Shundrawn Thomas (President of Northern Trust Asset Management)

The episode you're about to listen to was released back when the Mere Christians podcast was called the Call to Mastery. Now, if you love Mere Christians, you're still going to love these older episodes because the majority of each conversation focuses on how the gospel influences the work of our guests. With that disclaimer out of the way, please enjoy the episode. Hey everyone. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I'm Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. Each and every week, I'm hosting a conversation with somebody who is following Christ and is also pursuing world class mastery of their craft. We're talking about their path to mastery, their daily habits, and how their faith influences the work they do each day. Today, guys, I am thrilled to share a terrific conversation I recently had with Chandron Thomas. He's the president of Northern Trust Asset Management, a trillion dollar investment management business, one of the biggest in the globe. In 2017, Chandron was named one of the most powerful black executives and in corporate America. He's a masterful leader. And he's also the author of a terrific book that I'm thoroughly enjoying called Discover Joy in Work. So Chandranda and I recently sat down. We talked about how to gracefully renegotiate commitments when you're overwhelmed, a topic that I am always interested in learning more about. We talked about why commitment is what ultimately makes a calling. And we talked about how to find joy in a job that you already have. Right. So rather than hopping from job to job expecting to find joy along the way, how do you stay parked for a season of time, for a period of time, and find joy right where you are. Please enjoy this terrific conversation with my new friend, Chandron Thomas. Hey, Chandron, thank you so much for joining me today, man. I really appreciate it.

Great to be here.

I mentioned in the intro, I mentioned Northern Trust, and if our audience recognizes that name, they only know Northern Trust as a bank, right? One of the largest banks in the United States. Tell us a little bit about your business unit. Tell us about Northern Trust Asset Management, this division that you lead as president. And for those who don't know, tell us, what does an investment management business do?

Sure. I'll touch quickly on Northern Trust investment management and what that business is and then specifically our business. So Northern Trust, we have a rich history, been around for 130 years. Simple way to think about it is we're in three primary businesses founded as a trust business. People think of us as a wealth Manager. So helping wealthy individuals and families manage their money. The second thing is we are a custodian. So we work a lot with institutions around the globe. You may describe it as the safekeeping of their assets. Now, there are a bunch of things that we do in addition to that in a second business that we call asset servicing. So beyond safekeeping, we help them if they have to transact with those, if they have to do foreign exchange, lots of different. What we would call capital markets activities. So that's the second business. And then the third business is investment management. And so, simply put, whether it's a large institution, think about a governmental entity. It could be a large corporation. It could be a foundation or endowment all the way through to families and individuals. We're helping them manage their money. And so within the investment management business that I'm responsible for, we're one of the largest investment managers in the globe. We manage just over a trillion in assets under management. And you've got about 4,000 asset managers globally. And so if you think of the ranking of scale, we're the 18th largest global asset manager.

Wow, that's incredible. So how did you get into this? I'm really curious about your story. So we were talking before we started recording. You and I share an affinity for Tallahassee. You were at famu, I was at Florida State. Slightly different times. Not to age you, Chandran. Slightly different times. But tell us your story. What's the path that led you to the work you're doing today?

So it's interesting because I developed an interest in business, broadly speaking, very early. And it literally goes back to being a young child. And I remember when you were growing up, you'd always get asked, well, what do you want to do? And the popular responses when I was coming up is, you wanted to be a doctor, a lawyer, a police officer, a fireman. But I would watch TV and I would see people on TV wearing suits and ties and carrying briefcases. And I recall literally from some of my youngest years telling my mother, I want to be a businessman. Now, I'll be frank with you, Jordan. I had no idea at that time exactly what they did, but it seemed to me to be important or interesting.

So stop there for a second. Was there a specific show that you can remember, a point back to back? Oh, yeah, I wanted to be, like, obviously not Gordon Gekko on Wall street, but, like, was there a character on television that you really admired?

No. You know, and that's a great question there at the time, at that young age, there wasn't a particular show, I think it was just that image. But as you know, and we'll touch on this. Images are powerful.

Yeah.

Now, where it really became more tangible is I went to a great high school, was a magnet high school, drew academically inclined kids from all over the city. And there you could take certain courses that weren't necessarily offered in your typical public high school. So I got to take an app economics course. I took accounting. Those are the first time I got introduced to business. And I said, you know, this is it. I really enjoy this. I was able to do an internship also when I was in high school. So worked firm that doesn't exist today now. Arthur Anderson. Yes. Specifically at Anderson. Yep. In Chicago.

Yeah. So you were born and raised in Chicago.

Raised in Chicago, grew up on the south side.

So you're doing an internship at Anderson, which is no longer in the picture, obviously.

And that set the path for being then specifically interested in business. Everything from that, you know, it just goes down a path. I do my undergraduate business education at Florida A and M. I get turned on to finance when I get there because I thought I would be a public accountant. And then once I learned about investments, which is the business I'm in, it went down that path. I had my final internship when I was in college working for Wall street firm Morgan Stanley. And from there I stayed in the business. I went back to school after working several years to pursue my MBA at the University of Chicago. And so all those things helped me, over time, kind of fine tune where my interest is and move eventually more into capital markets and investments where I spent much of my career.

So you were very kind to prep for this conversation to read my latest book, Master of One. Actually, I think you listened to it on audible.

I did.

I'm really curious to hear your response to this hypothesis. I lay out in the book that passion follows mastery, that we get to love what we do by getting really, really good at it. And has that been your experience in your career?

I'll say it this way, and you'll appreciate this. It'll be a compliment to what you said years ago. I was talking and came up with like, sort of a construct I think about, and I think there's this intersection, and the intersection you. You hit on. You really hit on all three, maybe slightly different terms. But there is passion, there's proficiency, which is the term I use, which is synonymous to your term mastery. And then there's preparedness, which is. And in some respects another element you can think of about that. And I Said in the center of those, one finds their purpose. But I think it is something that you discover. So what really resonated with the book is I think so many people almost approach it like, you know, sort of a light's gonna shine out of the sky and then out comes sort of the purpose or from the construct of your book, that one thing the reality is it's a discovery process. And so I think you do have to work hard at things to figure out first of all, what you're actually really good at before you can get to a point where, you know, it becomes again, that one thing.

I think that's a really succinct way to put I love that. So in Discover Joy and Work, which I'm loving the book, you use similar language around vocation in that we as Christians, as human beings, we have the freedom to choose our vocations. I saw use that word once or twice. What I used, in fact, chapter six is called Choose a Master of One.

Yes.

So do you think college is something we choose or something that chooses us? I think this is the million dollar question that a lot of people ask. What's your take on this?

See, so I fundamentally think that calling is something we choose, but I think it is in this context. It is part of the grace that God gives us in our life.

Amen.

It is no different than God offers us the amazing gift of eternal life, but he does not force it upon us. It is ultimately something that we have to accept his lordship in our lives. And the same way God gifts us with certain gifts or graces, we have certain things we're inclined towards. I don't think there is one single thing that an individual does. That being said, there are certain things certainly you are more inclined towards, towards others. And then that's where that discovery process comes in. That's where that hard work and that commitment, like you said, just the spending the time and the investment to find the thing that you, in a sense, ultimately choose.

Yeah, no, I think that's. I think that's exactly right. I've been thinking more lately, maybe this is too controversial, like a blog post topic, but I've been thinking about this, like calling. I'm not sure calling is a noun. I increasingly think calling is an adjective to describe this feeling that, like, this is the work that God created me to do. But we treat it as a noun all the time. And I think that leads us down this path of thinking that there is only one thing in this world that God designed me to do in my career. And I have to find that magical diamond in the rough. When in reality, God has given us all this general call to glorify him, to love Neighbor himself, to make disciples of Jesus Christ. And there are likely dozens, maybe even hundreds of ways we can do that through our work. Not just one. Right. But at some point, in order to do really exceptional work that glorifies him and loves neighbor himself, you got to do the work to find what you can be good at and make a choice. Right?

I agree. And it's interesting actually. What you said would only be maybe perceived by some as controversial today. It wouldn't evolve historically. So historically, when someone chose a particular vocation, what we would might refer to as a career, whatever that choice is, they viewed it as a calling. Not in the sense that they were, someone was calling to them to do it, which is almost the mindset we have, but the fact that they've made now a commitment to pursue that thing, and that's the way in which they will deliver their giftedness or that service. So that means that any honorable work, anything that we choose to set our mind and our heart to and perform in service from their standpoint, it would have been a commitment to a calling. And so I think that that's, you know, sort of shifted over time. So it's sort of people almost waiting for again, something from the outside to call. It really resonates with me because it's a similar way in which I think about this concept of calling.

I love that. So let's talk about discovering joy and work in jobs that we don't currently love. So one thing I love about your story is you've had some incredibly high profile white collar jobs, if we can call them that. But you've also had some, some blue collar jobs you, you talk about in the book. You mowed lawns, you shoveled snow in Chicago, right. Washed cars. Jobs that a lot of people, if they're in that today as their primary source of income, wouldn't describe as a calling. And most people don't find joy in work. You know this Chandran, right? Gallup tells us that 3/4 of Americans are disengaged from their current jobs. So, I mean, this is really setting up what this book is all about. But how do we discover joy in a job we currently don't love?

So there are a couple of things. The first is, I think what precedes joy and it's very akin or right alongside is, is this thing that we learn in Scripture about contentment. What happens is wherever we are right. There is a measure not only of grace, but joy we absolutely can find. I think of some of the most mundane tasks, like I'm one of these people, like on a Saturday, if I've got to get out and power wash the deck. I mean, it's weird. I like certain hands on work. I enjoy that. But what happens is in our desire to do different things, we can't look past the opportunity that sits before us. You talk about this very powerfully in your book. You talk about one of the things we look for is the opportunity to serve. Now what honest work do you do where you don't have the opportunity to serve? I also say in any job, be it something that we consider mundane or simple, there are always disciplines that we can learn. Whether they are skills or. Or whether just as importantly there is a perfecting that's happening in our character as we see those things and see God working in that. It affects what I call the attitude of the heart of joy. It also catapults us into whatever that next thing or that next season is that God has for us.

I love one of my favorite lines in the book. You said, setting aside the human tendency towards self centeredness is a prerequisite to discovering joy in our work. Can you expound upon that, what you mean by that?

If you think about it, right, it tells us in scripture, right? There's always this tension, right? The flesh which we seek to subdue, and there's the Spirit. The flesh in and of itself is selfish, right? I wake up in the morning never confused about what I want or what I would prefer or what makes me comfortable. And so it is actually that dying to self that I have to do just to live the life of Christ to let God's will be prevalent in my life. It's actually the same principle as it pertains to work. When we approach our work with a selfish or a self centered attitude, when our first and primary thoughts are about what we get paid or how we're respected or how we are positioned relative to our peers, we miss so much on the opportunity to work. I give an example from your book. I really love the anecdote you told about your mother in law.

Yeah.

And you talked about how leading the children's choir was something that led to a 30 year occupation or vocation rather. But you said, very specifically, you said it was born out of the opportunity to serve. Said another way, it wasn't selfish or self centered. And that's why she found that incredible opportunity. And not only would I say the vocation, but the joy in what she was doing.

My mother in law is going to love you for making that call. Call she love. Tell her to listen to this episode of Call Mastery. Hey, can you. Can. I love this story in the book. You just reminded me of it. The story of Deborah, I think her name was the security guard. Can you tell that story?

So this was incredible. So obviously working in the financial services business in early all the times. And I would get in and I'm one of those people. I'm a truly one of the first people in. One of the last people leave. Just always been wired that way. So when I would come into work at this time I was working in the Sears Tower in Chicago. And the first people I would see would always be the security guards. I mean the lobby would be quiet, there would be very few people. And even most of the security guards would have sort of this Darrow disposition. It was very early in the morning, but there was this one Deborah and she was always ebulent. I mean just it. She just had this not only calm but this joyful attitude. And I remembered specifically coming in and I captured this in the book right after 9, 11 and everybody's depressed and down and there Deborah is with the same joyful attitude. And so it caused me to ask her, I said, I have to ask you, like, why are you so joyful every day? Especially, you know, at a time or a day like this. And it was interesting how she shared at that moment how she was so grateful for the job that she had the opportunity to work. She began to share that she had many kinds of jobs in a sense, some that were more prestigious or more important. But how at peace and how happy she was in this. I noticed as she talked, what came through was the conviction of her faith. And it was clear that it was centered in that. But. But it was just such a. You know, sometimes God teaches you through the examples of people. It made me think so much about my attitude towards my own work and my own opportunity and my own vocation.

And so much of this, right, so much of our discontent does stem from attitude. And what I liked about your book is it gives a really practical guide from a gospel centric lens of how we adjust our attitude more towards the attitude of Christ and bring that to work. So a couple minutes ago we talked about choice and the role that that's played in your path to mastery. You've chosen very deliberately to master the art of business and leadership. So I'm really curious. I mean, you're leading this massive institution. What do world class leaders do that their less masterful counterparts don't? What's the delta between good and great in leadership?

Right, so there are a couple of things. The first thing that I think people who seek to master any trait do, and the most exceptional people, they put in more time. And I tell people, I mean, the reality is, especially in this day and age, with so many things pulling on our time, in any season of my work, if I go over my entire, you know, 26 career in finance, on average, I'm in, you know, one to two hours before everyone else. Oftentimes on the back end. It depends on a given day. One to two hours longer, certainly a bit more sometimes in my executive role. But I'm saying that's over the course of the career. So the commitment to not only the hours, but this is important, Jordan, because you'll appreciate this. You talk about with your own approach, having segments of time where you can really dedicate to focusing on something.

Yeah, yeah.

You don't put in oftentimes those extra hours. You don't have those dedicated segments where you can focus and really master things. So that's number one, two, what you see in distinctive and people who are masterful is they know themselves. So what I tell people is when they look at my career, what they can identify as, quote, unquote, the choices that I've made, the things that I pursue, what they can't see is the things that I turn down or the things that I decline. Those instances where I knew something was just not really aligned with my natural inclination or my natural skills or play place where I could really excel. And so being able to focus more than not on areas where they have keen strengths comes from the fact of actually knowing what those strengths are. And so that's important to only two more things. Choosing an environment in which you can flourish. So even if I'm highly skillful, if I'm in a place where it's sort of like a plant potted in the wrong kind of soil, you can't flourish. So where you choose the mission, you choose to follow the culture and. And then the final thing that you touch on, well, in your book is this focus on others, in serving others. I think the most exceptional people are able to learn from others, both in terms of listening and serving.

I want to go back to putting in the hours, putting in the reps. Right. And I'm curious because I have a love hate relationship with a particular book called the Four Hour Workweek by Tim which, which. Which has grown in popularity, I mean, just continues to grow in popular even amongst the ch. I want you to address proponents of the four hour work week strategy.

Try to do it.

I mean, obviously you're going to do it from a gospel worldview, given that that's your belief system. Have you read this book? And how do you respond to its core hypotheses?

So I have. And I. By the way, I've also heard your perspective on this.

Oh, that's right. I forgot I wrote about this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're not going to be surprised. We don't differ much. Here's what I would say. What I always listen to things and I say, what are the elements that resonate or the truths that I can take from it? So I will start with what I view as constructive is the big picture that I would pull away from. It is about being efficient with the dedication of one's not only time and hours, but also your emotional energy. Yeah, yeah. And so we should actually always seek to get the highest level of return out of whatever time we invest and emotional energy we invest. And I think there's something to be said directly or indirectly about the thought of that from the book. I think a potential misapplication and I think you have to be careful with the construct there is similar to what you said. But if the thought process at the end of the day is I want the maximum output or I want to achieve mastery with the smallest investment of time, I just don't see that practically. I don't see people who have mastered what they've done by investing limited time and limited emotional energy.

Yeah, I mean, I think you can. I see plenty of examples of people who can work four hours a week and make a great living doing it. And as I've said before, I really do love the book. I reread it pretty frequently because I think it's a terrific guide to being really efficient our work. But I don't. You know, we are not, as Christians called to do the minimum necessary to get what we want out of the world. We're called to serve the world and to spend ourselves sacrificing officially. And that leads me to be more ambitious for more. Sure, I could. I'm in a financial position today where I could write an hour a day and just write books and not produce podcasts and not produce my devotionals. But I think that's a disservice to the call of my life and the call to mastery. Right. Which obviously is what the show is all About So, all right, Chandran, in Master of One, you read about these three keys. What I see is these three keys to mastering any vocation, whether you're in business, whether you're in law, whether you're a janitor, whatever it is, number one's apprenticeships. Number two is purposeful practice. And number three is discipline over time. And maybe the previous answer gives away your answer to this next one. But which of those three keys have you found to be the most critical in your own career? Apprenticeships, purposeful practice or discipline over time?

Yeah, and so, you know, this one is tough because they all are very essential and they resonate with me. But what I would say ultimately is the one that if I had to pick between the three, it is the purposeful practice. Now the reason I say that, because it's right neck and neck with apprenticeship. But ultimately God uses people he places in our lives to help us grow. Like he says, you know, in the church, for example, I put those in there for perfecting. But ultimately we're only perfected when we put those things into practice. And the ultimate teacher in the life of the believer is the Holy Spirit. And so if I'm not willing to, and I, and I love the qualifier that you give, purposely practice. There is no achievement of mastery.

No, that's very well said. The purposeful is the qualifier. Right. Everyone's familiar with the 10,000 hour rule famous by Malcolm Gladwell. What people are far less familiar with is it's not just 10,000 hours of practice, it's purposeful practice. Right. We talk about that at length. So I read somewhere my team pulled this up in researching you on one of your former colleagues said if you quote, chandran is just a really lovely guy who does what he says he's going to do. End quote. So simple, but in my opinion, like so unbelievably rare. I used to tell interns at my companies, guys, I hate to sound cynical, but you can't imagine how low the bar is for you to be successful in this world. Like show up on time, do what you say you're going to do and respond to your emails. That's all it takes. So my question for you, probably a very simple one. This probably just feels like breathing for you. But how practically do you ensure that your yes is yes, that you follow through on your many, many commitments? Like what tools, what software, what processes are you using to ensure your yes is yes?

Right? So you know the number one thing I start with, and you're going to appreciate this because it's chapter seven of your book, you have to eliminate.

Yeah.

So I think that where a lot of people struggle, and I would say, let me, let me say this this way, a lot of talented people in particular struggle because they over commit themselves. They're unrealistic about what they can achieve in any given day. And so they create a lot of disappointment. So the first thing, what I would say as you continually move through different stages of life, is assessing what your commitments are, what those priorities are. So you have to be able to eliminate those things that are not priorities, which by definition means. And something that I believe I do well is you have to be able to prioritize. And good prioritization, as you know, Jordan, because I'm sure you do this all the time, is reprioritized.

Yeah.

Now the thing that I would say is that I'm really committed to when you truly care about people. Right. Your word has to mean something. And so when I make a commitment, I don't care how big or small it goes on the priority list. And so one of the things I do in terms of even organizing my day, whether it's my electronic calendar, it's not just the things that I want to accomplish, it's not just the things that I have to do from a business standpoint, but I actually do this, whether it's my wife, whether it's my church, whether it's my friends. On any given day, I have spelled out what are the personal commitments that I've made to people and where does that show up?

So get real nitty gritty. Is that on your calendar? Is that in a to do list app or where is that?

So for me, so I'm big on putting in the calendar now these days, you know, we've moved to an electric calendar, electronic calendars. Right. But it's there. I mean, it's there in writing because to me, I don't want to leave it to chance or to leave it to the busyness of life that I've missed a personal commitment. And what happens is I do think that really resonates with people. I think what it also does is it makes you true to yourself. Right. Because that way again, you're not, not only not over committing, but you realize the importance of relationships. I think it's so easy for people to justify when they get more responsibility or they become more important. Oh, I didn't get to that today. Or I know I said I was going to do that, but they'll understand.

Yeah.

But then what happens is what's Diminishing is not your intellectual quotient, not your talent. But I do think there is a demonization of your morals and your values, because I think your yes has to be yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, Jesus commanded that of us. So I was just talking to somebody the other day and they were talking about how they had booked up like, I don't know, like 10 speaking engagements this year. And they did it like six months ago, right? They booked 10 speaking engagements and now they're sitting here realizing, man, these speaking engagements aren't essential to my business. Like, why did I over commit myself? So really practical question for you. How do you. What's the artful way of renegotiating commitments or backing out of a commitment that you made that you realize is no longer essential to the work at hand? Or do you just keep every commitment? I'm really curious how you think about that.

So. So I want to distinguish them. So there are certain commitments that I view as more essential. So for instance, I have a commitment I've made to my son of something that's important to him. Whether it's I'm going to show up to an attend an important debate he has or go to a game. To me there has to be something exceptional, I mean, truly exceptional, to cause me to miss one of those commitments. And that really happens because those are essential. Now let me give a different example. I like your example about a speaking engagement. The practical reality, in many instances, while we view ourselves as being irreplaceable and really important, if someone had to, someone else could do that commitment. So here would be my decision on that. I would say to myself, can I truly do that engagement with the level of excellence that I know that I can deliver and the audience deserves? If I cannot, if I am over committed, I think it is simple as being truthful. I would be comfortable calling that organizer and saying, can I either A, look to another opportunity in the future to make this commitment, or B, even if it means I don't have the opportunity, can we talk about someone else doing that? Because I think that to be stretched and to give less than your best is not truly honoring the commitment.

I think that's terrific practical advice, right? So I think the first step there is recognizing that if you are overstretched and over committed, you're not going to fulfill the commitment with any level of excellence. And two, reframing it to whoever you made that commitment to as this is going to be a disservice to you or your event attendees or who, whatever that commitment might be. I think that's really, really good. All right, so we're talking about calendars, we're talking about not over committing ourselves. I'm really curious, what does a day in the life of Chandran look like from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to bed? What's the TikTok? What's the timeline of your day?

I think it helps that I'm more of a morning person. But typical day, I'm up.

Do you know. Hang on one second, let me, let me jump in there. Do you know people that you would deem truly world class who are not morning people?

Not much, but I would say they're degrees of morning people. So that's a fair question. Yeah, I'm up on a regular basis at a quarter to five. My morning routine is efficient because I'm looking to be out the door usually by about 5:20. So that meant it start with probably preparing the night before. I know what I'm going to put up in the morning, on in the morning and I'm not going to waste too much time in the shower, in the bathroom and those things I'm thinking through before I leave very quickly my day. And I'm also spending a little bit of time in prayer and meditation just quickly trying to set my mind for the day. I like to productively use the time. So for the most part these days I often have to drive in. Whether I drive or commute in, this is really important. I don't do work on my commute. So I always. I was telling you, you were asking me like you were sort of surprised. Listen to master one. But in the commute, I only do two things. If I'm in the car, I'm either listening to audiobooks or listening to the Bible on audio. And because it's my time to invest in myself intellectually, spiritually, I get to the office. And once I get to the office, it's still relatively early. I can get in at about, you know, if I'm driving 35 minutes. And so I spend the first 30 to 40 minutes preparing for the day. I'm going through financial news, I'm going through world news, things that would affect the markets, those things. After that preparation, then I'm revisiting again because I've looked at the night before my calendar to make sure that I'm mentally and otherwise prepare for the meetings in my work. Lots of engagement in meetings during the day, whether one on one or otherwise. But what I also am very careful to do, Jordan, which I think you take this practice on I carve out in advance chunks of the day on the calendar, even if it's the 60 to 90 minutes in the morning or in the afternoon. I find if I don't do that the calendar can become overrun. But I need some segments of time that I can actually focus on getting important components of my work done. And that's usually going to also happen at the end of the day. I have to travel a lot. I would say in a given year when I'm seeing we've got 15 folks around the globe and everywhere from Asia, Australasia to Europe to different places and between the clients and people there, I probably spend about 200,000 flight miles a year. So I have to manage that as well. And I would say on a typical day, if I'm getting into the office about 6:10 or 6:15, my departure time will usually range from about 6:30 to 7:30 for my commute home.

So you get home, what do you do when you go home?

So when I get home there's a couple of things, usually really quickly. I actually tend to work out in the evenings, so I honestly walk in the door often to change. Fortunately we have a little home gym. I go right to it. It could be an exercise video, it could be running on the treadmill skillmo. But I try usually if a work week of five days, about three of the five days I'm working out when I walk in the door and I work out on the weekends. Other days it may differ because we're very committed to our church. On Tuesday evenings every week when I'm not traveling, we have a commitment at the church for ministries that we serve in. You intermix those days, but that's typical. When I get through that it's workout a shower, it's down to dinner and then my time from there is all about family. My attitude is if I'm able to get home by, you know, 7:38 and I can work out and eat within an hour, the family is usually going down by about 10:30. So there's going to be roughly about an hour and a half to two hours in there. And it's talking to the kids, seeing where they are, do they need help with anything on the margin, always last. I'm decompressing with my wife. My wife is wonderful in that sometimes if she especially knows my schedule, she'll organize her evening whereas she'll actually wait for me so that we can eat dinner together. Yeah, so we try to do that as much as we can so. So they'll actually, to my benefit, sometimes skew their evening so that we can all eat dinner together. And so we try to do those practices because we're trying to maximize that family engagement around the other demanding commitments that we have with work in church.

I'm not surprised to hear your wife's wonderful. She's a Florida State Seminole, for crying out loud. So how do you unwind at night? Like, what are the last 30 minutes before you hit the pillow look like? Are you watching tv? Are you reading? What are you doing?

So, you know, this is interesting. I watch virtually no television. I spend. In the evenings, I'll spend, you know, maybe 15 or 20 minutes catching a bit of the news. But I consume most of my news during the day and online. My last minutes always before I go to sleep. And it's a comforting thing. So it's like directionally, I like to say, you know, because my wife asleep, usually when I get up, I start my day with God, I end my day with my wife. I am married so incredibly. Well, we love being with each other. And so the way that my day generally settles is the time that we spend in that one on one conversation before we go down.

Yeah, I love that. I love that. All right, so you're an incredibly productive guy. I'm really curious. If you build margin and breaks into your calendar, do you have every minute of your day today scheduled, or do you have breaks in between? And if so, what do those breaks look like?

So I would say this is a great question, Jordan. I would say my objective always is to try and build some breaks in. And the tyranny of the calendar allows for that some days more than not. Now I have a great assistant, and we try to do that. But it's funny, today is a good example of, like, when I look at the afternoon that I have. All other things being equal from a break standpoint is suboptimal. But I just came back last night from traveling, you know, two days on business. And so there. So. So you need to tell people these things. There's some practical and unevenness, but I would say we try as a practice to build in brakes because I found that I went through a season of time where I didn't do that well at all, Jordan. And I really started to feel. Not the physical burnout, the emotional burnout.

Yeah, I've been there, too. And you also start to fail to make creative connections between ideas and media. Right. I think there's a lot of wisdom in building breaks in between those things. So even right now, so I'm on a, we're recording a new batch of these podcast episodes, right. And the first batch we had 15 minute breaks in between episodes and we were doing four or five a day. And now we're, we're still doing four or five a day, but I got 3:30 minutes, sometimes an hour break. And already it's made a huge difference in the quality of the conversation. So. All right, let's talk about, let's talk about your life within the local church. So your parents were co pastors you grew up in, you serve as an associate pastor of your church in Chicago. So I know given your writing in this book, Discover Joy and Work, you view all of your work, even managing a trillion dollar of client assets, as ministry. Can you expound upon why? Can you just get up on your soapbox and talk about why?

Yeah, it's because what I, what I say is, and you can appreciate this, I think there was this odd dichotomy that people had for a long time that there was your so called work life and then your life and we just have a life. Right? Right. And work is one of the things that we do. In the context that I always tell people about, I like to say your career plan has to fit in your life plan. And so everything that God has given me or gifted me, resource wise, spiritually and otherwise, are meant to be deployed in all areas of my life. And what I've realized is that when you look at it that way, you can become highly successful. Like I like how you when you talk about mastery. If I think about the organizing sort of principle and giftedness that I have, the areas that I most excel is in my ability to, to teach and my ability to advise or give wise counsel. Well, what am I doing as an investment advisor? I am giving wise counsel. What am I doing as a man? I spend 50% of my time developing and coaching people. And so the very principles and values that I have as a believer inform those things. And then I turn around in the church and you talk about mastery. I mean, I've spent the last 20 years teaching adult Sunday school class. It's one of the things I most love to do during the week. But it's something that translate and these things become seamless because they become the ways in which and the skills through which God uses you in your life.

Have you read Trillion Dollar Coach?

I haven't read that one.

All right, so I would highly recommend it to you. So this is the story of Bill Campbell, who is the executive Coach to Steve Jobs, Eric Schmidt, Larry Page, Sergey Brin, Mark Zuckerberg, basically any A list Silicon Valley CEO over the last 30 years. Bill Campbell was the guy behind the scenes coaching these people. Okay. It's terrific book. They talk a lot in the book about how Bill mentored people. I mean that, that was his, that was his shtick. And you spent, you just said 50% of your time developing people. I'm curious, like very practically, what are your one on one meetings look like? Like how do you run those meetings? And then the follow up question to that is how you mentioned that your faith informs your approach to developing people. I'm really curious how that plays a role in that.

Yeah. So two things. So one on one meetings. So anyone will tell you that works with me. Right. My expectations are high and appropriately high. And what I mean by that is a, anyone who has a meeting with me on my calendar, the meeting has to have an agenda or a state of purpose.

Yeah.

And it's funny because when people start engaging with me, they actually, their first reaction is surprise. Like people. But what I tell people is, look, I have to be disciplined with my time, first of all. Two, in order for me to be able to be of service to you, I have to know what we're trying to accomplish. Amen. And so my attitude first and foremost is if you can't articulate the purpose or we can't set an agenda, two things. We can't be productive in that meeting. And I say this respectfully to people I don't know, then we've earned the right to use that time. Yeah, that's the first thing. The second thing is we talk about what are our shared or common goals because we're not here in the organization by accident. Everything should tie back to an agreement that we have to serving the mission and then specifically that individual's responsibilities or actionable things that they're looking to achieve. And then what I try to do is I always look for, I always look for what are teachable moments. Now this is important. You can't force meaning into the pool. So if I want to coach someone, I can only coach them if they're coachable. So what I can do is not look to them to say how do I need to try in my mind to change or fix them. That's not coaching and that's not helping.

Right.

I can look for opportunities that they are, as they arise, that are coachable moments when they're open to actually receiving, whether they're explicitly asking or in other ways they're open or searching. And if I'm mindful of those, I can sow into the other part of their life, which is not just their technical skills, but their beliefs or values.

Yeah. And so I'm sure your faith informs that. How else does your faith inform? Just your passion for developing people. You got to really care about that to be in the role that you're in. You got to really lean into mentoring others. How does the gospel, how does your faith influence your desire to do that work?

Yeah, it's. You know what, because when you have an eternal focus, here's what you realize. The material wealth or the possessions. Right. The titles, all those things, they'll all pass. This is important, though. Relationships are one of the few things that can pass from this life to the next. And so in investing in that relationship and sowing things that are spiritual, we're actually investing in something that's eternal. And I think that's one of the things your faith informs. It causes you to look at your engagements with people in the workplace not as transactional, but as much more meaningful than that. And also what happens is two things. Transformation for you and for others. When you really are in service of others, you see yourself maturing and growing spiritually. So you literally see the work, the transformative work of God in your lives. And when God allows you to be used by him to help people in their own spiritual journey, you also see the transformation in their lives. And as a person of faith, there is no greater joy.

No, not at all. So I read somewhere that in the early days of your career, you were one of only three African Americans working on a 600 person trading floor. I imagine this is at Stanley. What impact, if any, did that experience have on your ambition to become a masterful executive and leader? How did that affect your career?

I think that what happens in any context, right, when you step into a new environment, all other things being equal, it's helpful to see examples of others who may have similar backgrounds, similar experiences, who are having success.

We want to feel like we belong, right.

So everybody's sort of seeking a tribe, right? And so when it's not the obvious thing in one, you can respond one of two ways. You can see that as a negative, or you can, in a sense push yourself to learn, in a sense, to look past the obvious things. And the second is what became very prevalent to me. So I didn't focus on the fact that, you know, the industry that I was in was not particularly diverse and we still need to improve that today. But what I began to see is there were so many people in the organization, if I extended myself, they took a vested interest in me, not only in my career, but as a person. And while there might not be the obvious connections, we didn't all grow up in the same places and go to the same schools. There were so many other connections. There was just a certain mentality or a hustle that maybe you had that connected with others. I remember in my first year, I had a boss. I was, you know, living in New York away from Chicago. Couldn't go home, but invited me to spend Thanksgiving with his family. And so these things begin to orient you to thinking very holistically about how you build relationships. I'll tell you the last thing that it did for me, Jordan, in some respects, coming into an environment in being a proverbial outsider became a strength because I had to stretch and develop skills to connect with people and build relationships and sometimes ways that others didn't. But I found that over time, it built for me stronger and more meaningful relationships with many of the people that I worked with.

Yeah, in Master of One, I talk about. I was just thinking about this when I was reading about your story. I talk about how when we pursue mastery of our craftsman, the Lord often graciously gives us power, right. That as Christians, we are called to pour out sacrificially. I believe for the less fortunate. You became the first person of color elevated to the top tier of management and Northern Trust, which is incredible, an incredible gift of grace and a testament to your hard work. And you said in an interview, quote, I'm now at the table influencing decisions. Can you talk about the opportunities you've had to serve minorities, to serve the less fortunate in business as a result of being at the table?

It really is, it presents a tremendous opportunity and in many ways a responsibility. Some examples would be this. One of the things in any organization that you focus on is what people refer to as talent management. And a lot of those decisions are who are the individuals that you designate for high potential programs or stretch opportunities and the like? Well, what happens, and this is not intentional, but if you think about, if you, you historically have organizations where you don't have great gender diversity or you don't have diversity of ethnicity or sometimes just even background. You have some organizations, historically, they've only recruited from certain schools. And because of that, those unconscious things inform the decisions that are made. Well, what happens is once you are able to be part of that, you can bring a different perspective. And what it does, it expands it by definition, expands opportunity. What I say is we live in the US Truly, and the most amazing country in the world, right, as far as opportunity. But we can't presume because we are surrounded by opportunity, that opportunity is equal. In fact, opportunity is unequal. And so the ability to expand those opportunities to talented, deserving people by virtue of being able to help see them through a more three dimensional and holistic lens is part of what I can bring to those environments.

What would be different about Northern Trust asset management if you were not a follower of Christ?

Well, I'll tell you, here's what I believe that I brought by virtue of it. And you can appreciate this because you were kind enough to share your feedback on the book. But what I said in Discover Joy and Work is that the book I was writing, although I am a believer, I say in the dedication very plainly, I'm writing the book to the working world. And so it's an ability, I believe, to do what I think Paul, as an example in scripture did so well. He was wise not only in winning souls, he was just there was a winsome way he could connect with people across cultures and different things like that. I can take the principles the truth, because truth is truth, and not only apply the truth and the values that come from my strong convictions in the appropriate ways in the workplace, but I also can identify truth and make the translation. And the way that we do that, for example, is we are very focused not just on building technical skills and proficiency in our business, which is what most firms focus on, but I focus a lot on shaping culture and establishing shared values. And I don't think that you might necessarily see that in the same way from different leaders. And that certainly is informed in a material way by my faith. The last thing I would say is that faith is not about seeking others that believe what I believe. It's about understanding that every single individual has power and purpose and is created in the image of God and loving and respecting them for whatever belief they profess, and if they profess, no belief at all. So bringing that kind of attitude to the workplace, I think is different than sometimes the divisiveness that is created by sometimes people who pursue just as strong ideology or a strong fixed approach to something.

That's a beautiful practical way that you are being salt and light at Northern Trust. All right, three final questions. I love to wrap up every conversation with Shandran. You read a lot. Sounds like you listen to a lot of audiobooks, which I love. Which books these days are you recommending the most to others, or maybe giving to others the most as gifts.

There's so many books I love, but let me tell you three that are more recent reads that I would definitely recommend to people. So, first of all, if you're just interested in these issues around work, like people like you and I are, I would recommend Nine Lies About Work. It's a book by Marcus Buckingham and Ashley Goodall. It's a great book. I won't steal the thunder, but especially if you're someone who challenges conventional norms and the like, you'll like that book, the book the Infinite Game by Simon Sinek. Now, I've read all Simon's books. I really like this last book. I think it challenges people to think differently.

Can you sell me. Can you sell me on this book? Actually, I was at a. I was at an event at Dave Ramsey headquarters a few months ago, and he was saying. Dave was saying that he's now reading this book for the second time, which kind of blew me away. So sell me on this book.

Simon, I believe, gets this right. I think it's one of his best books, because what he distinguishes is that so many leaders today in all forms, whether it's government, whether it's business, whether it's the civic sector, they have what he would describe as a finite approach. And so he used this as an analogy of a game. And he talks about the importance of having an infinite approach because it unlocks creativity. It's thinking internally. And he says, if you don't realize that you're playing an infinite game. Now, he's not saying this in a scriptural or spiritual standpoint, but I think one of the reasons it probably resonates with you, I and Babe, is because it's like having an eternal mindset versus having a temporary.

That's exactly so. That's exactly what drew me in. I read the description. I'm like, I don't. I'm not sure if Simon Sinek is a Christian, but he's talking about the eternal significance of work in a. In a. In a different way. Right.

I just. Knowing many. I mean, the one thing that's interesting about reading your books, you learn a lot about a person by reading their books. So I can tell a lot about you because I know all the things.

You read for reading your books.

Jordan, you'd love it. All right, great.

All right, I'm reading. I'm going. I'm going on vacation a few weeks. That's what I'm going to read.

What does your soul love have? You come across that one By Jim and Alan family.

I have. Yeah, yeah.

So again, I always have to recommend something that's edifying to spiritual growth. So for me, I generally am always reading. I read two books at the same time. And my thing is it's generally always sort of one business book or intellectual book. And it has to be one book that encourages my spiritual development. And so the most recent one I just read was what does your soul love?

I love it. I've actually just now started to read two books at once and I'm basically doing the same thing. So I have a business book I'm reading throughout the week and I have what I call my Sabbath book. Right. So on the weekend when I really want to replenish my soul, I'm reading spiritual development book. All right, next question. What one person would you most like to hear talk about how their faith influences their work?

So, you know, would be interesting. And maybe you came across her book and I read it. Have you seen Deanne Turner's book bet.

On talent from Chick Fil A? I have seen it. I have not read it.

So I read her book. I've never met her personally. I know her story. But if you can get her on the podcast, I'd definitely be interested in hearing her story and more of kind of that one on one interview context because I think she brings an interesting perspective both from the organization that she worked for, which definitely is informed by a strong Christian conviction, but I think also in her role over an extended period of time working as a leader in human resources. I just think those aspects of that coming from a business standpoint and as a believer would be interesting. So she'd be the person I want to hear her story.

That's a terrific answer. And I love a couple of things I love about Diane story. One, she's a woman in a very high profile role within the company. And two, Chick Fil A has a lot of low wage workers. Right. So very interested to hear her talk about pay equity and those types of topics and how her fate. That's a. That's a fantastic answer. All right, last question. What single piece of advice would you leave the audience? Leave us listening to this show? These people who are just trying to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. One nugget of wisdom to leave us with.

The one nugget of wisdom that I would leave. I can't take personal credit for it because it was given to me many years ago both by a mentor and also by my mom and effectively the advice is provide more service than you get paid for. I think so often we look for the extrinsic ways that we get paid. You know, I talk about this in the book. Whether it's money, whether it's recognition, whether it's respect, it's what do I get out of it? But if I don't look at it in context of necessarily being an exchange, I really look to say beyond whatever my strict definition of my role is or whatever I get paid, I'm committed to every day to just doing a bit more and providing more service than I get paid for. I think it will unlock so many things in terms of the capacity that people have. And ultimately two things that you and I both resonate. One, truly finding joy in your work. You know how passionate I feel about that. But also what you said, unlocking that key to mastery, providing more service than you get paid for.

That's a fantastic piece of advice. Hey, Chandron, I just want to commend you, man, for being such a masterful leader every day, serving your employees and employer and shareholders through the ministry of excellence. And thank you for your work and your writing and helping the church more deeply connect the gospel to their work, not just the church helping everybody more deeply connect spiritual truth, gospel centric truth to their work. Hey, guys, the book is Discover Joy in Work. I think it's terrific. I love how gospel centric this read is. Chandran, thank you so much for hanging out with me today, man. I really appreciate it.

Thank you, Jordan.

I was blown away by Chandron and just what he had to say on the topic of leadership and faith and work and joy in our work. I hope you guys enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. Hey, if you're enjoying the Call to Mastery, make sure you subscribe so you never miss an episode in the future. And if you're already subscribed, you know what I'm going to ask you to do already. Take 30 seconds. Please go leave a review of this podcast. I'm shocked at how much these reviews matter. I ask you guys to do this almost every episode, but these reviews really do make a difference. You're actually able to see an uptick in people finding the Call to Mastery after new reviews are posted. So thank you guys for those of you who have already done that. And hey, thanks for listening to the Call the Mastery. I'll see you guys next week.