Ruth Chou Simons (Author of Now and Not Yet)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back guarantee on this book. I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me, right. I know this is a very different biography. What is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right? So that's the first reason this is a risk and I'm gonna de risk this book for you. Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended. End quote. But here's the thing. In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on 5 mereChristians. Calm and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5meerchristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as lawyers Foresters and assessors. That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to my friend Ruth Cho Simons. She's a super talented artist, entrepreneur and the author of multiple best selling books, including a new book that I recently read and loved called now and Not Yet. Ruth and I recently discussed how we can be content with what God has already given us while striving for what's next in our careers. Ruth shared four questions that she asks to help her see her circumstances the way that God does. And then Ruth got super honest about how she is currently processing a disappointing slowdown in her once rapidly growing business. Trust me, you're going to love this great episode with my friend Ruth Cho Simonds. Ruth Cho Simons, welcome back to the Mere Christians podcast. It's good to have you.

So honored to be back, Jordan.

It's been four years since we had you in the show and I believe that since then Britney Spears posted one of your pieces of art on Instagram. Is this true? I've heard rumors of this.

I feel like that happened before we talked. That was this story, you know, years ago, before I became Ruth Joe Simons on Instagram, it was just grace laced. And one time she posted my Lord's Prayer painting. That print is no longer in the shop now, but at the time it was and she tagged me and I went over there and I gasped and thought, okay, not only did she know where it came from, she tagged Grace Lace. And then following that was some inappropriate picture of her. So I'm. Yeah, I didn't point a lot of people to that particular feed. But you know better than that. One time I got a call from the Lifeway stores that Justin Bieber and Selena had been in to buy a bunch of my Grace Lace things in the Lifeway stores. That's so amazing.

I don't back when Lifeway was a.

Thing good, I was sad when the stores went away. I was like, where is Justin going to buy my Justin?

Selena need their Grace Lace gear, y'. All. Come on.

No. And then, and then it was sad, but it's fine. It's fine. I don't keep up with all that, but.

Well, hey, I had to have you back on the podcast to talk about this new book which I loved now and not yet, which in your own words is a book quote for those of us who are waiting, wanting and restless for more. And I think that describes every single professional on the planet, Christian or not. I know it describes me. So for you, Ruth, what personally has been the most painful season of longing in your career. When were you the most restless professionally?

Well, you know, that is a loaded question because I think this book barely touched on all the differences. But I tried to give a little bit of insight because I think so often we see somebody through thriving in their careers and we think, oh, they just, like, hit their stride and they knew exactly where they should be. And for me, I've had several pain points and several really uncomfortable seasons where I wasn't where I wanted to be yet. And, you know, to begin with, I talk about, and I share a little bit of this in the book, but I. I think most of us can relate to a season where you're watching other people do exactly what you want to do and you just don't even think. Either have the opportunity or you're trying, but it doesn't seem to work, or you're not getting the traction, or if you're in our industry, maybe the response isn't there. You're not seeing the likes on social media or the followers. Nobody's resonating or maybe resonating, but maybe it's five people and not the 5,000 you hope will respond. And so I remember even early on, because of my personal story. I'm a mama to six boys. My oldest is now 22 and my youngest is 11. So I can vividly remember a season, a good decade, maybe almost two decades ago, where I just wasn't doing the creative work that I longed to do. And I couldn't have imagined that it would look like writing books or running a art company. I couldn't have imagined this moment now. But at the time, the pain point was even going, why am I not further along? Why am I not where I want to be? How come I can't use all my gifts the way I want to right now? So that probably was one of the most painful points of that journey of going, how do I get there already? Do I have to do this right now? This. This tedious part where I'm honing other skills or I'm not getting to do everything the way I think I ought. That was probably the beginning of that experience.

Yeah. It's like, where's the next episode button?

Right.

Like, I'm ready to skip ahead. Yeah. And I'm curious to get your take on this. I'm not sure that restlessness is intrinsically bad or sinful. Right. Like, God has made us creative. We have visions and dreams for our lives and our work that I think come from God. And I'd love For you to talk about that. Is that longing intrinsically sinful or do we sin and how we respond to our restlessness in this moment?

That's such a good question, Jordan, because I think we tend to think that we have to either shut off that restlessness, like absolutely love where I'm at and I don't need to have bigger dreams. I shouldn't aspire to more. Why should I bother taking that webinar class like helpful me learn new skills. That's not the issue. God has wired us. I mean, we read in Scripture that we are given gifts and talents. We are uniquely crafted. I love Ephesians 2:8 through 10, the reminder that we are saved by faith, not through our works. However we have been made. We are his workmanship. It says specifically Paul says we are crafted and designed. We are God's designed workmanship for the purpose of doing good works. So there are things that God has prepared beforehand for us to do, to offer to step into. Into the kingdom. Where we sin is when we go ahead of God and when we think it has to happen on our terms, that we deserve more than we've been given, we start thinking that we can't be faithful right where we are because we don't have everything we think we deserve yet. That's when I think we begin to oper in sinfulness and discontent in some assumptions about how we should organize our lives and how we should see our futures the way we want them to play out. That's when we start losing sight of God being in control, God being sovereign, God being the one who designed you with those gifts and talents in the first place.

Yeah, it's good. Ecclesiastes 7, 8 says that patience is better than pride. I think it's so interesting that it contrasts patience and pride because on the surface those don't look like the flip sides of the same coin. But they are, right. Like, if I'm impatient about the season, it's because I believe I deserve to be somewhere other than where God has placed me.

Exactly.

Right now. Right. I mean, this is a big theme in the book. You said I want to quote you here, quote. What I really need during my most restless seasons is to see my current circumstances the way that God does. End quote. What does it look like? What does it look like to view that current circumstance not with restlessness, but the way that God sees it? What does it look like practically, maybe even in the season that you mentioned a few minutes ago when you were a stay at home, quote, unquote, mom and Weren't able to scratch that proverbial creative itch.

Yeah. You know, I think if you know me at all, if you read any of my books, you know that I'm always trying to peel back the layers that seem obvious and get to the heart of issues. Because we can, you know, try to fix our problems, fix our mindset. We can have an attitude adjustment. But until we get to the heart of what's going on, we can't really progress and see sanctification happen in our lives in the way it's intended to because we're so stuck on our own paradigm. And so one of the things that I've learned just through various seasons is that I need to have an accurate view of what God is doing, which means I have to have an accurate view of who God is. So just on the most basic level, I would say shifting that mindset and having the right view of my current circumstances has to start with knowing who God is and why he has purpose in the seasons that we don't see purpose in. Now, having the mind of God isn't something that we can just say, today, God, I would like to see everything from your perspective. Download it all to me. No, it's that we go to the Word and we say, okay, let's. Let's understand his heartbeat. Let me trust him more. Let me know how he has dealt with others. Where have other people in scripture questioned that God had a plan, but then found out that truly God knew exactly what he was doing? That just because we can't see it yet doesn't mean he's not at work. So on a practical level, that means when I'm in the seasons that are most disappointing or not where I want to be or not satisfied, let's say I loved being a mama. I mean, I had to grow into that love. But I remember in that early season, I would feel like I have all these gifts. Why am I changing diapers and picking up Cheerios and, like, literally sorting Legos all day long? What am I doing with my life? So rather than just saying, no, this is good stuff, and I'm gonna have a great attitude about it, I had to start with the reverence for God and go, okay, I need to, like, surrender and be a little more humble. Before you, like, we talked about pride and patience, and so start there. But then secondly, within that, once I. Once I can adjust my posture. I think this is a posture issue. Once I can adjust my posture before the Lord and say, it's rather than I deserve more progress, I Want a different schedule. I think I am made for more to say, okay, Lord, I am the created, you're the creator. I can submit and surrender my days to your plan. But as I do that, then that shifts and becomes a question of, so how do I steward today? Well, because rather than think I know the way, I can say, okay, God, you have the way. But you've given me a set of circumstances, the people in my life, the way I'm wired. You've given me all these things today. So part of humility is I'm also not going to waste those things. So rather than chasing after how to use those the best and the furthest for my own gain, I start saying, okay, if you're the boss guide, then how do I take the schedule you've given me, the kids in my home, the opportunities I have, the way I'm wired. Maybe I'm super organized, maybe I'm super creative. Maybe I have the gift of hospitality, whatever you've gifted me with, how do I use that today? Even if I don't see the fruit the way I want to see it, how do I use it today? Because you're the boss and I get to steward this. Well, that's really the heartbeat of this message, but the heartbeat of what has caused me to persevere through these decades of dreams coming true and dreams not coming true. Because something's got to be that constant through all of it. And the constant is, God's the boss. I get to steward what I already have. And so melding those two things really makes it possible for us to, day by day, avail ourselves of however God wants to bless us, however God wants to pivot. And we might be really, really surprised by how he will cause opportunities to come at just the right time, when our posture and our position is in a place where we can receive that because we're already surrendered.

Yeah, that's really good. And surrendered in obedience in the today, while keeping an eye on tomorrow, but being faithful with what he's already put in our hands. You said in the book, it's on pages 23 and 24. If you're listening at home, turn your hymnals there. You offered these four questions I thought were really great that help readers, help them see their. Their current circumstances the way that God sees them. Can you share those four questions with our listeners?

Okay, yeah. So the questions that you're referring to really have helped me. I can stop. And at any moment of any day when I'm feeling, like, restless or discontent or like nothing is enough. In my life, I can just stop and ask myself, first and foremost, what circumstance is causing my restlessness? Start there. Just start with an assessment of like, what is it? What is it that's making you feel, naming the thing. So rather than just be like, I'm so restless, I don't know what it is, but to like stop and go, what's causing you to feel this way? And then secondly, what underlying identity or self worth issue am I struggling with? I feel like this is so the key because let's say, let me just, you know, go all the way back to 22 years ago. Let's say the circumstance that's causing my restlessness is that I spend all my hours at home changing diapers and staying put during nap time while my friends are getting to go out and do something that I want to be doing right now. Let's just say that was one of the feelings that I had in that exact season. The second question that I ask myself is, what underlying identity or self worth issue am I struggling with? Well, in that particular scenario, it might be Ruth, I think what you're struggling with is thinking that your worth is in how much you produce or how much you can accomplish and put out into the world for all to see. And the work of motherhood is kind of hidden right now. It's a work that feels a little hidden. You're not getting a paycheck for it and you don't see a whole lot of results right away. So maybe take that to the Lord, right? And then, and number three, which leads us to according to God's word and wisdom is the remedy for what I need found in myself or in him, in my efforts or in God's work. See, we take that to the next level. Now we're kind of saying, okay, now that I've identified what is causing me to feel restless, what I think is the thing that I'm lacking in my self worth or my identity, what is it that I think is at risk here? Then the third question is like, what does God have to do with it? Because if I need affirmation or if I need a sense of identity, or if I feel like I don't feel good about myself when I'm not getting accolades from others, well then is that really a problem that should be solved by going and starting a new career, or is that something I need to take to the Lord first? Doesn't mean you shouldn't see some changes in your schedule, but it means, hey, first and foremost, how does God's word say that this issue should be satisfied in him. And we usually can find that it's really convicting when you realize, ooh, if I don't feel like I have worth, well, that's not ever going to be found in a career change or in suddenly having more followers on Instagram. That's going to be found in Jesus first, right? And then finally, the fourth question is, how can I stop scrambling and start resting right where I am? And so you can't start with that question, because if you start with that question, you'd be like, I need a spa day. Well, maybe you do need a spa day, but you're never going to come to the bottom of what's going on. So that's the last question we ask in this quick little self assessment. Because if you can identify, hey, I'm feeling like I'm not valued. Well, no matter what, Ruth, where do you have to go find value? First, I turn to the Lord in it, and then I ask myself, okay, in what way can you adjust your hustle, your scramble, your chaotic life to reflect the truth that your value comes from Jesus? Do you see how those are progressive? And by the end of it, you can say, okay, it doesn't fix my restlessness, but it addresses one area, the area where I think right now, I've got to go fix this. Well, how do I turn to the Lord and then adjust my life according to the truth of God's word?

Yeah, that's really good. Really, really helpful. I love those four questions. So for you in this season, you and I, everybody, we're always going to be longing for what's next. We're always going to be looking towards the next big goal. How do you remain content right where you are? I'll give a quick story. I remember I had a mentor, mine, who I was sitting down, having coffee with and explaining kind of the next big, hairy, audacious goal for my work. And he just stopped me and he's like, jordan, would you be content if you never sold another book? Would you say, blessed be the name of the Lord? I was like, not. Not if I'm honest. I would love to say that, but no, I wouldn't. And so I'm working. I'm spending years working through this. How do I yearn for what's next and be content in all things, as Paul says, Right. With what I have right now, what does that look like for you? Have you found some good habits and practices for cultivating contentment with, while on the other hand, yearning for what's next?

Yeah, well, you know, Jordan, we've never really met in person, but I kind of have a feeling if we had dinner together, we are wired so similarly, right? When you're an excellence person, when you are driven with passion and vision for the work that you do, when you're an achiever, when you're somebody who can see the finish line and you don't want to just like meet, you know, have mediocrity as you approach, you're going to hit that goal. I struggle with all those things. And so it's funny because this book, the now and Not Yet Message, was applicable for me 22 years ago, and it's applicable for me right this minute. In addition to being an author and a speaker and Bible teacher, I run a company. And that company hasn't seen a lot of movement upwards in the last several years. Since COVID We had a, like, a lot of online businesses. You know, I saw my work flourish in 2020 and then suddenly it's like, wow, I feel stagnant. I don't feel like we're, you know. And then you throw in their turnover or things that change or people's lives needing different things, and you suddenly realize you're hiring again, you're working through different things. So I could say, and I know in my heart that I have these goals for my business. I have these goals as an author. I have these various goals. But I keep realizing that I can't write that story if I'm not in a healthy emotional place, a healthy mental place, and if I'm not resting well. So even today, before this interview, I had a long and difficult conversation with some of the people closest to me in my work about how I've got to refill that tank before I have any words that are worth writing or speaking or producing. Like, that just is not wise. And so even if I know how to hit that goal, the Lord could very much remove my opportunities to do so if I'm not actually honoring him with every bit of diligence in the things that are hidden and the things that matter and the things that reflect him, that I actually care about my relationship with him before I care about what I produce in the world. So practically speaking, what that looks like for me is one actually scheduling and considering how I rest before I schedule and consider all the tools to get me further. So, like, I actually have to physically think through where rest happens in my weekly life as well as in like, you know, year by year, like, what that looks like. And I'm not saying that I'm doing this well, I'm saying this is an active thing that I'm working on. Secondly, I would say something that really helps me because I think what you're asking in part, there's no real formula for or answer for except for us to constantly adjust our perspective to be more kingdom minded than Ruth kingdom minded or Jordan kingdom minded. Right, so. So what you're describing ultimately is how do I think of. Think more eternally when my temporary moment is like, I want to nail it on that and I want to get further on that and I'd like to be better in this area. Well, honestly, one of the best things that helps keep me in check with that eternal perspective is to make sure that the ministry and the work that I'm doing that I want to, let's say, sell thousands of copies telling, or that I want to minister out there with that I do somewhere locally, somewhere right in front of me, because that's where I can really work out the actual result and effectiveness of what God's called me to do. I'm not sure I said that really well, except to say in the public ways in which I want to measure success, I have to make sure that that's not the one way I'm measuring that, that I have to take whatever message. So if the now not yet message, I need to make sure that that message is being communicated or I am ministering with that message with somebody in my home, with one of my children, with my employees, with my church family, not in the sense that I have to be teaching that Bible study, but that I'm actually living that message. Because then I can say, oh, Lord, I see if I never sell another book, if I never get to go on another interview about this message, I can see your blessing and I can see the fruit of this message. And then I can wholeheartedly answer, yeah, I could never sell another book and be okay with the work that I did because I see the fruit of it in a really, really tangible way right in my immediate life. So I guess that helps me recognize that, you know, we like to say the results are up to the Lord, but I still count those results all the time. So the only way to help me adjust my thinking to know that the results are what pleases the Lord and not just what pleases me, is if I am not just giving that work out into the world where it's measured by somebody else, that I'm actually doing that as close to home as possible with those in my immediate life.

It's really Good. It's a really hard question.

It is a hard question. I had to really think about that.

And it's something I think we're going to perennially struggle with. But I think so long as our goals are decoupled from the goals of the kingdom, we can't be content with results. But when they're aligned, we can be content with any results. Because at the end of the day, the Lord's purposes will prevail with or without us. Right. It's losing yourself in that bigger story. Yeah, it's good. All right, Ruth, four rapid questions. We wrap up every show with number one. What work would you love the Lord to give you to do on the new earth, free from the curse of sin? Do you want to be doing what you're doing now? Ah.

Oh, I love what I'm doing right now. When I think about what freedom looks like for me, sometimes it looks like just gardening and just tending to things that flourish. And when I think about a flower garden, I think the Lord's in charge of making that beautiful. I just tend to it. So if I could just, like, choose some new career, it'd probably be to be a flower farmer and then to make flower arrangements, because that's just me tending to things and creating with something that's already beautiful.

Well, Isaiah 65's got good news for you, Right? It's using that gardening language when it says that we will long enjoy the work of our hands on the new Earth. If we open up your Amazon order history, what books do we see you bind over and over and over again to give to other people?

Okay, well, first of all, I love a tiny little book by Milton Vincent. Yes, that's his name, called the Gospel Primer. It's tiny. And when I really want to just share the truly the good news succinctly, understandably, it's such a great picture of the gospel, and so I do buy that one, and that one gets shared quite a bit. But I thought you were gonna ask me what my most recent purchase was, and it was.

I'd love to know that too.

Well, it's on menopause, by the way, so that's my new season. I know you can't really.

I'm hyper relevant for me. But hey, many of our listeners. What's the book? Is it good?

Well, there's two of them. Well, I'm starting it now, but it's pretty well known. It's been on the New York Times for quite a bit. It's called the New Menopause And I think it's just that we're women. And for your audience, working women, I would say so often we don't realize that this season of life, I'm turning 49 in a few weeks. And this season of Life brings a lot of opportunity, but also a lot of things that nobody talks about how you feel about trying to assess your life. And so it's been interesting. The physical and the emotional, all the things.

Yeah, yeah, that sounds. Sounds like a blast. Sounds like a blast. Hey, so most of our guests, Ruth, are not Christian authors or personalities. They're mere Christians working as baristas and janitors and entrepreneurs. Who's somebody in that category that you would love to hear talk about how the gospel shapes the work they do in the world?

That's a good question. I think I would love to hear how a hairstylist, because I think there's a really unique opportunity because even during COVID nobody really wanted to give up on beauty treatments. You know, this is a. It's a major industry and a number of hours somebody will sit with that captive audience when you're doing somebody's hair and coloring. That's a five hour process. And I sometimes wonder like if a blessing believer is inserted right in the middle of a salon and she has a winsome, wonderful opportunity to share her own life story or share in gracious way. What happens in that chair could be amazing.

Some pretty amazing things. We have a great podcast episode about that from my friend Chassis Anders that I'll be sure to send you.

I love it.

Hey, if you could only leave our audience with one thing from now and not yet, what would it be?

I think it would be that your someday is made up of thousands of right nows. So don't look at just where you want to go, but start with right this minute. What's one thing you can do right now? Because to right now's, you know, the right now one thing you can do, plus the next one thing you can do will add up to the very life that you don't even imagine right now. But your someday is made up of thousands and thousands of right nows. So get started with one small thing.

Ruth, I want to commend you for the exceptional work you do for the glory of God and the good of others, for reminding us to redeem the season we are in today by focusing on faithfulness rather than fulfillment of any specific dream. Friends, the book is terrific. It's called now and Not Yet Pressing in when you're waiting, wanting and restless for more Ruth, thanks for hanging out with us today.

Grateful for you Jordan. Thank you.

I hope you guys enjoyed that episode as much as I did. Hey listen, we are looking to fill our pipeline of prospective guests at the Mere Christians Podcast with you, our listeners. Because in my opinion, our listeners make the best content on this show. They've thought deeply about these things. So I want you to nominate yourself. I don't want you to feel guilty about it. I'm asking you to do this. Nominate yourself. If you think you've got something to say about how the Gospel is shaping your vocation, especially if it's a vocation that we have never ever heard featured here on the Mere Christians Podcast, you can do that right now@jordanraynor.com MC from your Christians. That's jordanraynor.com MC thank you guys so much. Much for listening. I'll see you next week. Hey friends, this is your last chance to claim all the amazing pre order bonuses for five mere Christians before they go away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9. I've never offered this many pre order bonuses on a book before, so when you fill out the form@5merechristians.com Number one, you're going to be entered to win an incredible trip for you and a friend to tour CS Lewis's favorite spots in Oxford, explore Olay Kirk Christiansen's former stomping grounds at Lego headquarters in Denmark, and much more. Number two, you'll be invited to join my first ever interactive reading, culminating in a zoom call with me and my co author on this book, Kaylee Cox. Number three, you're going to be getting a money back guarantee to try the book risk free. And number four, you'll also get access to a free course I'm not selling anywhere called how to write a book 10x faster and better with an Affordable co author. You can claim all these bonuses in just two simple steps. Step 1 Pre order 5 mere Christians in any format you want. It can be hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever and you can order it from wherever. It doesn't matter to me. Step 2 Go to 5meerchristians.com and fill out the form of that page and that's it. I'll send you all those bonuses. You'll be entered into the sweepstakes with one simple form submission. But hey, don't wait all of these off, all of these offers, all these bonuses. They're going away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9th. So visit 5meerchristians.com right now to claim your bonuses.