Shaun Castillo (President of Preferred Technologies)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back.

Guarantee on this book.

I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why?

Two reasons.

One, this is a different book for me, right. I know this is a very different biography. What is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can.

Glorify God in our work, but in.

Five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on.

This podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right? So that's the first reason this is.

A risk and I'm gonna de risk.

This book for you.

Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon.

With the pace of a great thriller, this is it.

Highly recommended.

End quote. But here's the thing.

In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on 5 mereChristians. Calm and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5merechristians.com right now to sign up.

Now, please enjoy today's episode.

Hey everybody. Welcome to the Mere Christians podcast.

Hi, I'm Jordan Raynor.

How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians?

Those of us who aren't pastors but who work as jewelers, cable installers, and pharmacists. That's the question we explore every week.

And today I'm posing it to my.

Good friend, Sean Castillo.

He's one of my favorite people on Earth. He's a crazy, talented leader. Played Division 1 college football at the.

United States Military Academy at West Point, served as an officer in the United States army, including a state of combat in Iraq.

But for the last 13 years, Sean.

Has served as the president of Preferred Technologies, a large security installer based in Houston, Texas.

Sean and I finally got a chance.

To record one of our many conversations publicly.

And we talked about how we can spot the deeply personal needs of the.

People that we work with.

We talked about the injustice that blue.

Collar workers experience in our culture today and what you and I could do about it.

And we also shared these three ways that you and I can scratch off the kingdom.

I'm not talking about gambling scratch offs. Please don't send me your angry emails.

But. But how can we, through our work.

Reveal what's on the other side of the thin veil that separates earth and heaven? I promise you guys are going to love this episode with my friend, Sean Castillo. Sean Castillo, welcome to the podcast, brother.

Thank you. It's an honor to be here.

Longtime listener, first time caller. I was thinking before we got on.

I think the first time we ever.

Talked live, we've been friends for a couple years, was my favorite Zoom meeting of all time with you and your son Kyle, who was. How old was he? This is a couple years ago.

He would have been eight at the time.

And so Kyle wants to be a writer. I don't know if he still wants to be a writer, but he did when he was 8. And so we hop on Zoom, you, me, and Kyle, and Kyle asks, like, the most thoughtful questions, clearly coached by his father about the craft of writing. It was awesome. How's Kyle doing these days? Is he writing anything? He's got to get to it.

He writes here and there. He's a pretty creative kid. He is enjoying being the center of joy in his classroom at school right now. And luckily, he's channeling that well. I think he still, he loves to create. He's always drawing something. And I think what's beautiful about Kyle's heart is it's always for another. It's always to lift up another. And he certainly gets that from his mom more than I. But he's. He's a joy to be around and a joy to father, that's for sure. I love it.

Well, I can't wait to read his first graphic novel. Hey, Sean. So. So let's give some context to our listeners. Sure. What is preferred technologies? What do you guys do?

What we do physically is we design, build, and service security systems. Not cybersecurity systems, but physical security systems. So if you go into a bank or a classroom or an airport and you see the cameras hanging on the wall, you see the card readers to enter a door, that's what we do. We design, build, and install those systems.

Got it. And give us an idea of the scale of the business, how many people are on the team, where are you guys based, all that good stuff.

Sure. We have 119 employees today. Our main office that we started in 2005 is in Houston, Texas, and we opened an Austin office in 2016 that is like the rest of the Austin market. Thriving, right?

Yeah. Yeah. And you guys can't hire fast enough?

Cannot.

All right, so your dad founded this business?

Actually, no.

Is that not true?

It was actually a family founding.

Oh, interesting.

So my mother, father, and myself, I had left the army, called home to tell my parents I was going to school. And they said, well, why don't you table that for a little while and come join us, and we're going to start a security business, huh?

And I thought I knew you so well.

Not so much. What, so you were in the army for how long?

Five and a half years after my time at the military academy.

Okay, you spent a year in combat in Iraq. What led you to make the leap from the military to business?

The call with my. My father. And actually, it was a really good mentor. Always have good mentors around you, that's for sure. But I was in the army, decided to get out of the Army. My wife and I were ready to start a family, and I knew if I stayed in the Army, I was going to stay in operations, and I would be gone every other year. And the examples around me not fared well in their family situations. So I didn't want to fall into that and so decided to get out. I called my parents and told them I was going to go back to school. My dream had always been to manage ranches in South Texas. So I was going to go to Texas A and M Kingsville to have a great fellowship in wildlife management.

Yeah, you'd been a great rancher, man.

My commander at the time said, sean, you know, I've been in the army for 23 years, and my preference is you stay in the Army. But I will tell you of all my friends that spent their careers in the army and have gotten out recently. Majority of them went to Fortune 500 companies that hated it. Here you have an opportunity to take a business over to work with your family and then take the business over in the future. And not many people get that opportunity.

Yeah.

He said, I recommend you go and try that out. And if it doesn't work, the school. School will still be there. And luckily I heeded his advice and I'm here today because of it.

Yeah. It's a really good question to ask when discerning vocational paths. Like, what's the worst case scenario in both directions. And usually when you play that out, it becomes pretty clear. I talk about this in Master of One. There are very few irreversible decisions. Right, Right. And God can use even the pain of the worst circumstances for good. Yeah. I was, I was telling somebody the other day, Sean, a mutual friend of ours, you're one of the godliest and spirit filled people I know.

Wow.

And I know that always hasn't been.

The case for you. I know. I know. Your faith got serious, like, later in life.

Sure.

I think there's a lot of people.

Listening who, who probably have a similar story. And so I'm just curious, like, what encouragement you would have for those listening who may not be particularly proud of their past and question whether or not God can really use them in the future.

Can you talk to that person for a minute?

Oh, for sure. So if you're out there and you're listening, let my life be an example. I was not a Christ follower for my first 38 years. I would have told you if you asked me if I believed in God, I would have said yes just because it was the right thing to do. It was the, you know, I was kind of the good American, all American type kid. And I would have told you that I do believe in God, but certainly didn't have a relationship, certainly didn't know the Bible, certainly didn't know the gospel in my heart. I radically met Jesus in 2016, just again, radically changed my life, changed everything about my life. And what's been really interesting and to me shows the sovereignty of God, shows how much he loves me, is that those first 38 years he was working diligently. Though I rebelled against him at times, though I couldn't see him at all. He worked through all of that to give me experience, to give me insights, to give me knowledge that I would argue enhances my ability to see him now and to appreciate him now. And so whatever God has done with you, good or bad, like you said, Even in the pain that one day you will be able to look back and see how he was using that for good. For good in your heart and for good of those around you.

Yeah. And so frequently in scripture, it is those people with really rough pasts that God uses the most. He used a murderer named Moses. Right. Prostitute named Rahab. He used. I mean, Peter was a traitor. Right?

Right.

And when he does use these people.

I think the whole point is he.

Gets such greater glory. Like he's the hero of that story.

Just, just beautiful one that. That comes to mind as you speak is John, chapter 8, verses 1 through 11, with the. The woman caught in adultery. And just the heart of Jesus, you know, he. The accusers place her right in the middle. Right in the middle. And Jesus does this weird thing where he kneels down and draws in the sand and you look at his heart for her. He took the attention off of her. He took the attention off of her plight addressed, obviously, the accusers, they left one by one because they condemned themselves by Jesus words. But when they were gone and she's left right there in the middle, I would probably bet the low point of her life, he gently asked, where are they at now? Where are your accusers now? Has anyone condemned you? And he says, nor do I. Just how God will meet you in that deep, dark place when you're at your worst. That's where he met me, when I was at my worst. And he will remove the condemnation that this world wants to put on us. It's just such a beautiful story. And I would say to those listening, if you feel condemnation, there is a beautiful place where Jesus will meet you. And he will deal with that condemnation in a beautiful way.

There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Paul says in Romans 8. 1. Yeah, I love the story of the woman in John 8, because Jesus did speak truth to her.

Right.

He didn't gloss over the sin, but first, his initial impulse. Dane Ortland talks about this beautifully in his book Gentle and Lowly, was to show compassion, was to bear her shame, take her shame upon himself, step in the middle of that situation, and then deal gently and lovingly what they're saying. Hey, I don't think we've ever talked about this, but.

So you came to Faith in Christ in 2016.

You'd already been working in the business for, if my math is right, seven years. How did your salvation change your relationship to the work of building this business?

Well, I all but destroyed the business because I was rooted in self. And he showed Me what the true nature of myself and showed me a different way. And so in 2016, started walking the path of redemption with Christ, and he has redeemed everything to include the business. We look much, though we still install cameras, we still install card readers, service our customers physically the same way. The nature of our business is fundamentally different. I tell people we're a relationship business that happens to install cameras and card readers, and we really focus on developing relationship. I think so much of that has been lost. You know, my ideal picture of relationship is Genesis 2:25. God has created man and woman, and they stand before each other naked and feel no shame. How far are we from that in our society today, where we can just be who God created us to be and not feel the condemnation, not feel the shame. You know, we have so many posers trying to be what we think this world needs to be. And so we try to get as close to that ideal relationship as we can with one another in the company, with our employees, with our vendors, and with our customers. And, you know, our belief is that if our customers can see that heart for them, see that love for them, that the business will succeed.

What does that look like? Maybe.

Maybe talk through an example of an instance where it would have been very easy for an employee or a customer or a vendor to experience shame. But because of the way you guys have built the culture of this business, they did not feel that shame and that condemnation. Does that make sense? Is there an example that comes to mind there, Sean?

Yeah. So we concentrate and we really focus on doing large, complex projects. We like the enterprise, commercial space of business. And like with anything complex, there are going to be issues, especially new construction. We're trying to design and build a building from our heads right into this creation. And so people are going to make mistakes. Traditionally in the construction industry, very legalistic, very contractually focused. You know, we signed up for this to these specifications. You're now asking for this. We're not doing it like, no grace order, for example. And I think in those times, especially when a customer makes a mistake or makes a mistake, how do we deal with that? Do we push back and charge the heck out of them and increase our profit margin, or do we work with them? Do we find efficiencies in the project where we can cover that mistake at no cost to the customer? Things like that? I think that's a way we can model that love for one another rather than attacking the customer and trying to gain an advantage for ourselves. It's like, hey, we're all in it for the same goal. We want to build a beautiful building that's secure and safe. We made a mistake. Let's work through it and let's make something great despite.

Yeah, but it's not like, oh, the customer's made a mistake and so now we can exploit that weakness.

It's, hey, exactly. And traditionally, I mean, that's why. That's why contractors have a bad name.

Right.

Because most exploit that.

Right.

Anybody who's done a house remodel knows what I'm talking about.

Yeah, for sure. Thinking of a couple of those conversations, your LinkedIn headline really gets at the heart of what you're talking about. It says, as the president of Preferred Technologies, I work to advance human flourishing. Right. And shame is a piece of that. Removing that shame. But it's all about contributing to human flourishing.

Is that what you believe?

God wants our focus to be in our work, cultivating the flourishing of other image bearers?

I think first he wants a relationship, even in our vocation.

Yeah. Amen.

You talk about the great book by Sky Jathani, you know, where it talks about being with being, the correct posture of God. So I think that's first and foremost. But in that withness, if you will, as we're with God, he will show us how to make the kingdom visible. The way I like to think of it is God created a very ordered world and asked us to join him in stewarding it. With the introduction of sin, we now have disorder. And so if we in our vocation can in a little way work with God to restore some of that order, then we make the kingdom visible, that kingdom that is near, that we can't see. If we help through our vocation and reordering that, then we make it visible to those around us.

Yeah. And security systems do this, right?

They can, right? So I get up every day, and this may sound a little weird to some, but I think God has called me to be a castle builder, to build castles. And so I get up every day knowing what I'm going to do, and I build castles. And when you think of a castle, a kingdom, castle, if you will, I'm going to steal from you a little bit. Through some of your teachings, you talk to us about what the consummated kingdom of God looks like. And some of those points are perfect relationship with God, justice, beauty, order, cultural excellence, physical health, joy, peace, safety, abundance and shelter, those type of things. And that's one thing we can instill. So we live in a world ruled by sin, the devil's present we've got a world that's fighting against us. Our own flesh is fighting against us. And so if we, through the work we do, can create some safety, some security in the places we get to work so that people can perform better work, then I think we've brought the kingdom near. We brought the kingdom to light.

Yeah, I think that's exactly right.

There's so, so many platitudes, so much.

Terminology around the kingdom. You hear of people saying, you know, Christians are called to grow the kingdom or advance the kingdom or the analogy, I've shared this with you before. The analogy that's like really sticky in my mind these days is that of a scratch off, not a gambling scratch off. I don't want to hear angry emails. Right, but, but you know what I'm talking about, right?

Like the scratch off the kids have.

They'Re totally black on the front. You scratch them off with a little stylus or a quarter and on the backside of it there's something beautiful, right. I think that's a pretty good picture of this world. The kingdom of God is what's beautiful on the other side of this sin laden world. And we through our vocations have the opportunity to scratch off the kingdom, if you will, and give people glimpses of the marks of that consummated kingdom, which as you mentioned, right order, beauty, justice, cultural excellence, joy, etc. Etc. Etc.

And you know, I think there's a.

Few postures we could take to that. I think we can weed out what doesn't belong in the Kingdom of God through our work. I think, I think that is one way that we scratch off the kingdom. I think we can plant things that do belong in the kingdom of God. But I think the third is a posture that I know you really resonate with. We've talked about this before. I think we can reveal the kingdom simply when we serve as faithful representatives, faithful ambassadors of our king.

Right.

So Sean, like what does that look like for you? Like as you think about being an ambassador of the king, what does that look like day to day as you lead this business?

To me it's, it's really being present with him. I love brother Lawrence's old book, practicing the presence of God. Just really being in tune with God in the day to day and being so in tune that the little decisions, the little acts, I'm working with God in those moments and making choices. I love how the Bible in our western world, I think we shy away from all dimensions of obedience. In the Bible we, you know, Independent Americans, we don't like to be obedient to anyone. But I've learned to see that as a beautiful form of love. Like God says, this is the way I made things, and I didn't make them this other way. And I'm asking you to. I'm asking you to choose my way. And I just love that. I see that as, again, a great act of love. And so if I'm in tune with God, if I'm listening to him and he reveals to me something that he would like me to do, and I obey that, I think that's where I'm being most faithful to God, and I think that's where I commune with Him. That's what it looks like to me to be a great ambassador.

Yeah, I love that you brought up Genesis to a couple of minutes ago. Because when I think about prep tech preferred technologies, I think one of the ways that you guys cultivate human flourishing is treating the work of your blue collar workers with great dignity. Right. I think. I think this ultimately stems in an understanding of Genesis 2, right. That God worked with his hands to sculpt human beings and plant gardens. Jesus worked as a carpenter. Right. Like, have you. Have you dwelled on this? Like, does that reality that we worship a God who works with his words and his hands show shaped the culture that you built at Preftech and elevating blue collar work to almost an art form?

Undoubtedly. Wow. The folks first filled with the Holy Spirit in the Bible were the craftsmen. And I think a great injustice of our time in America has been the degradation of the tradesmen. Our young kids, we want them to aspire to be financiers and lawyers and doctors. And I think we've looked at the tradesmen incorrectly. I mean, the tradesmen live a life of service. Whether I'm putting electricity in a building or assembling an electric vehicle, whatever I'm doing as a tradesman, I'm contributing to the greater good. And there's such honor and beauty in that. And it is filled with craftsmanship. We were talking about doing home renovations, but if you look at a home renovation, if you look at someone doing drywall work, there is an art to that.

Yes.

And when you watch someone who makes it, I've done a lot of it myself, and it's not pretty and it takes a lot, and I get frustrated, and then I go see someone who does that for a living work. And again, it's an art form. It's beautiful the way they can just make it look easy. I just Again, I think it's an injustice, the view we've given to our tradesmen. And we make it a point to highlight that. We make it a point to show the beauty in the craftsmanship. Craftsmanship is part of our purpose statement at the company. And really I've tried in the last couple years after reading good work by Dave Hatag. I love Dave so much. Exactly. I mean, just to really to. Let's transform the view of the tradesman.

Yes.

Let's get back to the beauty that lies in there, the service that lies in. In the trades. And let's create systems in our society that promote the trades, that elevate the trades, and that we give to our society, people, craftsmen, that can be the foundation of who we are as Americans.

This is a big idea. I want to go deeper on this. You and I share a love of our. Our mutual friend, Dave Haytag. By the way, if you haven't listened to Dave Haytig's episode of the Mere Christ podcast, go way back in the archives and find it. It's so, so good. You mentioned the word injustice twice. That's a strong word. But I think it's right. Right. This is a form of injustice that we have instilled. This culture of viewing the trades as this second class work. Right.

You're right.

We're pushing our kids to this. So I'm curious, you talked about how you're trying to change this with in the four walls of preferred technologies. What does that look like? How practically are you guys trying to help your team see their manual labor as art and craftsmanship?

Well, first and foremost, recognize it, talk about it. You know, again, it's in our purpose statement. And we talk about our purpose statement too often. Yeah, right. You know, reiterate, reiterate. We use it as our decision platform. So if you come to a decision and it supports our purpose statement, you'll never be wrong. So first and foremost, we talk about it, we train it, we teach it, we call it out, and then we really want to build programs that reteach our folks. The beauty of it, I think a big barrier to mastering a trade or mastering a skill is that it takes work. Years of work, years of hard work, years of failure and restarts. And our society today, you know, we celebrate the 20, 27 year old NFL head coach.

Right.

You know, that's what gets the media, not the guy who's toiled for 20 years to perfect his craft. And so we try to slow down our team. And it's hard these days, especially young Eager, ambitious folks. But let's, let's slow down. Let's invest at becoming masters in our craft. And it's going to take time. So, no, you're not going to be CEO of the company in two years. But there is great appreciation for what you can contribute throughout the journey. Here's the role you play, here's the value in it, here's the beauty in it, and here's some partners to go along with you. You know, here are mentors, here are fellow mentees, and let's all go towards this end of beautiful craftsmanship together.

Yeah, I. I love that you guys articulated on the website as the highest level of craftsmanship and service. Right. There's. You're talking about a commitment to excellence. Talk for a minute about why this is so important to you as a Christmas. Why do you think Christians should have the highest standards of excellence in their work?

I love the word winsome.

Yeah, let's bring winsome back. This is such a great word.

I hope that my faith is evident and I hope that people see the excellence. I don't always achieve it, obviously, but that we work towards. Yes, that excellence is our standard. And I hope someone marries, can easily marry the two that maybe Sean's desire for excellence is rooted in his faith. And I hope that's winsome. I hope that excellence, that with which we work, the excellent products we produce, solutions we produce, the excellent way we treat our customers, I hope is winsome. And it draws people in and they want to know the foundation of it and that we can happily discuss our Jesus.

Yeah.

And I think, because, listen, non Christians.

Have high standards of excellence too. So I think, I think the shade of nuance that's like really important to color in here is like how we pursue excellent work. So, yes, it's a commitment to excellence, but we're not going to shame you if you don't attain excellence in everything. And we're also going to go on this path to excellence in a different way. Right. So how do you think you guys do this differently? Because there's a Christ follower in the president's chair of this business. How does the path to mastery, this path to excellence look different? Different than it might in another company? Sean.

I think it's the heart of it. Just like Jesus talks about seeing the heart much more than the external actions, I think the external actions play a part. But I hope that in our pursuit of excellence, in our desire for excellence, hopefully in the excellent products that we provide our customers, that they not only see the excellent product but the heart behind it. And again, I think it's in the struggles that they see that in those challenges and projects, the challenges with employees at times, the failures we have, I think that exposes our character. Adversity reveals character. And so I hope that in the adversity that happens with every project, happens with every service goal, in that adversity, we're able to produce excellence.

Yeah.

But that customers can see the heart of that excellence is not our own profitable game. But again, it's. It's for their benefit and for the common greater good.

Yeah. Based on Yalls growth rate, I have no doubt that customers would describe your products and services as. As excellent, maybe even exceptional. But I gotta say so, I've gotten to know you pretty well over the last couple years. What I've had insight to is the excellent way you treat your people. In the past year alone, you've asked me to pray for one of your employees who lost his home in a tornado, another employee who was served divorce papers, another employee who was dying of cancer. The list goes on and on.

You're the president of the company.

It's not a small company, got 120 people. It'd be very easy for you to just not. Not know of these needs, not see these needs. But you do. That's really interesting to me. Like, I'm curious what you do to make sure that you personally are seeing the needs in the life of your team members.

One, I surround myself with folks who do it better. Way better than I do. Yeah. We have just an amazing group of people at this company who truly care about others. We call ourselves a family. We are a family. We care about the family. And so I would attribute most of that to them bringing issues to my attention, knowing that I'm going to pray for somebody if asked, and them coming to me, hey, this person doesn't want anybody to know. But I know you're a prayer warrior. I know you'll pray for this person. That's all we can give them at the moment. So please just go pray. And I'm. I will not hesitate to ask folks like you and folks in my community to join me. But it's just listening. At the end of the day, how I treat people is much more important than the bottom line that I'm able to display to a bank or somebody analyzing our company. That at the end of the day, when I'm on my deathbed, those are some of the things that are going to warm my heart to know that I've contributed to allowing people to flourish. And I think prayer is a big part of flourishing because we can't flourish without our God. And so interceding on others behalf is important. And I walking throughout the day, communing with God again, practicing the presence. Part of that is not walking by an image bearer and passing them by, but asking God to show me what that person needs to hear or see. And then being obedient if I hear something.

Yeah. And like a real practical level, though, I. That requires the discipline of eliminating. Hurry. To quote Willard from your calendar.

Right.

Because if you're constantly rushing from one meeting to the next, you don't have the time to look those other image bearers in the eye and ask how things are going and really like, measure their response and whether or not you need to go deeper.

Right, Right. Wow. We celebrate hurriedness, we celebrate the grind. We celebrate busyness in our society and measure, measure people by it quite often, especially in business, you know, the lady that's at the office 24 7, being productive is the one who usually gets elevated. And I think it comes at great cost and great expense. And that great cost and that great expense being missing the heart of people. Yeah. Missing that person that needs a quick conversation. Missing that person who needs prayer, as you mentioned. So I sincerely appreciate the work you've done with time and publishing the book. Redeeming your time. I've implemented that. That's given me back a lot of margin in my day. It's allowed me to focus and be productive on business things when I need to be productive on business things, but create space within my day to be purposeful and be present with those who need me to be.

Yeah. I'm so glad you brought up the word margin.

Right.

Because I think that is the key here. Like if we want to see the needs of the people we work with. I just think it's impossible to do unless there's plenty of margin on our calendars. Would you agree?

Absolutely. Agree. Absolutely. I agree. And I love the concept of the shallows and serendipity. So if you don't know what I'm talking about, read the book redeeming your time. But I know mentally in my mind that at the end of my day, I have space for the shallow work. The credit card expense report, for example, that I loathe. And I have space, but I know I have that space in the back of my mind. So if I'm focused on something in my morning and someone comes into my office and has a need, I know that I have margin at the end of my day to fill the gap and I can be present with that person and I don't have to turn them away and stay focused because I'm so hurried and I can't get everything done. So I wholeheartedly believe that having that margin in your day is imperative to being present for those around you.

Yeah. Hey, I gotta ask you this, and I promise it's not because I'm trying to sell my own book, but to give our listeners a tool to serve as a bridge to sharing the gospel with their co workers. Because you surprised me. You shot me an email a few months back. You're like, hey, I want to teach redeeming your time to a group of non Christians. And you did it. What was that experience like? Were they receptive to these time management principles from the life of Christ?

Well, everybody has issues with time in today's professional environment. And I spoke, it was actually twice. I taught at a couple security industry conventions. It's been so powerful to my life that I just had this. I wouldn't even call it a need. It was this call to share it and help others, hopefully redeem some of the time and focus themselves on what matters. Obviously, they were not Christian events, so I had to. To shape it.

Yeah, of course.

But it was beautiful. And I love your response because I asked you, I said, hey, I'm going to present this to more than likely some non believers and what would you say to them about your book? And I loved your response. He said, well, I think anyone can look at Jesus and say, hey, this Guy worked for three years and it's changed the world for the next 2000 and beyond into eternity, if you believe in him. So he probably knows a thing or two about productivity and time management. So let's listen to him. And I think that was the hook to the crowd that I needed.

You know, it's funny, and that line's.

Not in the book, but I, because I listen, I wrote redeeming your time for the church for Christians.

Right.

Like I. Unapologetically, the gospel is on almost every page of that book.

But I've been asked to talk about.

Redeeming your time in a lot of corporate environments. Like I was in. I was at a mass mutual event in the Carolinas a couple of weeks ago. And if statistics are right, maybe 10% of that audience were serious followers of Jesus.

But yeah, when you get up into.

A room like that and you say, hey, pretty hard to dispute that Jesus of Nazareth was the most productive person.

Who ever walked the earth, yeah.

And you like, say it and you like, watch people like, yeah, that, that makes sense. Time magazine has called him the person of the last two millennia. Right. So what can we learn?

And then you tell them, oh, hey.

By the way, there are four biographies written shortly after Jesus's death and resurrection of how this Guy managed a 24 hour day. You want to learn more? Oh, they want to learn more.

Sure.

Oh, they want to learn more. And so anyways, I bring it up because you're such a good example of this. I'm so grateful that you did this because I think this God is using this book in some unexpected ways to open up conversations with non believers because everybody wants to redeem more time and their. They're open to hearing solutions wherever that solution might come from. And if they actually read the book, they're going to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ preached explicitly. Right. So good encouragement to you guys listening. Follow Sean's.

Yeah, I just, I laugh because I know how, how much of a planner you are. I know that in Jordan's mind, you had the next 10 years of this book life planned out to the T. Yeah. And I just love to hear, and I giggle inside that Jordan has these plans and this is what's going to happen. But God has so much more for us. He's like, just sit, sit down, Jordan, and let me show you what a real show looks like.

Sit down, shut your mouth, let me show you. I love it so much. Hey, I want to ask you about one more thing that I've been privy to in some private conversations with you. You and I have talked through a number of difficult conversations, really difficult conversations you've had to have with leaders on your team.

Right. Some Christians, some not. I think you've learned a lot about.

Confrontation over the last couple of years. And I'm curious for you to share a little bit about how God's word has influenced your approach to those difficult conversations.

Well, we talked when we first started about the first 38 years of my life.

Yeah.

Coming into play now. So I went to West Point. I went to the military academy. Not because I had this altruistic heart and I was going to go serve my country and do my part for society because that was my only chance to play Division 1 football. That's the only way I went there.

That's a pretty darn good reason.

I enjoyed my time there, had the honor of going to fight in combat. And God taught me what a warrior looks like in the physical, obviously, but he taught me warfare, the art of Warfare. He taught me what soldiering was, obedience, discipline, those sorts of things. And he's allowed me to see the spiritual battle we're in much more clearly. And I'm very confident in venturing into the fray. And I actually look for that tension. I look now. I do. I look for the conflict. So much of our society runs from conflict. We want to go to that safe, secure place where everything's easy, the utopia, if you will. And I think God calls us to be warriors in the spiritual fight.

Amen.

And so I actually run into the tension. Am I still scared? Am I fearful? Do I lack confidence? Absolutely. But that's just where God calls me. I've learned more about him through and his image bearers. I've learned more about him and his image bearers in those difficult conversations than in a lot of places. If you do it right, it allows you to see yourself and what you bring to the table and will allow you to expose some things that maybe need to be purified a little bit in your own heart. But, man, there's just so much to be gained in those difficulties. Conversation. What's amazing to me is my bent is I always look to the worst. Okay, we're going to have this difficult conversation. I'm going to lose this relationship, but then this is going to happen, and that's going to happen. And in every case, when I go in back to the Genesis 2:25 mentality, when I go in vulnerable and authentic and real, and I have that difficult conversation every single time, the relationship has been stronger on the back end. And so I have to convince myself, I don't know, it may take a few more years, but I have to convince myself that to see the beauty that's going to come from that difficult conversation.

That's good. That's a good word.

Have there been any passages of scripture.

Or books specifically on that topic that have really influenced your approach to resolving conflict?

I can't bring any to mind.

Yeah, you should teach a masterclass on this because I've seen this behind the scenes. You're really good at it.

Something is really, I think God's putting on my heart to take what I've learned through warfare and apply it to the spiritual fight. And call men, especially have a heart for men, but call men into. Into the spiritual battle.

I love that.

I don't know. So maybe there's a book there. I don't know.

It sounds like there's a book there. All right, Sean, you know the drill. Three questions. We wrap up every conversation with number One. Which books do you find yourself recommending or gifting most frequently to others?

I heard Os Guinness on your podcast and he really tailors the book to the receiver and I tend to do that. But I will not evade the question and I'll give you on Friday. I gave away a book that man just. I treasure. It's called the Waiting Father Sermons on the parable of Jesus. It's by an old German theologian, Helmut Thielicke. And I met this book. Actually a mentor of mine gave me this book probably a month into meeting Jesus and wow. I mean, it's called the Waiting Father. And I saw through the parables of Jesus how much God loves me. And it just wrecked me. And it helped me have this fire and this love for Christ that has never waned. So that's when I gave away. Because it was so impactful to me, I gave it away to somebody just this morning. I've been walking with a gentleman for a few months now who's battling some. Some things and he happens to be a father. Sent him the Intentional Father A practical guide to raise sounds of courage and character by John Tyson and David Kinnaman. Love that book. It's a little challenging, convicting in some ways, but man, what an idea. And I love that John and David gave that to the world. And then I'm a big Jefferson Bethke fan. I love his book take back your family. Really as a father of three young men, it just made me rethink what I'm doing, actually taking a piece of that. My middle son just turned 13, so he and I are going to start doing morning devotionals next week. I love it, very practical.

And I'll just co sign any endorsement of Jeff and John, which.

Speaking of which, I just realized we.

Never had either of them on this podcast, which is insane. I gotta, I gotta invite these guys on. Yeah, if these two, I would say those two and Josh Straub, who I love those three guys I really trust deeply on parenting. I think the Intentional Father is the best book I've ever read on parenting. It's really written for fathers of sons and my listeners know, you know, I have three daughters, but I still found a lot of application and I just thought was phenomenal. Sean, who do you want to hear on this podcast?

I have a cousin that lives in Austin. His name's Cameron Corbin and he is a pastor at Whitestone Church there in Lakeway, which is on the west side of Austin. But it's not a full time job for him. He's also A of part businessman. So he co labors in two vocations and I think it gives him a unique perspective. And he absolutely loves Jesus and I think he would be a blessing on this podcast. I think people need to hear him speak. I think he has. God's given him something to say. So I'd love to hear Cameron Corbin.

That's a good recommendation. All right, Sean, you're talking to an audience of mere Christians like yourself. They're not pastors, they're not religious professionals. They're CEOs and tradesmen and stay at home parents and nurses. What's one thing from our conversation today you want to reiterate to them before we sign off?

I think that God is in the everyday. God is in the mundane. He's in the high points, the peaks and the valleys, and just join him, commune with him, speak with him, be with him in everything you do. And I think he'll start to transform your heart, transform the things around you into something that's absolutely beautiful and something that you treasure and look forward to doing every day.

Sean, brother, I love you. I just want to commend you for the exceptional work you do every single day. For the glory of God and the good of others, for serving your customers and your team members through the ministry of excellence and man, for reminding us today of the God given dignity of all work. Blue collar, white collar, purple collar, whatever collar that contributes to human flourishing. Guys, if you want to learn more about Sean and his remarkable business, you can do so@pretech.com that's P R E F-Tech T-E C H.com and you guys.

Are hiring like crazy, right, Sean?

So there's probably some jobs up there.

Absolutely. If. If you want some good work and you want to work here, by all means apply. We will teach you the trade. I love it.

Sean, thanks for joining us.

Thank you, Jordan.

Man, I love that episode so much. I hope you guys did too. Hey, by the way, I pretty much never talk about this publicly, but the.

Reason why Sean and I know each.

Other so well is he's a part of a small mastermind I league for Christian entrepreneurs who are deeply serious about Jesus and building great businesses. We almost never have availability in the group. There's no availability right now, but you never know, somebody might leave for whatever reason. We cap it at 12 people. And so currently we're all set.

But if you have any interest in.

Participating in that group in the future and hanging out with Sean and other founders like him, shoot me an email@helloordanrayner.com and we'll put you on the waiting list for when a spot does open up. Guys, thank you so much for tuning in to the Mere Christians Podcast this week. We love making this show for you guys. I hope you guys love listening to it. I'll see you next time week.

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