Roy Tinklenberg (Founder of Faith and Work Movement Global)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes, but first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back.

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Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor.

How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as Choreographers, soldiers, and math teachers. That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to my good friend Roy Tinklenberg. He's the founder of an organization that I partner with frequently called Faith and Work Movement Global, which helps believers start and run Christian employee resource groups. As some of the largest companies in the world, including apple, google, meta, etc. Etc. Roy and I recently sat down to discuss why he changed from planning a church to supporting believers who are already working in big companies. We talked about how practically you can start a sponsored Christian fellowship in your workplace and the three ways that Christian employee resource groups benefit the businesses that sponsor them. Please enjoy this episode with my friend Roy Tinklenberg.

Roy Tinklenberg, my friend.

Finally.

Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast.

Thanks Jordan. Great to be with you. It's been great to partner with you and you have offered so much to people in our community, Faith and Work Movement Global and all of the workplace fellowships, the Corporate Christian Fellowships, Christian Ergs. Just, it's been great to have you give author talks to read your children's storybooks, even with the kids of some of our ERG leaders. It's just been amazing to partner with you.

I tell you this every time we do one of these events, you know, for Christian ERG at Meta or Apple or wherever. Doing those events are one of my favorite things in the world to do because I'm so we're going to get into this. I'm so passionate about believers rushing into these big corporations where the light of Jesus is so desperately needed and often so unwelcome. But man, those corporations love talented people like the people that you get to serve.

So hey, let's back up.

And I am so ashamed to admit this, man.

Like, I don't remember you and I've been friends for four friends for four or five years, and I don't remember all the details of your story. Here's what I remember. You originally set out to plan a.

Church in Mountain View, California, home of Google.

What's the story of how you went from that to the work you're doing.

Today with Faith and Work Movement Global?

Yeah, that's right. So I was planting a church with a small group of seven people in my family and a baby. And so we knew that we were not going to be the best church in Mountain View. I mean, who am I kidding? John ortberg was preaching 10 minutes north of me. Chuck Ingram was preaching 15 minutes south of me. You know, I'm not going to be the best preacher we're not going to have the best worship because we have like two couples that can play, you know, one of them can play guitar and, and the other can sing. We're not going to the best children's ministry because we got one baby and my three kids. My three kids are basically taking turns doing children's ministry. And we're not going to even have youth ministry. I'm going to farm out my kids to another church to go to youth ministry with their friends. And it's like, we're not going to attract anyone to this church.

We're losing on every front.

And so we said, look, we need to do this differently. We need to think, what would we do if we were the only 13 Christians in mountain View, California? Where would we go? Where would we go if we were like missionaries coming into a unreached, completely unreached place, where would we go? And so we said, we're going to go wherever the existing churches aren't because that's kind of fitting into that framework. And we picked an area called Mountain View Triangle, which is a freeway triangle. And half of that area is apartments, condos, a few single family homes, and the other half of the area is business. So right from day one, we were thinking of doing both ministries. We're going to create a community that's a church community and offer Sunday worship services, et cetera, for the bedroom community. But we're also going to try to connect to the businesses. And inside that triangle, Google was there, LinkedIn was there. And just outside the triangle as well, there were more that was intuit, Symantec was inside the triangle. And so I didn't really know people working in these companies, but I used to be a youth pastor and I helped high school kids start Christian clubs in their public high schools. And I helped college students start Bible studies at Cal State Northridge and ucla, because that was in Southern California. And so I thought, I know how to do this. I can just find the Googlers and find out what's going on. And so I started asking all the various pastors, hey, do you have any Christians working at Google in your church? And I'd get introduced to one guy, he's like, yeah, when you were guest speaking at my church, that guy playing guitar, he was a Googler. That guy playing keyboard, he was a Googler. So I started to meet them all individually and asked them all the same question, what's a spiritual climate like at Google? And I got various answers. Some people said they felt like they could go to a church retreat over the weekend, come back on Monday. People would say, what'd you do over the weekend? And they could go into great detail about, oh, I went to this retreat, it was awesome. And people actually lean in and show interest. And other people, if you said something like that, it was like they would backpedal two steps. And it was almost like you're back in junior high.

Yeah, avoid eye contact with you for the rest of the week.

You are no longer the cool kid. You cannot sit at the cool kids table. You slightly get ostracized or persecuted would be a term that a few of them would throw around. But. And so I said, what can I do to help? And they already had a Google Christian Fellowship. It already existed. It started in 2008, this is 2014. And they had a Bible study on one of the campuses, but many of their campuses had nothing. And so we just talked about starting prayer groups and fellowships and lunches and more Bible studies and book clubs and more and more of Google's campuses. One of the guys had a brother at Apple and he said, hey, come to Apple and do what you're doing with my brother at Google here. And so I went to Apple and Apple Christian Fellowship already existed. And they actually had like six or eight different small groups across six or eight different campuses. But one of the guys was at a campus where they didn't have anything. And I said, well, let's start one. And so when he did, he invited me to come. And I have to be clear, I'm not really starting anything, Jordan. Everything is employee initiated. I'm just cheering on, you know, that's one of my gifts, Maximizer. So yeah, I'm just cheering them on, coaching them, and then later on bringing them all together so that they can collaborate with one another and they can really cross pollinate and get the best practices from one company into another company. And it's just been amazing. It's been beautiful. It's been so fun.

When did you look up and realize, okay, we're not really planting a quote unquote church. We are being what the church kind of historically has been and, and going out and multiplying these pockets of disciples and these big companies. Like, when did the dream of the quote unquote church plant die and the dream for faith and work movement kind of begin?

That was like a tension for me. I was always seeing it as two branches of the same tree. But churches are not really good containers for this kind of ministry because people would come to an event that we're doing and it's now an intercompany workplace worship night. And they would go, is this a church event or is this a faith and work event? And I would go, yes. And they were like, well, if it's a church event, they probably disconnect because they're not part of our church. And so right from day one, I've always had the strategy of when I'm doing workplace fellowships and supporting the workplace fellowships, the goal is not to bring them to the church and the goal is not to get finance from them for the church. So, yeah, I just feel like, you know, I've seen this not only in our ministry situation, that churches are not the best container for this type of ministry. Churches are great partners and we loved our church plant and we love the people who were part of our church plant. And we did successfully do a small missional community church for several years. And we also continued to do faith and work Movement. But Faith and work movement started through the conduit of the company to just keep on expanding. So it was no longer just Google Mountain View that we were connected to, and it was no longer just Google that we were connected to. And that kind of aha moment came multiple times. Sort of it came multiple times. In fact, in some ways it came even before we planted. And I was trying to do both, but my capacity was not there to do both. And I was realizing I would have to choose. And the church always wanted me to choose things that would bring more people into the seats. And the philosophy of ministry is we want to bring more people into the Christian ergs, into the workplace fellowships, into the corporate Christian fellowships. And whether or not they come here or not is inconsequential. And so when churches get inward focused, then they're going to pull all their resources and everything internally, and they're not going to be focused on that external, that front facing to the world kind of mission.

My friend Sky Jatani, I love the way he articulates this. Churches who are cruise ships versus churches who are aircraft carriers.

Absolutely right.

Like, I think most churches, at least since I've been alive, at least the churches that I've seen have acted like cruise ships. We want you to come here, stay here. Program, program, program, program, program. I think Ephesians 4 calls us to be aircraft carriers, to equip the saints to go out into the world and to seek to save the loss and to implement Christ kingship in every square inch of creation. And that's what you guys are doing with the faith and work movement. So we around this, let's be explicit.

How do you succinctly describe the work.

That you all do at Faith and Work Movement Global?

Roy Our mission statement is to positively impact companies that impact the world. And the way that we do that is by creating Christian communities inside of these companies. Now, sometimes those groups are already created, so then we're coaching those leaders and we're connecting them to other leaders. And that was another big aha moment. It was like, I'm going to Google being badged in as a guest, praying with their leaders, and then I'm being badged in at Apple, and then I'm being badged in at LinkedIn and then I'm getting badged in at Cisco to help start up a group at Cisco. And then one of the guys in that first group of seven people in our church gets a job at Facebook and says, hey, Pastor, I'll be the guy that badges you in at Facebook. And I realized I think I might be the only person that knows all these Christians in Google, Apple, Cisco, LinkedIn, Facebook. And they don't know each other. They're all siloed. And I was like, this has got to change.

You mentioned one name for these workplace fellowships, Roy. It's a term that I've used on this podcast a lot before. Employee resource groups, ergs at these big companies that typically these workplace fellowship groups under. And you mentioned one benefit of them, right, which is simply, hey, that woman at Uber, not feeling alone, feeling like there's other Christ followers there. What are some other benefits of these workplace fellowships that you've seen? You, you, you mentioned seeing believers do some bold things, maybe point to that as one of the benefits that you've seen for these groups.

Yeah, well, let me talk about it on two angles. One, first of all, from the corporate side, it is in their advantage. It is to their advantage, I should say, to bless and endorse these kinds of fellowships because like you said, people are feeling alone and that brings down productivity, that brings down morale. And so retention is one of the reasons that it's good for business to allow for this and to accommodate this and to even like willingly, graciously accept this. And so not only is it good for retention, it's good for recruitment. Some people are actually now looking at the landscape and they're going, I'm a Christian and does this company have a faith friendly posture towards people like me? And so recruitment and revenue, right? Because if morale is down and you're not motivated to work, which is a common problem, Gallup's polls at work are just showing the statistics, disengagement. And then after they show this about disengagement, Gallup shows, but this is solvable. And then they start talking about things that will drive up engagement. And one of those things is community. And so when you start to build communities within the company where the birds of the feather can flock together, it enables that group of people to feel at home and the company. And when they start to feel at home in the company, the productivity rises. I remember one of the very first groups that I, that I met with, it was a Thursday morning prayer meeting. And this guy came into work and said, Thursdays are my best day at work. He's like, I come in, I pray with you guys. I get supercharged. I'm so productive. And then I go home and I'm just like with my family. And so, yeah, all positives, all positives.

So I've spoken at some of these ERG groups with you, and they've been at really big companies. What's the smallest company where you've seen a workplace fellowship group or an employee resource group that's explicitly Christian or interfaith?

Oh, man. Don't really know. I know workplace fellowship groups, like, I've seen groups get started in 12 where there's two Christians and they, they just start. But ergs don't usually get started in companies that are that small, like little startups. And sometimes when there's nobody else, we just accommodate that by creating what we call a parish group. We'll all meet, say like in a public atrium in San Francisco, and there's a whole bunch of people that are the only Christian in small startups that will just meet together. And they essentially function in the same way as an internal corporate Christian fellowship or erg, would. But they're, they're, they're doing it as sole representatives of their company, but just to encourage one another. And sometimes then out of those things, like this happened with one guy who had been part of Google Christian Fellowship, took a job in the city, was taking the train to the city, and they would time their commute so that they would all be able to meet at a coffee shop right at the end, at the last terminal, and then they'd all go to work. And then one of those guys actually launched a NERG and Stripe, and it became a full, fully endorsed erg. So I've seen it happen where it's a startup, but as a company grows, people who really believe in this and have that DNA, they start asking, can, can we start a fellowship? And as soon as a company starts any erg, it opens the door for more. And so that's when you want to ask.

I've introduced you to a few listeners of this podcast over the years who wanted to start a Christian erg at the company that they were at, but they had no idea how.

So talk to the listener for.

I mean, listen, if you're at a small company with 12 employees, just find the nearest Christian and start a Bible study, right? Like, it's. It's pretty low lift, but for that Christian who's at a company like Stripe, at a company like Meta, right? And again, those companies already have this, but assume their company doesn't have a Christian erg, what are the basics of getting one of these started?

First of all, pray. Just pray. And I remember when I was coaching a leader in a company and I told her that, and she later on told me, come on, be serious. What am I really supposed to do? And I was like, no, this is what you're really supposed to do. And just pray, because God helps you, God helps you. God enables you. God finds the people that carry the same spirit that you carry. And so pray. Pray them into fellowship with yourself and pray for the opportunity to discover them. I mean, there's some amazing stories like. And one. One woman was actually prompted to do this. And she. She was prompted to do what was seemingly crazy at the time. She was working at Nike in Portland, and she did what? Nike had this kind of, like, track thing, circle around their office, been there. And she was walking it like an ex. Like a place to exercise, right? And she said, I don't know why, but I felt like I wanted me to do, like, a Jericho walk and walk around the building seven times. And one of her co workers saw her and said, hey, I see you're exercising. Can I exercise with you? As she's doing this and praying. And this person was another believer. And they didn't know it, neither one. And God just, like, prompted her to do it. And it so happened that he pulled her out of the woodwork and brought her the person that she needed. Sometimes you're just looking. Like, one guy was actually going into the cafeteria and looking to find out who's praying over their meals.

Ooh, that's good.

Another person was just searching LinkedIn and searching to find out who volunteers for churches and Christian organizations in my company and then ping them. Hey, I noticed this. And they're. First of all, finding a few just to get the critical mass and starting ad hoc. And then you can go to HR and say, we would like to start a fellowship. What are the steps required? And like, the first group that I actually helped accommodate was a group at Cisco, and women went there to HR and they said, we actually expect you to do this for a year before you apply to make sure that there's kind of like a need for this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And if after a year, you're still meeting as this ad hoc fellowship, this affinity group, then we can start the process from company to company. It may vary, but if you already have critical mass, then you ask, like, can we use a Slack channel? Can we create an email alias? You start building more. And some of the groups choose to stay that way. They did. They just kind of stay on the sidelines informally. Formal, but not formally recognized. So HR knows they're there, and HR is giving them permission to book conference rooms and create Slack channels and email groups and everything with corporate emails. And then other companies say, no, we really want to become an employee resource group. And so they then learn what is required. And usually it isn't. You know, what's required is like presenting a slide deck, saying, these are the business reasons for this, because there has to be a business reason for it. It can't just be a spiritual reason. And so, you know, the three Rs, you know, retention, recruitment, revenue, these kinds of things. And so you present the business case because some of them call them no longer employee resource groups. They call them BRG's business resource groups to really highlight the fact that this is meant to be beneficial to the business. And we've picked up a lot along the way just by running alongside of the leaders that are making presentations and connecting them to people who've recently made presentations. Like two guys that were living in the same apartment in Chicago. One guy presented his deck to his company. The other guy took his deck, took away the company name, replaced it with his own, presented it to his company, and it was basically almost a cut and paste. And. And the second guy got approved faster than the first guy.

You got product market fit with that deck. You need to shop that deck around. I love that.

All right.

No, this is super helpful, right?

So I heard three steps there. Number one, pray. Number two, ask HR what the steps are to getting ergs off the ground. And three, email Roy Tinklenberg to ask for the deck that walks you through retention, recruitment, and revenue. Hey, speaking of, those are obviously the benefits of the business.

Let's talk about the benefits of these.

Groups to the kingdom of God.

Like, what are you seeing beyond their Exponential.

Jordan.

Beyond the encouragement of just these believers being in community together, what are you seeing God do through these groups within these businesses?

I can go on all day.

What's your favorite story?

Okay, let me talk about one that it's going to be. It's going to be on the line of both. But you know how we're talking about the three Rs, recruitment, retention, revenue. One guy was an engineer at one of these big companies, Meta, and he was struggling, and his whole team was struggling with a solution, engineering solution, and they were not finding the solution. And he went away to a retreat. He was pulling off from the retreat to try to work on this because it was just such a big burden. So the people at retreat said, hey, let's pray about this. And you know, when Jesus tells his disciples to throw the nets on the other side of the boat, that was a really good day at the office, because except for the fact that their nets were breaking, but I'm sure the amount of fish that they caught could fully compensate for those broken nets. And within two hours, he had a solution that he had been struggling with for months, and he saved the company millions of dollars. And it was supernatural productivity. And so when this happens, all of a sudden it's like, what? Really? We can lean into Jesus for our work and we can get insight for our work, and you start telling these stories and more and more people start believing for this stuff, and all of a sudden the company is benefiting because, yeah, great day at the office when you catch more fish, right? And. Or when you fix more problems. And then the believers start benefiting because they are now realizing that God actually cares about their work and not just the pastor's work and not just the missionaries work, but God actually cares about the nuts and bolts of the work that they are doing. And which is why I love it when people invite you to their groups to talk about the sacredness of secular work. You know, and so one of the great benefits is just for people to realize that God cares about their work and that he has called them and placed them in their companies and that they are working for the Lord as much as the person who gets a paycheck from a Christian organization.

Amen.

There are very few quotes from this.

Podcast that, like, really stick in my brain years after the fact. One of them, though, is from my friend Mike Kelsey, lead pastor at McLean Bible Church in Virginia.

He said, God is not just at.

Work in your evangelism. God is at work in your work, right? And you're giving an Opportunity for believers in some of the largest companies and most influential companies.

Talk about kingdoms of this world.

You're giving them an opportunity to see that on a regular basis. Roy, this has been great. Hey, four questions we wrap up every episode with. I'm excited to hear your riff on these questions.

Number one, look ahead to Isaiah 65 and the new Earth. What job would you just love for.

God to give you to do for his glory, free from the curse of sin?

Well, when I was a kid, I wanted to be a pilot, and I became a pastor. I would love to, like, zoom all over the universe.

Zoom through the new heavens.

Yeah, whatever that looks like. Whatever kind of flying we get to do. That would be awesome.

So that would be amazing. I don't think I told you this. I got off stage at this event, and really senior leader at Boeing came up to me. He's like, so are you telling me that on the new Earth there's a chance that we'll pilot spacecraft? I was like, listen, I can't point you to anything definitive of God's word, but I think using our biblically informed imaginations, why not? And so, man, I'd love to see. I'd love for Roy to fly me somewhere on the new Earth. That sounds amazing.

Hey, man, if we opened up your.

Amazon order history, which books would we see you buying over and over and over again to give away to friends?

Anything that Jordan Rayner writes, stop. Well, that's a good question. The book that I just got recently was from another friend who wrote a book called A Disruptive an encounter in Psalm 23. It's really about discovering God's purpose for us. And so I'm just into that. I mentioned I was just, like, in New York doing a Believers in business thing with InterVarsity's MBA program. And so I got to reconnect with this friend, and he gave me that book. I'm just into that. I also just came back from south by Southwest in Austin, where we did a faith and work panel, and I got a book there by Mark Batterson, A Million Little Miracles. I'm looking forward to reading this, but I wouldn't say I'm, like, giving away massive amounts of these books. Tim Keller. Every Good Endeavor is the book that I say is required reading for anybody who really wants to integrate faith work. And that's the one. I've given that one away. I've given away a lot of Tom Nelson's Work Matters, and those are the books that I give away. But we really also gave away a Lot of your kids books. And so that. That was not just being, you know, kind. It's real. We did.

I think the people who've given away the most copies of those books are you guys and Tim and Kathy Keller. I hear from people all the time still who are like, oh, yeah, Tim, give me a copy of the creator in you, which is super, super cool. Hey, Roy, who would you most want to hear on this podcast? Maybe somebody in one of the ergs you serve about how the gospel's influencing their work in the world.

Yeah. I mean, we have so many people that would be great for you to interview within. How can I single it down to one? That's impossible. I know you've had a few. You've had Mimi. You've had Becky. Have you had Lucas Devine?

No.

Lucas is amazing.

Where does he work?

GE in Milwaukee.

And wait, didn't I do an event with these guys? I think I did. I think I did. GE event.

So ge. GE was one of those companies where it took a little longer for them to get their faith erg approved, but they have. They are now approved. So it's quite possible that you. You did speak with them, but they also have, you know, like, that's a good name. Has his counterparts in many, many places. Right. Carla Blairs at ge, other people. And both of them would be great. Yeah. There's just so many, Jordan. I just. It's really unfair for me to single it down to one.

I'll say yes to any name Roy Tinklenberg sends me.

Andrew is on our board, and Cheryl Chan is on our advisory board. Grant Hofaker is on our advisory board. Mimi Chan, you've already had. She's on our advisory board. Yeah. You know, some. Some of our advisory board alumni who are no longer working in companies. Yeah.

I know Christine really well. Yeah. Yeah.

All right.

Send me all these names, man. Shoot me an email. Give me some names.

All right.

Hey, Roy, you're talking to this global audience of mere Christians. Some of them work at huge companies. Some of them are solopreneurs.

Right.

Or work at really small businesses. What's one final thing you want to say or reiterate to our listeners before we sign off?

God has put you in the place where you are. He has anointed you for the work that you're doing. Your work is as important, if not more important, than the work that I was doing as a pastor or a youth pastor. As a pastor, when I speak, 99% of my audience is Christian. When you're in the workplace, you're interacting with 98% of your audience that is not following Jesus. If you're in Silicon Valley, we go with like 2 to 5% believers in the company that are actively faithfully following Jesus. And so he puts you on the front lines of the kingdom to faithfully represent Jesus there. Shine, shine and experience his favor and his anointing.

It's good man. Roy, I love you brother. I want to commend you for the exceptional work you are doing every day for the glory of God and the good of others in the equipping of the saints.

Thank you for leaning into Ephesians 4.

To help the church look more like an aircraft carrier and less like a cruise ship and for giving us some practical ways. Yeah to be in community with other believers as we do our work.

Guys, if you want to learn more about Roy and his work and get.

Some help and starting an erg or.

Supporting the erg you already have in.

Your company, check out Roy and his team at faith and work movement.org Roy.

Thanks for spending time with us today man.

It's my pleasure Jordan. Always love partnering with you.

Hey, if you're in a company that does not have a Christian employee resource group and you're looking for a way just to get something small started, I want to help you. So here's an idea. Form a book club right? Read one of my books read five mere Christian that just came out with some co workers and you can use some discussion questions that we created specifically for this use case questions that are appropriate for discussion with your colleagues at work. You can find those and learn more@jordanrayner.com erg thank you guys so much for listening.

I'll see you next week.

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