S.D. Smith (Author of The Green Ember series)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back guarantee on this book. I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me, right. I know this is a very different biography. What is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right? So that's the first reason this is a risk and I'm gonna de risk this book for you. Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended. End quote. But here's the thing. In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on 5 mereChristians. Calm and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5merechristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as audiologists Housekeepers and special education teachers. That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to S.D. smith, also known as Sam Smith, the creator of the phenomenally successful Green Ember series. It's this work of fantasy, this adventure saga written through for kids, featuring heroic rabbits with swords and. Guys, I don't read a lot of fiction, but I cannot stop reading this series because it is dripping with kingdom language and themes. Sam and I sat down recently to talk about how we can see all of our vocations as participating in the ultimate mended wood of bringing heaven to earth. We talked about why Lord of the Rings was more spiritually powerful for Sam and than any Christian nonfiction. And we talked about the call to modesty, fidelity, and audacity in our work. Guys, you're not going to want to miss this. It is very rare that I will stop recording with a guest and spend another 10 minutes talking to them after the fact. This is one of those conversations. Do not miss this episode with my new friend, Sam Smith. Hey, Sam. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast.

I am so happy to be here with the one and only Jordan. I've always wanted to do an interview with Jordan.

Dude, I've been so excited about this. My listeners know I've talked about this a few times on the show. Up until a few years ago, I had read next to no fiction in my life. I mean, as a kid, sure, but not as an adult. And even now I don't read a ton. But I devoured the first two books in the Green Ember in preparation for today. Man, I thought I was gonna skim it in the name of prepping for the podcast, but I was so captivated by the story. And I'm not the only one. You guys have sold over a million copies in this series, but this started super small. You have a great origin story. Tell us the origin story of the Green Ember.

Oh, it is very modest, as most stories that begin in West Virginia are. I live in a rural part of West Virginia, which is like saying, you know, I live in the part of LA that has bad traffic. You know, that's, that's. It's kind of all rural. But I was on the porch with my daughter one day. She was just sort of a toddler, and there were rabbits hopping around in the yard. And I was just kind of the dad that used to tell stories to his kids and tell her sort of different kind of serial stories. One was called the Girl with Golden Wings, which actually came back later in some fiction of Mine as well, actually. I almost have no work out there in the world that doesn't relate to sort of stories I told my kids. But it was a very modest beginning. And she loved the little story that I told her about an older sister Rabbit and a younger brother Rabbit. She had a younger brother and we had another baby as well. And so that just sort of made its way into the story. And pretty soon that younger brother joined us. And I told her the story about these two Rabbit siblings going on these adventures. And. And it was really simple to begin with, but it became our bedtime, our stories on walks, that kind of a thing, our routine. And it was just a serial. That was for years and years until we sort of came to what is the. In the climax of the first Green Ember book, I remember exactly where we were, about a hundred yards from where I am now. And we sort of got through that moment. And we're all just really quiet. And my kids were like, daddy, that's really. That's really good. And I was like, in my mind, I was like, that's pretty good.

That's pretty good.

Yeah. Cause it was all improvised.

Best feeling ever.

And they said, daddy, you. You really should write this down. And that was the day that I thought, okay, I think you're right, we'll do that. And whether or not it becomes anything other than just sort of a relic in our home, a memorial to this time we had together, which was really, really special, I really genuinely, when we produced the book, I thought, that's what it'll be. It'll be that, you know, old grandpa had this story used to tell us. And if that's it, I was like, that is winning. That is a win. And we don't need anything else. And it's been kind of crazy that it didn't stop there.

So you ended up self publishing the book, but did you guys seek out the traditional publishing route first? Like, how did that work?

We didn't. Self publishing is true, but it's a little bit misleading because I had a partner, my brother in law, Andrew, who had worked in publishing. He's a bit of a polymath. He's really talented in lots of ways. And behind the scenes he's done so much. He really knew how to typeset a book really well and design. And so we sort of already had plans to start a small publishing house. And actually I didn't want to start with one of my books because I thought, oh, that doesn't look good, you know, we need to publish other people yeah, but he really loved it. He's like, no, the green number is really good. We need to do it. So he kind of insisted. So it's a little bit self publishing, a little bit kind of indie publishing, but whatever. It is very small out of our garage in West Virginia. So this is far from the Big five in New York, sort of. Or Big four. What are Big three as a big one by now? I don't know. Is there one publishing company?

I think we're down to one.

Yeah. It's just called Babel Publishing. So there wasn't really. In that time. There was a time where I was sending. I sent a couple of things off to a traditional publisher, but that was a pretty brief. I don't have the romantic story of thousands of rejection letters. I would have probably, but we just sort of bypassed that.

What do you credit God using from going to this small story with your kids to this massive series? I mean, God has just breathed on this thing.

Well, it's funny. For the first time ever, I spoke at a conference near where I live called Hope Words recently. And I shared. Basically, I shared with the audience. I said, let me tell you about the worst year of my life. And I told them about my health struggles, my marriage struggles, my vocational struggles, my church struggles, my mental health struggles, how this was having a horrible, horrible year and felt like a failure on every front. And that was the year my dad was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer in the middle of that. So just I sort of went into detail more openly than I probably ever had before about how much pain and struggle that I was in. It was really bad. I kind of was almost like. To that place where I wanted sort of a diagnosis. And even if it was fatal, I just wanted to know, like, not quite put me out of my misery, but it was a little bit like, I don't know. I don't know how I can go on. But that's the year I wrote the Green Ember. And I can't believe any light made it into that book, but it was this unbelievable gift. And I think about the things that are produced that it's sort of this natural. Unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground, there's this intense labor that precedes birth in the fallen world. And I just. I almost don't think artistically or maybe vocationally at all that it's difficult to find meaningful gifts for the world or for any kind of an audience or other to serve other people. That's not on the other side of pain. I think we want to go straight to the crown. But I feel like there's always a cross in the way, in these little ways, in these big ways. And so I don't know how much, but I will say that the books take suffering seriously. They take vocation seriously. They do. And I didn't. I never. There was nothing about the books that I said, you know what kids need, or, you know what families need, or do you know what suffering families need? Or any. I wasn't. I know it was. I want to tell a really cool story to my kids. And the other stuff just kind of. It came. It came. Tolkien talks about the sort of story ideas bubbling up from the leaf mold of the mind. And what was in that was a kingdom longing for. Sure. And a heart for my kids. But I wanted it to be entertaining. But I think that families who are going through suffering, who are going through cancer, childhood cancer, have countless occasions to hear from folks. Widow. I just heard from a widow at that same conference. I mentioned who said, these were the books that we walked through when my husband died and with my kids. And these were our stories, and we clung to them. And I've heard that over and over and over and over again. And I just don't think I could have written something that resonated with people that takes pain seriously. A lot of veterans families love the stories because they say, oh, I feel like it actually takes the vocation of a soldier seriously and what it means to their family. Even though it's rabbits and it's for kids, it really is. In some way, it sort of takes those vocations seriously. And I don't know. So I give God the glory for writing a better story than I was capable of or I would have been willing to probably accept. I mean, my life is his. And I definitely would always have said that for sure that I'm devoted to the Lord, but he's a much better storyteller than I am in my own story.

Amen.

I love that.

All right, I want to talk about how your faith has influenced these stories, and I love that you're not being terribly direct about it. But before we do, we've been talking in and around what this series is. I don't want to assume that our listeners have any idea what we're talking about. Right. Give us the gist of the green ember in this world that readers are walking into.

I'm so offended that you think that some people haven't heard of it.

Dude, somebody came up to me in the airport the other day. And they were like, you, Jordan? I'm like, yeah. He's like, can I take a picture?

I was like, sure.

He's like, man, I gotta apologize to you. Up until like a year ago, I had no idea who you were. I was like, Bro, 99.9999% of the world has no idea.

You think I'm offended?

Like, please.

And it's so funny. That's a good friend of mine who was an executive at DreamWorks for lots of years. He's like, this is Green. Numbers is the best story that you've defin heard of. It's under the radar. People do the same thing with me. And I'm like, dude, you're living your life. Believe me, that's going to be okay to hear about some hick storyteller from Appalachia. I think we'll all be all right.

So, listener, you're in good company, but let's bring you up to speed. Yeah.

The green ember. It's rabbits with swords. It's new stories with an old soul, I like to say. And I think that's really the appetite. I mean, the story is. I think one reason why it works is because it works for parents and kids, and it works for parents on this sort of deep level. You know, there's often this reaction at the end of the first book that kids are leaping off the couch and, like, pumping their fists and like, yeah, yeah, they're so excited. And the mom who's reading it aloud is crying. So we sort of. Kids leap for joy. Moms weep for joy. And that's sort of what's happened, so. And again, no planning on that. I didn't have, you know, Sarah McKenzie, who's the read Aloud revival, sort of guru. She said, well, obviously you've written this as a. To be a read aloud because it works so well as a read aloud. I'm like, nope, once again, no planning on that at all. No idea. I didn't know people still did that. It was really cool to hear. It's awesome. But anyway, I just. I cannot give myself any credit for any kind of cleverness there, marketing or anything, but I think people were really hungry for this. I think that market or that audience has been so neglected. Even my illustrator for the series, Zach Franzen, he had gone to a conference around the same time this came out, and they explicitly said, like, no, we're not doing personified animals. Like, that's so out. That's so passe. Like, we're everything that sort of has any sort of A whiff of traditional values. Like we have those old books and they sell. Go get Little House on the Prairie or go get Anne of Green Gables or go get Narnia or go get some of one of these old books that works that way. But I think what happened is people want that or have a real hunger for it. And it's a little bit like, he described it as kind of like the Jurassic park kind of situation. Like, oh, those are things that belong to the past or they belong in a museum. And the green embers a little bit like, oh, these old virtues, this old sort of moral imagination is like out there in the wild. Like it's happening now. I've had. I can't tell you how many people were reading the series along when I was writing it. And their kids were like, what? He's still alive? And I mean, they were so shocked that the next book wasn't ready because it hadn't been written, because they thought it was an old book. They thought it was like some of the other books that they'd read. So it tapped into something there. Maybe modern pacing a little bit and tied with sort of an old, old school, old fashioned virtue. I think maybe that's why it works.

Yeah. Yes. This is rabbits with swords fighting for the mended wood. So give us the storyline. Like if you were to introduce the book one in 60 seconds, what's the story?

You have two ordinary rabbits or they're actually, they're extraordinary rabbits and they're caught up in an ordinary life and they find out through a series of sort of cataclysmic events in their own. Their little idyllic hidden away world is interrupted and they find out that their family had something to do with this wider breaking of the world. Basically the rabbit kingdom was sort of betrayed and the king was killed and under some sort of treacherous circumstances. And is their family caught up in that? What's their dad's role in that? That kind of thing? That's a mystery. And everyone that's sort of in the resistance that's fighting for the cause, they are waiting for this heir. They're waiting for this heir of that king and he's hidden and they're all longing for him to come and sort of restore this mending that they long for, the mending of the wood, that everything would be put right. And all their vocations are sort of. They do them in anticipation of what it's going to be like when the mending comes. So that's. That feels really on the nose. But I actually kind of think almost all stories are like that. There's a golden age that's destroyed and there's a longing to sort of a better future age.

Yeah, all stories are right. They're all pointing to. It's what Lewis and Tolkien called the true myth of Christianity. That was Tolkien to Lewis was like, yeah, Christian is a myth in a sense, and that it helps us make sense of this world. But you weren't direct about. You're not direct about this in the book. There's not attract pointing kids to Christ as the true king that will mend the new Earth, because if you were, the books would have found a far smaller audience. But I got to imagine, I mean, my personal perspective is storytelling like this can prepare hearts to receive the gospel, can plant a seed of desire of this story being true in the ultimate about this actual world that we live in, even when the message isn't explicit. Would you agree with that, Sam?

Absolutely. If you're a Christian, this story will ring your bells. I mean, a lot of bells will be going off. I mean, the first people who wanted to make a movie of the Green Ember, which has kind of been a long series of folks, the first people were not Christians and they read it and they thought, this is a serious book for kids and I want to make a serious movie. This is kind of like Star Wars. This feels serious. And when you take the audience serious, then different things happen. And they said, explain to me what. What's Christian about this? Because they'd heard about it from some Christian people and they were like, tell me why this is. And I sort of got an opportunity to. And I definitely. I lean a little more towards Tolkien's model. Well, strongly I share his antipathy for allegory. He talked about allegory. He cordially disliked it and all its manifestations since he'd been old enough to detect it.

That's why he hated Narnia, even though Lewis said it wasn't an allegory.

Right. It was a supposal story, but. And he hated a lot of things, obviously Tolkien, but yeah, I sympathize not with his hatred of Narnia, but with his take on that. People often confuse application for allegory. And so the Lord of the Rings has dramatic. I mean, it's the most influential book spiritually maybe on me and counting almost everything I've ever read, including nonfiction. It's so formative because it gets at what you love. It made me want to love and love what was good in a way. And it's not because Aragorn is Jesus or that Gandalf is Jesus or the Holy Spirit or it's not as simple as that. There's allusion and there's application, but there is no allegory. It's not the heavy handed will of the author to dominate the reader, which I think is so prevalent with Christians. And I mean, Flannery o' Connor talks about the danger of sort of like ever since there was such a thing as a novel, there have been people making religious novels in a really bad way. And I can't remember her exact quotation, but she talks about how just because it's got correct information or it's religious in the right way, doesn't dispense with the necessity to penetrate reality, to penetrate concrete reality. And so I think that's such a important thing. It's so lazy to think. I think a lot of Christians with good intentions think kids like candy. So hey, you know what, let me go make candy or something. And that may be simple to do, but our kids like rap. So I will now go make a wrap. You know, and the arrogance. I'm thinking like that you don't have to do the work. You don't have to do the work. I'm going to be a Christian painter. Well, you have to paint. You have to paint great.

It's the ministry of excellence first, being true to the art form first.

Right, right. Because God made the world, this is my contention, is because creation is true. And that means that what God made was good. And so that means that the tree in the valley with the sunlight going through its branches by the babbling brook is already proclaiming the glory of God. It doesn't need you to carve John 3:16 on it in order to make it Christian. It's doing its work. And I think, we think, well, I'll make it better. The arrogance that we have of like, I will, you know, kids really like stories. So I tell you what, I really like Christianity. So I tell you what, I'll go and with no history and storytelling, with no humility to read a thousand books or to spend the time on the craft, I'll go see if I can just do something that uses that as a vehicle to convey this really important truth. We're not arguing about the importance of the truth. We just have. You have no respect for the car, for the vehicle. You have no respect for. And I think that's an impoverished view of creation. Because God made pancakes. You don't need to put Jesus loves you on the pancakes. Just give them to the kids. Just feed the kids. It's so good. Just feed their imagination. And I'm speaking to the choir, I'm sure there. But I feel so strongly about the importance of honoring the work, honoring the vocation itself, and being committed to excellence. Yes. And I think it's a shame that so much of Christianity arts, which is a new thing for brand new thousand years, we have Christians dominating the arts in the height of excellence. And we've got to recover that doctrine of vocation, that doctrine of creation.

Dude, CS Lewis got this in spades. He totally understood this. I'm featuring his story in my new collection of biographies named five Year Christians after this podcast. And obviously blatant steel from Louis. And there's this quote from Lewis. I'm actually not sure if it made it into the biography, but I think about it all the time where he says, the world doesn't need more Christian books. By the way, P.S. jordan, sidebar, as if books have a soul.

They don't have souls.

Right. The world doesn't need more Christian books. The world needs more Christians writing great books. Right word, right?

Yes.

And man, like, that's his story. Like, do you know the story of Lewis reading Fantasties for the first time when he was 17?

Oh, yeah. Oh, for sure.

Oh, my gosh. Like, this is it. So for our listeners who don't know, I'll try to give it, like, really, really tightly. I think he was 17 at the time. Well steeped in his atheism, certain there.

Was no God, being discipled by an incredible atheist.

Yeah, that's right. The great knock.

The Great knock, yeah.

Kirkpatrick was his tutor. And when Lewis was under Kirkpatrick's care, he's sitting at a train station and he's bored. He's looking for a good novel. He picks up this weird one about fairies and whatever called fantastic. And he reads it and he points to that moment, reading that novel that made no mention of Jesus Christ as the moment in which his imagination was baptized. And there was a hairline fracture in his atheism. Because he's like, man, there is something transcendent that I can't explain with reason. There's something so beautiful and so marvelous about this story, I can't put my finger on it. And he described it in his autobiography as holiness.

Holiness.

He saw a glimpse of the kingdom of God through that story. And that's what he did with Narnia. Right. Years later, he finds out that George McDonald, this pastor, wrote fantasties Right. And dude, this is what you're doing with the green ember again. Our day and age. You are man. I don't think this is too strong of words. You are one of hopefully many Lewis's, but certainly one of the greatest at this, using your vocation as an exceptional novelist to plant kingdom cravings in the hearts of readers without being terribly direct about it, because you don't have to be, because God can do more to water and grow that seed than you ever could. Amen.

Amen. Word up. Yeah, I'm totally with you. That holiness. Without holiness, no one will see the Lord. And that whole connection of that has so impacted me. And the thing about the books that have influenced me, and you think about the Lord of the Rings, there is such an aura of holiness, of wonder, of gratitude, of greatness, of goodness. A lot of people don't even have an.

It's shalom.

It is. It is. A lot of people do not even have this. You know, I think my books are the version that would be written by a country boy from West Virginia, which is a reality.

You're not an Oxford don.

No, I'm nowhere near his capacity for sure. But God doesn't need. I mean, C.S. lewis would have lived forever if that's exactly what he needed, and he will. But what we need now is we need other people telling stories. And people don't have an. Often might not have any encounters with, like, deep goodness, just goodness. You just tell a story where there is deep goodness that will shine, that will contrast in such profound ways. And I keep thinking about vocation, you know, if you think about the vocation of, like, a Christian who plays basketball in the NBA. I used to think about David Robinson all the time, because he was. I looked up to him so much. David. But it's kind of like the idea if it's a struggle to sort of get your mind around it. The idea is, you know, if David is going down and he blocks a shot and he runs the floor, takes an alley, oop and dunks it really hard, is the best thing for him to do at that point, turn to the audience and say, jesus loves you. Jesus saves sinners. I'm trying to think of the best possible version of it. Jesus saves the humble heart. You know, we come to him and repent. And the good news is that the kingdom, you know, if he did that or if he bent down to pray in that moment, did something, gave glory to God, is that the best thing he should do? And my contention is he should get back on defense because that's what a good basketball player does. And it doesn't help, you know, the sort of. And I think Christ invades all voca. I mean, Luther said Christ is hidden in vocation, which I think Gene Edward Vieth used to talk about how that was a way of saying he's present. And I 100% believe that. I believe that it all belongs to Christ and he's the Lord. That doesn't mean that you do a better job of repairing a truck if you put cross stickers all over it or if you just read the Bible over it. That doesn't fix trucks generally. I don't think that would be a awesome. If it did, I might try it. But the respect for vocation I feel like is so important. And I agree with you that we're desperate for those. And stories I do think are unique vehicles for. I mean, Lewis again talked about the intellect is the organ of truth and that the imagination is the organ of meaning. That meaning is so. That stories are meaning making machines. So I do think it's really important and I don't actually, because I think of. Oh, we just need to tell good stories. That that means every kind of story or every kind of author is just. It's all fin. Nothing we should be worried about. I think actually stories are extremely dangerous because they're so potent. So potent. So what we imbibe what, our diet? Steady diet. I think about kids a lot. If you're a steady diet of horror and unbelief and sacrilege and profanity, that will have an impact that will go to your soul. So they're very, very potent things. But that doesn't mean that we need to reduce them to mere utilitarian vehicles.

That's right. They don't have to be direct, but they have to be. You mentioned holiness. They also have to have a wholeness to them. The art has to be whole. The art has to be true to itself. It's the Dorothy Sayers quote that's so famous, right? About no ill fitting drawers coming out of the carpenter shop in Nazareth. Right. The only Christian work.

Yes.

Is work that is first and foremost well done and pursued with the minister of excellence. All right. Hey, speaking of vocation, you have to tell our listeners about my favorite scene in the first book about this calling ceremony. Oh my word. So my VP of marketing who turned me on to these books, who, by the way, her seven year old banner says hi. He is a raving superfan of S.D. smith. So tell us this story and Take as much time as you'd like describing it, because it's one of the most beautiful things I've ever read. This calling ceremony. These little rabbits take us into that scene.

Yeah. I think it's a community. If you imagine sort of like the rebellion in Star wars, they're kind of underground. They're hidden in these secret citadels, these rabbits.

That's what it reminded me of. That or Katniss and everyone in District 13 in Hunger Games.

Right, exactly. That's what it feels like. And they're hidden away in these sort of alcoves. And most of them are dedicated to war, which is a necessity in this because that's what they're doing. They're fighting. They're fighting for something. But. But inside of this, particularly in one of these citadels that these kids find their way into, there's a real focus on we have to be ready for, if we win the war, what kind of people we're going to be. So we anticipate the victory, we anticipate this mending that's coming, and we are behaving in harmony with that future mending. And therefore, vocations matter. Therefore, having babies matters. Therefore, making a crutch that's useful and maybe beautiful is valuable. Therefore, we have gardeners that have vocations that matters because we're feeding and we have people who sew and people who make clothing. And some of that supports the army and some of it doesn't. But it all is in this sort of coherent community. And they have a beautiful thing where they have a calling ceremony and it's sort of teased in a part where there's a young rabbit doe who is being inducted sort of into this. Into this vocation. And I think. I can't remember. She's the garden mistress. Gloria Folds, I believe is her name. She is being called. And it's just sort of like old idea of apprenticeship, which I think is romantic and interesting and even necessary. I think we've lost a lot of sort of that vocational knowledge. And we've. I think. I don't know, we could go into sort of why maybe, like the college system is not always as helpful for everybody. And how the value of trades and the value of apprenticeship and the value of discipleship, the value of coming under the instruction of people. And that's what happens. There's a ceremony associated with it and the person is called, like, literally sort of called into it. And it's like a rite of passage kind of a thing, which I think, again, we need more Rites of passage. I think we need more rights in general because I think we are beings who. We think that we're brains on a stick. And we think that it's all intellectual and rational people. But actually, you know what my dad used to say, and his sort of country boy maxim was, what you say you do is not what you do. What you do is what you do. And I think that that's really profound, that we are beings who do things with our bodies and our bodies matter. And so that's part of this. And this become really important. Actually, for one of the young soldier in training, Pickett, there's a very moving scene with him and his mentor, who's called Helmer and is a very, very central character and actually a deeply beloved character by the Green Ember audience. Partly out of this ritual of belonging, this ritual, this rite of passage, this rite of induction into vocation that happens in the story.

I loved it so much. I loved that the whole community stopped. I can't remember what got their attention, but basically they're like all, hey, you're going to induct this young rabbit into an apprenticeship with this older rabbit that's going to mentor them in this craft. And everyone puts down their traits. Everyone stops what they're doing and just rallies around it. And it's this tremendous ceremony of blessing and seeing the goodness of the work and calling out in this young rabbit that they've got what it takes to be great at this vocation that's going to contribute to the mending wood. The mended wood. And as I'm reading, I'm thinking to myself, this is what the church should look like. Older and more mature members who are masters of their crafts, coming alongside younger believers, yes, to disciple them in the truths of scripture, but also to disciple them vocationally and help them see how their craft is a part of contributing to the ultimate mended wood, the new heavens and the new earth. And I gotta ask, man, because it's so rare to see visions of this anywhere. Did you grow up in a church tradition that, like, nailed this and knocked it out of the park?

I would say no on that front.

I'm not surprised to hear that.

But I've grown into that. I think in some ways, that's become very important to me. When I'm thinking about sort of my own family growing up. I mean, my parents were missionaries and wonderful. And I think a lot of the churches that we were associated with were. Would think of more of, like, there are Christian vocations. There's a Calling to serve the Lord and then sort of everything else kind of exists to support. That's sort of what I grew up with. And I think the tradition that I've brought my family into and we are practicing has, I would say, a more robust view of the doctrine of vocation. And that's part of the reason we're there is because of my desire for them to see all these vocations as valuable. I think that I was really learning that I was really being exposed to that in a deep and profound way when I wrote the Green Ember. It's funny because you've just read it recently, but that's been 10, 15 years ago. I mean, so I don't even. I remember it. And I remember how important it was and how formational it was. And this idea of anticipating the kingdom of God. You can probably figure out some of the people I was. I was reading. And that was, again, I didn't intend to just insert that in the story. It just, this has to happen. It was like, this has to happen. This is a good community. They're going to value vocation. And I will say that I don't want to be disrespectful to my parents at all because I think my dad, again with that little maxim, what you say you do is not what you do, what you do is what you do. He would also say, all work is honorable. Work, work. So I grew up, I cleaned toilets, I worked at restaurants. I've done a lot of what people would call menial labor, and I'm so thankful for that. And my father had such a high view of work, such a high view of the value of work and how honorable it was to go to work. And so I grew up with that. More caught than taught, probably.

Yeah, it's really good anytime I speak to high schoolers or college students. In fact, I just did this the other day a week ago at North Greenville University. I asked them to stand by the types of vocations that they feel God calling them into business, the arts, the trades, law enforcement, whatever, and donors board, missionaries and pastors. And I basically back the faculty into a corner and say, great, we're going to commission all these kids for the work of the Lord right now, Lay hands on these kids, and we're going to pray a prayer blessing. Not that they need our permission. We just saw in my talk is like showing them, hey, hearing God's word, you've got explicit IT permission. Jesus spent 80% of his adult life swinging a hammer. Not preaching right, but Then explicitly commission them. It's my own mini version of the green ember. Call in ceremony at mass scale. It's one of my favorite things. These kids, teenagers are like weeping.

Oh.

Because nobody's ever told them that they can want to be a programmer. Like that's cool. Like I could do. I want to write stories and that's okay. Which it reminds me of this line in the green number I wanted to read for our listeners. I think Heather might be well suited for the tail spinners. Emma said, nudging her friend. And Heather felt panic rise and she looked away. Why am I so afraid of what I love to do? End quote. Right. Because you're talking about Heather and her love of stories. But she doesn't feel permission to love the work of writing stories. Was that autobiographical?

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Heather is the most. I mean, apart from the fact that she's a female rabbit and I'm a male human being. And these are for people who are like, what kind of a rabbit story is this? Are they very rabbity? They're people. I mean it's really about what's going on in their mind and their heart. They're very much. All the moral complexity is inside the rabbits hearts. And so it's a deep human sort of reflections. And Heather is my character in a lot of ways. She's afraid of the things I'm afraid of. She's responsible in some of the ways that I'm responsible. She's got. We got a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses. So yeah, that's definitely. She's afraid. And I think that's. Sometimes that can be a real indicator for vocation about like this really scares me. Well, there might be sort of like that resistance. I feel this resistance. It's like this love and this fear. Almost like we care so much about it that we don't want to get it wrong. And there are a lot of things for artistically inclined people, and I hate the word creatives, I hate as a noun, but people who are sort of in that. That who have creativity at sort of the center of their vocational sort of awareness. I think there is a lot of fear. There's a lot of introverted people that fit that description. A lot of people who are nervous. I have had unbelievable validation of that later in life, like late in life to me. And I've so desperately wanted to communicate this idea that God calls all kinds of people to. God calls a farmer and God calls a parrot and God calls a pastor and God calls a plumber and God calls a writer, and there is so much power in. I love that you said that you did that. That is such a beautiful. That you take those vocations seriously, that you honor those callings. And we all have multiple ones. We all have multiple vocations. We have multiple callings. But I even think about Bezalel. I mean, that was in my Bible reading recently, but Bezalel and Oholiab specifically called because of their ability to craft. And they do so many different things, but they're their artists, and they make things for beauty and for glory. And if you're an artist, if you're a writer, if you are an illustrator, read that story, read about it. And actually it's repeated. It's such a. It's. I mean, we think, oh, that's a really boring part of. I'll skip that in my devotion. Don't skip that. Read about Bezalel. It's the first person in scripture who's filled with the spirit. Yeah.

I wrote about this in my first book called To Create, and people continue to reference that all the time. That Bezela was the first person in scripture mentioned is being filled with the spirit of God, which doesn't make sense on the surface, but if you're reading Genesis 1, it makes all the sense in the world. Before God tells us that he is holy, before he tells us that he is just, before he tells us that he is loving. The only thing we know about God's character until verse 26, where it says, let us make mankind in our image is that he's a God who creates.

Right. And that it's good. And he evaluates, he creates, he evaluates, he commentates to make sure the art is good. Good. Yeah, dude.

I love it. Sam. We wrap up every episode the same way. Four questions I ask every guest. Number one, look ahead to the ultimate mended wood and the new earth. Isaiah 65 makes it crystal clear we'll have perfect vocations, free from the curse of sin. What job would you love for God to give you to do on the new earth?

So I think immediately three things come to mind, and I don't know which to give you, but I'll.

You got billions a year, so you could probably do more than three. Yeah.

Multiple locations. And writing poetry, I think writing and poetry. I feel like I will keep going. I'd like to keep going in that field. I'd also like to make bird feeders. My papa made bird feeders, and I love them. And they're beautiful. And he loved birds. He Loved to sit on the porch and think about birds. And there might be some sweet correlation between writing poetry and making bird feeders, but I think probably the big one might be playing a sport. I love playing sports. And when you get a. I'm 48 and it's kind of like I can still play a little bit and I want to keep playing as much as I can, but I know that that's fading and the idea that I could renew something that is so. I think people think about athletes as being very selfish and there's reasons for that and a lot of money and all that kind of stuff. But I never feel less anxious, less self forgetful than when I'm playing sports. So it's like music does that sometimes worship, sometimes there's different times. But when I play sports, I just forget about myself and I play and it's just so fun. It's so physically special. I think something about the kingdom, I think I'm excited about, about the capacity that I believe we will have to sort of use or utilize to. I don't know if that's the right word to engage our bodies.

Glorified bodies. Yeah.

And in sports there's so much storytelling and there's so much. There's a little bit of like poetry. You think about how plays come together or so it's almost like it's. I don't know, I think playing, inventing. I've always invented sports since I was a kid and there invented sports in the green ember. So maybe inventing, playing sports might be something I'd love to do.

Do, dude. All right, I'm going to send you a copy of both of my picture books. The creator in you, which is an exposition on Genesis 1 and 2. And then the royal in you, which is an exposition of Revelation 21 to 22. And imagine the work that we'll do on the new Earth because there's a spread in there where I'm imagining like all the different things these kids might do. And one of them is create a new sport.

Yes.

No need to worry about getting hurt or needing to hurry. Right? And man, like that sounds fun to me. That sounds really fun.

I'm so excited to be exposed to your work. And I'm like the guy I've got the airport I've got to apologize for.

You know. You'll dig it.

You'll dig those books, I'm sure.

Yeah, those books would be special. I. Hey, if we opened up your Amazon order history, speaking of books, which books would you find you buying Most frequently to give away to friends. I hate the question, like, what do you recommend the most? Because that's so personal. But like, just look at the data. What are you buying?

Yeah, I would love to show off and say something really smarmy and cool. But now A Diary of Private Prayer by John Bailey is probably my most gifted book. And probably with that might be the Prodigal God. Tim Keller. It depends on who I'm talking to, where they are in their journey. If it's early, then it's Prodigal God. If it's a little bit later, John Bailey. My advice is don't get the new updated version, but if you can find the old one that's more original, it's so, so beautiful. Morning and evening prayer, which would be. It's a good gateway, you know, when you don't know how to. You don't know the word words, you don't know what to say. He just says them. He just says the word. He just says. I mean, I love it. It's kind of a gateway drug into maybe like the Book of Common Prayer or something like that, which I think is really valuable.

I don't know that book. I gotta check that out. I'm a huge Prodigal God fan. In fact, you, you were mentioning, you were listening to my episode with Kathy Keller. I think Kathy said Prodigal God is like her go to Tim recommendation as like a starting point. She's like, that's the essence of the gospel.

Yeah, she did.

Distilled and accessible.

That was cool to hear because I mean, my children, when I want my kids to understand the gospel, I give them that book and it's been revolutionary with particularly. Both of my sons have just been. And like it was for me, just really profound. So wonderful.

How old are your sons?

I have a 19 and a 16 year old son.

Yeah, that's a good age for Prodigal God. It's a great age.

Then I have two. I have a 22 year old daughter and a 13 year old daughter. I think they all. It's. Yeah, it's, it's fantastic.

Hey, if you could pick anybody in the world to come onto this podcast and talk about how their faith is shaping their quote unquote secular work that I do not believe is secular, who would it be?

Man, I want to cheat again. Kenneth Padett comes to mind immediately because he writes books for Wolfbane books. I don't know if you're familiar with them. You would love, love, love Kenneth Padgett. He and his friend Shay Gregory write these books. The Story of God, the Story of God our Savior, the Story of God our King. They are so profoundly good. I think you would love them. Yeah, all their books are fantastic. And he's a wonderful, wonderful author. And then I think about Nate Bargazi.

Oh, man.

So Nate, you got to have him on.

We got a yes from Nate, and then they extended his tour, and then it just didn't happen. And so we got to get Nate scheduled. We actually had Nate's dad, Steven the magician.

I listened to it. It was fantastic.

You listen to my episode with him.

I loved it so much. I loved it.

I have cried in very few episodes of this. But when he. When Stephen was talking about going and seeing his mom was on her deathbed and walking up those stairs saying, I'm going to get an apology. She's going to finally apologize for abandoning me, abusing me, and just realizing, nope, I have to breathe grace and offer her forgiveness. I know very few people whose hearts have been so transformed by the gospel. Like, it was such a beautiful story. He's a beautiful person. He and I text ever so often and he's just amazing. So that's a great answer.

I love him. I love it. Well, and Nate, to me, a lot of people probably like you and me, a lot of people that we know, there's probably a temptation in some of these circles to be like, oh, it's smart people talking about smart things with each other. They're smart people. And it's a little bit. There's the temptation to the inner ring. There's a temptation to snobbishness and like, oh, I've read. Have you read the. You know, we've read the right books and you've not read the. You know, you want to be committed to excellence. But I like what I love that Nate is not. That's not really him. He's living it. And I think there's so many people in my life in West Virginia, like my friend who's a stump grinder, his name's Bill Massey. I thought about mentioning him. Like, he's just like, I would love to talk to him and I'd love that you respect that. I love the emphasis of your thing and you even talk about in your intro that. That it's, you know, it could be like technical writers. I love the anti snobbish. Like some of these collectives of we're creative Christians and we really know what's going on can be so stuffy and so snobby and almost like, there's almost like an attitude of like, if you do sort of sell books or something, it's almost like, well, you know, if you were really elite, then none of your books would sell because only the right. And there's the attitude of that, like in New York and around book awards and stuff. So anyway, I love like, you know, like Tom Petty. I love Tom Petty. He's like this incredible artist. Not a Christian or anything, but I love that he was this great craftsman of songs. But he also liked to be successful and he liked his audience and he had this sort of like, don't, Boris, get to the chorus kind of an attitude. And I like that. I like when artists have that kind of attitude of like, I'm not too cool for my people. Like, I'm not trying to get into this small group. I'm actually trying to love. So I just think about love and service in my vocation is better than fame and self expression. And I just want to. I want to love people and serve them. And I think about Nate.

He just.

He's just not talking about it. He's not a genius, you know, he probably wouldn't be as articulate as a lot of people, but he's doing it and he's loving people and he's the best comic in the world. Going back to what we talked about earlier. He's the best. He's the best and he's killing it. And he's doing it in a way that appears to me to be really faithful. And so I love people like that. I would probably rather hang out with the stump grinders and the guys who are washing dishes and stuff than maybe the Ivy League professors. Nothing against them, but bro.

Sam, I've never talked about this in the show. You and I are going to be friends for a long time. Time. And this is. It is so rare to find somebody, to find a Jesus, even a Jesus follower, who is committed to being the very best in the world at what they do, who isn't a pretentious snob.

Yes.

Like, I like.

I totally.

That list of people is very, very, very short, which is so sad. And, and I love the way my friend Scott Jatani puts this. We need to pursue the mission of Jesus. Right? Which I do think is a call to the pursuit of excellence. But we must never sacrifice the methods of Jesus. It's why I hate it when people are like, oh, you're the average of the five people you hang out with the most. Jesus was not the average of the five people who he hung out with.

The most.

Right. Like, I'm not trying to just get into the rooms that can up my average. Like, my goal is to lower my average. I want to spend more time with the customers at our food pantry, at our church, because Jesus says I can learn more and visiting them than I can visiting the elite. Anyways, I'm ranting. All right, final question.

Well, that's. No, it's beautiful for, like, to me, because I get to. My vocation is serving children. And like you with your children's books, that is such a gift, to be able to love little children and to be like, to be a blessing to them and get under them and serve them is such. And to be an ally to desperate parents. Like, that's. I love that as a vocation. It's like, it helps a lot.

100%. All right, Sam, last question. Talked about a lot of different themes around faith and work. What's one thing you want to underscore, highlight, reiterate to our listeners as a charge before we go?

Well, I mean, I think it's such a theme with what you're saying is I would think about the gifts that you have and the needs of the world and the call on your heart to love and walk into your vocation with modesty, fidelity, and audacity. These are three words that I try to hold onto. Is it modesty? Because I don't want to be too big for my britches. I'm from the hills of West Virginia. That's part of my background. Also because God made the world and he hates the proud. He gives grace to the humble fidelity. I want to be faithful to Jesus Christ because he's the Lord of all and because all those things are true. Go for it.

Yes.

Like, go try to do something cool. Go for it. Because you can be audacious. Because I think of it in terms of sports. I was played as a striker in soccer and go, go try to score. Go try to be disruptive up there. You've got a great defense behind you. They've got you covered. It's okay. Go be audacious. And I think about that as a Christian, just like the big things kind of settled because of what Christ has done. So you can, I mean, be responsible and all that. Be modest, be faithful, but go for it.

But be audacious and take big swings. Not because you are awesome, but you have the creator, God living and working through you.

You.

Yeah, it's the difference between people who take small swings in life, in my experience, spend a lot of time looking in A mirror at their own self confidence. When Jesus calls us to look out the window at the glory of God and marvel at his power that is at work within us. When you do that, oh boy, you can't help but take the biggest swings on the planet because at the end of the day, you have nothing to lose. They're not big swings for your fame and fortune. They're big swings for the mended wood, for advancing God's kingdom on earth as it is in heaven. And even if you strike out by the world's standards, you can't fail by God's. Because at the end of the day, you're still an adopted child of the king. Right?

Right, Right. Dude, it's so true. And so many writers need to hear that. So many young authors and writers need to hear exactly what you just said. They need to. Because the easiest thing in the world is to not write and to navel gaze and to think about how I'm coming off and to think about how nervous I am and then to think about how weird it is that I'm being nervous and I'm acting weird. And instead of just thinking like, I've got to find somebody to love. Love. Yeah, you gotta go serve somebody. And that means. That means that when somebody reviews my book and it's. They say it's terrible, whatever, that's not the end of the world.

That's right.

It feels like the end of the world. It's not. You're trying to find these people and.

Love them so good man. Sam, gosh, I want to commend you for the exceptional work you're doing. Thank you for the glory of God in the good photos part. Thank you for using your talents to plant these cravings, these little seeds of cravings of the ultimate mended wood in the hearts of millions of kids and grown ups, right? And yeah, just thank you for. Man, I love that. Modesty, fidelity and audacity. Thank you for that reminder, guys. I cannot recommend Sam's work highly enough. Again, I said I've read the first two books of the Green Number series in full, by the way. We're releasing this on April 30th. You've got some big news to share, right?

I do. I'm super excited now. People for years have been asking how the Green Number grows off the page. You know, movies, tv, a lot of hunger for that kind of thing. And I would say we're working on it. Waiting for the right partners, the right timing. I think that will come in time. But we were excited that the first step of the green number off the page is the new video game, which is a video gameization of a novel. So we have the new novel is the helmer backstory. It's his origin story. So it's a front door. Anybody can come in it. You don't have to read anything else. So it's his origin story and it is a game and it is a novel. They're both the same story. I wrote them both. And it's a hospitable game. No micro ads, no weird kind of a chat connections. It's kind of an old school game. It's got a beginning, a middle and an end. Unlike a sort of an endless addiction cycle. It's very hospitable to kids, which we're being told by many people is not feasible in the market. So I hope they're wrong. And if you're interested in that kind of a thing being hospitable to kids, then it might be something you would look for. But yeah, for the next few days we'll have it on Kickstarter. And my heart, my prayer genuinely is that it's that it's a great gift to these kids who need hope, who need stories, stories that give them hope.

If people want to back the project in Kickstarter, what do they need to search for?

I would just go to sdsmith.com there'll be a link to it there. That's easy place to find me. And yeah, it'll be there.

Perfect. Sam, thanks for hanging with us, man. Appreciate you.

Jordan, this is awesome. I'm so grateful for your work and I'm excited to dive into your kids books. I can't wait.

I freaking loved that conversation with Sam. I hope you guys did too. I said this on the show, but I'll reiterate this here. The Green Ember reminds me so much of the Chronicles of Narnia because both of these series stir something deep in the soul of children and grown ups that softens our hearts to the gospel. And hey, if you're a CS Lewis fan, do not miss your chance to win this epic trip I'm giving away for you and a friend to go explore some of Lewis's favorite spots in England, like Magdalene College at Oxford, this pub that Louis used to to hang out at with Tolkien and his home at the Kilns. The winner will also fly to Denmark to visit Legoland and some places beloved by Lego's founder Olay Kirk Christiansen, another mere Christian that I'm featuring in my new book. So all you got to do is pre order my new book 5Mere Christians and report your pre order at 5MereChristians.com and you'll be entered to win this epic trip. But don't wait. The Sweet Sweepstakes closes on May 9th. Thank you guys so much for listening. I'll see you next week. Hey friends, this is your last chance to claim all the amazing pre order bonuses for five mere Christians before they go away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9. I've never offered this many pre order bonuses on a book before, so when you fill out the form@5merechristians.com Number one, you're going to be entered to win an incredible trip for you and a friend to tour C.S. lewis's favorite spots in Oxford, explore Ole Kirk Christiansen's former stomping grounds at Lego headquarters in Denmark and much more. Number two two. You'll be invited to join my first ever interactive reading, culminating in a zoom call with me and my co author on this book, Kaylee Cox. Number three, you're going to be getting a money back guarantee to try the book risk free. And number four, you'll also get access to a free course I'm not selling anywhere called how to write a book 10x faster and better with an affordable co author author. You can claim all these bonuses in just two simple steps. Step 1 Pre order 5 mere Christians in any format you want. It can be hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever and you can order it from wherever. Doesn't matter to me. Step 2 Go to 5meerchristians.com and fill out the form of that page. And that's it. I'll send you all those bonuses. You'll be entered into the sweepstakes with one simple form submission. But hey, don't worry. Wait all of these off. All of these offers, all these bonuses. They're going away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9th. So visit 5merechristians.com right now to claim your bonuses.