Sean Devereaux (Executive Producer)

The episode you're about to listen to was released back when the Mere Christians podcast was called the Call to Mastery. Now, if you love Mere Christians, you're still going to love these older episodes because the majority of each conversation focuses on how the gospel influences the work of our guests. With that disclaimer out of the way, please enjoy the episode. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I'm Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. Every week, I host a conversation with a Christian who's pursuing world class mastery of their craft. We talk about their path to mastery, their daily habits, and how the gospel of Jesus Christ influences their work. Man, today's episode is a fun one. Today I've got my friend Sean Devereaux. He's an executive producer and visual effects artist for major films like Transformers, no big deal, Patriots Day, American Underdog. I could go on and on and on. Sean and I talked about a lot of fun stuff about how the Wicked Witch of the west traumatized both of our childhoods. We talked about how the Oscar process works and why you need to kill your backup plans for your work today. You're going to love this episode. Please enjoy it with Shaun Devereux. Shawn Devereux, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you for having me, Jordan. Very glad to be here.

So I gotta ask, we're recording this, like, I don't know, a week or two after maybe the most infamous Oscar event of all time. You're a member of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences. Were you there? Were you in the room for the slap?

I'm glad to say I was not in the room. I'm glad I wasn't one of the people that stood up and gave him a standing ovation when the award is won. But with crowd mentality, that's certainly something that could have happened, especially on a night that's so crazy and the cameras are everywhere. I'm really glad I can. I'm not one of the people that says, yeah, I stood up at the end too. So, yeah, what a wild night. It is the wildest ever. It's really such a sad thing that that happened, especially with movie theaters in particular. I really have such a heart for them. As a fan of cinema, it really doesn't impact my, you know, my ability to do my work or affect my career because there's all these streaming services now that I get to create work for. But as a fan of cinema, the Oscars are an unabashed advertisement for selling tickets to theaters. And with. Even before COVID of course, theaters were having a hard time keeping up with, you know, the video game competition and streaming, and then Covid hit and literally shut them down. So for me, the Oscars is that kind of the biggest billboard in the world for go see a movie in the theater, and then everyone's talking about a slap rather than, let's go see the best movies of the year back in theaters, you know? Yeah.

I've always been fascinated by the process of the Academy and how this all works. What's the basics of this? You're in the inside. How does the process of voting for the Oscar winners work?

So it's honestly really fun. The Academy is actually broken up into different branches. So, for example, there's a music branch, there's a sound branch, there's an acting branch, there's a visual effects branch, and the individual branches actually select the nominees. So, for example, I'm not in the acting branch, so I don't get to help pick who gets nominated. But so the acting branch is that the people specializing in that skill or that craft pick the best of the best of the year. And then once all the nominees are chosen, then as a group, we collectively, we get to vote on all categories. And the process takes a couple months, and it's, you know, well vetted, and we have access to, of course, all the movies that come out over the course of the year, which is by far the greatest benefit as a movie fan. And I try to watch as many as I can. And then especially for the ones within my branch, which is visual effects. Yeah. I try to, you know, definitely watch everyone and really take into consideration, you know, every nominee. And a lot of them now at this point are my friends. So it's kind of hard to. You can't play favorites because I, you know, they're all my favorites now.

Yeah, right, exactly. Wait, so how does this work? Is there like a. An exclusive Academy app where you stream all this content?

Yes, there is. So they used to send us these wonderful 4K Blu rays that we could watch, and then, you know, once in a while, they may slip out and let a friend borrow. Now, it's exclusively digital, so we have an app on our phones, on our laptops, and of course, Apple TV and Roku and things like that. So you can just watch it at the comfort of your home. Or we also get free tickets to theaters, of course.

So I'm not a big movie buff. I know I shouldn't Be admitting this to you.

No. You should be.

I'm huge into tv. Like, I love television. But I did watch Coda before the Oscars, and I just loved the film. It just such a big heart. It wasn't dark. It was just a beautiful film, and I was really happy to see it win.

I was, too. I voted for it. I loved the film. A lot of my friends made it. It was made back in my hometown in Boston, or right outside of there in Gloucester. And it was just so sweet and so poignant and grounded and truthful, and let us see into a world that I don't think many of us, you know, many of, just don't know what it's like to be the only hearing member of a deaf family. So seeing that point of view and just wonderful emotional scenes, but also funny. I mean, I thought the balance of both humor and drama and relationships was so wonderful. So wonderful.

Speaking of another Best Picture winner, there's this scene in Chariots of Fire that a lot of Christians are familiar with where Eric Liddell is explaining to his sister why he wants to be a runner and not a missionary. And he says, because when I run, I feel God's pleasure.

Right.

And I think a lot of people have experienced that, but have a really hard time defining that. But I actually think the best explanation of what it looks like to feel God's pleasure came from Koda. It's a scene where I can't remember the protagonist's name. The girl.

Oh, my gosh. You're going to. I'm on the spot now.

Whatever. Okay. The main character.

Yes.

Is talking to her music teacher. And the music teacher says, what do you feel when you sing? And she can't articulate it with words and shows, so she uses sign language to communicate it.

Wasn't that beautiful? Yeah.

Oh, my gosh. I was like, that's feeling God's pleasure.

Yes. I love.

That's what it is. I just thought. I thought it was really great. You and I have connected before, but I've never asked you this. Like, did you want to work in movies, like, from an early age? Was this always your dream?

I knew at the age of four that this is what I want to do the rest of my life.

Wait, what was the movie? Was it like, ET like, what. What got you into this?

The wizard of Oz.

Ah, it's so good.

And it wasn't because I was so moved by it, emotional or excited when Dorothy got home. It's because the Wicked Witch of the west scared me so severely that I Felt a. I never felt an emotion that strong in my life. And at that point and to this day, I honestly don't think I felt an emotion as strong as the fear I felt watching the Wicked Witch of the west burst into flames and, you know, dissolve into the ground on a little 13 inch color TV, by the way, that was not in theaters. But I was so. The emotion was so strong that my initial reaction was complete blood curdling fear. But then in hindsight, quickly after, it was tremendous curiosity. And then wanting to do that to other people, not necessarily the fear, but wanting to figure out a way to help people feel those kind of strong emotions through this little flat screen in front of me.

So funny. My first memory of a film is also the wizard of Oz.

Nice.

And I remember the first dream I can remember is the Wicked Witch laughing. Just. It's her face laughing at me. And I remember I had the dream like multiple times. So it's very disturbing that both of us had very disturbing experiences with the Wicked Witch.

Well, her performance was terrifying. I just watched the movie again two weeks ago, actually, and I still get chills up my spine when I hear that. It's just. It still gets me.

Yeah. How'd you get your first break in this industry?

So I. So I kind of. So when I went to college, I went to Fitchburg State University, a kind of a small school in central Massachusetts that was right down the street from my house. And I. This point, although I knew I wanted to make movies, I also knew I didn't know a single person who'd ever even been to a movie set, let alone made a living there. And I studied graphic design because that's what I felt like I could get a job at. And I had some raw talent there. So I'll just go do that and kind of talk myself out of it. And God had other plans because he got me through my graphic design program in just over a year. And then I was bored and had to do gen eds. And I'm like, I don't want to do Gen ed's all the time. So I'll take one film class. Of course I took one film class, rolled one can of Reversal 8 millimeter film stock, projected it, and knew without question that is what God needs to be doing. And I had to do it. So finished a film degree as well and moved out to Los Angeles to do an unpaid internship at a company called Digital Domain, which had just won the Academy Award for Titanic. And when I got there, they were already. They had about 300 people at the time, and they were working seven days a week finishing a movie. Of course, my internship only required me to show up from, like, say, 9 to 6. Yeah, Monday through Friday. But once I was. I was like, I didn't want to go anywhere else. I was there. I was first one there in the morning, last one to leave there, you know, seven days a week. If they were there, I was there, basically is my rule. And I loved every minute of it. And within two weeks, I was hired as a technical assistant. And not because of any skills I had, but simply because on a Sunday afternoon, I was cleaning the kitchen because the cleaning crew doesn't come in on weekends, but the whole crew was eating lunch there. So it was a mess. And without being asked, I cleaned the kitchen. A producer caught me, and she asked me, what are you doing when you're done with your internship? And I said, I don't know. She said, you're hired.

That's amazing.

That's how I got my break, by cleaning a kitchen. My mom was very surprised by that story because I never cleaned her kitchen without being asked. But for work, I did it.

I think people can apply the message here, but I want you to say explicitly, what's the lesson you took from that experience?

So I used to say it was because I had good work ethic. I was a hard worker, which my dad, without question, and my mom really beat that into me growing up. Not literally. They just were both examples of extremely hard workers. So they set a standard of, you do your best, you work really hard until you're too tired and you fall asleep. I used to think it was a work ethic. That is why I decided to clean the kitchen. And I didn't just clean the kitchen, by the way. I didn't just clear the food. Like, I was literally scrubbing underneath the sink. Because the kitchen, the more I opened, the more I found how dirty this place was. Yeah, it wasn't because of my strong work ethic, although that probably started the process. It was literally because I am blessed enough to know what I want to do for a living, and God has walked with me in that journey. And I loved it. I've never loved cleaning a kitchen in my life, but I loved every minute of it there. Even though I was just cleaning a kitchen for people that were making a movie, I had as much joy doing that as any job I've ever done, even to this day. And it really isn't about worth it. It was about. I was blessed with this passion and this love for creating this thing that I just wanted to be around it, and they gave me the opportunity to do that. So cleaning the kitchen was not a selfless act. It was a pretty darn selfish one. I just loved being there, and I would do anything I could to stay there.

That's so good. You spent most of your career focused on this discipline of visual effects. Now you're spending more and more time, it seems, as an executive producer on films.

Yes.

And I think that's a black box to a lot of people. I don't think a lot of people know what an executive producer does. I'm not even sure I understand fully what an EP does. What does an EP do on a film?

Well, I'm not even sure what it does, so we can explore this together. I mean, as you all. As you know, when you watch different for every ep.

Right. Not all executive producers do the same thing. Right.

Exactly. And even producers, too. I'm really moving into producing, but it's kind of as you get started until you start having your own properties. And you'll be, you know, you'll start maybe as an associate producer or a co producer or an executive producer. So really, it's kind of steps towards producing. And I have a documentary that I produce with Chris Pratt that'll be coming out soon. That'll be my first official producing title. But really, the range of producers, no matter what the title is, there's a lot of different ways to produce it. What I am hoping to be and what I'm focusing on is what they kind of call the capital P producer, the creative producer, and that's the person that originated the project. So as an example, say you read a newspaper article about someone's life. This is really interesting. You reach out to the reporter, you get the rights to the newspaper article, and then you go hire a screenwriter and you get a script written. And then you take that script maybe to an actor, you get an actor to sign on, then you maybe get a director to sign on, and then you bring that package to a studio or streaming service and you say, let's go make this movie. And they say, yes. At that point, you are the. If it goes great, it's your fault. If it goes bad, it's your fault.

Yeah.

And you are in charge of the project and hiring all the crew and even, to some extent, the marketing. And it's kind of your baby.

Yeah. You're basically the founder of the project. Right?

That is a way more eloquent way to say it. Yes.

I don't know about that. It's more succinct maybe, but yeah, it's such an interesting world. And again, I think it's a black box for a lot of people. So thanks for shedding a little bit of light on it.

Sure.

Hey, we got connected a while ago because you were a fan of my first book called the Create.

I was a fan of your email list that you created from before even the book.

You know what's funny about this? I forgot this. I was just talking to somebody else the other day who's also a producer doing fairly big stuff in Hollywood. I could share his name after we get off air.

Fun.

Who has been on my email list since like day one. So I don't know what it was about. All you Hollywood people hopping onto my devotionals early on about cool. Like I'm all about it. Very, very cool.

You nailed the title call to Create. I mean, for creators, especially in Hollywood, like, you know, there isn't huge representation of Christian artists in Hollywood.

So what was it about the content, the book, like whatever that like really struck a chord with you? I'm not asking you to pat me on the back. I'm asking you to encourage our listeners.

Yeah, I mean, it kind of goes back to the fact that I did know at such a young age that God called me to this. So clearly. But when you're called to something this strongly, especially a competitive industry like this, you know, workaholism is a big thing. Making content that potentially you're not proud of or morally I wouldn't want to do and having to fight these battles in a way where the industry itself does not care about that at all. I needed some guidance to go, hey, is this workaholism or is this, you know, am I working with God or am I working for God? Am I working for myself? My own ego? There's a lot of questions. I mean, this job does require a lot of hours. It requires a lot of focus. Yeah, your brain never really gets to shut off. And especially as a young Christian at the time in Los Angeles and as I was kind of navigating these things, I was thirsty for some guidance in this. And honestly, your emails, as soon as I found it, I signed up and read everyone religiously and honestly, I bookmarked a lot and saved a lot. So I had like a whole folder of your past emails. Just because it was a. I think honestly we're like minded. Clearly you're called for what you're doing and it came through in your emails and it was just like, we are similar I basically built a community with you even though you didn't know who I was.

Yeah.

Which I appreciate.

And we're like minded because of the Wicked Witch of the West. Is it both this formative experience for both?

That's right.

By the way, you love called a great wait for the children's book. Do you have kids?

Oh, yes, I do. And I just saw Luca Fever posted on Instagram and I am dying to get a copy.

It's basically called to create in 387 words. Right. It's helping kids see, number one, God creates and works. But number two, he didn't finish creation on the sixth day. He passed the baton to us and said, go fill the earth. And it's funny, I was reading the second to last page to my kids last night. It says, create new businesses, movies, medicine and hope. Make laws or computers or a new telescope. But then it finishes off and says, you know, because when you show the Creator and you, you bring joy to the world and to your father too. And as I read that line last night, knowing this was coming up today, I was like, oh, Shondev Rowe is letting people see the Creator in him. He's creating new movies and hope. So I love that. I am curious though, like, what does it mean to you personally that God opens his grand narrative by creating?

I'm going to think that is such a wonderful question. Honestly, that's the realization I came to through the work I get to do. And honestly, by reading A Call to Create every week, I was able to shed any guilt or shame I had from the amount of work and passion I put into this because it is a reflection of God. I mean, God can't do what he did and not do it with passion. You don't create this beautiful world we get to wake up in every day or in this beautiful human body he created for us too. It's so clear. He loves us and loves this world and gave it to us as a gift. And it almost people say God is love, especially people that are more spiritual than religious. And I feel like, well, I think God is creation. He creates every single day. We. And then he created these species of humans that goes and create. Every single one of us creates. I don't care if you're an accountant, you're creating every day.

Yeah.

So there's just this communion I have with him in that sense. And I no longer feel shame or guilt that I like to work this hard because I love what I get to do.

That's awesome. It's a heck of an answer. You've worked on some really mainstream films, right? Transformers.

That was a fun one.

Yeah, I bet. Transformers. Do you have a great Transformer story?

I will say that all the stories about Michael Bay are true, but I like those kind of personalities. If you're being a jerk, for lack of a better word, that I can say on your podcast, because you're passionate about getting the best possible product out there, and he does do that, despite the rough around the edges approach, he does care most importantly about the audience experience and making the best film possible. And every single person I've worked with, even with their reputations that can lean more. Michael Bayish. I've always had a great experience because we're all at the same goal of just making the best possible movie we can. And it's really hard to do.

By the way, you've worked on mainstream films. Transformers, Patriots Day, Fences with Denzel.

Yes.

Not on a lot of films in the quote unquote Christian film industry.

No.

Is that intentional?

It's intentional. Not in the sense that I'm trying to avoid it because obviously I got to work with the Irwin brothers, most recently on American Underdog and with them on Unbreakable Boy with a director named John Gunn, who I am just a tremendous fan of. But early in my career it was intentional. I did do some faith based films kind of in the middle of my career. And honestly, the. It's hard to say this out being sounding like a jerk myself. Until I met the Irwin brothers, there wasn't other filmmakers I knew that made what I consider faith based films and put the movie in front of the message.

Oh yeah, I think you're being very kind. I could be more explicit and be a little more mean here. Christian films suck.

Yes. Thank you. That is what I wanted to say. And, and, and the thing about. Oh man. It's just because I obviously I don't want people that I with now to think that. I think if I'm working with you now, I don't think you suck. I think you're awesome. Caveat that. So, you know, for me, the thing about making a movie is a. Every single movie that is made is a miracle. It is so hard to get a movie made. It is hard to make the movie once it's being made. And it's hard to finish a movie. And for me, especially when I get to work on these mainstream films, these bigger films like Transformers, and I just finished a movie called Spirited for. With Ryan Reynolds and Will Ferrell for Apple. And the music was written by Justin Paul and Benj Pasek, you know, great showman guys like these. I'm working with the best in the world at they do. And any Hollywood movies that I go to in the world, and I've been, you know, all over the world doing this, I get to work with the best camera person in the world, the best lighter in the world, the best makeup person in the world. And when you're surrounded by Michael Jordan's it is exciting to get up in the morning. Gives you a challenge to do your best every single day. And that is an addictive feeling. And once you've tasted that, for me to work on a film that is being sold as a faith based film, I can't take that leap. Because as soon as you put your message in front of the quality of the film, you automatically, by default, you're compromising your vision. And when you do that, you are pandering to the audience. And in my opinion, and here's where I'll get in trouble, you are not bringing glory to the kingdom by not doing your level best.

Yeah, I think I would agree with that. It's this issue of. And by the way, I think this applies to people making films and people making widgets in a tech startup. Any time we prioritize preaching over excellence, we do a disservice to the message we care about preaching. I was just talking to somebody the other day who hired a bunch of people in his business from his church and they were the worst employees in the company. Right. And what did that do to the message that those kids in this business were preaching? It lost all of its credibility. Paul called us to work alongside outsiders to win the respect. How do we win the respect of outsiders? By doing great work. Now at some point we got to share the gospel explicitly, but we got to do great work.

Yes.

In order to win the respect and have the opportunity to share the gospel.

Right, exactly. And by the way, within the industry as well. Like, I don't meet someone on set for the first time and say, hey, by the way, I'm a Christian. You want to talk about Jesus?

Yeah.

You know, they get to know me over the course of a movie or of course of many movies, and when they find out I'm a Christian, they're not surprised. And they want to talk and they want to have questions. And I've had amazingly deep conversations with some of the biggest people in Hollywood sitting on set, answering questions about the Lord, talking about my faith journey, talking about their faith journey. You know, people that I won't name because it's up to them to, you know, come out and publicly talk about their faith. But, you know, there are more Christians in Hollywood than anyone and where they're there to make something great and to be a part of it is huge. And, you know, being able to do work at the level I attempt to do it at every day. When people do find out I'm a Christian, the conversation doors flood open.

You said something in passing there I think is really significant. When these people find out you're a Christian, they're often not surprised. I think that's a huge compliment. Why do you think they're not surprised? What is it that they're like, oh, yeah, no, that makes sense given X, Y and Z.

So this is like I've said a few times now on this one interview, it's really hard to make a movie, but I have so much joy in my heart for what I get to do. The hardest day I've ever had on a movie set has still been one of the happiest days of my life. And there's people that have been doing it for as long, if not longer than I have. And on hard days, they let you feel that they're having a hard day. I've never done that. Not because I'm faking it, by the way. I have so much joy that I get to do this when there's a big problem to solve and there's 500 people on set waiting for me to say something so they can go back to work. Man, the stress is so high, but the joy I get from being able to make something with these amazingly talented artists, and we do it together, and it's so collaborative. I've never had a day on set that even the most difficult where I go home wishing I did something else. And that is God given without question. And I think that is why, like my positivity, I am as happy on day one of a shoot as I am on 120 of the shoot. And that is a very rare thing. Most people cannot maintain that level of energy. And honestly, I couldn't doing anything else in my life, I couldn't do that.

But yeah, joy will preach.

Yes.

Yeah. Especially in today's day and age. Joy will preach.

Exactly.

You want people to know you're Jesus follower. At some point you got to say it explicitly. But you can also say it with excellence and working with joy. Yeah. Part of my problem. I've written a lot about this before. My audience is probably sick of me talking about it. But part of my Problem with this space of quote, unquote, Christian films, and I think this applies again outside of the film industry, is just rooted in this belief that everything we do as Christians has to be justified by some evangelistic end. Right. When all throughout Scripture we see God commending creative work in and of itself. I think this is what you were alluding to when you're talking about Genesis 1. God created for the pure joy of creating.

Right, Exactly.

Have you read Culture Making by Andy Crouch?

I have not, but I'm writing it down.

It's a great book. I was rereading a section of it the other day. He was commenting on the fact that Isaiah 60 and Revelation 21 and 22 show that there is culture in the New Jerusalem. Right. So when heaven comes to earth, there are cultural goods there. And he says this. I love this quote. He said, quote, knowing that the New Jerusalem will be furnished with the best of every culture frees us from having to give a religious or evangelistic explanation for everything we do. We are free to simply make the best we can of the world in concert with our forebears and our neighbors. End quote. I just love that. I think that's spot on. If God's going to redeem culture as we see in Isaiah 60, we're free to just go out and try to make what Isaiah and John called the glory of the nations. Just make the best movie you can make. Just make the best business you can make. And if you earn a chance to share the gospel, praise the Lord, take it, run with it, look for opportunities to share the gospel. But we don't have to have that religious justification. We could just create for the pure joy of doing it.

I love that. Yeah. And honestly, being in Hollywood too, when Christians find out I'm in Hollywood, I get a much more negative reaction than I do from people in Hollywood finding out I'm a Christian.

That's interesting.

Yes.

Why do you think that is?

I do think that modern Christians, by a percentage bigger than I'd like it to be. You know, we haven't learned the log in our eye when there's a splinter in someone else's and there's a lot of judgment and not a lot of love, especially when it comes to big things like Hollywood that you're not necessarily directly involved with or know directly people. It's just. It's an easy enemy to set up and to blanket statement that anything Hollywood does is evil from the devil and it becomes this kind of fun place to attack.

Yeah.

The most common question I get When a Christian finds out I'm working Hollywood is. How do you.

Yeah.

How are you able to rectify that with your faith?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I'm.

How can I not?

Yeah.

I'm like, this is my retort.

I know I'm using that. Actually, that's what I'm going to say from now on because I usually am a little speechless depending on who the person is. And then realize I don't even want to waste my breath answering the question because I'll never satisfy it to their liking.

Anyway, I'm going to go down a rabbit trail. Hopefully this will be helpful to our audience. I was given a keynote at this event a couple of weeks ago about the need for us to re embrace the call to create. Because I think it's going to be through films that this generation of nuns is going to see God. Right. Seekers aren't walking into a church anymore to learn about God for the first time. So where are they going to have the seed of the kingdom planted in their hearts? It's going to be through film and art and culture and businesses and whatever. And it was interesting. Somebody asked me afterwards, it was a seemingly disconnected question. They said, why do you think so many young people are leaving the church? Right? And I was like, yeah, it's an interesting question. You know, I think we love to blame liberals for kids leaving the church. I think we love blaming Hollywood, I think we love blaming culture. But I think we have to blame ourselves because we have boiled down the gospel to. The gospel is Jesus came to save me from my sins. So once you get to the end of that aisle and give your life to Christ, we didn't give these kids anything to do. And the thing to do is to go create culture and go create disciples. We didn't give these kids a mission. So of course they're walking away because they're bored. Right. So anyways, I digress.

No, you're totally right. I cannot agree more.

Hey, so you did executive produce this faith forward film, American Underdog Story. Kurt Warner, who I hate because I'm a Tampa Bay Buccaneers fan.

Well, you get that fun now, so it's okay.

But this film actually did pretty well critically. It's a very rare faith based film to do so. Why do you think critics took to the film?

Because it's a great movie flat out. That's why. Honestly, it has to be a great movie to get positive reaction from the mostly liberal critics right away. Faith forward things, you're walking in, they're not like walking in as A blank slate. A critic walks into a faith forward film begrudgingly excited to tear it apart. They're walking in with such a negative connotation that to get past that and then actually have them in some cases actually praise the film is a huge feat. I mean, if this was not a famous film at all, I would actually even add 10 to 20 points on the Rotten Tomatoes scale, which is already still high. But flat out, it's a great movie. It moved people in the right way. It's an amazing story. Zach and Anna did an amazing job together and it is very relatable. Despite the fact that it's about an NFL superstar, the journey he took to get there is one most of us can relate to. And I think that's what John and Andy Irwin, the directors, just a great job of putting on the screen for us.

It's good you spent years honing this craft. 50 ish films. What are the keys to mastery in your field that are relevant obviously to your vocation, but likely others?

The biggest thing, I think that has been my success. And what I look for, honestly when I'm hiring people as well and people I like working with is their ability to say, I don't know, there is so much ego wrapped up in this business. And a lot of that is self protective. Because to get to be a cinematographer, for example, who's in charge of the look of the film, to get to that level on a major Hollywood motion picture took 15 years. It's not like it happens overnight. You don't decide to be a cameraman and suddenly you get to be on a movie set like it takes decades to get there. So every person you're meeting is a master of their craft when you meet them on set. And the difference between the people and so already they're great, they're among the best in the world. What they do just to get there. But what makes them truly great is their ability when we're all working together to make this movie, to say, I don't know. And the ones that can't, their career sputters out pretty quickly, even if they have a couple of shoe highlights because again, they're talented and they might have a couple of great highlights, but eventually people want to stop working with them because they don't have the ability to let their ego go and say, I don't know, I need help.

Yeah, that's a great. It's the theme. We should call this the call to humility. Because that's what it takes to get masterfully good at what you do. Humility. That's it. It's pretty simple. It's pretty straightforward. But I do think there are a lot of listeners who beg. But, Sean, like, I'm trying to get the gig. I can't say that I don't know these things.

Right.

Like, what would you say to that person?

Not true. So obviously, when you're starting your career, I mean, is that what you want me to answer this for someone starting in the business?

Yeah, sure.

So when you're starting out, like, you need to try to do everything, and I know you don't know how to do anything. So if you don't say I don't know at least twice in the interview, I'm not hiring you. There's no. There's no scenario where you do know. And I went through four years of film school, so I know that I didn't know anything when I left. I mean, I learned on the job, and that's really what happens. So what I'm looking for, especially when you're coming in, is that passion to clean the kitchen like I did is really what I'm looking for. And industry like this, it's so competitive. You owe us three years before we take you seriously.

Yeah.

You make it past the first three years, guess what? You have a career. You're going to make great money and you're going to do awesome. But those three years you owe us, making almost no money, working ridiculous hours, and doing a job you probably don't like that much. But if you get through that, that is kind of the gap we're all looking for, and it's kind of subconscious. We don't consciously, as an industry, go, hey, give me those three years, and you're in. But that's what it takes. And the people that quit in two years, like, I couldn't make it. Well, you needed another year, and then you were in, you know?

Yeah. It's looking for the stuff that you can't teach, which is usually primarily grit.

Grit is a big one without question. And really, it's hard for me to say. I mean, it is passion, though, too. Like, you need the grit to be able to handle the obstacles that come in your way. But it's passion as much there's a joy in a competitive industry because you have so many candidates go looking for a single position. But I would much rather take the person who's just like, again, I'll clean the kitchen for you, but I've never held a camera versus the guy who's like, here's my Student reel. It's amazing. I expect to hold a camera tomorrow on set like that person. I don't want anywhere near me. Like, go make your own movies. Good luck with you. Maybe I'll see you in 10 years. Maybe I won't. Probably not. Yeah, let me get the passion guy.

You live in this world that's characterized by placing really big financial bets on very limited information.

Yes.

You have no clue which films are going to succeed and fail. How do you approach decision making in that type of environment?

There's really not a great answer for that because we really. I mean, look right now, especially even the movies that are going to go to theaters, it ends up being a face on a thumbnail on Netflix at some point. And that's really what we look for. I mean, we need an actor that you're going to recognize that you're going to see a face on a thumbnail. You know, scroll by as you're searching Netflix and click on it. So it's really changed from, like back in the 50s, it was all about the movie star. Then we went away in the 70s and had a lot of people like, Robert De Niro was a star before he was a star and things like that. And then the 80s and 90s came back and the star became a bigger thing again. And now it's the most important thing because you need that thumbnail. You have, what, a half a second as it scrolls by to catch someone's attention. And actors are the best way to do that right now. So a lot of it's based on that. And then for, you know, movies that are smaller, like a documentary. I just finished that. You know, there's a person that. She's done. She's accomplished some things, but overall, she's not really that well known yet. You know, we're not going to have that ability, so we have to use other means. And that's, you know, getting people that are passionate about her story and the message behind her story so that we can get the funding and go make a movie that is mainstream and hopefully gets enough buzz from film festivals and things that then we get a thumbnail that people recognize.

Did you ever read the book? I'm thinking of two books right now that I think are helpful, maybe to you, but definitely to our listeners who want to learn how to make better bets professionally. Did you read Thinking in Bets by Annie Duke?

Thinking in Bets? No, I didn't.

It's really good. And also blockbusters.

I love blockbusters.

It was a great book, right?

It was, yeah.

So this is a book. Well, you tell them what this book is about.

So it's really telling the story. If I'm not mistaken, it's the story of like, Star wars and Jaws and what really began the blockbuster trend. Because before these early movies, a movie making a billion dollars, which is what they did inflation wise, if we do, or the cost adjustment, there was really not movies that did that. There was movies that would stay in theaters for a few weeks and then they'd go to, you know, TV movies like ABC movie of the week things. There really wasn't this kind of long running, billion dollar box office hit until Jaws and the Star wars of the world came out and the history of it is told. Well, is that the book you're talking about?

Am I saying that I don't think it is?

Maybe I'm.

But I just looked up your book and it does have the same title. So the book I'm talking about is called Blockbusters, Hit Making, Risk Taking and the Big Business of Entertainment.

Oh, yes. This is not the one I was thinking about.

Yeah. And it was written by this Harvard business professor named Anita Elbersi. It was really brilliant. It was just talking about, like, how creative enterprises make bets on content and how they think about it. But it's so good. It transcends just content. Like, it's a great business book in general, as is Thinking in Bets by Annie Duke. Well, hey, this is a good segue because I was going to ask you next, which books do you personally recommend or gift to others most frequently? Sean.

So without question, the book I have gifted the most, and I'm. We're looking. We're going on close to 30 copies at this point is the Total Money Makeover by Dave Ramsey. Yeah, you, I don't believe or I wasn't able to do it. You can pursue a creative career or creative venture with debt hanging around your neck. And you need to be debt free so that you give yourself the freedom and flexibility to make choices based on your creative taste and not what you need to pay rent that month. So that one I cannot recommend enough. That's huge.

That's good.

My other one that I like a lot I heard recently, actually is the ruthless elimination of hurry.

Yeah. So good.

Which, you know, a movie set is, they kind of say hurry up and wait, so you got to hurry up to get ready. And then you're waiting around for something to happen, and then they call you and you got to hurry up again. For me, my whole life became hurry up and wait. And I, you Know, that's where I start to, you know, my Bible time gets cut down to a couple minutes a day versus maybe the 20 minutes day I'm hoping for. So for me, it was a great reset to kind of refocus spiritually, creatively, mentally, everything.

Yeah. Such a good book. It's one of my all time favorites.

And then I can't remember the author and I should have looked it up. Have you read Roaring Lambs?

I have not, but you're not the first person to recommend this to me.

So Roaring Lambs I read right before I discovered Called to Create. And I think there might have been something in that book that referred me to something that referred me to Call to create.

Huh.

But it was exceptional book. Talking about Christians and creativity and like, one of the biggest comments he makes. The book that's stuck with me since then is that, you know, if you wanted to go see the best art in the world 200 years ago, do you know where you had to go? Where? Church.

Yeah.

The best art in the world was in churches 20 years ago. And we've kind of surrendered that.

Yeah.

In a significant way. Not just obviously with having art churches, because you don't need movie theaters and churches, but culturally, we've kind of surrendered that. Oh, we're Christian. We don't have to worry about that anymore.

Yeah. Not only were Christians creating the best art in the world 200ish years ago, we were also creating the greatest businesses. See the Guinness Brewing Company. Right. We were also creating the best legislation. See William Wilberforce abolishing the slave trade. We were creating hospitals and social reform. Right. And man, do we need to rediscover this call to create culture as a means of advancing the kingdom today. Sean, who do you want to hear on this podcast talking about how their faith shapes their work in the world?

Oh, that's such a good question. And you asked me I should have prep for this and I didn't. It'd be a long one. But I'd love you to meet Denzel Washington and get your listeners to meet him. He is a man of extraordinary faith and one of my favorite directors I've ever worked with. I worked him as a director on fences and as an actor on several films. And his level of excellence is second to none. And his faith, especially when you get to know him, you see what a huge part it brings into his life and how important it is to him. And it was extremely inspirational to work with him and get to hear his story on that.

So you want to know A secret.

What's that?

Denzel is number one on my list of who I want in this podcast.

That is a good goal, man.

And you mentioned another one who's very close to the top on my list that not a lot of people know. Justin Paul.

Oh, yeah, dude. He's incredible.

For those who don't know, Justin wrote Greatest Showman. Dear Evan Hansen, Spirited.

Coming out, Thanksgiving, 2022.

I love it. Dear Evan Hansen, do you know this show?

I love Dear Evan Hansen, the song.

You will be found. He's basically preaching Revelation 21, all is new, all is new he's filling up the empty and all I can see all is new, all is new he's talking. It's like, straight from Revelation 21:5. And this stuff, like, makes it way subtly in his work, but in such a perfect, beautiful way. I just think he's brilliant. I think he's a genius.

I agreed. Showman, for me, was a kind of one of those turning points in my life. Honestly. I decided to sell my company after seeing Greatest Showman. So he made some impact. Me.

Wait, what? Why?

That's a longer story. So I guess for me it was one of the. Out of all the movies I looked at recently, at that point, I read the script, I had not even heard the music yet, and I was like, I need to do this movie. I absolutely need to do this movie. But because of my commitments, my company, I couldn't do it. And then the movie came out and I got to see it with music, and I was so blown away by a. The storyline. I love the entrepreneur story being told and Barnum and all his journey, but the music and the cultural impact it made. And from the beginning, I saw Opening Night and just. I felt like, this is going to rock the world. And. Yeah, and it's a surprise. Of course. I come out the next day and it made, like, almost no money at the box office. I'm like, what the heck? How is this happening? So then it stayed almost in the top five for, I think, the next six months because finally everyone went to see it. But it was such a cultural movement and the songs were. I mean, the story was good. Honestly, I think it could have been a great movie without music. And then with music, the emotional reaction you get to these new ideas. Like, I could see a liberal progressive watching this movie going, I need to go start a business and grow it and hire people. Like, it just. It's so empowering. And honestly, a very conservative, Christian kind of point of view, in my opinion, of, like, you have to, you know, be with your family and go grow a business and give other people work and. And look for people that maybe aren't getting chances other places and lift them up. And it was just so powerful. And I'm like, it just is everything I want to be doing in this world. Honestly.

That's so good. I love the film. And I was thinking the other day, it's become such a cultural phenomenon. Like the Tampa theater in downtown Tampa. It's just like gorgeous old historic theater. They do, like, greatest showman showings and parties, like, I don't know, once every other month. It's something absurd. It's gonna be the next Rocky Horror picture film, right? Where, like, people get dressed up, they come to the theaters.

I love that.

And it's just this fun, joyful film. Oh, man.

So joyful. I love it. So wonderful.

All right, Sean, you're talking to an audience of Christ. Followers are doing a lot of different things vocationally. We got some people in Hollywood listening. We also got a lot of entrepreneurs and marketers and parents and lawyers and whomever. What they share is, number one, a commitment to Jesus, and number two, a commitment to doing great work for his glory. What's one thing you want to leave them with before we sign off?

So this is for people that are wavering about what they should do, and especially parents that have children that are kind of venturing into the creative world. Don't worry about a backup plan. If they are as passionate, if they are truly passionate about it and they have no second interest that they could be happy doing, don't force them into a business degree. Let them fly. I promise you, God called them to that because you can't do it any other way. And they will make it.

Dang, that's a word to end on. Hey, Sean, man, I want to commend you for the exceptional work that you do, for creating just great films and giving God glory in the process. And just thank you for the reminder that all of us are called to create. We are not creation optional beings. As Jen Wilkins says, we are all part of this call to create. Thanks for joining us, man.

Hey, man, thanks for all you do. As you know, I wouldn't be here without you, so I appreciate it. Thanks, man.

Man, that was fun. Thanks for tuning in, you guys. If you loved the episode, please go rate the call to mastery wherever you listen to your podcasts. Thanks again for tuning in. I'll see you next.