Randy Alcorn (Author of Heaven)

The episode you're about to listen to was released back when the Mere Christians podcast was called the Call to Mastery. Now, if you love Mere Christians, you're still going to love these older episodes because the majority of each conversation focuses on how the Gospel influences the work of our guests. With that disclaimer out of the way, please enjoy the episode. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I'm Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. Every week, I host a conversation with a Christian who is world class at what they do vocationally. We talk about their path to mastery, their daily habits, and how the Gospel of Jesus Christ influences their work. Today's guest doesn't need much of an introduction. Today we're talking with Randy Alcorn. He's the New York Times bestselling author of more than 50 books, including Heaven, which is one of the most life changing books I've ever read. You've probably heard me mention on the podcast many times before, that book alone has been translated to something like 70 languages, sold millions of copies. Trust me, Randy is world class at what he does. He's a prolific writer, and today he's the founder and director of Eternal Perspective Ministries. Before that, he was a pastor for 14 years. Obviously seminary trained, knows what he's talking about on this topic. So Randy and I sat down. We recently talked about the difference between Heaven and the new New Earth and what it means for our work. We talked about the two terrific questions Randy asks when he's trying to evaluate requests for his time. And we talked about the very real tragic situation that Randy and his wife Nancy are going through right now with Nancy's fight with cancer and just talking through the resolute hope that the Gospel provides in the face of those kinds of trials. This is a really special episode. Please enjoy this conversation with Randy Alcorn. Randy Alcorn, truly a pleasure to have you on the show. Thanks for being here.

Hey, it's a pleasure to be with you, Jordan.

So I read in your bio you're an audiobook lover. I am, too. So I'm curious. I know I'm a stickler for narrating my own audiobooks. Is that true for you?

I have narrated the great majority of my audiobooks. There have been a few cases where time just has not permitted it. My wife has some health issues, so in recent years, there's been a few audio books. I just haven't been able to take the time to do all. I love doing it myself. I feel like I know exactly what I should emphasize.

Right, right.

The words in the sentence that sometimes, every once in a while, I'll hear a great, great audio reader of one of my books who understandably didn't. Didn't know the right thing to emphasize. And it kind of drives me nuts. So, yes, I'm a stickler in that sense. I want to get it right. I've spent lots of times in studios here in the greater Portland area, and sometimes I've travele. I don't like to travel to record audio. It's almost never necessary anymore. But, yeah, so I would say probably of my nonfiction books, 80 to 90% of them. Yeah. I've recorded now. Fiction's a different story.

Yeah.

That's a whole different ball. Yeah. Yeah. You. You've got to have real talent to do accents. Right.

You know, which I could never pull off. Yeah. I will say I was surprised how much I enjoyed the process, but it's also by far the most exhausting two days of my life. And all you're doing is talking, but you're standing. I like to stand and do it. I don't know. It's an exhausting thing, but. All right, all right. On to more. Much more significant things.

Let me interject one thing on that, though. The audiobook by far that I most enjoyed recording is my book, Heaven for Kids. It's not that long of a book, but the great thing was because, you know, you're sitting there by yourself, and there's a editor, studio recorder guy that you can maybe see through a glass. You're in this soundproof room by yourself. It's you and the Lord and your imaginary audience. Now it's a real audience, but for the moment, it's imaginary because you're not seeing them. And so here I am speaking to kids, and the entire time I'm picturing my grandkids that sitting right there in the room with me. And that was an absolute delight. The time just flew by.

That's fascinating. Fred Rogers, Mr. Rogers was really good at this. He was able to visualize kids on the other end of that camera. He would talk a lot about this in interviews. It was fascinating. I'm so glad you brought up Heaven, because you've had some incredible books, a lot that are on my bookshelf, But Heaven is by far been the most influential to me, Sold, I don't know, well over a million copies of that book thus far. I actually don't know, though, what was the impetus for writing the book. Like, why did you finally say, I need to tackle this enormous topic?

The seeds of it go back to when my mom was dying in 1981, and I would come to her bedside every day and read to her the last two chapters of the Bible, Revelation 21 and 22. And then I. It dawned on me. I'd gone all the way through Bible college and seminary, both at. And not one time in one class had we had any kind of extended discussion of or teaching on the subject of the new earth. And I thought, this is where we're going to live forever. I mean, I've heard way more about the present heaven, though much of that tends to be a little more speculative, like what's going on right now with people who are in the presence of God. We know they're conscious when they're with the Lord, to. To be asked for the bodies, be present with the Lord. We know there's communication, there's dialogue, there's consciousness, all of that. And we know some other specifics, but we actually know far more, or should know far more that God has revealed to us about the new earth. The prophets who speak of it, and we know for sure they were speaking of it because they're quoted Specifically in Revelation 21 and 22, the last two chapters of the Bible, which are like a mirror image of the first two. It just hit me, not only in the experience with my mom, but years later when I was a pastor and then when I was writing. I have so many conversations with believers who say they believe in the resurrection, but they don't believe in the resurrection because they'll say things like, oh, my daughter who died of leukemia. And it's this tragic story. And this dad is crying and he's telling me, and I'll never be able to put my arms. Arms around my daughter and hug her again. And I said, wait a minute, you've been telling me you're a believer. Your daughter is a believer. Okay, so why would you say that? I said, don't you believe in the resurrection? Oh, sure, I believe in the resurrection. We all know we're supposed to believe in the resurrection. But if you don't believe that you will ever hug your daughter again, your physical body, her physical body, then you don't believe in the resurrection.

Right? Paul makes that pretty clear in 1 Corinthians 15. So, all right. For those who haven't read Heaven, because, by the way, I had never. I was shocked. I grew up in the church. I went to a Christian school for 13 years. Randy, I don't think I heard anybody talk about the new earth until I read your book a decade ago. And it was the most mind blowing thing I ever read. So for those who haven't heard this, let's break it down as simply and quickly as possible. Debunk our misconceived notions of heaven and what heaven actually is, what the biblical promise actually is of the new earth.

I think the most confusing thing, Jordan, is that there is the heaven you go to when you die. If you know Jesus.

The present heaven.

The present heaven, exactly. That's going to live with God in His place and where the angels are and the people of God are and all that throughout the ages. All right? But the present heaven is not the present the same as the eternal heaven. It will be relocated. And that promise is explicit in Revelation 21, verse 3. Three times. It says God will come down. He will actually bring the present heaven down to the new earth and he will dwell with his people forever. Redeemed people with new bodies, redeemed bodies on a redeemed earth. It's not just that we will be change, transform, redeemed in the full sense, resurrected at last. It's that the earth itself will be resurrected. And that's where we will live with God and His people forever.

All things will be new, as Jesus says in 21. I'm going to butcher the NT Wright quote, but he says it all the time. He's like, it's not us that go to heaven when we die. It is. Right, but that's not the end of the story. It's God who brings heaven to us here on the new earth, on a restored earth. Right?

That's exactly right. The difference between the heaven that we go to when we die, we go up to live with God in His place, is that God promises us he will come down to live with us in our place. Not his place, but our place. It'll be his place because he'll make it his place. But he is coming out of heaven to dwell down on earth. Now we've got a picture of that because we got the illusion and Genesis 3 of God walking in the garden in the cool of the day. And for sure that was something that he did regularly because it's not like. And one time and only one God came down to walk. No. That obviously was a common thing.

Yeah. My lane, in this podcast, my books, everything I do is to help Christ followers grasp how the gospel shapes their work. And for years, I believe so strongly that it is impossible or Very difficult, I shouldn't say impossible, to have a solid theology of work without having a solid theology of heaven and the new earth. I'm curious if those two ideas are linked for you, Randy, like, really broad question. How does a solid theology of the new heavens and the new earth shape how we think about our work today?

Oh, it shapes it tremendously, Jordan. Because if you think that heaven will be floating around, nondescript, nowhere to go, nothing to see, nothing to do except worship God, what does that even mean? Because we're told whether you eat or drink or whatever you do do all to the glory of God. So we can eat and drink to God's glory in this life. 1 Corinthians 10:31. And we should. What's more plain and ordinary and physical than eating and drinking? I ride my bike to the glory of God. I play tennis to the glory of God. I spend time with my wife and watch a movie to the glory of God. This is something that we can do in physical bodies. Well, we've never not had physical bodies. And so heaven, when we die, to go to be with the Lord at first will be quite a transition, but it'll be a temporary state. Now, it's possible that, and I talk about this in my books, but that we may have physical forms that God gives us temporarily so that we can function as human beings. Because human beings are not disembodied spirits. That is not our nature. Our nature is spirit and flesh joined together, and so that nature will be restored fully in the resurrection. Meanwhile, maybe God does some things and there's physical descriptions in heaven where we get by without bodies. Certainly we get by without our human body that has died and has not been raised yet. But then forever we will live with him on this new earth. Now, what will we do there? Well, what we will do is we will reign over it. We will have dominion. Now, that only has meaning if there's physicality, because that's exactly what God told Adam and Eve to do in the garden. They were to care for the animals. They were to care for the garden. They were to tend it. And then, had they not fallen into sin, sinless civilization would have developed, and art and music and sports and work would have gone on unimpeded. There would have been no curse. And that's what we see when we think of work. We think of, oh, gosh, you know, it's just so hard. Sometimes we think, now in our better moments, we realize this is fulfilling. This is what God has called us to. To work, to his glory. And nothing should energize us, refresh us, encourage us more than to do what God has called us to do. But in a world under the curse, that's become, of course, much more difficult. But that's the beauty of the new earth. There will be no more curse. Revelation 22:3. No more curse, no more thorns, no more thistles, no more impediments to the work that we do. No more bad relationships that challenge us on a daily basis. No more sin in our hearts. And so we will work for God forever and reward in God's kingdom. For what we have done in this life is about having more responsibility, greater responsibility as we work for him and live for him in the new world.

I think it was you who first helped me realize that there will be work eternally on the new earth. Isaiah 65 makes this pretty clear. Can you break that down for us, that passage? You know what? I think you know what I'm referring to.

Oh, I do, yes. And you know Isaiah 65, Isaiah 60, Ezekiel 47, Isaiah 11, there's a number of these new earth passages that are there that we often, those of us who believe in a literal thousand year millennial kingdom, we often make the mistake of limiting them. We'll see these passages. We'll say, well, that's millennium. That's the millennium. Okay, well the millennium is just a thousand years. And Daniel 7 repeatedly says, Forever and ever serving him and his eternal kingdom. It says that he will take the earth earth, and God's kingdom will be the ultimate one that replaces all these kingdoms that preceded it. You've got Babylon and Medo, Persia, and you got Greece and you got Rome. And then ultimately God is going to replace those earthly kingdoms with another earthly kingdom, which will be heaven on earth, where Jesus will reign over the earth. Isaiah 65 alludes to that. But it's even more explicit in Daniel 7 because you've got and then God Christ, the ancient of days, entrusts to the Son of man, Jesus, favorite name for himself, the Messiah, the care of and rule over the earth. And then it says that he entrusts it to his people and the saints of God will reign forever and ever. Well, that's reigning is working. A king doesn't have nothing to do. He has a great deal to do. Now he delegates responsibilities, but that doesn't mean he sits around and does nothing. I mean, a good king is actively involved. He goes out and sees his people and spends time with his people and all of that. So working is what we will do. I mean, I don't mean we'll never rest, of course. It's depicted as rest as well. But even our work, I think, will be restful.

Yeah. One of my favorite passages of Scripture, one of the most inspiring visions for work, I think, comes from Isaiah 65, verses 21, 23. This is a picture of the new Earth. Randy, you know this way better than I do. Correct me if I'm going off base here, but it's a picture of the new earth. They will build houses. You talk about us. They will build houses and dwell in them. They will plant vineyards and eat their fruit. No longer will they build houses and others live in them, or plant and others eat. And then it goes on to verse 23. They will not labor in vain. Right. So if you're having a bad day at the office today, you can lament with hope that one day, even work will be new. It will be perfect. It'll be just as Adam and Eve experienced it prior to the Fall.

Right, exactly right. And what happens, Jordan, is that people will. And I have cited this passage many times, read from. And they said, oh, well, that can't. That's not heaven. That's earth, you know, and that's just the millennium, you know. Well, no, you got to get straight into your mind that God is going to bring heaven down to Earth. How do we know that this is really about the new Earth? We'll go back to verse 17. He says, for behold, I create new heavens and a new earth. That's synonymous with new universe. Genesis 1:1. In the beginning, God created heaven, the Earth. That means God created the universe, because that's all there is, all the material existence, the entire universe he created. And then he's going to recreate and resurrect. And I think resurrect is the best word for it, because it's just like people say, well, no, wait. 2 Peter 3 says, the earth's gonna be destroyed.

Right? Right, right.

Of course it's gonna be destroyed. So our bodies are destroyed. Right. In this life, when we die, there's people that died thousands of years ago, Right? And so God is going to resurrect their bodies that were destroyed. God will resurrect the Earth that's destroyed. And we know that to be true because 2 Peter 3 says it explicitly that the elements will burn with fire. And this whole Earth, it'll be destroyed and all of that. But it doesn't end there. It says, therefore, we are looking forward to new heavens and a new Earth in which righteousness dwells a redeemed one, you know, so we sometimes make the mistake of thinking that Satan pulled off this great victory against God. He defeated God somehow. And Genesis 3 messed up God's plan planned forever. So even though God explicitly says he wants Adam and Eve to rule the earth, to have dominion over the earth for his glory, it's as if we think, oh, well, only two people ever experienced it, and that for a short period of time, and then God's plan was foiled forever. No, Jesus came to fulfill God's plan, not to reverse it or say, okay, well I've come now so that I can drag people's souls off into a ghostly existence for all eternity. No, he came to bring a kingdom to earth. And then people say, oh, but wait, Jesus said, my kingdom is not of this earth. Well, it wasn't at that time. Right, but the point is he is going to bring his kingdom to earth and will enjoy it forever. But the Isaiah 65 passage, people will, will just say, well, yeah, but buildings and all of that, well, that's just. That's not heavenly stuff, that's earthly stuff. Well, God made us to live on the earth, and the promise of the resurrection is that we will live on the earth and do what he intended us to do forever. And so when he says he goes to prepare a place for us, in my Father's house are many mansions, rooms, whatever translation it is. But there are physical aspects to it.

So you mentioned this a couple of times, this idea that Jesus inaugurated the eternal kingdom of God on that first Easter Sunday by conquering death, but he didn't bring it to earth fully in that moment. Right. He won't do that until he returns to finish this kingdom building project. So here's my question. If God is going to finish the work of restoring and repairing creation in the end, why does our work matter right now?

It matters partly because God is with us here and now. And a large part of our stewardship is the work we do for Him. Now, our relationships, our families, our friends, our church, those are all part of that. But those too involve work, service for our King. So God has made us to serve and to find fulfillment in serving. So I think what we do is we. You need to take the eternal perspective that says, all right, help me Lord, today to take what you say about your eternal kingdom and the beauty and the wonder and the creativity and all that you have for us. And now help me to front load it into my life today so that I serve you today through. Through my work and through Other means as well. But I serve you today through my work, my play, and all the other things in my life with eternity in mind and with the meaning of being your servant and being faithful to you and doing what needs to be done. And so all the passages that have to do, and the Old Testament is full of them. And there's a lot in the New Testament as well, caring for widows and orphans. This is serving. This is the Good Samaritan. He doesn't walk by like the other religious leaders did. I mean the religious leaders did they just walk by. The man that's in the ditch, he goes and he. He takes care of him. He takes him out of there and he entrusts them to the innkeeper and leaves money with him to care for him and then says he's. He'll come back. That kind of service giving is a form of work. It's doing the works he has called us to do. And I also love the fact that in Ephesians 2, 8 and 9, which we often quote, leave out verse 10.

But please go there. This is one of my favorite topics. Leaving out verse 10 of Ephesians 2.

Yeah. For by grace you've been saved through faith, not of yourselves, to the gift of God, not by works, lest anyone should boast. So. So what happens is we get this anti works mentality which we should have if we're talking about salvation. I mean, in other words, because our works do not cannot contribute to our salvation, it is only the work of Jesus Christ on our behalf. However, just keep reading the next verse. Because we are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus. To do what? To do good work. Good works.

We are not saved by our works, but we are saved for good works.

That's right.

That's why we've been redeemed. We've been set right so that we can partner with Jesus, setting the world back to rights. I grew up in the church. I memorized Ephesians 2, 8, 9, I memorized Ephesians 2, verse 10 separately, never together. And the marriage of them could not be more important. A big part of this book that I'm releasing right now called Redeeming youg Time. It's this idea that the Gospel provides our ultimate source of ambition and rest. Right? Ambition because we believe that we're Christ's workmanship created to him for good works, but also rest, knowing that he alone is going to finish his kingdom building project. Right?

Right.

God doesn't need us to finish our to do lists. Right. Like we are off the hook for that we are off the hook for the results. We just called to be faithful in the present. Right, Randy?

Exactly. And this is where we need to see continuity between this life and the life to come. What are we told? We're told that when we leave this world at some point, whether it's immediately or a little bit later, there's debate about that. But we will all give an answer for what we have done in the body. We. We will be held accountable for what we have done in this life, how we served the Lord while we were here in our bodies, in this world under the curse. And what that means, first of all, is that I think one of the ways we get this discontinuity sense between this life and the next is imagining that we won't remember this life now. We'll remember this life far better. In other words, my memory right now, I'm 67. So I look back at life and I go, okay, I remember a lot of things that happened to me, but there's a lot of things I don't remember. And you kind of see that very clearly where you've got Jesus and the sheep and the goats, where he says, when I was hungry and thirsty, you fed me and you gave me something to drink. When did we do this, Lord? We don't even remember what you're talking about. And part of it is because you know, in as much as you've done it unto these least of my brothers, so you've done it unto me. So maybe it wasn't directly to him, it was indirectly. But also, I think if you've only done a few good works in your entire life, you'll remember them. But if you just daily are doing acts of kindness in the supermarket parking lot and helping an older person get some bags in their car, take the cart back for them, or help them reach something up on the shelf or something like that, when that's just a part of your life, which it should be. As believers, we're not going to remember the vast majority of good things we've done for people. I'll never forget when I was speaking of supermarket, I was in one one day and the checker looked at me and said something to me. And it was very obvious. She was. She was depressed. And it was someone that I had kind of remembered. I'd gone to school at the same time. She wasn't the same grade level as I was, but she remembered me. And we were talking. Well, I said some things to her. I gave her one of my books I always carry around My smaller books in my pockets, I just give them out to people. And then we're at a school like class reunion where they had all the different classes that were there at the same time. So here we are and she stands up and tells a story of how she was on the verge of taking her life one day. And then she mentions me by name. And I'm sitting there about 20ft from her and she's looking at me and says, I was going to take my life that day. I was. Literally, my plan was I'm saying goodbye to my co workers. They don't know it's going to be a forever goodbye and I'm going home and I'm going to take my life. And as a result of a booklet that he gave me that talked about God and a relationship with Christ. And I'm sitting there and at first it was hard for me to remember kind of. And it's like me to give out books. So you know. Oh yeah, I probably did that. Well, of course I did that. She's saying I did. But my point is I was not a big deal. It truly wasn't a big deal. Yet it was a big deal. And that's, that's what I think we're going to find out, that the things we've done in this life are going to matter for eternity.

When Paul and Jesus talk about good works, most often in the New Testament, you're a much better biblical scholar than me, so correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of times it's this Greek word, ergon. That's what it is in Ephesians 2:10 that we translate good works. And from my understanding, the word connotes, yes, charitable deeds, giving a book to a woman in a parking lot like that, sharing the gospel explicitly with people, but it also connotes. I was looking at my concordance, work quote, work task and employment, end quote.

Right.

So is there a sense in which Randy, just going to work and doing our job and doing our job well and serving our employers and customers well is good, is a, is a part of the good works we're doing on behalf of King Jesus?

Absolutely, yes. And I'm glad you said that because it's not that you have to import sharing the gospel into every moment, of course, but it is that God gives us relationships and actual work to do. Goods and services, those are good things that God calls us to do. Yes. The world is under a curse. All the more need for good products, goods and services. Even the fact that goods are called goods, they're good. That's interesting. I've never thought about that yet. You produce, You. Yeah, you produce goods and you do services for people. So the person who sells tires at the tire store, he's doing a good thing. Now if you are doing something which involves things that harm people. Sure.

And not just contrary to God's word. Right. That's a different story.

I mean I would even very honestly though certainly many faithful Christians have been part of the tobacco industry industry from especially in the old days, but even now some are whatever. I would just say, okay, for the most part. Is this thing that I'm devoting my life to helping produce, is it for people's good? And if I decide that it's actually not, I find. How about I just go over and do something else? If it's selling vacuum cleaners, vacuum cleaners are fine. They're great, great. I mean they help people do a job. But all I'm saying is yes, there are times where we say, am I doing the right thing? Is it going to matter for eternity? If it's doing harm, then that's not what God wants.

Not all work is good work.

Right, Exactly. But then sometimes there's the mistake of spiritualizing. Like, okay, I've had number of successful businessmen come to me and God has just changed my life. And I've learned so much about God giving and all this kind of stuff. And then they say, and I just wondering, does God want me to go into pastoral ministry? Does God want me to become a missionary? And my usual thing is, well, he might. And by all means, if you believe he does, then do that. But do not assume that for a moment. I would start with the opposite assumption. I would say, lord, I'm going to stay and faithfully do what I'm doing now. Use it to your glory.

Yeah.

The work itself and the income from the work to your glory. And unless you make explicitly clear otherwise, I'm not going to go into the quote, ministry.

Amen. And Paul, Paul talks about this. I can't remember where, maybe you can help me. But he talks about kind of our default posture should be in absence of that explicit call to stay put where you are right when you were saved and to just keep doing what you're doing. Right. I think about Jesus, you know, Jesus called certain people to quote unquote, full time ministry. My most hated term in the world, Paul, Peter, whatever. But he called others to go redeem their vocations. He told Zakus, he didn't tell Zak to leave his profession as a As a tax man. Right. He just called him to change his orientation to that work. I think that's an important distinction for us to make.

So.

All right, Randy, this podcast is really about two things. One, which we've already talked about, how does the biblical narrative in general and the gospel more specifically shape our work? But number two, I think part of our response to the gospel is just this commitment to excellence, the ministry of excellence, and mastering the crafts that the Lord has entrusted us with for his glory and the good of others. And for you, you've talked a little bit about this in blog posts in the past. A big part of mastering your work as a writer is just saying no to requests like this one for you to come onto my podcast. Right. You call this planned neglect, saying no to good things so you could focus on your most essential work. What do you mean by that term? And what does that term, planned neglect, meant for you and your career?

Well, it's been huge to me, Jordan, because when I was a young pastor especially, I just believed that any invitation to serve, to teach, to lead a group, to travel somewhere and do something for a group of people, well, obviously I was asked, so it must be God's will, you know, well, that you're going to burn out really quickly if that's the case. And I actually did. I burned out in a lot of ways. I mean, I continued in pastoral ministry, but it was only after I, for the most part, I was out of pastoral ministry and starting this new ministry, Eternal Perspective Ministries, that we have, where I just realized I have to change my whole way of thinking because it's not sufficient reason to do something that it is a good thing. It is not even sufficient reason to do something that it is a great thing. Because what I have to do is among those things that come my way and I'm asked to do. I need to decide what are the very, very few things that God has really called me to do. So I started asking God, okay, Lord, changed my assumption, Lord, I assume my answer should be no. That's what I do. Every invitation I get now I start thinking, no, no, no, no, no. But then I say, but open my heart and draw me to this if you want me to do this. I recently did that with something where my assistant, Chelsea, nicely says no to almost everything on my behalf. And then I tell her, look, I'll overrule that if I look at it and pray about it, and then I'll get back to him. And I did that. I got back to somebody said, you know, Chelsea was right to say no because I'm saying no to almost everything. But in this particular case, I just. I sensed as I prayed about it, God wants me to say yes. So planned neglect means what am I going to neglect to the glory of God? What am I going to not do to the glory of God? Now, last year I had a blast doing fantasy football for the first time I've ever done it. And I started getting my emails and sign up for this and all this kind of stuff. And I was going, you know what? I have some things that I've got to get done. And I've taken on a responsibility. I've gone back to coaching high school tennis and that's a big time commitment. And I have to carve something out. I've got to neglect something. So I am, with a certain amount of sadness, I'm still going to enjoy football, but. But I'm not going to do fantasy football, which is the ultimate. I know people who spend more time on fantasy football than they do on their jobs.

So, yeah, a great time suck of our era. I talk about this in this new book, Redeem youm Time. This idea of the importance of not just identifying priorities, but what Peter Drucker called posteriorities. Right. The list of things that you're going to avoid at all cost until you finish working through your priorities. I'm curious, do you have a couple of qu. It sounds like you pray over a lot of these requests. Very wise. Like, do you have any questions that you systematically work through when evaluating requests for your time?

Yes, I do. And one of them is, am I uniquely qualified?

I love that question.

This is one of the things that I realized years ago. I was doing a lot of speaking for the Pro Life Movement, Pregnancy center, banquets, events on the east coast, conferences. I was speaking at missions conferences also and other general Christian conferences. But I started asking myself, okay, really? So I'm flying across the country. So you're in Tampa Bay, Is that what you said? Yeah, yeah. So this would. You would get this if you did the exact opposite? I think you were recently in Portland, so you understand what's involved in that. But why am I flying across the country to speak somewhere for 40 minutes and it's taking the better part of three days of my life.

Oh, yeah.

There's the first travel day to get there, because coming out of Portland, I usually have to have a connection. And, you know, by the time I actually get there, it's too late to have done the travel that day. And what happens if I miss A flight or, you know, whatever. Okay, so there's that day, and then there's the next day where I'm actually speaking at the event. And then after that, then there's the travel back home, which often takes me into that third day. So I've just taken three days of my life to speak for 40 minutes. It doesn't make sense. Aren't there people on the east coast who can address pro life issues? And the answer, of course, is yes. And I know that because they're always flying out here to the west coast to do it. So, you know, in other words, how about we just say there is something to a regional thing? Now, I've traveled around the world, and I get it, and I know there's time, and that's not a hard and fast rule, but it is something where I say, why would I do this? And the only reason would be if I am just in a unique position to do it. Another thing I would add to that is, do I have a unique passion for this that energizes me and my wife? And that's going to answer one of these things that I chose to do. About five years ago, Nancy and I were praying that God would help us to get involved with more younger people. By younger people, we didn't mean teenagers, but more 20s and 30s people who we could pour into their lives. And then I got an invitation to speak at a pro athletes conference put on by a Christian organization. And that opened up incredible doors and relationships where one of the athletes that I'd known met Hasselbeck, who used to play for the Seahawks and other teams as well, but he remembered me from a Seahawks chapel. He said, hey, how you doing? We're catching up. He says, hey, you want to come to my small group? And I said, well, isn't that just for players? Well, I want you to be there, and you'll be my, like, my Bible answer man or whatever, you know? Okay.

So my. My living concordance.

Hey, Randy, some of the, you know, some of the tough questions, whatever. So I come and hear Matt's leading this group, and these guys are in it, and Andy Dalton and Nick Foles and Case Keenum and Kirk Cousins and these guys. And I develop these relationships with these guys, and I'm able to pour into their lives and do an online study with the. There's 18 active quarterbacks in the NFL and a number of retired ones that are in this group. And it's not that big of a thing, but it results in getting texts. Hey, what does this Bible Verse mean. And I'm leading a small group tonight. Can you help me with this and all of that. Well, so that's something I could go. Well, I'm not the only person who could do this, but for whatever reason, it kind of brings joy to us because my wife's a huge football fan. She's struggling with cancer. For her to find delight in something. She. She always tells me, you can't say no to any of these NFL things because she says, I. If you go, they want to speak in chapel. Oh, we get free tickets. Okay, so we're going. And I go, well, I don't know if I have time to prepare. No, you're doing it, so make it.

Up in the way. Yep, that's terrific advice. I love your perspective on that. All right, Randy, three questions we'd love to wrap up every conversation with. Other than your own books, which it sounds like you give away a lot, which books, on the whole do you tend to gift most frequently to others or recommend most? Lewis frequently.

Well, pretty much anything and everything by CS Lewis and also a lot of John Piper books. I've given away many copies of many of his books. Certainly Desiring God, but also a smaller book that he had that most people probably don't even know about. The original title was the Dangerous Duty of Delight. It wasn't that great of a title, but it. But small that it takes the essence of Desiring God. I've given out a lot of those. Gentle and lowly by Dane Ortland. I've been given that one away numbers of times for the last year. Terrific book about the heart of Christ for sinners and sufferers. And it's a book that's really spoken into our hearts and lives. And everybody I give this to has come back to me and said, wow, what a.

Okay, I gotta check this out. Hey, who would you most like to hear on this podcast talking about how the gospel shapes their work? Ideally, somebody working outside of the four walls of the church. But I'll take any answer you give, Randy.

Nick Foles. And here's why. Nick Foles would be a great one, because he came in the NFL, very successful for a couple of years, then not successful, almost quit the game completely and talked to me about it. And when he was going through the process of whether to continue or not, then came back as a backup for the Chiefs, then went to the Eagles and ended up being super bowl mvp. First super bowl win for the Eagles, a legend there. They built a statue to him. And now in the years since, has had some tough experiences with injuries and not. And he's a backup and right now he's the third quarterback on a team. Yeah, I mean, that's just. It's just inconceivable. But he has had the full spectrum of ups and downs and he has developed a true eternal perspective. So he's not just the great success story. Yeah, there is that. There's super bowl mvp, that's as high as you can go. But there's also the struggles. I love that things not going my way and the media criticisms and all that. And he just, he'd be a great one.

Yeah, he would be. Text Nick and tell him he's invited anytime. I'd love to have a mod. All right, last question. What's one thing from today's conversation that you want to reiterate highlight for our listeners before we sign off again? An audience of Christ followers who's just trying to do great work for the glory of God and the good of others.

I would say the idea of the cultivation of and the clinging onto of an eternal perspective. We look not at the things which are seen, but the things which are unseen. The things that are seen are temporary, but the things which are unseen are eternal. God is using our light and momentary afflictions to achieve in us an eternal weight of glory that far outweighs them all. And I would say take that eternal perspective and in particular, apply it to the very hard things you're experiencing. My wife has stage four cancer in the lymph nodes. For three and a half years, we have walked this journey together. We got some bad news just yesterday, tests that did not go the way we prayed that it would. We've asked God for complete healing. He hasn't chosen to do it yet. He may still do it. We're going to still keep praying for it. But it was some very, you know, discouraging news from a test. Well, so my wife, we cried together, we talked together, we prayed together. And then she told me at the end of the day, she says, you know, God has been with us and this has been one of the best days of my life. She was not kidding. She wasn't trying to say a super spiritual thing. She was just saying. And this morning we're talking and she's talking about how she views God at work in this. And she says, you know what? I have been thinking about angels today. And I got the biggest smile on my face. My wife talking to me. I got the biggest smile on my face because I thought, I'm going to Meet angels, guardian angels, whatever that have worked in my life and protect me. I'm going to ask them. Tell me about some of the things that you did. And she says, I just can't wait to meet them. Tears aren't coming down her eyes of sadness because she's overwhelmed with grief. She's just saying what a delight it's going to be. Only people who cling to and have a God empowered eternal perspective can think like that in the midst of what's a pretty devastating situation for her and for me.

Randy, can I and our listeners with me pray for you and Nancy right now?

Please?

Father God, our hearts break for Nancy, for Randy, in hearing this not great report from Nancy's doctors just yesterday. We lift them up, ask for a miracle in Nancy's life and her health that you would heal her and give her many, many more years to do your work in this world. But if you don't, God, we pray that Nancy and Randy would cling to the truth that you are working all things for our ultimate good and for your great glory. May we rest in the peace that that hope and that truth brings, Father God. Amen.

Amen.

Randy, on a personal level, I just want to thank you for the extraordinary work that you and Nancy and the team at Eternal Perspective Ministries have done throughout the years. Thank you for helping us rediscover a biblical view of heaven and the new earth and for giving us great hope for our lives, for our work. Guys, Heaven is the book. You could buy it wherever books are sold. You can also check out Randy's I don't know, 50 +books@epm.org Randy, thank you for spending some time with us today.

You're very welcome. It's been my pleasure, man.

I love Randy so much. This is an episode I'm going to treasure for a really long time. I really love the questions he asks to help him evaluate requests for his time. I love that question about am I uniquely qualified? Great question, guys. In redeeming your time. My new book I offer eight questions to help you say no to requests for your time. Four questions to ask of favors, things that are primarily of value to others and four questions to ask of opportunities, things that that are primarily valuable to you. But I also make the case in the book that listen worldly wisdom about saying no doesn't align all the time with Christ's example. The sacrificial example of Jesus Christ compels us to have a unique approach to the word no. And I unpack this at length in Redeeming your time. And remember, if you guys pre order the the book today, you can enter to win a trip for two to go to the Holy Land. It's real simple. Step one go pre order redeeming your time on Amazon wherever books are sold. STEP 2 Go to jordanraynor.com, fill in the form and you'll be entered to win. Guys, thank you so much for tuning in to the call to Mastery this week. I'll see you next time.