Rachel Marie Kang (Poet + Author of Let There Be Art)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back.

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Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended.

End quote.

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Hey everybody. Welcome to the Mere Christians podcast.

Hi, I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians?

Those of us who aren't pastors or Religious professionals, but who work as auditors, hairdressers, and dental assistants.

That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to Rachel Marie Kong.

She's a poet and author of a.

New book called Let There Be Art.

Rachel and I recently sat down to.

Talk about what it means to fill.

And subdue the earth per God's command in Genesis 1:28.

We talked about the intrinsic goodness of any work that helps, heals, entertains, or redeems. And we talked about why Rachel is intentional about doing work that nobody will ever see.

Please enjoy this conversation with my new friend, Rachel Marie.

Call.

Rachel. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast.

Hey. Hey. Thanks for having me today.

I was telling you before we start recording, my assistant is very sparing in her praise, but she was losing her mind over your book, Let There Be Art. So I. I can't wait to talk about this book. It's a topic that I'm really passionate about. But your path to publishing this book was a pretty long and winding one. Can you share a little bit about that journey with our listeners?

Yeah, definitely. I'll say it was long, winding, and very unusual. Yeah. So I, you know, officially, I started out on this publishing journey, say, 2012. First time. I thought maybe I have something to say. Maybe there is a book in me. In and through rejections and redirections, I spent the last few years just working on my craft and working on my book idea up until 2020. And we all know we 2020 signifies. And so it was in that season where, you know, the world is just. There's so much going on and there's so much uncertainty. My family, my husband and I, we decided that that might be a great time to have another kid. And so we tried. And I got pregnant and just decided that, you know, that would be a season where we'd focus on our family. You know, everyone's home, you're together. And so I decided that for my writing for this book, I would lay that down. I would not be pursuing that anym. I wouldn't be perfecting my book proposal. Well, it just so happened that that summer, we also, all of us, I mean, we, all of us were walking through some racial tensions in this country. And so around that time, I had written some words. It was actually around the death of George Floyd. I had written some words, and those got picked up by an editor. And so I was on this pathway to publishing that I didn't pursue it, but I love to tell people I was prepared. I had spent 10 years working on this concept and this idea that morphed and, you know, it shifted and changed. But 10 years spent working on something and building it and chiseling it down. And so I was ready when that opportunity came and that invitation and that became the book that I now have out today, which is Let There Be Art.

So basically, when you stopped trying to get the deal, God brought you a book deal.

Basically, that's how it happened. Without an agent, by the way, before.

All of our CPA and lawyer friends check out this conversation, can you define art for us in your own words? Because I really love how broadly you define it in the book.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Art is. Oh, my gosh. I know that word trips up so many people. Right. But I really do believe that art is anything, anytime. That we are cultivating ways of making things that are beautiful, things that are new, and things that are just. It gives us space for exhale, Right. And expression. And that might look like a painting as we all. You know, when you hear that word, that's what pops into your head. And that might look like a children's book. Reading a children's book, even partaking in the art of someone, the art that someone else has created that might look like. I so enjoyed writing chapter 12 of my book, Let There Be Thought, which is this idea of, like, even our thinking, there's so much creativity in the way that we think and in the solutions that we come up with in this world. And so how do we tap into that and own that? That. Yeah, we might not be dancing across some stage, but someone out there is researching sicknesses and illnesses and trying to find a cure. And that's wildly creative. And I think that. Giving that an adjective, right, that anything that is reduced, redemptive about these things that we do and make and create, that. That is art. And that is good art.

Yeah, it's good. I wrote about this in my book called To Create five years ago, that if we believe that we are made in the image of the creator God, then it is impossible to have a creation optional being.

Right.

Like, we all have creativity embedded in our DNA. And in your book, Let There Be Art, you wrote that all of us, even the CPA and the lawyer, have, quote, been made with the capac, create not just works of art, but a world that reflects the very nature of God. End quote. Go a little deeper there, Rachel. Right. Like, how can our work, quote, reflect the nature of God?

What do you mean by that?

Yeah, Well, I think I'll talk about my title to Answer that question. When. When it came to me. I'll just say that because I remember where I was sitting in my car and I was like, I'm not leaving this car until I have a better title. But essentially, like, when that came to me, I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, this resonates. This is good. Because there's such a dual meaning here. It's like, yeah, let there be art. As in, here's all the permission that you could ever need or want to do the things that you want to do, right? Let there be art. Here's your permission slip. But also, let there be art. As in, let's mirror what happens in Genesis when God speaks. Let there be light. What is he doing in that moment? He's demonstrating control. He is pushing back the boundary of darkness and allowing light to illuminate, to win, to overpower this darkness. He's setting a boundary. And I thought, oh, my gosh, if God is doing that in and through the act of creating, then perhaps. Perhaps we can do that too, right? And so then it becomes this process and this act of, well, I'm creating, I'm sharing this work of art. I'm partaking in this process. I'm cultivating creativity, whether it's being seen or. Or not by others. Not simply because I am making something beautiful or I'm making something that's going to be on display in museums or on stages, but because this is bringing me peace. This work, this product, this business that I'm building and creating, it's bringing help into the world and hope into the world. And in and through that, we. We are pushing back the darkness. I'm nothing new under the sun, right? Like, I'm not speaking something hugely crazy and wild, but, like, I just thought, what if I just centered my book on that? Maybe the CPA and the lawyer and the thinker and the mathematician and the poet who is unpublished, and the mom who's tucked away in her home and doesn't have a job or work and is wondering, well, where's my value and where's my purpose and how do I contribute? You know, how do I make things and where's my creativity? What is that? Well, all those things and ways that you are creating a safe space in your house, all those pillows, all those candles that help welcome strangers into your house, you're not just making a pretty home. You're pushing back the darkness in someone's life potentially. You're allowing space for light, for hope, for healing. And that is the way of God.

That's good. You wrote, quote, any and all art. I think we could also substitute the word work here.

Yes.

Helps, heals, names, entertains or redeems. Is good. Tell us how.

Yeah, this goes back into, you know, that. In that part that you just quoted, I am also kind of elaborating on something that Madeleine Linkel writes about and walking on Water, you know, a message that a lot of us know about. And so this idea of, like, by and through the act of creating and our art, we are essentially, we're taking this kind of chaos and we're giving it order. Right. And I think we all can attest to how. How we feel that and how that makes us feel and how good that is to live in places and in a world where there. There can be some sense of order. And so, yeah, I think that songs that help us make sense of, oh, my gosh, here's this chaos that's happening, here's this conflict and. And what can we do? How can we embark on our journeys? What kind of friendships are we cultivating? The work that we do, as you say and as you write in your messages, how can these things be redemptive and good? They help make sense of. They help bring order. And that's good work. That is good work.

I was reading a commentary recently on Genesis 1:28, the cultural mandate, where God issues this first commission to humankind to fill and subdue the earth. And it was written by Wayne Grudem, this renowned theologian, editor of the ESV Bible. And he says that that word subdue, that God commands Adam and Eve to.

Do, means, quote, to make the earth.

More useful for human beings benefit and enjoyment, end quote. And so, to use your language, Rachel.

Right, any and all work that helps.

Heals, entertains, or redeems, so long as it's in accordance with God's commands, is.

Good because it's helping to subdue or make the earth more useful for human beings benefit and enjoyment. I think it's that simple. And I think that removes the pressure.

To have to give a religious justification for everything we do in our work. Right?

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I love what you're saying. You know, I have to say one of the books that I've been loving in this season is Creation Rediscovered by Jeffrey Leonard. He is a Bible scholar at Samford University, and he writes, humankind is charged, and this is of Genesis 1. Humankind is charged with the job of bringing creation under control. But this can only be the case if creation is conceived of as still being out of control in some measure when the humans are created. And indeed, this is precisely what Genesis 1 describes. While the world God creates is declared by its creator to be good, there remains in it a sense of wildness and chaos that must yet be controlled. This is the task entrusted to the humans with the commands to rule and subdue creation. Yeah.

So good. And that's what lawyers do.

Yes, they do.

CPAs do with numbers, and mathematicians do with.

With numbers and artists do to make the world more useful. I love how you pointed out in the book that God gives our work, quote, worth, that precedes the opinions of others, end quote. What do you mean by this? Talk a little bit more about this.

Yeah, well, I, you know, I wrote that. I think I was able to write that because I spent so many years creating in the private and just enjoying that. I often tell people when I was younger, I didn't want to be a writer. Actually, that wasn't on the radar. I think I'd wanted to be a dentist at one point and then, you know, a famous rock star, literally. But being a writer and writing books when I was younger, even in high school like that, that wasn't really. That didn't hit me until, you know, a specific season. And so when I was writing and when I was crafting poems and, you know, writing songs, I was doing so without this goal or thought of being seen somewhere or someday. It was all just pouring out my heart, expressing my emotions and my thoughts and making sense and making order of what I was seeing in the world and in myself. I think that's such a huge part of how I was able to write that line about, you know, it really is about him seeing us and the things that we do. And he assigns our worth well before anyone else does. And I think that that's. That's a huge trip up for a lot of people because when you do think about art and when you do think about creativity, it's almost as if there always has to be this end goal, this product. Right. And at the risk of sounding cliche, we do often forget that perhaps just that process is what's important. And being seen by God in that process, that's what matters.

I think God cares way more about. He doesn't need us to attain any result in our work. Right. At the end of the day, what does it say in job 42? His purposes will not be thwarted. His purposes will always prevail. It says in Proverbs.

Right. And so he doesn't need us to attain any specific result.

I Think he's far more concerned about.

Who we are becoming.

Yeah.

As we go about the process of creating the end result. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. And even too. Even just in that it's like it doesn't even always have to be about who we're becoming. Sometimes it can be just about that communion which, you know, when you spend a coffee date with someone, maybe there's a goal, but sometimes it's just about connecting with that person and knowing them more and knowing them better and deeper and loving them more because of that. And I think we miss that. Like, we think going to church and worshiping that that's how you connect with God. But there all these million other ways that we can do that and consequently our art and cultivating creativity that provides that pathway for fellowship with God.

Yeah.

Talk a little bit more about what you mean by that. How does the work that you do, creating books, creating poems, creating art, whatever. Are you saying you feel closer, connected to God as you do that work? And if so, what does that look like a little more tangibly?

Yeah. Well, maybe people will feel closer. I certainly do. Sometimes I think that for me personally, when I'm able to look face to face at the things that are inside of me, the thoughts and the emotions, you know, and there could be a tendency to be overwhelmed, like, oh my gosh, I'm such a horrible person to be thinking this or to have this thought in my head or this emotion to carry this. But I think that when you. You lay that all out and maybe that's, you know, again, maybe that's. You're chopping up vegetables in your kitchen and all these thoughts are coming, but that instead of being overwhelmed by these things that we find inside of ourselves, we can bring that to God. We can pray through those things. We can worship him for the good that we see or that we're experiencing. Maybe we're feeling joy. It's not always bad. Maybe we're feeling joy or awe. I'm feeling awe in this season. And so, yeah, I think that sharing those moments with God, telling him about them, putting them on display, if that's journaling, if that's writing, if you're a scientist in a lab and you've just discovered something and worshiping about that and being excited about this discovery, that brings him glory. And so, yeah, I think those little ways, and oftentimes this will be hidden, you know, but there's an opportunity there.

Yeah. I want to go back to this idea that God gives our work worth, that precedes the opinions of Others. Because this is so contrary to the way that we think about work today. Right? Work is the primary means by which I achieve and attain applause from the world. Right. And how a lot of people get self worth, how practically do you stay cognizant of this truth that God has already given your work worth before you go to work and achieve any result? How do you preach that truth to yourself on a regular basis?

Yeah. Yeah, that's good. I hope this will answer this question. So, as a writer, I have found that that is now my work. That's only happened in like the last two years. It just happened. And now this thing that I have loved for all of my life to do, and it's been such a private process for me, it's now so public and it has merits with it. Right? There are book awards and you get paid for doing things. And so I have been trying to practice other forms of either creativity or, you know, work without recognition that is unseen, to try to keep my heart in that place of like it matters that I do this for myself and for my relationship with God. And so there are photographs on my DSLR camera that no one will ever see. And there are sketches in my journal that no one will ever see. And there are ideas for businesses and ideas for, I don't know, the world drafted up in my Google Drive that no one will ever see. I have found that doing those and even the work that I do with my children, I can only share so much in my stories, right? I can only tell so many stories about my kids in my books and on my Instagram and on my blog. But there are moments and I'm trying to treasure those that happen behind the closed doors of my home that no one will ever see. And I am trying to find my worth and my joy and my awe and even communion with Christ as I experiment with those and live them out, if that makes sense.

This is really interesting to me. So you're intentional about these things not being seen?

Yeah, I am. Yeah.

So explain why this is fascinating to me.

Yeah, I mean, I think I maybe. I don't know. I don't know if this can be chalked up to personality or. Or this truly is a practice of mine. But I mean, it. It brings me back to the days pre Instagram. You know, I'm not. I mean, I'm young, but I know what it's like to live before Instagram too. You know, and those days where I would cut class and I would not recommending that you cut class, but I would Cut class and go to the music annex to play music, to work out my emotions. You know, those journals that I kept, I don't do much journaling these days, but when I did journal, those were all pages that no eyes would ever see. And so I think, in a sense, I'm trying to crawl back to that, you know, and like I said, writing. Writing is really no longer an option for that because it has become work in the season. And it's exhausting to try to work and write and then to. Outside of that, to write for pleasure. And so I've. I've really tried to find some other things to do that with.

I think there's probably a sense that the things we do in secret that nobody will ever see can lead to deeper communion with the Father, knowing that he alone sees them. Right.

It's an. It's an intimate thing.

It's this thing that only me and my Creator are seeing. Does that make sense to you?

Well, absolutely. And here's the thing. We do this, or we're supposed to do this with our praying, right? And we do this, or we're supposed to do this with our worship, our singing, and we do this, or we're supposed to do this even with our giving, right? This idea that we are doing these things not to be seen by others. We don't pray loudly so that others can see just how worthy and esteemed we are. But these things, we. We do them in the secret. And at the risk of sounding cliche or trying to wrap it up with a pretty bow, Jesus did these things, too. He often got away and was alone. And I don't know if he wrote songs or, you know, recited prayers off the top of his poetic prayers off the top of his head. I can't say that he painted paintings, but there was something about just getting away and being alone and being with God. And so if it helps you to do that by keeping your fingers busy and knitting, then do that. And if it helps you to do that by taking pictures and capturing beauty and then being able to share that moment with your Creator, then so be it, you know?

Yeah. The root of this conversation is something that Makoto Fujimura talks a lot about. I know you're a big Mako fan. Mako was on the podcast in 2022 talking about kind of our over obsession with purpose and function.

Like this idea that everything has to.

Have a utilitarian purpose to it or it shouldn't be done.

Right, Right.

You're talking about the very opposite of this, like, pushing against this.

Yeah, Right.

I don't know. For me, I've been dwelling on this.

A lot over the last couple of years.

Just the fact that God himself shows.

Himself working for the pure joy of it.

It.

Right.

In Genesis 2, he made the trees useful for food and beautiful. They didn't need to be beautiful.

Right.

But he made beautiful. The New Jerusalem is a good example. 29 million feet of precious stones line the base of the New Jerusalem.

There's no function. Right.

Just because he wanted to do it.

Yeah. And I'll. I wanted to say this, you know, I remember in youth group I had this one amazing youth leader. He's like the coolest person I know and still is. And he gave this message one night talking about the baptism of Jesus and where Jesus comes from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. And he gets baptized, right? He comes up out of the water and the Spirit of God descends like a dove and says, this is my son, whom I love. With Him, I'm well pleased. Right? And the message was, Jesus didn't do anything at that point in his ministry. Like, that was the very beginning of his ministry. He didn't heal, he didn't save anyone yet. Like, that had all yet to happen. And yet God says to his son, I'm pleased with you, before he's done anything miraculous or crazy wild. So I think that also speaks to, like, how we can exist in this world is that obviously there's work to do. And it is good work. Right? Because it is redemptive work and it reflects the heart of God. But even before we put a finger to any of these things, whether it's work or art, God loves us. He's pleased with us, and there's something to that listener.

If you tune in every week, you've heard almost those exact words about Jesus baptism from a couple of different guests. I hope you didn't fast forward through it. I hope you sat with it and realized clearly the Holy Spirit's talking to you about this. I want you to hear this particular word, that God loves you before you do a single thing for him in the advancement of his kingdom. And paradoxically, that's the thing that should lead us to be wildly ambitious to do the work. Not because he needs us, not because we need anything from the work in order to please him, but just simply as an act of. Of worship, as a worshipful response to his love. Hey, Rachel, three questions we wrap up every conversation with. Number one, which books do you find yourself recommending most these days?

Definitely creation rediscovered by Dr. Jeffrey M. Leonard. Like I said, he is a Bible scholar at Samford University. And that book wrecked my world in all the ways that I rest and work. So to everyone listening, go get that book.

Great.

Great.

It's a great suggestion.

Hey, who would you most like to.

Hear on this podcast talking about how their faith shapes their work?

Okay. I'm so excited about this question. I really want to hear you talking to my friend Stephen Roche of Makers and Mystics. I don't know. He is also author of Naming the Animals, An Invitation to Creativity. You guys would have such a stellar conversation and I know your listeners would just gobble up everything that he says, so definitely have him on.

That's a great tip. All right, I'll be reaching out and hey Rachel, what's one thing from our conversation you want to reiterate to our listeners before we sign off?

Definitely. Well, I want to speak to the mere Christians and that's all of us, right, that we can create as a way of pushing back the darkness in our lives and in this world. And you can start right where you're at. You don't need to be famous. You don't need to go out and buy all these, you know, expensive fancy tools and gadgets. You can start right where you are. And if you need help with that, my book will help you. And I know that this podcast certainly will.

So it's a good word. Rachel, I want to commend you for the terrific and creative work you do every day for the glory of God and the good of others. For reminding us of the intrinsic goodness of our work and the value of simply being with God as we do the work. Guys, the book is Let There Be Art. You can pick it up wherever books are sold. Rachel, thank you so much for hanging out with us today.

Thanks for having me. Honored to do this with you, Jordan.

I hope you guys enjoyed that episode. Hey, if you've got somebody you'd like to hear on the podcast, let me know@jordan rayner.com contact thank you guys so.

Much for tuning in this week.

I'll see you next time. Foreign.

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