Shannon Doss (Social Worker)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back guarantee on this book. I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me, Right. I know this is a very different biography is what is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because, listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, et cetera, et cetera, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work. But in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right? So that's the first reason this is a risk and I'm gonna de risk this book for you. Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended. End quote. But here's the thing. In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page. And that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9 by filling out that form. You'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on 5merechristians.com and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5merechristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey, friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as surgeons, personal trainers, and judges. That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to Shannon Doss. She's a social worker and licensed mental health therapist at California Online Public Schools. But today she just speaking for herself personally. Personally. And her views are of course, in no way reflective of her employer. Shannon and I recently sat down for a terrific conversation about how to ensure that you are not stealing from your employer in discrediting your witness when you're working from home. We talked about how Shannon's repentance about gossip at work led to some pretty remarkable changes in her workplace culture. And we talked about why you should consider following your pain rather than your passions as you make career decisions. I loved this conversation. I'm confident you will too. Please enjoy this conversation with my new friend, Shannon Doss. Hey, Shannon Doss. Welcome to the Mere Christians podcast.

Thanks for having me.

I'm excited you're here. Hey, I love asking longtime listeners, first time callers this question, any favorite episodes of the podcast that you think our listeners need to go back and find?

I feel like I'm a little biased, but I would have to say Candace Lavert's podcast because she's the one who introduced me to the podcast. She is an IT operations manager and she was talking a lot about how she brings the gospel even past the lunchtime conversation into just making organization, sometimes out of chaos and fun fact before, I had no idea who your podcast was or anything like that before that episode. So I would definitely say that would be my favorite because it brought me into the folder.

Christian, I love it. Candace is great. She's been a member of our Mere Christians community for years and that's a terrific episode to go listen to. All right, so Shannon, in the introduction I introduced you as a social worker, but let's be honest, right? Social workers do a lot of different social work, right? That could mean a bunch of different things. So what did you spend your time doing Monday through Friday? Take our listeners inside your world.

Ah, so every day is an adventure. So they never look the same. Being that I am a school social worker, it's a lot different than maybe a typical county social worker that most people think of and then on top of that add layers of complexity because I'm, I go, I work at an online school. So even more so different than the typical. So my Monday through Friday look, my main roles are mental health and crisis intervention for our students. Mental health and crisis intervention. So a lot of our students that are struggling with maybe suicidal Thoughts? Usually the first point of contact to get them support. I also do counseling, so therapeutic interventions for some of our students, community resources, and advocacy for our homeless and foster families. I also am in program development, so I'm developing or helping to develop social, emotional learning to support those proactive skills for our students. I also supervise four social work interns to help me with the work because I'm the only social worker for our 7,500 kids. So I get help from our interns, and then I'm beyond that. Just a lot of meetings. Lots of meetings.

Hold on a second. You're the only full time social worker? So this is California online public schools. Correct. So 7,500 kids.

You're the only social worker that I am.

That's wild.

Yes. So it's been a ride.

It's.

I love it. But I had to bring on some help because of that.

Yeah, no joke. That's really intense. Hey, so you mentioned foster care. If I'm remembering this correctly from our pre interview that we did back last year, you yourself spent time in the foster care system as a kid, is that right?

So I was in foster care from the ages of. Well, on my 16th birthday, actually, that is when I had my first court date. So 16th birthday until I was 18 and I went to college and kind of exited the system. So. Yeah. But before that, I was with family from 14 to 16. So kind of like kinship foster, but not officially until when I was in 16. That's when I entered into the system.

Was that part of the motivation for doing the work you're doing now?

Oh, yes, of course. I definitely feel that kind of launched me into the helping profession that I'm in today.

Was there a moment we were like, all right, I came from this painful situation, and I know I want to go back and work in the system that I came from. Was that moment. Was it many moments over time? Talk about that.

Definitely many moments over time. When we first entered. Sorry. I say we because I have a twin sister. So we did this together. But when we first entered into foster care at 16, we had a social worker, county social worker, and she wasn't a good social worker because we seemed pretty well adjusted as teenagers. We didn't get a lot of support. We was like, okay, cool, you're great. And. And so that kind of prompted me to say, okay, there's a way to right that wrong type of thing. But when we were in school, our high school, we had very supportive adults at our school. So we had a teacher who now he Became my goddad, and he walked me down the aisle. When I got married, we had a counselor that really supported us. And so I wanted to be in schools, to be that for some students. And then not having a good social worker, I felt like, okay, I can do social work. Then when I found out I can do it in schools, I'm like, perfect. That is my career.

I love it. I love it so much. It reminds me of Romans 8, 28, 29. God promises to work all things for the good of those who love him. Very important last part of that. And it feels like that's part of your story, right? You know, you're looking at, okay, you, you come from this hard thing, being in the foster care system, but God is redeeming it to equip you with empathy for doing the work you're doing today. Do you see a correlation there? Do you believe that your work at social work today is part of the good that you can see that came from your time in the foster care system?

Yes, I sure hope so, that I'm doing the good, but yeah, for sure. I think, like you said the word empathy, I think what I've been through has really given me the empathy and compassion for students. It might surprise you, but not all adults that work in schools have that. And so I bring, I think, a special level of compassion for some of our most vulnerable kids, that they really need it, and I think that helps. I forget what the research says, but there's research out there that says having supportive adults at school, it really does impact student academic achievement. And so I pray that I'm a part of that. But based on what the Lord has done for me, for sure.

I was reading this story a couple of months ago. It's a wild, dramatic story about this woman who lived in the 1700s in Great Britain. Her name is Josephine Butler. And when her daughter was six years old, Josephine was standing on the bottom floor of this, it had to be a two, three story place in Britain. And watched her six year old daughter fall from the banister and die. She couldn't help her watch her kid die right in front of her eyes. Obviously enters into this time of deep and dark depression. But the thing God used to bring her out of it was this question of who is in more pain than I am and how might I serve them through my work. And so she goes out and she works for the rights of the poor. She's basically a political activist for the rights of the poor all through Great Britain. And what I love about the story Is she allowed God to transform her pain into empathy. Right. To transform her heartbreak into this heart that was radically transformed and prepared to serve others. And I don't know, I think that's what people like you are doing. Right. It's a really beautiful way, I think, to think about vocational discernment, because so much of the conversation around calling tends to focus on. Follow your passions. You followed your pain, right?

Yeah, that's exactly it. Wow. I've never heard that story, actually. So I'm gonna have to look her up, because that does sound a lot like. Well, given the facts are not the same, but the same how the Lord worked in her pain to definitely help her to help others.

Yeah, you gotta read that story. It's a great story. Josephine Butler. All right, so it's clear to me how your faith is shaping what you're doing professionally. Let's talk about how. Achieving how you do what you do professionally. And when I asked you that question a few months ago, I loved the story you shared. It was this really great case study about gossip at work. And this is something that I know a lot of our listeners can resonate with and have experienced at work. Can you share the story with our listeners about the gossip you saw in that kind of virtual group chat?

Yes. So just a little backstory. We. Because we're. We're online, so we try to form community and in ways that may be a little not conventional because we can't go to the break room. So we do have different chats where co workers kind of form group chats based on, like, affinity groups or something. And so there was an affinity group that I'm still part of for our African American staff at our school. It's optional, so you don't have to join if you don't want to. So a few of us have joined. And I want to say, last year, being a part of that group, it became a space to venture and oftentimes sometimes unproductive.

And it's a fine line between gossip and venting.

Yes, for sure. And it crossed that line a lot of times. And there were times, completely honest, that I was a part of that. Like, I was frustrated, too. And so I'm like, yeah. And so we're all just kind of riling each other up. And I got convicted, and I was like, Shannon, like the Lord, I don't know what. What happened, but I was convicted. And I was like, this is not honoring to God. And so I actually went forth and told everyone in the group how I would need to take a step back from the group and I told them why. I said I felt convicted. I was very honest about the Lord doing that convicting and that I even I think I might have quoted Ephesians 4:29, Letting all our speech be fitting to the occasion and let it build up and how the speech was not building up. And. And so I took a step back and a few people actually messaged me after privately and were very, I guess surprised, but also happy because they also felt the weight of the conversations, did not they. They weren't necessarily Christians, so they wouldn't say honor God, but they felt like it was not just a good use of our time ethically for the company. And so we did actually reform the group chat. We changed the name of it and everything. And now it's where we share funny memes and just kind of lighthearted stuff, events that are going on in our lives and different ways to build each other up.

Actually, man, I love this so much. We talk so much on this podcast about using work to, you know, renew entire industries or entire workplace cultures. Like. But this is such a beautiful micro example of that of allowing the Holy Spirit to convict and transform one small corner of one workplace in such a beautiful way. But it sounds like your simple act of obedience and repenting of that sin publicly has fairly significantly changed the workplace culture, at least with regards to this one instance of gossip, right?

Yeah, I would say so. I would say that at least I don't hear it anymore now. There might be another chat I'm not a part of, but I do think that at least this space, it has become more positive. And honestly, this school year has felt more light and I felt more refreshed. And I feel like others have probably felt the same because we're not engaging in workplace gossip.

What do you think were the prerequisites for hearing that conviction from the Holy Spirit about that sin? Because all of us are sinning every day at work. Not everybody is cognizant of that sin. Here's the conviction of that sin, much less has the courage to obey Scripture's command to repent of it. So what do you think were the preconditions that made space for you to hear the conviction of the Holy Spirit with regards to this situation, I would.

Definitely say, well, I think David Mathis refers to as habits of grace. So being really intentional about my time in the Word. And I wasn't like studying gossip or anything, but just my heart is primed towards conviction because I'm allowing, I'm not quenching the Holy Spirit. I'm allowing him to work because I'm reading and my church is a great place to go and get fed and praying and fellowshipping with other believers. And so I think really engaging the things that make my heart just open to conviction and to the grace of the Lord, I think really kind of primed me to. To be convicted because I would prefer to, you know, be able to just go through life and feel good. But wouldn't we all? The Lord is like, no, we got some work to do to be more like Christ. So, yeah.

Oh, man. So it's so good. And I love how simple that answer is, but I do think that's the answer. It's just time in the word time in Christian community time. I. I would argue time sitting under teaching of the Word. That's not meant to make you feel better about yourself, but meant to convict you. Like, a couple years ago, I had a friend of mine visit our local church, and afterwards I asked him, like, what he thought. He's like, man, I don't like the way I feel leaving here. I'm like, yeah, that's the point. Right? Like, that's.

That should be the point.

Like, I'm so sick and tired of preachers who treat Sunday morning as a pep rally to make us good. Like, we are supposed to feel convicted and broken so that we can better appreciate the mercy and grace we've been shown by God through Jesus Christ.

Amen for sure. We don't need another motivational speech. We get. Get enough of that in the world.

That's exactly right. That's exactly right. So I. I love the simplicity of the answer. I'm curious, after you came forth, repented of this to your co workers, did it open up any spiritual conversations with believers or non believers on your team? Did anybody ask, like, hey, tell me more about this? Like, what. Why did you do this? You could have just, you know, gone with the flow. Like, talk about that a little bit.

I would say they probably weren't, at least the ones that I talked to afterwards, because there were a few individuals that messaged me. I don't know their spiritual condition as far as whether they're saved or not. But it did open the door for those conversations where I could be more personal about why I was publicly repenting. Because one young lady did message me and was kind of like, well, you didn't have to do that. Like, why did. Why did you go forth in front of everybody? It's very public. I think there's like 30 of us in the chat. And I'm like, because I sinned in front of everybody, so I need to come forth and repent in front of everybody. She didn't understand, but she respected it. She was like, that's, you know, that's real. She used the word tough. That's real tough. And I'm like, yeah.

It is real tough. It's so rare. Like, how many times do we see leaders in organizations repenting in a public forum like that?

Not much. And the other thing, when you said leaders, it did remind me that like I, I have such a set apart role that although I'm, I'm not in a leadership position, I am sort of leading the way. We don't have other mental health professionals. And so to a lot of my.

You're the de facto leader of the mental health department.

Yes, and the one that's just me. And so to many of my co workers, I am a leader in sense because they even said that. And I'm like, oh. Because they mentioned like what you said, not a lot of leaders apologize for things. And I'm like, I don't even see myself as a leader. But yeah, so for sure it's not common in the workplace.

Yeah, it's good. It's really good. When you look back, how long have you been at the California online public schools?

Ooh, almost three years. So almost three years.

Would you point to this as the most glaring example of how you've worked distinctly because of your apprenticeship to Jesus Christ?

Yes, for sure. This probably was the most. Because it wasn't the most recent, but definitely the most blatant, like, okay, God, this is for you. Because sometimes I just come in and do my work. But this I think really solidified like you are here as a light for Christ, not and to do your work, but do that in a way that glorifies him.

That's exactly right. That's exactly right. What else can you point to over your three years there? That I go, man, that decision, that situation, the way I handled that could really only be fully explained because of my faith in Christ.

I would say more simply some of the day to day stuff such as just coming in because working online you can take advantage of the time very much so.

Yes, talk about this, come on.

So you could definitely go get your nails done. There's time. I've heard of people doing it. And so I use my time to do the work that I was hired to do. Now I take breaks, I get up because sitting all day is very hard. So I'll get up, I have a sit to stand desk, I get on my treadmill and I'm doing notes while I'm on the treadmill. But I'm intentional about making sure that I make the most of my time. Now when there's downtime and a boss is like, yeah, you know, they're encouraging me to go, you know, go for a walk or something, I'll do that. But for the most part, I try to, to do what I was hired to do because that is what the Lord calls me to do. And it's not easy because I'm very much tempted to go binge, watch that TV show and do all the things that, you know, the laundry that's sitting over there, the corner. But I do think that the Lord calls me to a higher standard when it comes to the way in which I do my work.

It's really good. It reminds me of Titus 2, 9, 10. Paul is talking to slaves and masters and you. Anytime we come across that language in scripture, I hesitate to share it. But it's scripture. Right. I think we could think about this as a rhetorical amplifier, as Tim Keller has, has shared in some commentaries. But he's talking, let's, you know, in our modern context, let's put it as employee employer, for the sake of oversimplifying things for time. He says, hey, slaves, do not steal from your masters to show them that they can be fully trusted so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive. Right. Like when we steal from our employers. And I would argue this is very common today with people who are working remotely and stealing time, we are doing it to the detriment of the gospel. And those chances that we do have, those rare chances that we do have to explicitly proclaim the gospel to our co workers, that's going to fall on deaf ears if our employers have any reason to suspect that we are stealing from them as we are working from home. Amen.

Amen. And I must, I must say that this has not, although I've been saved for many years and I've only been here three, that wasn't always the mentality I had to grow into that we're sanctifying.

Yeah.

Yes. As. Because there were times where I would take advantage of the time. And so I don't want the listeners to think, oh, she's just so great. It's the Lord and he's working. So. Yeah.

Where's the line though? So talk really practically to our listeners who are in your situation. They're working from Home. And when you're working from home, you do have more flexibility than you do when you're going to an office. So what's the line between flexibility and stealing? Like, how do you discern, you know, how long to take a lunch break, when to do your workouts? Like, how. Have you, have you thought about this a lot, Shannon?

Yeah, I try to. Well, I would say to everyone, much prayer, because every situation could look different. But I've, for one, I definitely am very open with my supervisor. And so that helps because then there is no conviction about, like, oh, am I, am I not? Like, I'm not sure because I do have two little ones that I have to pick up from school and take, take to school. And usually those are during work hours. And so they're like, oh, no, go for it. Just put it on your calendar. And then there are times where I've asked, like, hey, I need to take a few hours to do an errand. And they're like, just flex your time. So they're okay with it as long as I do it. Fill in the time somewhere else. So I would say, and this might be scary to a lot of people, but if you feel like you cannot be open with your supervisor and ask, then it's probably not something you should be doing on work time. And then I would also say you kind of know your schedule. And so in the mornings, there's typically everyone's checking their emails. That's pretty much the work culture. And so in the mornings, I check in my emails. If there's not a lot going on, then I might do my little workout. But I keep my computer nearby because that's priority. And so there are times where I might do other things, but my supervisor is usually aware of it. And I keep work right there just in case. But I think it teeters into that line of taking advantage or stealing time. When we're maybe a day, we're like the whole day, we're just not doing any work. When you're not productive at work at all, when you are, I would say the Holy Spirit pretty is pretty clear if you feel that little, maybe not. It's probably the Holy Spirit telling you that's not, that's not what you need to be doing.

That's right. Yeah. I think a good rule of thumb is like, listen, imagine your boss is there physically with you. Would you be comfortable doing what you're doing? Right? Like, that's how we should be treating this. And again, for the sake of the gospel, right? Paul makes this super, super Clear and Titus and other passages. Hey Shannon, that's super practical, super helpful. I want to touch on something else you mentioned in our pre interview way back last year. You mentioned that there were some changes going on in your organization at the time. I don't know if this is still true, but it was six months ago. They were opening up some career advancement opportunities. But you mentioned that you were going after those opportunities in a very different way, by God's grace than some of your non Christian co workers. I'm curious what you've learned about what it looks like to pursue career advancement in a distinctly Christlike way.

Yeah. So in all, full transparency. I don't remember what I said, so I'm just gonna in that pre interview. But I think I do know that there has been a lot of shifts since that time in our organization. I know one of the things that I there wasn't necessarily a position for me open because there's just one of me. But there anytime there's like a huge shift in organization, there's sometimes room for new change. We were opening a lot of other different roles. And so I was like, okay, this might be. I do have a passion to move up in advance. And that took a lot to even say publicly because I felt like that's not the Christian thing, like you just should be satisfied. But I do believe that the Lord is honored when we want to advance for good purpose. I would love to do program development and really support our students on a larger scale. And so that's a passion. But with that, I felt like there were a lot of co workers that I've talked to that maybe were grabbing opportunities in ways that were maybe unethical or just kind of stepping over each other to get there. And I think that was an approach that I'm just used to in just work culture. But I'm like, that's not the way to do this. And so I got to know a lot of people. I sat down with a lot of people, well, virtually anyway, and just listen to others. And so I think I took the time to collaborate, which is not always the way that most people do it in the workplace. It's always one man out for themselves. I got to know people and I let them get to know me. Some of the passions that I have and I think also just using my gifts and talents in a way that honors the Lord. And so really I would say that I haven't advanced anywhere. But I do feel like I'm getting to know folks and I have more of an ear Maybe with leadership now, because I'm. The way I approached it, I think, is very humble. I don't know everything. I'm trying to learn more, but I'm also trying to help my. I think my motives were pretty pure, and I pray for that every day because it's easy to get caught up in wanting to be the best. I try to really make sure my motives are pure, and I think it shows.

That's really good. So go back to this conversation. You said as opportunities are opening up, you're meeting with people and you're listening, you're trying to understand what they want. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds to me, I want to clarify that you're trying to understand what the career ambitions are of your team. Right. You're trying to understand what they want and where they want to go so that you could support them however you possibly can. Is that what those meetings look like?

Some of them, yes. So there are times, because there are a few spaces where I am. It's weird. Like I said, I'm not in official leadership capacity, but there are spaces where I'm leading teams towards common goals. And so in some of those spaces, I am. What do you think the team should do? I tried to develop. I guess it's called a shared vision. So it's not just Shannon's vision. What do I see? What do I want? What direction should we go? But what does everyone see as best for our students and best for the staff that we're supporting? And a lot of times, sometimes it's not what I would have thought and what the direction I would have gone. But I submit to the fact that the group consensus is different than mine. And most of the time it's actually better than what I could have thought. And so, yeah, for sure. That's definitely part of it.

Yeah. In all this, you reminded me of one of my favorite passages, scripture in Philippians 2, where Paul says, do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit and humility. Value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests, but each of you to the interests of the others. I just think it's really interesting that you went there when talking about career advancement, like you're talking about listening rather than talking and posturing and positioning. I think that's a really beautiful way to think about career advancement. I do want to circle back to something you said that I think a lot of our listeners will resonate with. You talked about this guilt that you felt about wanting career advancement, wanting higher Levels of responsibilities. What convinced you that the Lord is, as you said, and I agree, honored in some of our desires for promotions and career advancement?

I would say, I think of stories like just in the Bible. I think of how the Lord advanced those to do his work. I think of Joseph, who started from very, very humble means I would even say below humble. It was just terrible what was happening to him. And the Lord elevated him. And there's, it's all throughout the Bible that those who humble themselves, the Lord exalts, and not in a way that will keep us puffed up, but in a way that exalts him. And so I do think that that kind of changed my perspective in just reading about how the Lord does put people in positions so that they can impact change for his kingdom to make the world today just a little bit better than it was yesterday. And so I do think that that kind of impacted it. I will say sometimes I still struggle, like, oh, gosh. But I think that's me, the Lord trying to keep me humble. Like, hey, this is not about you. And when you do start feeling like it's about you, the Lord kind of brings me down and it's about me. And not in a way that's harmful, but in a way that's just eye opening.

It's good. Yeah. I think a lot of those stories, especially in the Old Testament, Joseph, Daniel, where you see rapid career ascent, there is otherworldly humility exhibit in that person. And when they have a chance to boast in themselves, they're boasting the Lord. Like when Joseph is trying to get out of prison and, you know, Pharaoh asked, hey, can you interpret my dream? Joseph says, no, but God can. Right? And I'm his willing servant. Right. Like that. That's, that's true humility shining through. And I think oftentimes, not always, but I think oftentimes that's who God uses and wants to put in places of power for his glory and the good of others. Amen.

And there's, it's. It might feel different for believers when they're in a non or they're in a secular work environment for sure. But I definitely try to do that as well. There's times where they'll, like our staff will do a staff spotlight or something like that. And it goes out to everyone. And I share my faith in every single time they do that. So they might stop asking me, I don't know. But it's. I'm gonna do what Joseph did. Not me, but the Lord for sure.

Amen. Yet not I, but through Christ in me. Hey, Shannon. Four questions. We wrap up every episode of this podcast with, number one, looking ahead to the new Earth. Isaiah 65 promises, we will all long enjoy the work of our hands. What work would you love to enjoy? To God's greater glory, free from the curse of sin on the new earth.

Yes. So I have two, because I've definitely thought about this.

I've got, like, 10. So two sounds great. Yeah.

I'm like, okay, Lord, Lord, I don't know if there will be food, but.

Scripture promises there will be.

Oh, so amen. I would love to be a taste tester for whatever the Lord's about to serve everybody that I am. A foodie.

A dope answer. That's so good. I love that.

Such a foodie. So if I could just taste test before you send it out, I know it's gonna be perfect anyway. But, you know, I would just like to be the first to taste it. That would be amazing. My second is I would love to be a greeter. So, you know, when people are, I just imagine on their way, like, going through the gates, I'm just standing there, like, welcome. You know, this is the best place on, you know, ever. And so welcome. Glad you're here. I love people, so I just like to be social, so I would love to do that for those.

That's so good. I literally was just talking to somebody, Peter Greer, who I think his episode is actually dropping the week after yours, who had the exact same answer. He wanted to be a greeter. That's so funny. I like that answer. I really like Taste Tester, though.

That's really good.

That's really good. All right, Shannon, if we opened up your Amazon order history, which book would we see you buying more than once to give away to friends?

So I like or love Brant Hansen's books. There's two that I really would say one is unoffendable and one is this. The truth about us, I think that's what it's called. And both of them are just pretty much, like, putting us in our place in a very humble and funny way. He has a great sense of humor in those books, but it is all about, like, the Lord's glory in what we do and trying to make sure that we understand that so that we can be unoffendable and so that we can just live life with peace. Like, why am I walking around offended all the time?

It's really good. I am. This is going to be offensive. I have not read Unoffendable, which is insane. Because this book has been just absolutely mammoth and has been selling like crazy for about two years now. I got. I gotta. I gotta add it to my list.

It's a great book.

All right, Shannon, your friend Candace Lavert recommended that we have you on the podcast. Who do you recommend that we have on this podcast to talk about how their faith is shaping the work they do in the world?

So I believe, and this might be a little biased, but my husband, Lawrence Doss, he is a referee.

Oh, come on.

Yes, that's his part time. But he does referees college football. And he's always very much. We're talking spiritually converse. Spiritual conversations about how he wants to honor the Lord in the work that he does. He's also advancing and he wants to honor the Lord in his advancement. He's very much intentional that the Lord shines through his actions and he's not like out there preaching the gospel to all his referee buddies. The way in which he does his work, it really inspires me to even do the work that I do.

Oh, my gosh, I love this answer. Will you please connect me with your husband?

I will. I'm gonna tell. I told him this morning. I said, you know, I'm gonna mention you right.

Now. This is legit. He's refereeing some big games here in D1. College football.

Yep.

Okay. All right, send me. Connect me to Lawrence. I love that we've never had a referee on the show. I love when we find obscure. I don't know if we can call referee obscure, but just vocations that we've never had on the show before. I love it. I'm all about it. All right, Shannon, we've talked about a lot of different things on the podcast today. What's one thing you want to reiterate to our listeners before we sign off?

I think I would want to say for listeners to really get that the way we do our work daily should mirror what God expects or it should glorify God daily. So not just in the big moments, but in the way in which we take pins from the break room. Like, we shouldn't do that. That's stealing. The way in which we use our time, the way in which we talk to others, I think all things can point to the glory of God, even if we're not explicitly sharing the gospel. And so I would encourage everyone to do their work in a way that glorifies the Lord. And that is, I forget the scripture, but I think Paul says that we want to be act in a manner that's worthy of the calling that we've received. And so I would say that would be that I would encourage all our listeners to do that.

That's right. And I'm also thinking of Paul's words in First Corinthians 10:31. Whether you eat or drink. Yes, whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. The way you work from home, do it for the glory God. The way that you engage in a chat room or a slack channel, do it all for the glory of God. The way that you don't take pens, as seemingly insignificant as that is from the break room, do it all for the glory of God. And all of this is evangelism. All of this, this is what we miss. All of its evangelism, all of it is testifying to the type of God that we say we believe in, that we say that we serve. And Shannon, you are a terrific example. I know, an imperfect one, but a terrific example of what it looks like to declare the glories of God with excellence in how you work. So I just want to commend you for, for the exceptional work you do for the glory of God and the good of others. For allowing the Lord to transform your heartbreak, as I said before, into a heart that serves others through the ministry of excellence. And just for giving us really good. Seemingly small, but I would argue big in the grand scheme of eternity. Just beautiful case studies of what it looks like to work with obedience. Hey Shannon, if people want to connect with you, where's the best place for them to do that? Is it LinkedIn?

Yes, I am no longer on social medias so I had some struggles and I needed to get off. But yes, I'm still on LinkedIn so they can find me there. And some of the professional things that I've done, it's all on my LinkedIn.

Shannon, thanks for spending time with us today.

Thank you so much for having me.

Ah, I love that episode so much. I hope her husband is able to to come on the podcast. By the way, we need more guests from the world of sports. So if you know somebody who is deeply integrating their faith into their work in the air arena of sports beyond, you know the typical point your finger in the air and give God credit for a touchdown. I want to hear about them. Let me know about them@jordanrayner.com contact. Hey guys, thank you so much for tuning in this week. I'll see you next time. Hey friends, this is your last chance to claim all the amazing pre order bonuses for five mere Christians before they go away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9. I've never offered this many pre order bonuses on a book before, so when you fill out the form@5merechristians.com Number one, you're going to be entered to win an incredible trip for you and a friend to tour CS Lewis's favorite spots in Oxford, explore Olay Kirk Christiansen's former stomping grounds at Lego headquarters in Denmark, and much more. Number two, you'll be invited to join my first ever interactive reading, culminating in a zoom call with me and my co author on this book, Kaylee Cox. Number three, you're going to be getting a money back guarantee to try the book risk free. And number four, you'll also get access to a free course I'm not selling anywhere called how to write a book 10x faster and better with an Affordable co author. You can claim all these bonuses in just two simple steps. Step 1 Pre order 5 mere Christians in any format you want. It can be hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever and you can order it from wherever. Doesn't matter to me. STEP 2 Go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form of that page. And that's it. I'll send you all those bonuses. You'll be entered into the sweepstakes with one simple form submission. But hey, don't wait all of these off. All of these offers, all these bonuses. They're going away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9, so visit 5meerchristians.com right now to claim your bonuses.