not just about sharing the gospel once and then forgetting it about the person, right? It's that follow up and the engagement. How are you doing? How can I help you? One thing that's really frustrating for me is that a lot of these people live far away, right. I don't have the opportunity to interact with them on a day to day basis and take them to church with me and, and really, truly kind of live out my walk alongside them shoulder to shoulder. So it's more that phone call, that follow up, things like that. So if you have the opportunity to be able to do with someone with that far away, don't think that's any less than doing it shoulder to shoulder. Yeah, it still plays a huge impact.

Yeah, no, that's, that's really good. And I also think too, I want to wonder if you have something to say about this. You know, I think a lot of times we think about evangelism as exclusively that moment in which you explicitly share the gospel with this person you're talking about. Right. But like scripture seems to define evangelism far more broadly. Like Psalm 19 says that these stars declare the glory of God even though they use no speech. Right. The stars are evangelizing right now. And you, Nathan, in the 99% of the time that you're at your job, not walking through the romans Road, that 99% of the time is also evangelism. Right. It's giving evidence in how you act, how you sell, how you engage with your co workers of the type of God that you believe in, Right?

Absolutely. And you know what I think it comes down to, Jordan? Is being willing just to listen. I think that we struggle with, and I know I can struggle with this at times, is not liking the silence, right? Not liking the awkwardness of, well, someone's going through something. What do I say? I have to say something. I hope it's encouraging. And just listening, just being like, hey, if you just want to vent, if you just want to share your heart with me, if you're struggling, I'm here. Right? I think that for a lot of non believers and folks who don't have Christian friends, they don't have that. Possibly not saying they don't. Right. As a whole, but they don't have somebody just to sit there and say, you know, I want to listen, I'm going to listen and I'm going to be a brother to you right now in this moment. And the Lord has even used that. Right. So don't think you need to be polished. Don't think you need to have all the right words. Because I've heard countless stories and Jordan, I know you have too, of people who felt like they fumbled the gospel presentation and the listener heard exactly what they needed to hear and they came to know him. Right. Because it's the Holy Spirit working in and through you.

Amen.

It's nothing you're doing. You're just a vessel man.

I would encourage you listeners to metaphorically highlight what Nathan just said about silence. I guess really astute for you to point out. I do think in conversation silence is hard. Like not filling the gap of silence in every moment of a conversation is tough because there's vulnerability there. Right? But I think just being still, being quiet and sitting with that uncomfortable moment, to allow somebody to go a level deeper is really, really key. So I appreciate you, I appreciate you saying that. All right. We've talked through some pretty practical stuff about how to make disciples within the workplace. I want to talk through some of the unique temptations that you face as a mere Christian working in sales. And I think the first one that comes to my mind is just wealth. Right? Talented salespeople like yourself have the opportunity to make a whole lot of money. You've probably had the opportunity to observe what ballooning wealth can do to the human heart. I'm curious what specific harm you've seen wealth do either in your own life or maybe in the lives of others that you've worked with throughout your career.

Yeah, I love that question. It's definitely an ebb and flow, right? You cannot serve two masters, as the Scriptures say. Right. And I think that's a. That's a big temptation to say, especially in sales, Jordan, where you're just as good as your last number. Right? All these sales mantras that you know over the years, right. Always be closing. You're constantly trying to perform, and your identity can get wrapped up in your performance. And there have been many, many times throughout my career where I come out of my office from the end of the day, I shut my door, I look at my wife, and I'm like, oh, my goodness. I have to remind myself that my identity is in Christ, that I've died with Christ. Right? That my identity is not wrapped up in if a deal closes or a deal doesn't close, or if a customer likes me or a customer doesn't like me, like my identity is in him. But yet we can get so distracted by the noise, we can get so distracted by that paycheck or how much money you're going to make that year. And you almost have to remind yourself and ask yourself the question that you already know the answer to. Am I taking that with me?

Yeah. Right? Yeah. It's good. And I know. I know that temptation well. But there is a tension here, right? Because you want to hit great numbers primarily as a means of serving your employer, right? That's how you serve your employer, through the ministry of excellence. But at the same time, we can't confuse our net worth or our number with our self worth. How do you manage that tension? Well, yes, preaching the gospel to yourself and reminding yourself that you are worthy simply because you're an adopted child of God while still being ambitious for the work. How do you hold those two truths together?

So let me read a scripture that has resonated well with me, and then we can unpack that. Proverbs 37, 9 It says two things I ask of you. Deny them not to me before I die. Remove far from me falsehood and lying. Give me neither poverty nor riches. Feed me with the food that is needful for me, lest I be full and deny you and say, who is the Lord? Or lest I be poor and steal and profane the name of my God. This has been an impactful verse to me, Jordan, for multiple reasons. There is a responsibility as an employee to work heartily unto the Lord. Right. Meeting your goals, being a responsible worker. Right. With your day, honoring what you have to do in a given day. And sales is definitely go, go, go. Right. There's times where, you know, throughout a given quarter, there's. There's more work than other times right there. It's always an ebb and a flow. But I think at the end of the day, it's important that we remind ourselves. And I need to remind myself that, Lord, you've given me this job, you've given me this opportunity. Help me to steward my time. Well, your book Redeeming youg Time has actually been really, really impactful to me.

Good.

There's a quote in the book that you say, we're not here just to coast through life. We are here on a mission to glorify God by doing as much good for others as possible. And I love that. I love that.

Yeah. But it is holding that tension together. I mean, I love that you pointed to Proverbs 30. I actually wrote a devotional on this towards the end of my daily devotional. The word before work. Right. Proverbs 38 through 9. Give me neither poverty nor riches, but only my daily bread. Right. It's such a good reminder that God's producing the wealth. He's producing the performance. Performance that allows me to rest. Right. And step away from the work, knowing that even when I rest, I still have intrinsic value because I'm an adopted child of the King. Right?

Absolutely. And remembering it's His.

Yes.

It's always been his and it always will be His. Right. So it's reminding yourself, this is a gift that he's given me, Lord. Help me to steward it. Well, much like the parable that Jesus told. Right. Of the talents. Right. What are you going to do with this gift that you've been given with these talents? You're just going to bury it away. Right. And do nothing with it? Or are you actually going to invest it? Right. The Lord's given you a talent and a skill. And for me specifically, it's with engaging and building relationships with Others. And for you, it may be something completely different, but whatever your. Your gifting is, glorify God with that gifting. Don't just let it sit there and see what the Lord does with that.

All right, so we just talked through the tension, being ambitious for the work in order to serve our employer well, and this issue of identity. I want to talk through another tension, though, right? This tension between a desire to do great work that serves our employer well, that also has the potential to earn you a lot more income as a salesperson, and on the other side, Jesus's frequent warnings about the dangers of wealth. Because, Nathan, if you're really good at what you do, if you're so good, nobody can ignore you, right, you're going to earn a lot more money. That's. That's unique. That's not true of most people listening to this podcast. So how do you be ambitious for that work and check yourself against Jesus's warnings about wealth?

Yeah, and that's. And that's a question you need to. And a thought you need to really think through on a daily basis, right? As I mentioned before, there's. Sales is an ebb and flow. There have been seasons, Jordan, and I think it's very important to say this. There has been seasons, and there will be seasons moving forward where it's dry and you're like, lord, nothing's happening. I have a family to provide for. Where are you? I. I need your help, right? And this is going back to Proverbs 30, right? Just constantly praying that, right, Lord, you're going to give me what you need to give me. And the moment I need it, right? Like what I need, you will provide. And in the moments where it's abundant and the Lord is blessing your work, I believe he always blesses your work. But in the moments where you see the fruitful benefit of your labor, you rejoice and you say, thank you, Lord, for this, right? But we're all human, right? We all struggle. We all desire to want more. And that's the tension, right? This tension of living in the world, being inundated by everything. Billboards around you, commercials around you, saying, you need this and you need that. And having to remind yourself, like, once again, my identity is in Christ, right? These things don't bring true joy. Like, money will never bring true joy. Only Christ can bring that. And I think in sales, it's so easy to have your identity wrapped up in how well you perform. And if you hear anything, it's to know that your identity is not in your Performance, Your identity is not that you're the, you know, the top sales rep, that you made it to president's club every year. If you do, praise God, keep doing that, Keep doing good at that. But it's not all about that. So there is a struggle, there is a tension, and you have to remind yourself every day of that tension and that the Lord is there to help you through that.

I think connected to this idea, though, of wealth and greed. I've seen this in a lot of sales organizations. You're always trying to chase bigger numbers. And there's a great temptation not to outright lie, but I think to embellish the truth, which is a lie. To be clear, we don't treat it as that. Right. But just to embellish the truth in order to land deals. I'm curious if you've ever been encouraged to explicitly lie or embellish the truth in order to close business. And if so, how you've pushed back on that in a respectful but God honoring way.

Yeah. So by God's grace, I haven't.

Yeah.

At least that I can remember.

Have you ever been asked to do anything that's contrary to God's word, whether it's embellishing the truth, Orlando, or anything else?

Yes, yes, I have. And I can speak to that. So. And I also can speak to colleagues of mine that I've been centered around where I've seen it in action.

Sure.

Right. And this is very common. And this is the challenge of a. From a salesperson. Right. There are many people that have lots of walls up for salespeople because they think of, you know, their past experience with sales. And that can be a frustrating for someone like my. A frustration for someone like myself. Right. Who genuinely cares about people, who wants the best for people. Right. Yeah, absolutely. I've. I've been. I've been in situations where you want to make the numbers look better. Right. Or you want to make the solution do something maybe that it can't do, or say that it can do something that it's on the roadmap for later down the. Yes. Later on in the year. But hey, we can try to configure it to make it work. Right.

Oh, dude, I've sinned here quite a few times. All right, so you're getting pressure for people to do this. How do you push back?

Yeah, yeah. I think what's. What's. What's key is to be like, okay, so asking them a question like, so you want me to do this? You want me to tell them that we can, we can execute on this, but how are we going to. Right. Because I'm the face to the company. It's my relationship that I have with that person. So essentially what's happening is that if I say that I'm ruining my reputation with that customer. Right. So you have to be very, very careful. And I want to be, I want to do everything in a God honoring way. Right. So it's really pushing back and asking questions back to your boss or whoever's saying that you can do that and say, so you're asking me to do this, but how are we actually going to make that happen? And then at the end of the day, there's this concept of, okay, well if it's going against your moral framework. Right. Especially as a believer, like if it's something that's not honoring God, then I would say don't do it. Yeah, don't do it.

Clearly. But I think a lot of the times you can avoid getting to that point.

Yes.

And I think you're right. I think it's just asking questions framed in what's best for the employer over the long term.

Right.

Because especially in sales, a lot of times the, the reason to push for, you know, to embellish the truth about when a feature is going to be ready or whatever is all about hitting that month's number or that quarter's number, but framing it in, in, hey, this is bad for business because ultimately we know that operating a business in line with God's word is ultimately in the long term, best for business. Right. So I think being able to paint that long term vision is a really practical and effective way to push back. That's really good advice, Nathan.

Absolutely. And I've had colleagues who have left companies that were believers because they were, they were forced to lie or embellish the truth. So every person's situation is different. But you have to be bold. In the midst of, in the midst of a world where, you know, folks don't know the Lord. Right. And you cannot expect something out of them that you have yourself. Right. If the Holy Spirit hasn't changed their heart in their life, you can't expect them to look like you do. Right.

I would imagine you don't look like a lot of your co workers. And I'm curious, I'm sure they've spoken up about this before, like, hey Nathan, you're different because you do X or hey Nathan, why don't you do Y? What's the most common impetus for those questions? Like fill in X or Y. There, like, what do people notice most about you that is distinct because of. And of course, they don't know this at the time, but because of your faith in Christ. Yeah.

And I will say, man, it's so hard for me to talk about myself here, because I really do. And I'm not just saying this. I really want to give all the glory to God. Right?

Amen.

And I want to encourage other people. But what's happened? To answer your question, I've had multiple examples where one person, specifically the same individual at Starbucks, actually, he said, nathan, I've been really resistant to church. Like, before I joined here, I was really resistant to God, to the church. And I don't know how to explain it, but I want to start praying more. I want to start figuring out what I believe about God. And when he told me that, obviously chills, right? Just like, lord, you're doing a huge work. Right? And it really goes. It really just goes back to being available and willing to listen to people. And I've had multiple people ping me and, like, tell me one person specifically said, hey, Nathan, please be praying for my grandmother. She's. She's about to pass away, or she just passed away, or pray for my family, because my grandmother passed away. And I was thinking, have I talked to this person? I have to constantly ask me, have I been open with this person, that I'm a believer. And. And I'm just like, lord, you're working and you're moving. So then that gave me an opportunity with him to be able to share the love of Christ. Right. So hopefully that's helpful.

That's helpful. I actually wanted you to go a level deeper here because it's a very common scenario. Coworkers, grandmother dies. What does it look like to follow up there, to have a more spiritual conversation? Like, how did you reach out to that person? What was the next thing you said that was able to lead to a deeper conversation?

Yeah, there are moments, Jordan, where I take risks. And what I mean by that is I have a scripture verse in mind that I really believe that the Lord brings to my heart, that I send to them. And I said, hey, I just want to let you know that I'm praying this over you right now. How are you doing? I don't make it. I don't want to make it awkward. I don't want. I never want them to feel like they have to respond to a scripture verse or anything. How are you doing? Just know I'm praying this over you right now. Just things like that. Right. One Thing that's really important to me is to not make people feel stressed or awkward or pressured to respond to something spiritual. I just want them to know that the Lord loves them and cares for them and that I'm praying for them and they're not alone, right? So I try to do that and it's that constant follow up. I have another colleague, unfortunately, there's been a lot of deaths with some of my family members and colleagues. And I'm constantly saying, how are you doing? And I think a lot of times people, it's a tough question, right? Well, I'm doing terrible, right? But who is asking that person that on a daily basis? And I think that's what you need to remind yourself who's actually being intentional to follow up with that person. And even just saying, hey, I haven't forgotten about you. I'm still praying for you. How's your family doing? Is there anything I can be doing? Is there anything specific I can be praying for you right now? So it's really that follow up and just knowing that it's not about preaching the gospel once and then moving on. It's about this lifelong process of making disciples and asking the Holy Spirit to remind you daily to pray for that person. Because I'll tell you what, Jordan, I had moments when I, some of my first jobs of my career where I came in contact with people of very, very different faiths that I was praying actively for them when I was working there at those companies. And, and then I left the company and I forgot and I felt guilty and I was like, oh, Lord, I forgot to keep praying for them, right? So it's really leaning on the Holy Spirit and asking him to remind you to pray for those people who need Him.

It's good. It's really good. Hey, I can't let you go without touching on the industry that you're currently working in. This industry is stirring up a lot of controversy these days. Artificial intelligence. I'm really curious if you've thought about how your faith is shaping your views on AI, either positive or negative.

Yeah, that's a good question. I've definitely had some people when I tell them what I do, especially when I bring up these buzzwords like deep learning and neural networks. That's really, that's really scary stuff, right? Like, are you talking about the robots and all that? So, yeah, it definitely has an impact, right? It's an exciting technology. It's, it's growing so quickly. But there's this also, this component where companies that are focused so much on technology, try to be God, right? They try to try to do things, and maybe not specifically with AI, right? But you see this, you see people trying to be God in so many different ways. And I think what's important to remind myself on is God has given wisdom to people even under the umbrella of common grace, right? That we all live under, even the non believer, right? There's people that have wisdom, that can architect and build, build these incredible solutions. But you have to remind yourself that this is for a specific purpose, right? And to remind yourself that you as a believer, you're on mission to glorify God in everything that you do. So asking yourself, how can I use this technology to glorify God? And I want to share a story in relation to this very quickly. I had an opportunity to receive a call from a very well known seminary. One of the professors, and it's not my typical person I would talk to, but he told me that they unearthed some handwritten journals from Jonathan Edwards. Huh. In their basement.

Wait, wait, back up, back up, time out. Why in the world did you get this call? What's the connection?

I was wondering the same thing. Yeah, I was wondering the same thing. So I was like, okay, keep going. Like, I'm like wondering, where is this going here? This guy was like, really cool, right? I love, love talking to this guy and told him I'm a believer and I love their seminary, all that stuff, right? So he's like, Nathan, what we want to do is we want to use your technology to be able to decipher the handwriting in these journals so that we can better understand the life of Jonathan Edwards for a museum that we're putting together.

That's amazing.

And my response to him was like, in all my years of selling automation solutions, AI based tools, I have never come across a conversation like this. And I have so much excitement in working with you because now I can use my love for the Lord and my desire and passion for sharing the gospel and technology and we can work hand in hand together. So it was just a very exciting way to see how God can use things of this world, like technology to further his kingdom.

Yeah, no doubt. That's an amazing story. I've been thinking a little bit, not, not super deeply, I'm not ready to like write a devotional on or anything like that yet. But just a little bit about this connection between our faith and AI and it just comes back to the first commission God handed down to human beings in Genesis 1 to fill the earth, to subdue it and to rule it. When you really dig into the meaning of these terms, it's subdued doing the world in a way that makes creation more useful for other human beings. Benefit and enjoyment. Right. In a God honoring way. And I think AI can do that. Right. I think the danger is when AI is trying to take the humanity out of humankind. Right. When it's not about the flourishing of human beings, but it's about creating obscene amounts of wealth for a few people. Right. It's. So I. I think there's a tension there. And I'm excited to read more about this. I'm sure in 2023, we're gonna see 15 books on how the gospel shapes how we think about AI and I'm excited to read some of them. So, Nathan, you know the drill. We wrap up every conversation with the same three questions. Number one, I know you're not a big reader, but what books do you find yourself recommending or giving to others most frequently these days?

Well, I'm trying to read a book a month this year, so that's my plan.

That's a great goal.

Yeah. So the two books are Prayer by Tim Keller. That's played a phenomenal role in my life and just how I view prayer.

I need to reread this.

I need to too, I think multiple times a year. And then the second, the second book. And I struggled with the second book, but I think I'm going to go this route. The Intentional Father by John Tyson.

So good.

This has played a big role in just looking at the different types of ways that you can father your children and being intentional with everything that you do, going back to spending quality time, protecting your time, things of that nature. So those would be the two books.

That's one of the best answers I've ever heard to that question because those are two of the best books I've ever read.

That's awesome.

And I've got to go back and re. Repair. So I'm hesitant to say this. I don't know why I'm saying this. I think it's because we're recording this on February 7th, the day my friend Colin Hansen dropped his biography on Tim Keller. And I reached out to Colin a few weeks ago and I said, hey, I've had this idea rolling around in my head for weeks. I've decided I'm not personally going to take the lead and do it, but you should. So here I am publicly calling out Colin Hansen. Here we go.

Here's the idea.

I've been obsessed with this podcast. My listeners know I don't listen to podcasts, but I made an exception last year and I listened to this podcast called Every Single Album Taylor Swift.

Okay, okay.

It's basically the. The former CEO of Ticketmaster and this reporter at the Ringer who break down every album and it's. It's essentially a biography of Taylor's business mind and her career as seen through the albums. And so I emailed Colin, I said, hey, you're publishing this biography on Tim Keller. Please do a podcast called Every Single Book Tim Keller and go through each and every one with like a different co host and sign me up for the Every Good Endeavor episode. But man, I want to listen to an episode on the prayer book you just mentioned. I want to listen to an episode dedicated to every single Keller book. So anyways, Colin, I'm calling you out.

I love it.

Please do this. I can't wait to listen to this podcast. All right, Nathan, who do you want to hear on the show?

Absolutely. So husband, wife, team Kyle and Amanda Anderson are their names and they own a film company, production film company called Circa 24 Pictures. They have been incredible to work with over the years and I've developed a deep friendship with them and I'm calling them out. I think they would be excellent for this show.

We're just calling everybody out. Let's go.

Oh, yeah. Yep. Let's do it.

Just calling people out. I like this. Hey, Nathan, if you could only reiterate one thing from today's conversation before we sign off, what would it be?

I believe that it would be to trust in the Lord with all your heart. Trust that he will work and he will move as you're authentically you. And you can feel freedom as a believer to remove the mask of trying to be somebody that you're not. Remove the fear and trust Christ that He will work and he will move in your workplace and he has you exactly where he wants you for his glory.

Man.

That's good.

Nathan, I want to commend you, brother, for the exceptional work you do for the glory of God and the good of others. Thank you for reminding us that in Christ, Christ is our mask. We can take off the man made mask of success and using our work to position and posture and make a name for ourselves because we have been clothed in in Christ. Thank you for being transparent about the temptations in your craft and how God's word is leading you through them. Guys, like any good sales director worth his salt, you can find Nathan Karnes on LinkedIn. Of course, he's pretty easy to find there, Nathan, Is there anywhere else that people could find you easily?

To be honest, LinkedIn's great. I'm starting an interview series on all things intelligent automation with a buddy of mine, so YouTube coming soon.

Dang that. That sounds cool.

It's going to be fun. It's going to be fun. So LinkedIn. I'm active on LinkedIn every single day.

Of course you are. You got to be. Nathan, thank you again for joining us, brother.

Thank you. Jordan.

You know how we found Nathan Carnes? He found us. He recommended himself to come on the show, which we love it when you guys do that. If you think you've got something compelling to say about how the Gospel shaped your work, we want to know about it. You can find me@jordanrayner.com contact and fill out the form there. Guys, thank you so much for tuning in to the Mere Christians podcast this week. I'll see you next time. Hey friends, this is your last chance to claim all the amazing pre order bonuses for five mere Christians before they go away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9. I've never offered this many preorder bonuses on a book before, so when you fill out the form@5merechristians.com Number one, you're going to be entered to win an incredible trip for you and a friend to tour CS Lewis's favorite spots in Oxford, explore Olay Kirk Christiansen's former stomping grounds at Lego headquarters in Denmark, and much more. Number two, you'll be invited to join my first ever interactive reading, culminating in a zoom call with me and my co author on this book, Kaylee Cox. Number three, you're going to be getting a money back guarantee to try the book risk free. And number four, you'll also get access to a free course I'm not selling anywhere called how to write a book 10x faster and better with an Affordable co Author. You can claim all these bonuses in just two simple steps. Step 1 Pre order 5 mere Christians in any format you want. It can be hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever and you can order it from wherever. It doesn't matter to me. Step 2 Go to 5meerchristians.com and fill out the form of that page and that's it. I'll send you all those bonuses. You'll be entered into the sweepstakes with one simple form submission. But hey, don't wait all of these off. All of these offers, all these bonuses, they're going away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9, so visit 5merechristians.com right now to claim your bonuses.