Sho Baraka (Hip-Hop Artist)

The episode you're about to listen to was released back when the Mere Christians podcast was called the Call to Mastery. Now, if you love Mere Christians, you're still going to love these older episodes because the majority of each conversation focuses on how the gospel influences the work of our guests. With that disclaimer out of the way, please enjoy the episode. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I'm Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. Every week, I host a conversation with a Christ follower who's pursuing world class mastery of their craft. We talk about their path to mastery, their daily habits, and how their faith influences their work. Today's guest is Sho Baraka. He is a world renowned hip hop artist who's hit the number one Billboard gospel charts and top 10 on the Billboard rap charts, transcending the quote unquote Christian music and mainstream rap markets. I recently read Sho's first book titled He Saw that It was Good. I thought it was exceptional and had to have him on the show. So Sho and I recently sat down. We talked about Waffle House and our shared love of Waffle House at Good work by the good people there. We talked about what we can learn from studying the work of those outside of our industries. So for Sho, that's Dave Chappelle. For me, surprise, surprise, that's Taylor Swift. We talked about why Sho and I delete and reinstall Instagram on a daily basis. And we talked about what Negro spirituals can teach us about how to create for the kingdom of God. Please enjoy this conversation with my new friend, Sho Baraka. Hey, Sho, thanks for being here.

Oh, man, Jordan, it's a pleasure to have this conversation with you.

I knew I was gonna love hanging out with you when I read in your book you defending Waffle House and.

Saying the Waffle House, let's do it. Jordan, we should have this meeting over some waffles, bro.

Next time I'm in Atlanta, we'll do part two of this episode at a Waffle House. So a few years ago, I took my four year old to Atlanta for her fourth birthday. Man, we did everything. We went to the aquarium. I took her to a nice restaurant for dinner, booked a nice hotel. You know what she remembers?

Of course. The one thing she should, she's like, forget these beluga whales and these seals that do amazing things that humans can't even do. You know what the most memorable thing is? These amazing waffles that look like they were cooked in the bathroom.

That chocolate chip waffle is. That's what she remembers. Hey, so I told you before we start recording, I loved you. He saw that. It was good. Such a great book. And one of the things you hit on within this vein of professional journey and discovery is something I talk a lot about, right? This idea of prioritizing the needs of others or your giftedness over desire or your passions. Right. Can you talk a little bit about your perspective on this?

Yeah, it could be controversial depending on what spaces you're in. I just did a workshop with a bunch of wonderful people. And one of the. And I'm not gonna say the name of the assessment we went through, but one of the assessments we went through emphasize, like, passion and gifts. And though I think that's fine, I just find it somewhat disturbing. I've had multiple opportunities to speak to groups of people, colleges around work, faith and justice and the intersection of those things. And oftentimes what I say is that language that we use can be very poetic and it can be very inspiring, but it's oftentimes elitist because everybody doesn't have the opportunity to just say, I just want to do what I'm good at. Some people have to do a couple things. One, they have to follow the need that is around them because they have families they have to take care of. They have certain things that restrict them from chasing after their particular passion. And the other thing is that God is oftentimes, I don't see in the scriptures, and I wrote about this in a book, that people had the luxury of just doing what they wanted to do. You know, God often called people to do things that they weren't as comfortable with. But his primary concern wasn't that they felt comfortable or gifted because he supplied those in that deficiency, if you will, and he gave them the opportunity to serve even in their lack of skill set. And he filled the void. You know, whether we're talking about Gideon or we're talking about Daniel, these are people, he gave them opportunity to excel in spaces and kind of, you know, be. Become masters when they were amateurs, if you will.

Yeah, totally. You're bringing up a good point, right? This focus on. I call it the passion strategy, right? Like follow your passions, follow your dreams. Not only is it a very privileged mindset, but it's also wholly self serving, right? Like it assumes that the purpose of work is to make me happy. And the gospel flips that on its head. It's like, no, the purpose of work is the extension of the kingdom which is at its core, serving other people. Right? So go do work that serves your family well, that serves your community well, that serves the world well. So I'm curious for you, you chose music artistry. Was that a choice of desire, of need, both? What's that journey look like for you?

I've vacillated between places of where I've chosen that space because I wanted to be there. And then there were times where I was like, you know what? I have to get a 9 to 5 that I don't want to do because I need to provide for my family. I made some decisions after my second album to leave my label. And I didn't think it all the way through. Jordan. It wasn't the wisest decision at the time, but it was my conviction and I still think I made the right decision. The concerts, the speaking engagements kind of dried up because I didn't think through. I had this machine behind me that was getting me opportunities. I didn't have people who can handle my inquiries and outquiries. And so quickly, quickly I realized, oh, I need way more than just me and a friend handling all these, I guess, my career. And I mismanaged a lot of myself and my direction. And so eventually I said, I have to, I need a job because I can't sit here and just expect people to be knocking my door down. I got to figure out three months from now how I'm going to provide for my family, how I'm going to pay for, you know, mortgage and all these other things. And that's at the core of that is what I think a calling is. You know what I mean? You are called to do a couple of things. You are called to walk humbly with your Lord, to do justice, to serve people. And where there is need, Christ says, the harvest is plentiful, the workers are few. I think to your point, when you have this selfish or this self important kind of calling structure, it's easy for you to forsake the need for your own personal interest. And it gives us excuses on how to escape what God calls us to that's immediately in front of us. But there were times where the Lord was very gracious and gave me ample opportunities to chase after the things that I guess I was gifted at. But here's the other thing. Even if I'm gifted in those things, that gift is not given for my own benefit. It's given so that I can, to your point, build the kingdom, serve other people. What does it look like to use my gifting to help People either see themselves as manipulating their authority in the palace or helping people who are outside the palace who are marginalized. You know what I'm saying? So this is how I viewed calling. This is how I viewed gifting. This is how I view passion. And the other thing we have to understand is that God places us in positions for a reason. Like, you were born in America. You grew up in a particular tax bracket. You play particular sports, you participate in particular clubs, and he shaped you for that. And I'll get to this story real quick. And I'll shut up because I love to hear myself talk about. I know.

This is great. Now, please.

You know, I got married in 2003, so I'm becoming an old man. I'm starting to.

You're a veteran. A veteran.

A veteran, yeah. Starting to be a vet. But before I got married, I worked for four years in what is, you know, known as a mental health facility. And I worked with a lot of adults who were either on the spectrum. However, I spent four years working there. And it's interesting. I never thought that working there with these types of individuals would help shape me to be four or five years later when I had a child on the autism spectrum, to be able to understand how to manage particular behaviors that were abnormal to most people, to deal with particular stimulating behaviors and idiosyncrasies that look like they're strange in public. The Lord put me in a position before I even had any kind of wherewithal to understand, oh, this is going to benefit me in the future. Moses is the same way. Joseph is the same way. There's so many people in the scriptures where God prepares them for something that is coming in the future for his own purpose and flourishing of the kingdom and those around Him.

Amen. So if you're listening right now and you hate your job, what would you say to that person?

It's okay to hate your job, but I would say, get over it is a little hard. We're humans. We're humans. The one thing I don't love about the Christian culture that we exist in is this veneer that we can't be discontent or be, you know, that we.

That we can't lament and be upset.

Yeah, exactly. Like, lament is real, even when it comes off as selfish, man. Like, tell the Lord how you feel. Because I think in that supplication, in that grieving, like, there's healing in that communication to not only God, but to other people, that's healing. So, yeah, wake up in the morning and be Like, I don't want to work here. But then what you do is you. Hopefully this book and other books like it help you understand. Like, God hovered over the void, and he had this opportunity to create, and he did create something beautiful from nothing. And what I like to communicate, as I communicate in this book, is that every morning we're waking up in Genesis 1 with a void, that we have an opportunity to walk into our particular spaces and create something beautiful. And hopefully when you leave that day, you can be like, yo, it was good. And I don't think we see that as a mission field in the sense of not just having Bible studies with people or trying to slip in, you know, a scripture in front of the water cooler when you're, you know, copying papers. But, like, literally, the work and how you contribute is worship unto the Lord. And as you're worshiping unto the Lord, how are you creating? How are you cultivating Genesis 1:26 20? How are you cultivating a new Eden, if you will? Because, you know, it's beautiful. Like, there's two gardens. You have the Garden of Eden, and you have the Garden of Gethsemane. And I view those like, we'll probably never go back to the Garden of Eden. But what's beautiful about the Garden of Gethsemane is on this side of heaven, we won't go back to the Garden of Garden Eden. But what's beautiful about the Garden of Gethsemane is that it's a garden. So you can imagine it's beautiful, but there's suffering there, right? Jesus is lamenting, but at the end, he comes to this conclusion that it is good like it is. So because you have ordained this to happen. And in the same sense, like, every day we're in the Garden of Gethsemane, we're looking around like, Lord, though my enemies want to strike me down, though there's pain and suffering around me, I must go to my cross for the benefit of other people.

Well said. Very well said. So I want to talk about how you've mastered your craft. And one of the things you talked about in the book is this importance of learning the stories that have already been told right before you write your own. And I think. I think that's true of any vocation. We hear that from a lot of our guests, right? If you're starting a business, you got to study your market and what others have done before you. If you're a writer or an artist like you and me, you got to know your genre well. So I'm Curious for you, what is learning the stories that have already been told look like for you and your craft?

Well, Jordan, for me, it's a little easier because I'm just a born genius savant. You know, I.

This came naturally for sure.

This is very natural. It just came out the wound. Quoting Shakespeare, Morrison. No, I think arrogance and pride makes for terrible artists. I think you have to love luminaries of the past because it humbles you, but hopefully it doesn't paralyze you, because what it did for me for a while was it made me think I can never be that. And so it intimidated me to the point where I didn't actually contribute. I didn't want to write because of the great writers that I love, from C.S. lewis to Hemingway to Toni Morrison as a. And Zora Neale Hurston. And it's like, these people are wonderful at what they do. I'll never be that. But then what you do is you realize you develop and you mature your own voice. There's a maturation process in you. And what you do is you. You appreciate history so that you can learn how to progress and towards the future. And for me, it is being. Having a humble disposition, saying, you know, just. But also not being humble to the point where. Or humiliating myself to the point where I feel like I'm worthless. I got to a point where I got enough affirmation for not only just friends, but people who were professionals, people who were connoisseurs of this particular class. And where I got to believe is like, well, maybe I am good. Maybe I'm good enough to actually pursue this. And the more you kind of believe in yourself, I think the more you begin to trust that you can read as much. You can appreciate much of the past, but you can still develop your own voice and find yourself in the present and in the future. And so I'm constantly trying to learn from the past. I am constantly time traveling, as I like to communicate. I time travel, but I also love to be in the present and see what other people are doing. Not to allow it to affect me and affect me in a sense that it influences my work, but allow it to keep it. It's almost like a plumb line. It's a metric for is my work speaking? Is it relevant? Not am I constantly being present? But is when I speak, is it. Are people listening?

Yeah. Who are you studying right now? Like contemporaries? Who are you watching? Maybe inside and outside of your genre? Be like, oh, man. Yeah. Like, that's who I want to emulate in that way.

Oh, good question. Well, musicians, there's a few musicians that I love and comedians, because I feel like comedians and artists and writers. There's this kindred about how you communicate particular ideas that disarm people totally. And it allows you to communicate an idea that the person may be offended by, but it gets them to think and process through it. And so a couple of people that I love on the comedian side is obviously Dave Chappelle. Dave Chappelle is like, you know, one of my faves. I love Nate Bargazzi. He's another guy who. He's a new guy that I've kind of come into. He's.

He's a genius.

Oh yeah.

Like his comedy. Super smart. Yeah, like. Like Chappelle. I mean, Chappelle's wicked smart.

Yeah. And I love how they have different approaches. I think, you know, Bargazi is very dehumanizing. He's self deprecating. But you can't be that talented and be in the self deprecating. Be like real. Like there's a bit of savant there that you have to acknowledge.

Wait, so hang on a second. This is interesting to me because you're a hip hop artist, but you study comedians, you study outside of your lane. Right. I'm sure you studied musicians too, but like, what's the value to you in studying in these kind of tangential crafts?

So I'm going to throw somebody else out there that I don't want. You. There's a, there's a. There's another comedian who I. I think I'm trying to choose my words carefully. Technically, I think he's brilliant, his content is horrible. But Anthony Jeselnik is another one. And the reason. And to answer your question, all three of those individuals that I brought up, I think the ability to. The delivery one, delivering the unexpected. Because a good comedian, what they do is you think you're going in one direction and they hit you with something else and you're like. And what happens is you have now your peripheral. Like you're having to watch all around you, if that makes sense. I'm just trying to visually set a set, kind of like a picture here. Because now what you always thought was directly in front of you is almost like a veneer, it's a facade. And so now what you're having to do is to. You're always on your feet. Like, what is he communicating? What are they actually saying? And I love that about my music. At least I tried to do that about my music. On the surface, you think it's about this. But the people who really are fans of mine, they understand it's a deeper truth. There's a deeper idea that I'm trying to communicate. And there's ways of me communicating funny, humorous, bringing levity to it, but also bringing some serious truth with levity that will get people to say, hmm. I mean, I don't necessarily agree with it, but it's an interesting proposition. And comedians, honestly, another reason just, if we can just be real blunt, I just think comedians have a bravery about, you know, about their art that they're not afraid. Like, I think the way that our society is now, I think it's good that we are challenging people. I think it's good that people are somewhat on edge about what they should say in public, because I think that's helpful to a degree. But also I think there's an overreach a lot of times when it comes to like, canceling people, especially cancel people without an expectation of, like, grace and reintegrating back into society once they've learned, I guess, whatever from their mistakes. And comedians, I think, think are some of the last people who just don't give a bleep. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. They're just like, yeah, I'm gonna say it. And if you don't like it, just don't come to my shows.

There's so much wisdom here about studying outside of your discipline, right? Like, I think whether you're an entrepreneur or a marketer, whatever, looking outside your immediate industry, it's just making those creative connections, right? So for you, it's comedians. For me, like, I write full length nonfiction, but I love studying television writing. Right? Like, I'm a student of Aaron Sorkins of Social Network, West Wing, Moneyball. I love my listeners know this. I love studying Taylor Swift, like, like she's a genius. She's the best brand manager on earth, right? Like, yeah, I love studying that business. And I learn things that I integrate into this craft by studying that. Right. So, all right, so beyond citing comedians, what else do you do to put more weight on the bar as an artist? Like, how do you. You talked about complacency in the book, right? Like, how do you avoid becoming complacent in your craft?

I don't know if this is healthy, but I think there's a couple things that helped me from becoming complacent. Is one, I have friends who are successful in different areas of life. And though I won't say you should never measure yourself in comparison to other people, it's good to put yourself in a winner's circle, if that makes sense. Not that winning should be necessarily money or economic status, but people who are trying their best to strive towards the good call that God has put in front of them while being true to, you know, not only their vocation, their craft, but to their God, to their family and to their friends and to their church. And when I put myself around those folks, it's hard to be complacent, like, because they'll be like, hey, show you. You know what's happening, brother? Like, you know, talk to me. What you doing? You know, when somebody's like, hey, so you know, when they do the. So, you know, that means, like, you.

You ain't doing.

You need to get off your butt, do something.

That's good. No, that's good. It's just showing you what's possible. Right? Like, it's not about beating. It's not competitive pride, as Lewis talked about. Mere Christianity.

Right, Exactly.

It's. No, I'm surrounding myself with quote, unquote, winners because I want to know what's possible in my craft. Right?

Like, absolutely.

That's smart.

And those folks also know how to lose. Like, they know how to lose well. And so when you say winner circle, when I say winner circle, it's not just W's, it's how do you play the game in a way that when we lose, we know how to lose well. We know how to win well. And oftentimes, like I say, like, losing is dying on the. Or winning sometimes is dying on the cross. And just to go back to digress a little bit about, you know, outside your discipline, like, I think the MTV VH1 kind of like, society has made it more acceptable for people to admit that they can look outside of their craft and go to people who. It may have been weird to be like, you know what? Taylor Swift is definitely an inspiration to me. One of my favorite artists, and I was gonna say this after I talked about comedians, one of my favorite artists is John Mayer. I think John Mayer is genius. And, you know, you'll find a lot of hip hop artists now who will admit that, but maybe six, seven years ago. No, you. You talking about the guy who weren't.

You weren't gonna find Lecrae in show at a John Mayer show.

Yeah, right, right. And if you did, we were gonna have make sure it was, like, really incognito. And so John Mayer is a genius in the same sense. I love how he writes, I love how he evolves, how he's made like he has three different characters. It's like he's just. He's not content with just being. Your body is Wonderland. You know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Continuum is probably one of the greatest albums ever. But he's like, you know what? I'm not gonna be enslaved to Continuum. You know, I am going to evolve and to make different types of music. And if you don't like it, then I don't know what to tell you. But this is who I am. This is me. You know, for me, it's just this internal drive as well as the people I put around me that says, shaw, you can be great. Like, you can do this. Like, go ahead and write your mere Christianity and your great divorce. You know, go ahead and write your beloved and your. Their eyes will watch you.

So, yeah, I love that. I'm always curious about the routines and daily habits of really productive people. So I'm curious what your day looks like. Like, from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to bed. Typical day for show. What's that look like?

I don't know if I would call myself. I don't think I'm productive in the context. Oh, you're putting out a lot of art.

Yeah, you're putting out some art.

You know, it's funny. I put out in bunches, I put out in bundles. I am definitely, when it comes to motivation, I am an artist, I guess you could say the stereotypical artist, in a sense that I don't force myself to make. And I think, honestly, if I had my way, I would force other artists to rest and just be quiet and live. Be in the valley. Like, find contentment in the valley. Because in the valley is where you live. We're so constantly trying to climb the mountain as it's been clearly communicated. Nothing lives on top of the mountains. And what we want to do is we want to stay there because we want everybody to see us and our achievements. They want us to see our mastery of this particular thing. But at some point, once you master, you have to go back into discipleship, into learning, and to craftsmanship. And I. And I feel like we want to spend too much time in mastership and not enough time in development. And for me, so I think it's been at least three to four years in between all of my album releases is because I feel like that's the time period in which I. I'm creating content. Like, for me to be able to say, you know what? Now I'm ready to present this to the world. And so this book has really, you know, I really wanted to write fiction. Like I wanted my first book to be a novel. And I actually started writing a novel.

Interesting.

And then when my agent came to me and was like, yeah, I don't know if your first book should be a novel, especially if you're going to be working within a Christian space. And so I thought about it and I thought that was wise insight. And so it was. It's been close to a, I want to say a three year process to this point now to, you know, me delivering nonfiction. But for those listeners, there are pieces of fiction in the book because I just really, I wanted to give the reader a taste of what I think they can expect from me in the future moving forward.

I love that you said in the book, I want to read the quote you said. I don't want to be a person who knows everything but understands nothing, who is constantly talking and hardly reflecting. So I'm curious, what habits do you have in place to like, stop talking. Right. Stop listening, even stop intaking noise and just reflect. What is reflection and understanding look like for you?

That's great. Silence is beautiful at times. And there is, you know, the Sabbath rest respite retreat is necessary for Christian development. It's a spiritual discipline, if you will. Then we talk about reading your Bible, memorizing scripture. But God has commanded us to rest as well, to be still and know.

That he is God.

Yeah. And what I do is I just, I'll go on social media sabbaticals for months at a time. I'll just shut it down. I delete them off my phone. I'll check it only if, like, just to see if like, direct messages or if people are trying to reach me. But I won't go on my timelines. I won't peruse like the explore pages. I'll just check to see if somebody sent me a message and they, they want to connect and then I'm off. And that keeps me sane in a lot of ways. But also I have a family. And if you, you know, I have children, that's almost like a default kind of silencer, because if you want your children to be socially inept in this world, you gotta talk to them or socially engaging in this world. You have to talk to them, you have to spend time with them. And so I am at a place where I know it's hard for me because I love attention, I love praise, I love to be applauded. And so when I say it's a spiritual Discipline. For me, I truly mean it. Some people, it's not as hard of a discipline for them. They can just shut it down. Some people, like my wife, she has zero social media. And so for her, it's, maybe you should get on social media. Maybe you shouldn't. Maybe you should talk to people.

No, but it's so hard. And listen, these social media companies are so powerful. They're so well funded, they're so sophisticated. It's interesting you talked about the sabbatical and kind of deleting and reinstalling Instagram from your phone. I've started doing this on a daily basis. So I. And it sounds crazy to people when I describe it. But every day, when I'm done checking my email, I download Instagram, I post one story, and then I delete the app. Like, I respond to my direct messages. I delete them because I'm too weak. I can handle the temptation, right? Like, and I don't know, the Lord graciously just revealed that to me. I'm like, all right, I gotta wrestle this thing to the ground if I want silent reflection. By the way, you. You said this. I want to read another line for the book. Sorry, I'm quoting you to you. I just love the book so much.

You said.

Because I think this is tied to this idea of reflection. You said, quote, when a truth becomes inconvenient, what you do next is what reveals your character. End quote. And I thought that was one of the best quotes of the book. So good, so true. But I find it's really easy to rush past inconvenient truths when our world is filled with noise and we never stop to reflect. Like, are those ideas connected in your mind?

Yep, they're absolutely connected. They're absolutely connected. There's diversion for different people. I. I think it's how it connects to me is, like, I know I have many friends. When the world is burning down, say, whether it be, you know, Covid, racial injustice, there's enough entertainment out there to just get us to ignore. Like, to just say, I don't. I don't have to deal with this. Right? You suppress whatever emotion and feeling you have. And my wife would not have a problem with me sharing this. When Covid first started, you know, it was all fun and games because it's like, oh, yeah, hey, we get to spend time together as a family, and we, you know, just hang around and we'll find all the fun activities. We'll, you know, create all kinds of art together in the house. We'll do all These family activities. Literally, you know, three weeks into it, I think my wife was on the verge of a mental breakdown because she just didn't know how to deal with, like, the reality of the situation. We had to just figure out, like, what do we need to do in order to bring you sanity and comfort? Oftentimes when you don't address the situation and you say, look, like, this is real, like, this is scary, and I want to face it, what you do is you try to find, you know, I guess you can say distractions. And social media is one of the greatest distractions there is. I often feel like silence and retreating is one of the best tools in order to get us to deal with the truth. Because now we have to deal with our own thoughts.

Yes.

We have to be in our own head, and we're not constantly just hearing noise around us and moving within this crowded loneliness, because that's all it is. It's really not like you can speak and you can shout, but the reality is no one's really listened to one another. It's just a bunch of people just shouting at each other. And sometimes they are tweeting or posting at one another. And the intentions may not be, like, harmful or vile, but the reality is, are we really listening to one another? No, we're just trying to impress one. Like, really? It's just like, oh, I got a tweet for. You know, I got a tweet for. I got a tweet. Well, I got a post. I got an Instagram post for you. And it's just like, well, I got this curated life that I want to, like, throw in front of your face on Instagram and let you know that I'm doing wonderful. When all reality I am in. I am depressed, I am miserable. I hate my life right now. I hate my spouse. I hate my job. I don't even know why I'm living. Like, how do you retreat to actually deal with that? And there's so many influencers who are in pain, who are struggling because of this pressure they feel to have to perform constantly. Like, they're always on the stage. And I think, you know, the other thing, to go back to Dave Chappelle, on one of his comedy shows, he talks about how all this information, this constant barrage of noise and information is not helpful, because when he was a child and you and I probably close in age, I'm not sure, but the Space Challenger blew up. That was something extremely traumatic for the world to witness. And, like, you're in school, the TVs are on and you're watching this thing explode and you're like, wow, like, this is bad. But social media has now created this space where, as he says, the space challenger blows up every day. And so now we're becoming desensitized almost to pain. We're lacking empathy on a daily basis. And what happens is when you're constantly trying to jockey for space about pain, oppression and violence, it's like, well, let me find out how to sensationalize the information that I'm trying to put out there in order so that I can get the most views and likes and retweets. And now what we have are people who are just say, oh, there's a shooting. I'll just pass by that. Oh, you know, space challenger. Oh, I'll just pass through that. Oh, I'll just pass through that. And it's just like, no, like, what is wrong with. Like, we're at a place where there's just so much information that this is where I think it's dangerous because I don't know if we're growing callous to people who we should care about, not just people who think like us, not just people who look like us, but humanity as a whole. Like now it's like every day the world is blowing up and it's almost too much to handle.

If we don't have silence, we can't reflect on that darkness exactly. Like, we can't let the spirit move in us. We can't hear the spirit moving in us to convict us of these inconvenient truths that we need to wrestle with and fight to redeem. Right. So show the title of the book is He Saw that It was Good. And of course, this comes from Genesis 1. I'm curious, what does Genesis 1 and 2 mean to you as an artist?

Yeah, I think there's been within, you know, Christian culture, Christian movements, especially in the evangelical space. We operate, I guess you could say, in these hobby horses. You go from missions to discipleship to church planning to, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And there are particular things that are really important for four or five year period. I do feel like Genesis 1, the image of God, is one of those movements we're in. So people have talked about it. Agnosium. The one thing I feel like there hasn't been a lot of, I guess you can say observation about especially in particular spaces in, in Christian culture is one the importance of how creation is a part of the gospel. Our creating, our cultivating is a part of God's plan. Of redemption with Jesus, it's like if he's redeeming our relationship, he's redeeming our relationship with others. He's also called us to redeem how we work and how we cultivate. And some will call that a theology of work. And so there are some spaces that are talking about that, but there are others that don't. And the other thing I would say is that oftentimes when we talk about the gospel redemption narrative, we often start, we talk about, and this is why I think Genesis 1 and 2 is important, is because we talk about activity more than we talk about identity. And I am of the belief, which some people may push back and challenge, that the gospel is just not about trying to redeem activity. And when you start in Matthew, when you start in the New Testament and you preach a gospel that starts from the New Testament, you're really talking about activity. Like, you sin, you do this, this is vile. The Lord is not pleased with this action. But when you talk about Genesis now, you have a picture of what we are supposed to be and what we are supposed to look like. And it's not just the things we do, it's who we are. And a lot of communities, a lot of people need to be, I guess you could say, pulled back to the purpose of the human purpose. And I think starting in Genesis 1 and 2 brings us back to our human intent in reflecting God and who we are. Having to reflect him in our relationships and having to reflect them in the work. That's an identity thing. That's not just an activity thing. It's who am I? Who am I to God, who am I to other people? Who am I to myself? Who am I to this work? Not just what do I do for God, what do I do for other people, what do I do for myself? And what do I do to make money, man? Who am I? And let's answer those deep questions by starting with God saw that it was good and he blessed it. And he created, he spoke over us and gave us identity. And that the inversion and corruption happened when we were manipulated into thinking that Satan and the world could give us something that we already had in God.

You made such a compelling argument for this in the book and a lot of others have made it right. Today in Christian culture, we basically focus almost exclusively on the New Testament Testament, right? And have this very much a quote, unquote, two chapter gospel, fall and redemption, right? Jesus came to justify us and reconcile us back to himself. But in reality, the whole of scripture is, is what A lot of theologians call a four chapter gospel that starts in Genesis 1. It's creation, creation of this good world, fall, redemption and restoration, right of the new earth. That's where we're heading in the kingdom of God, dwelling here on earth. And so when you take out Genesis 1, you lose that through line and you lose a lot of the significance of our work and our craft. We were meant to work and today we're meant to work to restore us back to an Eden like world. Like that's, that's the connection for me and why it's so critical that we get this. So hey, you talked in the book about how theology should shape how we work, what we make through our work. So I'm curious for you, how does that kind of four chapter gospel, how does your theology shape what you actually make as an artist?

Yeah, I think the first thing we understand is that just the work in general is good. Like it doesn't have to be tethered or tied to some, some, I guess you could say social good that has been accredited by sociologists, philosophers and you know, et cetera, et cetera. Like, just because I am a politician doesn't mean my work is more valuable than the, you know, the trash man. Like there's value in all we do. And all we, and I, we talked about Waffle House earlier. The reason why I wrote about that is because my daughter, when she was young, said she wanted to work at Waffle House. You don't think that the people at Waffle House are bringing joy to folks on a daily basis. When you walk into Waffle House, you, you expect particular type of service. You expect it to smell like cigarette smoke. But the reality is you go there because there's something that's reminding you of the goodness of God. And those people are participating, whether they believe in God or not, they are participating in this creation that you are going to take home with you. And when you take that home with you, hopefully what you have just done is you've experienced the very basic fundamentals of people worshiping God whether they knew it or not. And so for me, the very act of working, creating is worshiping God. We are reflecting God in our creating because God created and he called us to create. We are creating resources. We are creating solutions for the world in different ways. Now some of them seem to be directly tied to an evil or an injustice. And some of them are just helping the purveyor belt of life to continue us to seek the joy and the beautiful works of God. Right. For me that's one. The other thing is that, well, now that I know things are corrupted and inverted, as an artist, how do I create, tell stories that I think are accurate, honest, but also pushing people toward redemption? Not just forcing redemption, but creating a conversation for people to castigate their lives and their work. And I feel, as someone who is deeply concerned with the ills of society, that my work is and should be focused on the renewal of what has been corrupted. And so that we can see a hope for, I guess you can say, the new Eden to come. It's been about a good. And I like to thank folks like Mako. There have been other folks, you know, along the road that in 2011, 2012, when I first really got my hands on this kind of like creation, fall, redemption, restoration idea, it was. It was revolutionary for me because I felt like that's what I've been trying to get. Like, yes, you guys just gave language to something that I've been feeling like. I, I felt like. But then what's funny is the more I kind of revisited African American theologians in history, Christians of the past, the reality is that, oh, they had that too. They just didn't call it creation, fall, redemption, restoration. The idea of, you know, God is here. He's concerned with my well being, but he's also prepared a home for me and I want to make this place a little better. That to me is in every way just as credible of a theological posture as what they teach in seminaries. It's just used with broken English said a little slower, and the words aren't as pedantic, if you will.

Yeah, yeah. But that art resonates with different audiences. Right. Like, I think about. You talked about Negro spirituals, which I think are such a terrific example of this. The language that's used in a lot of these spirituals are so biblically rich with the idea of the kingdom. Right. And that art was really used to spread the gospel of the kingdom, if you will, to tell all these slaves, hey, listen, this is reality today. Slavery is a reality today. But we have hope because of the coming of the kingdom, right?

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. The spirituals are a perfect example of what it looks like for people to understand that it's already, but not yet. Like, yes, this is. There's something wrong with this situation that we're within. Like the way the society is viewing us, the way that, you know, the system is built against us. There's something wrong with this. And we may not get all our answers here, but how do we contribute to bringing Joy and I guess, judgment at the same time. Oftentimes we think that the spirituals were just this cry of docile complacency. It's like, oh, well, we just gonna be happy singing these songs as slaves. It's like, no, there's a lot of judgment in that about their present condition. And there was a hope that God would come and be their advocate.

Yeah. You basically dedicate like a whole chapter of the book to this idea that I love, which is essentially arguing that, like, as Christian storytellers, we've got to accurately portray darkness if we want to tell redemptive stories. Right. Like without darkness, you can't get to the redemption. And to illustrate this, you told this great story from the actor who played Bubba Gump in my all time favorite movie, Forrest Gump. Can you retell that story here and kind of the point behind the story?

Yeah. So I was at a conference. It was, you know, King's conference, held by my friend Chris Broussard, who actually wrote the Ford, and McKilty Williams, along with some other individuals were on a panel. And McKilty Williams was telling a story about how a young guy he was mentoring, Christian guy, you know, did a reading or an audition, and when he walked in, he got the lines and he saw the character and he was just like, I just can't play this character. He just was. He went back to McKilty and he was like, I just don't feel comfortable. Because whether it was the language or the type of individual he was in this film, and McKilty said, he looked at him, he's like, boy, you better take that role. And take that role, not just because it's an opportunity, but take it. Because one of the things you want to do is you're not portraying his character to glorify him. You're not playing this character to spotlight evil for the purposes so that people can reproduce this. You're going to play this character so that you can show how vile, how disgusting, how egregious this character is, so that we can get an honest depiction of darkness, so that it will draw us and push us towards goodness. Right. And if anything, I think that's the Christian view. It's like the more honest we are about wickedness, the more honest we are about darkness, the. The more beautifully, I guess Jesus shines in this particular space because now we see how glorious his grace is, how wonderful of a king he is, how beautiful his gospel and redemption is. To know that an individual like this can go from dark to light is A beautiful thing. And if we're just saying dagums and shoots and o hex, then it's like, well, I don't really need Jesus because, I mean, you know, if this is the depths of the depravity in the Christian space, then, oh, I'm good, you know.

Yeah.

But I need a redemption that's going to save me from the deepest, darkest thoughts that I have about people who are around me. And only Jesus can do that.

Amen. That's really, really well said. So you asked this question in the book, kind of hypothetically, and I want to ask you to answer because it's related to this conversation. How can we work to change the world essentially without making it in our image? Right. Like, but rather the image of our creat. How do we do that?

So I think the way we do that is we understand that there's a God who we love and whom we serve that teaches us to do one thing consistently throughout the Scriptures, and that's love. And when you love people, I think that holds so much currency that even if my neighbors have a totally different religious view, political views, social sensibilities than I do, the one thing that is going to trump all those things is love. Because they recognize that I actually care about you as a human being. And through your missteps, hopefully through my missteps, through my pain, through my aggression, through my anger, through your pain, your anger, and your aggression, at the end of the day, hopefully you'll still see that I love you as an individual who God has created and made in his image. And the one thing I think we don't create enough space for is for people who could love God with all their heart, mind, body and soul and still have some various views on how to live their life out. Now, there are obvious areas of where people need to be chastised, rebuked, and so that they can repent. But there are a lot of things that, you know, vocations included, that I would say that Christians shouldn't work in, but that doesn't mean that they're not Christians because they work in those particular spaces. And so how do we allow space for hospitality and nuance? I think if what I'm trying to do is just expand the space of centeredness so that folks don't feel like they're all in the margins or that the right and the left is not so polarized. It's like, well, let's have conversations about love. Let's have conversations about humility and posture, and let's see Ourselves as family and not enemies. Let's not war with one another, but let's see ourselves as family who can at some point get to a place where we can live civil. Because that's my ultimate call. Like, I don't believe that there will ever be a time where there's no wars on this side of heaven. I don't ever believe there will be a time where people won't hate each other. I don't care if America was all native. I don't care if America was all white, if America was all black. There's enough evidence in other countries to show that people will find reasons to hate one another. Yeah. So the goal of, for me is the gospel is to. In places where there are metropolises like, you know, I consider America to be this grand metropolis of diverging ideas descending in one, in one space. How do we get people to see each other in a civil sense where we can have civility, charity, and peace and not war with one another? That's a better world to me.

That's beautiful. Hey, three rapid fire questions we always ask to wrap up every conversation. Number one, which books do you recommend on the whole, most frequently to others?

Oh, gosh, what book? I love fiction. So one of the fiction books that I always recommend is Song of Solomon by Toni Morrison.

Yeah.

So for Christians, I say mere Christianity because I feel like that's just a timeless piece of work. Did you ask for three books or do you.

No, any. Any. Whatever. Toni Morrison and Lewis. I don't know that you could top that. I think you better stop at 2.

Yeah, I'll just stop at that.

That's a pretty good lineup. Hey, who would you most like to hear on this podcast talking about how the gospel shapes their work in the world?

The first thought was my friend Justin Gibney, who is a politician who helped. We started the and campaign together. He is a brilliant mind who is creating, I guess you could say political literacy in Christian spaces so that people aren't as polarized on the right and left. I think he's a brilliant mind. He's a great leader. And especially in 2020, 2021, when political views seem to create great division in the Christian space. He's a person who I think holds conviction and compassion very well.

Well, text Justin when we get done and tell him he's welcome anytime. Actually, funny enough, somebody who was recently on the podcast, my friend Dr. Anthony Jones, he's an educator, said Justin Gibney of the End Campaign. Yeah, that was his answer. So we gotta get Justin on here. All right, last question. You're talking to an audience of people who love Jesus and just want to do great work to make his name known in the world. What one piece of advice do you want to leave them with?

Make sure that you are prepared to make a life and not just make a living. A lot of people have succeeded climbing the wrong wall, and I think worse than failing is succeeding at things that don't really matter.

Amen. Very, very well said. Hey, Show, I just want to thank you for your exceptional work as an artist, as an author. Thank you for just working with excellence to create a world that looks more like the kingdom and for using art not just to entertain right, but to deliver hard, inconvenient truths in a really winsome way. So thank you for doing that. Hey, guys, again, I loved Show's book. I read it front to back in about two days. It's called He Saw that It Was Good, published by our shared publisher, Waterbrook Multnomah. You guys can pick it up now wherever books are sold. Show, thank you so much for hanging out with me.

Oh, man. Thank you very much. It was a pleasure and much success and blessings to you moving forward.

Hey, guys, I hope you enjoyed that episode. Hey, listen, you guys know we have a large team working on this show and everything else I've got going on. If you want to include encourage my team to keep going, keep pushing on this podcast, do me a favor, go write a review of the podcast on Apple Podcasts right now. We read those reviews to our team at our all hands meetings every Friday. If you don't have Apple podcasts, if you're listening on Spotify, you can just send us a message@jordanraynor.com contact. I would love to encourage our team to this end. Just let us know how this content, how these episodes are shaping your view of your work and helping you create for the glory of God and the good of others. Thank you guys so much for tuning in. I'll see you next week.