Sherron Watkins (Enron Whistleblower)

The episode you're about to listen to was released back when the Mere Christians podcast was called the Call to Mastery. Now, if you love Mere Christians, you're still going to love these older episodes because the majority of each conversation focuses on how the gospel influences the work of our guests. With that disclaimer out of the way, please enjoy the episode. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I'm Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. Every week I'm bringing you a conversation with somebody who's following Jesus Christ and pursuing world class mastery of their work, of their vocation. We're talking about their path to mastery. We're talking about the guests daily habits and how their faith influences the work they do in the world. Today's Guest if you've read Master of One, you already know parts of her story. You're gonna hear even more today. Her name is Sharon Watkins. She's the woman who blew the whistle on Enron and was largely responsible for the prosecution of more than 20 Enron executives after one of the biggest corporate scandals in history. In 2002, Time magazine named Sharon and two other whistleblowers as their Persons of the Year. Before the Enron saga, Sharon had an incredibly impressive career as an accountant and an executive. But getting into that VP position is what put her at Enron, in the room where it happens. The room where she could leverage her power sacrificially to serve others and to end this massive fraud. Sharon and I recently sat down. We talked about her experience blowing the whistle on Enron, how Mastery can put us in the room where it happens, and the tremendous advice her pastor gave her when she was considering leaving Enron to go into more overt forms of ministry. I loved this conversation. I love every time I get a chance to talk to my friend Sharon Watkins. Enjoy this episode. Sharon. Thanks for being here.

Well, thank you Jordan for having me.

It's been two years, by the way. I was looking at my calendar two years since we last spoke live via phone. We've exchanged emails in between then, but when we talked about Master of One. I don't think I told you this when we were on the phone two years ago, but I first heard your name when my wife was attending some faith and work conference in Dallas. I don't know, maybe four or five years ago. And she called me, she's like, babe, I found my new hero. And I'm like, oh, she's in Dallas. Maybe President Bush stopped by, like some big celebrity, whatever. And she goes, no, it's the accountant Enron that like blew the whistle. And I just like, laughed out loud. My wife's a cpa. I was like, that's so fitted. So you're like a celebrity in the eyes of my wife. I was telling her this morning, I was like, I'm talking to Sharon today. She was like, so excited for me. So this should be fun. So, Sharon, the first line of your obituary, chances are good, is going to say enron whistleblower. I would imagine your career, in your mind, is probably marked kind of pre post that moment. So I want to get to pre that moment in a second. But first, what have you been up to since leaving Enron and being on the COVID of Time magazine?

Well, that whistleblower label is just. It's very toxic. When the media were first saying, oh, there's an Enron whistleblower, I had friends say, don't let them call you that. That's rat fink, snitch. You were loyal. You went to Enron's CEO Ken Lay, to try to get him to do the right thing within the company. You were trying to get the company to survive. And then, since then, I get a lot of criticism. How dare you call yourself a whistleblower. You didn't go outside the company, you just blew the whistle inside. So it's just got a lot of negativity. Although that is changing. And I would say in the last two decades, the term whistleblower is really on the cusp of becoming something that says courageous or brave. When you think about the whistleblowers that have been in our government the last year or so, when you think about the whistleblower protections that are now in the law, it's becoming a better term.

Yeah, I think from my perspective, I think it's more of a heroic term term today. And it depends on the situation, it depends on who you ask, but. But what you're telling me is, yeah, 20 years ago, not so much.

No. And there isn't a whistleblower that really continues in their chosen career. And that is an odd thing to explain. And I don't really have my head completely wrapped around it because it's not that a company thinks they're doing the wrong thing and you're going to expose them, it's something else. And it has a little bit to do with potentially that you are more committed to the truth than loyalty, potentially, you know, that there is just some concern. But at any rate, I don't need to understand why. I just know that, you know, corporate America is kind of a closed door for me. However, I'm one of the few whistleblowers that has a fantastic story. I go around the globe speaking about leadership and ethics and, you know, the lessons to be learned from Enron's demise. And so in that regard, I'm very blessed. Yeah.

So you're not like, hiding away, right, like some whistleblowers do. I mean, you've had a legitimate career post, Enron speaking, traveling, talking about these issues.

Well, certainly that is the case. And I don't think other whistleblowers want to hide away. I think they have very limited choices. And in many cases, my memos were found in a box of documents, subpoenaed documents that Enron had sent up to Congress and Congressional committee were the ones that released my memos to the press and released my name to the press. And I was called to testify. And the day before I was to testify, the Congress people showed me a memo and it was dated August 24, 2001. I had met with Ken Lay to warn him of accounting fraud. August 22, 2001. So this memo, you know, it got written pretty quickly. It was from Vincent and Elkins, Enron's outside firm. And it said, per your request, here are the potential consequences to discharging employees who raise accounting concerns. So it floored me that Kenlay looked into firing me so quickly. And I've since found out at other conferences that focus on whistleblowing that the plan of attack is. That's how you shoot the messenger. You fire the person and then you start smearing their reputation, attacking their credibility. This is a disgruntled employee that we had fired. Can't believe whatever they say. So that was quite alarming to me that I came that close to termination and attack. But that attack is what happens to a ton of whistleblowers and their company doesn't implode, it doesn't go bankrupt. And so that smear tactic works.

I want to back up because I think your story that leads up to just your employment and rise through Enron is really important. I talk about this in Master of One and sharing your story. I think the fact that you are a master of your craft is part of what enabled you to be in the room where it happens, if you will.

Right.

So tell us the quick version of your career story pre Enron. Right.

So you went to ut.

Take us from the beginning of your career.

Yeah, I graduated with undergrad, master's in accounting from the University of Texas, you know, hook em Horns and went to work for Arthur Anderson, one of the big eight firms back in the early 80s. Loved it. Spent eight years at Anderson, five years in the Houston office and three years in the New York office. I went to work for a commodity boutique finance outfit in New York. And after about six years in New York I was ready to get back to Texas. And at the time in Houston, Texas, Enron was the place to work. So at that point Enron was audited by Arthur Andersen. So I had some peers and friends that I had known from my Houston days at Anderson that now worked at Enron. So I sent them my resume and they sent my resume around and sure enough I was blessed enough and lucky enough to be hired at Enron.

I mean they were the game.

Oh definitely. They paid the most, they were just. Enron was a fun place to work. You could have a good idea and get a budget approved for it and pursue it. It was very entrepreneurial, very fast paced. It was very enjoyable and fun to work there. But you know, it just takes a few bad apples that saying that a fish rots from the head. You get the wrong leadership in there and things can go south in a hurry. And I feel the same way about Arthur Anderson. In the 80s, Anderson walked away from their savings and loan clients, walked away from clients denied doing their audits because they felt like what had become normal accounting in the savings and loan industry did not represent the financial condition of those savings and loans. So I was so proud to work at Anderson here. They put their principles above money. Then it came out after Enron's demise that in the late 90s Anderson was exploring should we keep Enron as a client? And they concluded that it was a $52 million a year client that would one day be 100 million dollar a year client. So even though it was their riskiest worldwide client, let's just, you know, pay more attention to it. But yeah, we're keeping Enron as a client to their ultimate demise.

Yeah, I mean it's what brought down Anderson, right?

Yes. But I will say that I do give testimony talks at churches and faith based groups. And I've always been drawn to that story of David and Goliath. And everyone thinks about, yeah, the slingshot with the three stones that brings down this giant. But I like the fact that David says, look, I faced a lion, I faced a bear when I was tending the sheep and I took down that bear and that sheep. So what's this giant? You know, Gonna be. He had done the little things. And I even think, I mean, as a parent, if I've got a young son looking after the sheep and he comes back and tells me he faced a lion or a bear and saved the sheep and killed the lion or bear, I'd almost be a little upset, like, let that sheep go. That lion or bear could have turned on you. So we lose one sheep, so what? That's better than you risking yourself. But David was taking risks going that extra mile. And I think that's what Jesus meant. When you know you're faithful with a little, you'll be given more.

We talked about when I was interviewing you for the book, we were talking about going back to this issue of discrediting whistleblowers, right? That one of the things that you guys would do at Enron when people wanted to fire somebody is like, go dig up expense reports because everybody lied on their expense reports. And if you could find something there, it was easy to fire them if you need an excuse. But you were pretty disciplined about that, right? That's one practical example of what you're talking about, right?

There's a saying that character is what you do when no one is looking. And I feel like if you really believe that God is looking, then maybe it's easier to have character. You're not padding your expense report because God is looking down, going, really, really. Isn't that kind of like stealing? So you don't do it. So you just don't do it. And in the end, I think in order to really be courageous or kind of speak truth to power, you can't have those nagging doubts that, oh, what if they find out? Blah, blah, blah. But I do want it temper my comments. People say, how could you be so courageous? That's in hindsight, seeing that Enron didn't listen to me. I spoke to Ken Lay because I was truly optimistic that truth would and the evidence I was presenting to him were going to win the day. I didn't speak to him thinking, you know, oh, I'm really taking a risk all this horrible stuff's going to happen to me. I only thought he would listen. What was waking me up at night was knowing that, you know, I really would only have about 30 minutes. So how was I going to say this in a way that he would listen? Because, hey, I'm one. I was a vice president at the company, but I'm one person walking in saying that Arthur Anderson, this worldwide, highly regarded accounting firm, has done a flawed audit and your accounting and financial executives have committed fraud. And, oh, by the way, Vincent and Elkins, your law firm has blessed some fraudulent structures. That's pretty hard stuff to swallow and believe. So I was waking up concerned with, how can I be believable about this? You know, how can I? What can I put in front of him to get his attention that, oh, Enron has committed accounting fraud.

So how did this all come about, by the way? How did you stumble upon the fraudulent audit? Take us through the process leading up to getting in the room with Ken La.

Well, my discovery of the fraud was very, very typical for fraud detection. I was working in Enron Broadband, and that unit was being disbanded and people were, you know, going hither and thither elsewhere at Enron. And I went back to work for Andy Fastow, the cfo. So I changed positions. I'm the new person, basically, that stumbles across the fraud. And people have used the analogy of that there's an elephant in the room that nobody's wanting to talk about, and their backs are to the elephant and they don't want to turn around and see the elephant in the room. But when the new person walks in the room, they just kind of go, hey, guys, what's this elephant doing in the room? And so that's a little bit it. I stumbled across these hedging transactions that were hedged with these entities called the Raptors. And the math just didn't add up. And when I would meet with people to get explanations on what these structures were, they would talk and talk and explain it and explain it and draw boxes on a chalkboard. And I kept saying, but wait a minute, you know, And I'd add another question, add another question. And finally these people would throw their hands up in the air and say, okay, okay, Sharon, you've worn us down. We don't really understand how it works at all. But supposedly Arthur Anderson has approved it. It must be okay. So stuff wasn't making sense to other people as well, but it wasn't their job. You know, they weren't in the accounting department. They didn't work for Arthur Anderson. So they just comforted themselves that other experts had looked at this. And as Jeff Skilling said famously in front of Congress, I don't know, I'm not an accountant.

You know, in the book, I made this argument that, like, how big was Enron at the time? How many employees?

Well, we had about 10,000 employees in Houston, but tens of thousands worldwide. You know, we operated power plants and pipelines around the globe.

Yeah. And Ken was Ken Style was chairman at the time.

Yes. He had been CEO. And earlier in the year, he had stepped aside and Jeff Skilling had become CEO. And Ken Lay was chairman.

Sure. So Ken lay's chairman of this company with tens of thousands of employees, there's no way you get even 30 minutes on his calendar had you not been in such a senior position.

Right. No, that's true. I had been at the company for eight years, and I was a vice president. Enron had about 300 vice presidents, but I was an executive at the company.

Yeah. So my point is. Right. That mastery puts us in positions of power which are really important. So let's go back to that. Let's go back to your career. We talk a lot in this podcast about. All right. How do you master any particular vocation, whether you're an accountant or a lawyer or an entrepreneur? So for you, or looking back on your career as an accountant, what were the keys to mastering your role that helped you climb the corporate ladder? What do you think you really got right?

Well, certainly I was a smart person with a CPA and worked hard. Good things come to those who put in the work. I do think you do your work, you know, the best that you can. You know that Bible verse that says you work as if you're working for Jesus, But I see that everywhere. We had a yard person in Houston that since passed away, but he treated everyone's yard like it was his own, you know, turning the soil and adding fertilizer and just always amazed me, you know, and he was just such an example of doing your work as if you were doing it for Jesus.

Good things come to those with grit. Right. It's just a lot. It doesn't over time. What did the Enron experience teach you about how our work, you know, even the work of accountants can connect to the work that God wants done in the world?

Well, I love that question. It's very interesting because, you know, I stumbled across the Enron fraud in the summer of 2001. Jeff Skilling quit the company mid August. That's what made me go meet with Ken Lay, figuring he just wasn't aware. Like, I've got the real reason Jeff Skilling quit. You know, I meet with Ken Lay August 22nd. I was very concerned that Enron had committed fraud. And so I already had dusted off my resume and I was interviewing with some of Enron's peer group.

Before you met with Ken?

Yes, because I said, I can't work at a company that's cooking the books like this. Yeah, yeah, I'm trying to get it corrected. But at the same time I was trying to leave the company and I was the primary breadwinner for my family, but I wanted out of, of Enron. Well, 9, 11 happened. You know, the Twin towers and the Pentagon are attacked almost immediately. We had anthrax scares. I really sat back and thought, wow, you know, if I get a new vice president job at one of these other companies, I'm going to have to reprove myself. I'm going to be nose to the grindstone, you know, working hard to reestablish my career at a new place. And I really felt kind of guilty, like, what's my life about and shouldn't I be doing something for God and doing more charity work or not for profit work? And I went to meet with Carl Hamilton. He was one of our associate pastors at First Presbyterian in Houston. And he gave me some great advice. He said, sharon, you've kind of got it all wrong. God doesn't really need you to do anything for him. He's blessed you with some skills because he needs disciples in the workplace. I told him the whole Enron story, you know, so he was in. He knew the inside story before everyone else did. He said, clearly you've been placed in these positions because you are meant to bring salt and light, you know, into these situations. So he also gave me some advice that if you are feeling that guilty, naggy feeling, you know, maybe it's because you just need to grow closer to God. You know, what are you doing with Bible studies and what are you doing with. Just various. He asked me various things. I must have looked at him like, are you crazy? I've got a two year old at home, I'm working, you know, he just said, look, start slow. There's this wonderful professional women's fellowship group. It's working women. They work downtown, they meet once a month for lunch and you're going to hear a godly message, join that group. And that'd be a step in the right direction for sort of addressing that guilty feeling you've got that you're not doing enough for God. It was amazing how much blessing I got from that. I don't know if you know this story or not. Enron had declared bankruptcy. I won't go into why. I was still able to work for the bankruptcy estate. That's a whole nother story. But I was still trying to figure out, I was only assured, like one more month's worth of work. And I was trying to figure out what am I going to do next, you know, because Enron's demise had really hurt all of Enron's peer group. Everyone was laying off and concerned about, you know, what was next. And it was mid January on a Monday that Congress released my memos to the press and my phone started ringing off the hook. And, you know, Enron was already bankrupt. You know, my warnings had been too little, too late. And for me, I kind of felt like, okay, I warned Ken Lay. He didn't quite do the right thing. You know, that's pretty much all I can do. Well, so Congress releases my memos and I mean, there's camera people out in front of the house. It's all just so alarming. That Tuesday morning, you know, as I was getting ready to go into the office, Rick, my husband, said, came into the bathroom to say, hey, there's camera crews in the front and the back of the house. And it really unnerved me.

You knew it was for you, right?

No, that, yes. They were just standing there all camped out in the front yard, camped out in the back alley where our garage is. And it made me incredibly nervous. And this is where I do believe in angels helping you out with things because I opened up a Bible that was sitting on a bookshelf and just literally opened it up and it opened to Hebrews 12. Now if you think about your Bible, Hebrews is way near the back. So usually books open up kind of in the middle and this book opened up just randomly to Hebrews 12. So I don't think it's so random. But Hebrews 12:1 3 is a really encouraging passage, you know, therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, throw off the sin, the burden that so readily entangles. Keep your eye focused on Jesus, the perfecter of your faith, you know, who denied the shame of the cross and kept going. So you keep your eye focused on him and keep going. It's a real buck up passage. And so I made it into the office and by chance, it was a professional women's fellowship lunch. Now I had just met with Carl in September, and so I had met with him in September. I had just started doing PWF lunches in October or November, three months before that. So this is like my fourth lunch. And I'm sitting there at one of these round tables near the back, and the speaker gets up and she opens with the same three verses, Hebrews 12:1 3. And it really, I mean, I started to cry. And I'm not a crier. I felt like, oh, wow, God is really maybe telling me there's more to come. And sure enough, there was. You know, I was called to testify in front of two congressional committees. Just talked with others under oath behind closed doors. There was so much and my warnings were too little, too late to save Enron. But it did kind of mark a prosecutional trail. And the Department of Justice was able to get over 24 Enron executives convicted of felonies of white collar crime.

You said when we talked for the book, I'm going to quote you directly. I think this ended up making it into the book. You know, so many companies don't end up like Enron because they're faith filled believers in position of power within these firms, working to keep them on the right path. I just think that's really beautiful. So like now looking back, when you're talking to other people who, you know, they're not spotting fraud today at their jobs and hopefully they never will, but what do you encourage them with about the eternal significance of their work even if they're not in quote unquote, full time ministry?

I do encourage everyone to speak up if something is bothering you about a transaction, about sort of a cultural shift of the organization. Talk amongst your peers and colleagues. More than likely other people feel the same way, speak up. And the beauty of that is hopefully the company rights itself and you don't really walk around for the rest of your life going, well, thank goodness I did that because I saved the company from bankruptcy. Because you don't really measure the disaster that you averted. You know, it's one of those things where I think when you get to heaven, it will be, hey, remember that little time back in whatever year when you said, when you alerted your company to this or that problem, you know, you ended up saving a lot of jobs and saving the company, but you just didn't know it.

How old were you when this all happened back in 2001? 2002.

42.

So you're 42. There's this like cataclysmic event in your career and for you at 42, it's like, oh man, there's this huge moment. You're on the COVID of Time magazine. I'm just curious what that did to you mentally, psychologically and how your faith was a guide to, yeah, you might not do something as high profile as this, but you still have a lot of purpose in this world.

Yes. Gosh, I wish I had the answer to that because in many respects it was a watershed moment for me and I do believe that I triggered the biblical promise in Matthew 25, you know, where each of us are given talents, and for those that took a risk with those talents, and really just that took a risk, put them at risk. You know, Jesus says, come and share the Master's happiness. And so, so much spiritually has opened up for me. I would say my goal is to walk this earth like Jesus, not really worried about how the bills are going to be paid or what's what. And I, I can tell you so many stories. I do make a living giving speeches, but you can't count on that. You don't know when that's going to happen. You know, I still had mortgages to pay for and bills to pay. There have been some incredible times where I'm thinking we might miss a payment or you missed two mortgage payments, but you got to catch up in the third month or else they're going to foreclose and something miraculous will happen. And, you know, the Lord just proves I don't need to worry about all this stuff. And then also, just many. I got involved with a transformational prayer ministry. I was prayed for, and then I also became a prayer facilitator. And I've seen so much mystical prayer that really saves people and changes the direction of their life that I'd like to do more of that. And I'm wondering how, right before we.

Start recording, we were talking about the book, and I was telling you how people really love your story in Master of One, and you were saying that you really love the story of my friend Christy Adams, who comes right after you in the book, who's been on the podcast. And the story I told in the book, as you know, is you being a master of your craft. Craft put you in, quote, unquote, the room where it happens in a corporate boardroom, this room that just exudes obvious power. My friend Christy Adams, on the other hand, her power is seen in a much smaller, much more obscure and seemingly on the surface, unimportant room. She would teach immigrants English in an apartment complex in Gainesville, Georgia. I'd love for you to encourage our listeners who aren't VPs at massive companies about the good they're doing in the world and how their work is connecting to God's work in the world.

I loved Christie's story because that apartment complex where she taught people English and had such a love and a heart for the immigrant community. She has no idea the generations of people. She has put on a different trajectory in life because she helped them learn English. So it's just so incredible. And I think that's really sometimes the more important work in service to others. As I mentioned, my warnings were too little too late, but it helped mark a prosecutional trail. So folks that were victims feel there was a sense of justice and new laws were written. So hopefully investors and shareholders aren't taking advantage of like that again. But the people that I might have helped with my Enron whistleblowing are sort of nameless, faceless investors and shareholders. While Christy was able to truly help people that she herself was face to face with, and then that in turn they're helping their children and so forth, I was concerned about maybe what am I doing next, what's my influence? And I was going into the Vance prison unit in Houston every week with another team member and we were praying for prisoners one on one with this transformational prayer ministry. And it's very mystical and it's, it's got some steps you follow. You're not just randomly, let's just pray together. You're doing something that's a little bit like therapy. And there was an 80 man wait list for this prayer service because their fellow prisoners saw how it changed that person. I remember sort of asking God once, kind of like, what next? Or, you know, I don't feel like I'm really doing anything. I'm back to the same, you know, doing something for God. And I just heard a gentle whisper saying, you're helping this prisoner right here in front of you. You're helping this inmate. Really, sometimes we just want to look for something big when really we, you know, what's right in front of us is an opportunity.

Yeah, I think you put it really well. You're just trying to walk like Jesus walked, trying to apprentice under Jesus Christ. And we, we can do that regardless of where we are in the world. In a boardroom, an apartment complex, in a prison. That's a really beautiful testimony. Hey, Sharon. So, three questions we love to wrap up every conversation with. Number one. I'm really curious which books you tend to recommend or give away most frequently to others.

The one I'd like to give away is really old. It's over 100 years old. It's the Christian Secret to a Happy Life by Hannah Woodall Smith.

I've never heard of this.

It's very good. The first four chapters are like an executive summary. And then you've got two other parts that I think are very helpful for folks that have kind of grown up in the church almost, you know, and you just feel like, you know, I think she starts off the book with a question from someone who's not a believer, like, why would I want to join your faith? Y' all all seem so miserable.

Yeah. Yeah.

So anyway, that is a book I like, but terms of just, you know, societal stuff. I like a book by Katherine Schultz. S C H U L Z, no T in there. It's a 10 year old book called Being Wrong. And it goes through the fact that it's so hard for us to be wrong, to admit we were wrong. And it's. I like Brene Brown. Everyone reads Gift of Imperfection and Daring Strongly and all those. And she talks about shame, but doesn't really get down to why do we feel shame or how do we get around this. I like this author because she goes into the fact of how emotional being wrong can be. It's almost like the saying of how you have to take a risk to be loved, and to love, you have to take a risk to be wrong. It's a very good book and a very good read, and that's what I'm recommending these days.

That sounds really good. Yeah, I'll have to check that out. Who would you most like to hear talk about how their faith influences their work? Maybe on this podcast?

I'd like to hear Darren Roberts. He's a professor at the University of Texas. He went to Harvard Law School, coached some at the NFL. He mentors a lot of athletes, UT football players and others. He has five kids, goes around the globe speaking on his course at ut. What's your game plan for living? I'd like to hear him talk more of his faith and how he brings his faith to his workplace.

That's a great answer. I'm not familiar with Darren. I'll have to look him up. All right. One more piece of advice that you'd like to leave this audience of people who, like you, are just trying to do good work for the glory of God and the good of others.

I think overall it's what Billy Graham said that near the end of his life that he regretted not spending more time in prayer. I've often thought about that one little verse in Luke where right before Jesus picked his 12 disciples, he went out to the hills and prayed all night. So I think it takes a lot of quiet time with God to really walk your purpose.

Did you have that perspective in the midst of this Enron debacle? Did you have silence and solitude in your life because your child was really young then? I don't know. Did you have stillness and quietness back then?

In this world, I think we have to fight hard for stillness and quietness. And this COVID 19 maybe it's God saying, hey, stay inside, be still, be quiet. And let me tell you a few things.

Yeah, it's tough. You gotta fight for it for sure. Sharon, I want to thank you for the important redemptive work you've done pre, during and post Enron and just work that glorifies our great God. Thank you for pursuing mastery of your craft and allowing the Lord to put you in positions of power to be used for his purposes. Where can people learn more about you today? Can you be found online somewhere?

Oh, my goodness. That's the subject of another whole podcast.

Oh, that's right. I forgot we talked about this via email. The weird website out there.

I still have some odd enemies. My Wikipedia page gets degraded.

There's like a fake Sharonwalkins.com, right?

Well, that. Luckily that website has been taken down, but I still don't have it back. So that is something I have let myself. You know, it feels kind of brag ocean to try to. Oh, I need to get my website in order and my Wikipedia page in order.

Yeah, no, I get it.

Yeah. So it's kind of hard to find me.

I was gonna say you're really hard. Are you discoverable? Are you on LinkedIn?

I'm on LinkedIn. I do have a little bit a very outdated website@sharon Watkins.com and there's a contact me page that's got my email so people can find me. They just have to work hard at it.

I love it. I think that's how we found you. Well, Sharon, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast day. We really appreciate it.

Well, thank you, Jordan. And tell your wife hello and I'll have to meet her face to face one day.

Absolutely. By the way, if you want to read even more of Sharon's story, make sure to pick up a copy of Master of One, my book, Shameless Plug. But seriously, so many of you guys have wrote me and mentioned how impactful Sharon's story has been in your life. So I hope you guys enjoyed hearing more from her today. Hey, thank you guys so much for listening to the Call to Mastery. I'll see you next week.