Stefanie Gass (Host of Online Business for Christian Women)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back.

Guarantee on this book.

I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why?

Two reasons.

One, this is a different book for me, right. I know this is a very different biography. What is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on.

This podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right? So that's the first reason this is.

A risk and I'm gonna de risk.

This book for you.

Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon.

With the pace of a great thriller, this is it.

Highly recommended.

End quote.

But here's the thing. In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5meerchristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all the pre order bonuses listed on 5 mereChristians. Calm and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5merechristians.com right now to sign up.

Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians podcast. Hi, I'm Jordan Raynor.

How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians?

Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as writers Cabinet makers and scientists.

That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to Stephanie Gass. She's a talented corporate executive turned entrepreneur who recently joined me to talk about the how discernment alarms can alert you.

To the work beneath your work.

We talked about how Steph has seen very simple but vulnerable storytelling lead to opportunities to share the gospel. And why dissenting from the kingdom of.

Noise is so critical to your work. I think you guys are going to enjoy this episode with my new friend, Stephanie Gass. Stephanie, welcome to the podcast.

Hey, Jordan. I'm so excited to be here.

Hey, so you got a wild story. By the age of 26, you were the youngest financial controller at this big global company. Fast forward a couple years, 2015, you're in the top 1% of this network marketing business. And I was reading your bio and I love this quote. Now, you said, little did I know how much success was stealing from me. End quote. Around this time. What was. What are you talking about there? What did you mean by that?

Yeah, at that time, I was saved. I was saved at nine. But I had really fallen away from a relationship with Christ throughout my teenage years and throughout my early 20s. And I think, like so many of us, I was searching to fill that void, that discontentment, that feeling of, like, is there more? Is there something I'm missing? And so I found that in success.

It's one of the greatest narcotics in the world.

Exactly. I've been a leader since I was a kid. I'd be the kid on the stage, like, bossing everyone else around. I'm like, john, you're the tree. Stop talking. I'm like 7 years old, just a leader. And so through that gifting, you know, the enemy can use that for. For what he wants to do with it, and then the Lord can use it. And so for me, I was leaning into all the worldly principles of leadership. Right? Like, I'm going to lead this big team because I need to find success. I need to find fulfillment. And I had grown first through corporate America, ended up getting laid off through that job and started in entrepreneurship. And I started working in a network marketing company and realized, you know, bless the industry, but they really play on the emotional side of, like, oh, look, you're so successful. You can be on the stage next and you can win a free car. And, like, I full out was sold out to all that stuff. And so four years of that, Jordan. I mean, I made every excuse in the world about why I should be up at 5 o' clock in the morning, working till 10 at night, taking every phone call. I lived my life with an earpiece attached to my face. As I'm raising my first son, I'm just like, I have to be available for this company, for this business. Like, when I get to this level, this is going to make sense, right? This level of work and effort and success and recognition and the money, like, it's all going to mean something. And so I just went after it with everything that I had, including putting my marriage second, my motherhood second, my health second. And I think what's so interesting is I didn't see the signs that this success was stealing from me. I didn't notice, oh, I'm drinking a lot. I didn't notice that my anxiety was at an all time high. Like, I noticed, but I wasn't putting the pieces together. I call them discernment alarms. Like, I wasn't putting any of these pieces together. And I was far from my faith. Like, I was a Christian, but I was not asking God if I was doing anything out of alignment. So what happened that really made this super obvious to me? The day I made it air quotes and I get to walk the stage in front of 20,000 people at the big conference. I got the $60,000 bonus check in my hands. Like, you know, I'm well over six figures in the company. I'm the top 1% and it's it. And I'm like, this is it. This is this moment that makes all of this worth it. And I walk across the stage and I get off the stage and I remember feeling something. It was the emotion of nothingness. Like, this is it. I'm not different. I'm not filled. I'm not whole. What now? Like, it was almost terrifying because I was expecting the yearning and the hole that I was trying to fill to be gone. And in that moment, you know, everything should have changed. I should have been like, well, this doesn't seem to be working. Let me turn to the Lord. But I didn't because I was. I'm stubborn and I definitely didn't want to. I didn't want to look at the possibility that I had been making the wrong choices for four and a half years. I was like, I can't even look at that. So I went harder, Jordan. I went harder. I got to this place of like, I would wake up with these anxiety attacks multiple times a week to the point of like, physical illness and just the work and the stress and the alcohol and the things that I was turning To. And I started to. I started to pray again. Like, lord, this is like, help take these anxiety attacks away. That's really what I started asking God for help with.

Yeah, fix the symptoms.

Yeah, fix the symptoms, right? Don't we so often look to God when we have a problem to fix? And so I would lay in bed and just pray like, lord, take this away. Take this away. And as I started to pray, something started to shift inside my heart. And I think that it was the invitation God was waiting for to begin the work that was about to happen. And so what happened next is really, really interesting. I went from the top, the pinnacle, the top 1%. And within one year, Jordan, everything fell apart, like, internally, externally, in the business. It was like all the way burned down, like, to the ashes. My team kind of dispersed. I had, I don't know, one to 2,000 people underneath me. They all went to the newest company because of course, they wanted the success that I had. And our income was cut. You know, I was making like 17, 25k months. It was just gone, like, seemingly overnight. We had been living this lifestyle. I had a newborn at this time and my two and a half year old. So I'm struggling with identity in the first place. I'm like, really overweight, not doing well with my food and all my issues. And I remember this moment, I came to my computer and I sat down, I opened the bank account and I looked and realized we didn't have enough money to pay the mortgage. Like, there wasn't any money in there. And my husband had a stable job. But again, like, the lifestyle we had been leading, it just. There was no cash flow. And so I walked out to him in the living room and I said, we can't pay the bills. Like, this isn't like my comp. Like, I didn't make any money this month. And the Lord must have taken over his body because he's like, it's okay. We'll borrow money from Miles, who was our older son, his savings account. We'll pay the mortgage and I'll sell my Harley. It's all good. Like, without a beat, he was just like, so grace fueled. And God had to be moving in that moment because I was already at my absolute rock bottom. And I walked to the bathroom and I just remember staring at this woman in the mirror and like, wondering, who are you? Like, what was this for? Why did you work so hard and, you know, go to all these things and take calls on these family vacations and hustle and like, if it didn't work financially, what was it for? And who are you now? And so that's what I mean when I say success stole from me because it was, it ultimately became something that was, it slipped through my fingers and it showed me all of the ways in which I had turned to to worldly success and still been left with that full emptiness.

Yeah, I've been thinking a lot over the last year or so about this phrase that Tim Carr once wrote about the work beneath our work.

I think he got it from somebody else.

I can't remember who originally side of this, but all of us as believers I think have some God honoring motives for the ambition for our work is what we talk about a lot on this podcast. We should be ambitious for the good works God prepared in advance for us to do.

But there's that evil Dr. Jekyll, Mr.

Hyde thing going on with the less than God honoring ambition, the work beneath our work that really is the thing that leads us to overwork because the Holy Spirit isn't going to lead us to burnout.

Right?

That's something else.

It's like as you look back and you were asking yourself those questions in.

That mirror of like, why did do this? Why did I work myself so hard? In other words, what was the work beneath your work?

What were you trying to get from.

Your work that God never designed your work to give you?

Stephanie yeah, that's such a good question. And for me, I think it was fulfillment. It was thinking that and all everything goes back to our childhood, right? At least in part. And so for me it was when I am recognized, that's when I matter. So, so when I am recognized, when I do something of achievement, it equals love. And so that belief carried through in some form or another all the way through until this very breaking moment. And so for me it was like when I achieve, when I am recognized, it's a form of love in a way. That's what I thought. And that's the lie that the enemy kept feeding into. It was like, oh look, now you matter. Now people think you're important right now people are talking to you like you're so special, you're so loved. And so it's grabbing on to this, this perception or this worldly identity of yourself that you put in something and that something looks different for everybody.

Yeah, it's the work of performance, right? Like that's for me, that's the work beneath my work. I think about My fans are so sick of me quoting Taylor Swift lyrics. I think about this Taylor lyric all the Time, all the time. It's a mastermind where she says, I would argue it's the most autobiographical line she's ever written. It's. No one wanted to play with me as a little kid, so I've been scheming like a criminal ever since to make them love me and make it feel effortless.

Right. It's a work of performance.

Right.

It's what we all want. And the gospel frees us from that because it reminds us that we already have the ability. Applause before the performance. But in my experience, that actually has led me to be more ambitious for the work, not less. Right. Because this makes sense to you.

Preach this for a minute. Yeah.

Yes. Oh, my gosh, I love this so much. So what happened next in. In that story, and that'll kind of lead us into this topic, is I sat down with a notebook and I started journaling with Holy Spirit and God. And I said, lord, like, I don't know who I am. I need your help. I need this vision of what I can do now. Like, I don't know the next step. And so Holy Spirit, literally, I started just flowing, journaling. And there were all these things on this paper, Jordan. Like, you're sober, you're a daughter of the king, you lead a Kingdom business. You know, you're a present mom, present wife. Like, all of these things were on this paper and I had no idea what any of it meant because I had no idea how to even begin.

Journaling's a pretty good place to begin when you're not sure where to begin. P.S.

So good. I didn't even know what Kingdom meant at the time. So it's like I knew that God was in that conversation with me, which is so cool to know. Like, he loves me enough to show up when I have ruined everything. And God says, perfect, that's exactly where I needed you. You're completely broken down and you're ready to be rebuilt. And so what happened over the next few years? It was about a three year journey. Like, just prayer and understanding scripture and starting to read the Bible and fumbling my way through and being really rebuilt from a Holy Spirit forward instead of flesh forward, positioning. And so God took care of my health first, and then my marriage and my parenting. And then finally, as it pertained to business, I just started asking God, like, how do I. I know I'm supposed to be an entrepreneur. I know I'm supposed to. Like, I have these huge dreams and these huge visions, but now I'm scared. I'm afraid to become that Former version of myself, but because I was partnered with him. What was so interesting is as I took each little step and I would pray over it and not in an afraid way. I always gave God my yes, but I was just discerning through different things I was doing and working with God and it trusting him. What happened is God would just open a door. Like people would just say, do you coach? And I'm like, I think so. God, do we coach? Okay, I coach. Let's go. And so I started coaching and then, lord, how am I going to grow a bigger audience? Like, this is. I'm struggling. And I heard I had a dream start, a podcast. And so God was leading the way. And so what's crazy about this? I am more on fire for work and income, serious income for the kingdom of God. I'm like, God, I'm here. Like, I want to make a difference for kids and I want to make a difference for animals and for the place that I live and for homelessness in a meaningful way and salvation and I want to do these incredible things that take real, true income. I'm unafraid and unapologetic about quote, unquote success now in such a bigger, more meaningful way than I ever was when it was about me, God.

Well, because when it's about you, you.

Have more to lose.

Yeah, that's so true.

Right? Like, if I'm using my work as a means of securing my identity, then if I fail, I no longer have a self. But when we are beloved children of God in whom he is well pleased before we go onto the stage, now.

I have nothing to lose. And it makes me ambitious and it drives me to do the good works.

God prepared in advance for me to do. Ephesians 2, 10.

But in a God honoring way that.

Values rest in a sane pace that allows me to keep up with my soul, with the Holy Spirit in this and the Spirit's promptings, my life. Is that right?

Oh, 100%. I mean, the way that God has perfectly balanced out my life, Like, I'm able to stop working at 3. I don't work on the weekends. I have a team now. I have an internship program. Like what? You know, like when it was all about me, it was hard and terrifying and full of striving and hustle and like you said, the fear and the anxiety around, like I'm carrying everything on my shoulders. And now it's a complete, complete, complete 180. You would have no idea. I'm the same person, let alone the same business owner. You know what? Six, seven short years later, it's God just moving and allowing me to be a vessel. Instead of having me carry all that weight, I'm just showing up today to do the work and then I know he's going to take care of tomorrow. And it's been such a cool way to like fall into that trusting place. But also that ob, I think when you partner obedience and trust in your business, that's when that favor really starts to happen and appear and the blessings go in all areas of your life because of it.

I want to talk about an area.

Of obedience that from what I can read from the outside looking in, looks to be specific to you.

Right.

So you eventually start this new business. You're helping educate other women on how to replicate your success and learn from your mistakes.

But you talk in your bio about.

The pressure you felt to always be on, on social media to make the business work.

And you felt pretty strongly that God.

Was calling you to a different way.

And it sounds like when I'm reading.

Your story, that was an issue of obedience for you.

Park there for a minute. Take us inside of that struggle and.

What you felt the Lord leading you to at that moment in your business.

Yeah, so when I started rebuilding the business, the answer was social media, right? Like, I've got to build an account on Instagram and I've got to build a Facebook account. That's how I'm going to grow. That's really what I thought. I looked around, saw everybody doing that and figured that's going to be the way. And so I started really intentionally working to grow Instagram. I would take photos of my kids to resonate and then I would look for opportunity, create content. Doing all these things and really being brutally honest was spending about five to six hours a day on the platform at that point. And it had grown pretty tremendously. 40,000 followers. 750 likes per post. Had 5, 6, 700 people watching the stories. And it's cool, okay, this must be the way. But my heart, I started to feel this disrest and this discomfort around constantly having my phone in my hand, number one. Number two, I felt like I was capitalizing on my kids. And at this point I was yoked up with God. I was really growing spiritually. And I started praying like, lord, I don't understand how I'm supposed to keep growing and getting coaching clients if I don't use social media. And you know, God, I kind of started feeling the whispers, I feel the discernment alarms again. But I'm Stubborn again. So I go on vacation. But I had been praying, and you know how God is. He'll answer your prayer. And sometimes the way that you don't expect. We go on vacation and Jordan, my phone breaks. Like, real weird kind of break. Like, just goes black, won't turn on. We're in a rural part of Minnesota and I can't get a new phone, figure anything out. And I tell my husband, I'm like, I need to use your phone to grow my Instagram. He's like, do you realize that you want to use my phone on vacation? Like, let it go. And I was like, let it go, addict. Yeah, okay, you're right. You're right. I'm going to let it go. We got four days left. I can do this. Well, I'm like, itching. Like, it's real apparent. Like, okay, I've maybe I'm addicted again to this app. Like, what's happening here? I'm not feeling. And so I just kept pushing through about 24 hours. In Jordan, something started to happen to me. I felt like this peace drop in. And I felt like I could just play without having the filter of, should I capture this right now? I was just fully present, and it had been years since I felt like I could just be fully present. And I had thought I was doing this in alignment with God. But what God was revealing to me is that there was still a little bit of me in there, and he was asking me to take a break from it. So what I started to do is I started deleting the apps on the weekends. I would delete Facebook, I would delete Instagram, and I would tell my audience about it. I had. I think I had started a podcast at this point already. So I'm telling the audience, like, okay, I'm getting off this weekend. This is how I feel, you guys, when I'm doing it. It's crazy. Well, people started to do it with me and I started to get this feedback. Well, this went on for like a year and a half. And I was a huge advocate. Like, just delete the apps on the weekends. Watch your life transform. It's crazy. And so about a year and a half in, I was praying about maybe doing a fast. Couldn't figure out what to fast over. And the Lord clearly said, social media. And I'm like, but I'm already doing the weekends, God. Like, you know, I'm like, still scared to fully step in. So I did a month, and I told my audience on my podcast, I said, I'm going to do a month. We're going to see what happens. Does everything fall apart? What does God do? Right? So I do this month. I come back. First of all, how I felt internally is indescribable. The time I got back, oh, my gosh, five hours a day. Like, I had time, I had peace, I loved it. I didn't want to go back. So I look at the numbers. Podcast is up, revenue is up. God had brought in a new team member that I had been praying for. Like, there was favor on this obedience. And I said, I'm doing six months. Let's see what happens. The email list explodes, the podcast explodes. Everything is growing. And I had the time and the bandwidth to then do another podcast a week, which ultimately, really for me is how I teach people to grow a business, is to use podcasting. And so I get into Instagram. Here's the kicker. Like, eight months later, we're like, okay, let's see what happened. Zero engagement, Zero. Like, the stories were completely gone. Tried posting a few things, nothing. And for me, that was the bow on the gift, because it was like, I'm not sad about this. It's confirming. It confirms to me that five hours a day to build this thing for years results in it is gone overnight. So why am I here? And then that just had me asking questions of myself and my audience, of like, if you're doing what you're doing, why are you doing it? Because you're making money, making an impact, making a difference. Are you doing it because you think you have to? And so that opened a door to, like, this whole movement, this whole thing. I'm still off of Instagram. We don't have any of the new fancy socials. I don't post on Twitter, nothing for my business. And I'm a seven figure business owner. It's crazy.

Yeah.

Here's a little bit your story though, right? Like, and I've heard you tell before, you're not saying social media is evil. You're not saying it's wrong for everyone. You're saying God had convicted you. It was wrong for you.

Right. And I think this is the broader.

Principle for our listeners, whether it's social media or any other tool.

I think a lot of our listeners.

Feel like there are certain things I have to do to be successful at.

Work as an entrepreneur or barista, whatever.

It is they do.

But a lot of times that conflicts.

With scripture overtly or the Holy Spirit's promptings and specific convictions for them. What advice would you give to that listener?

Yeah, so how it started for me was really, I think when we're so busy, we're missing all of the clues of what God's trying to say. So I had to create the space, right? The let's get off on weekends of this thing in my life that I think God is asking me to take some space from whatever that might be. Like, I need breathing room so I can hear from God. So create the breathing room number one and whatever it is that thing might be. The second thing is, I think God is so good. Like, he took me in baby steps because it was really terrifying to think I'm just not going to use social media in my business. Like, like, that was a really big crazy. Like, maybe, like, oh, I'm just. I'm going to be sober. Like, maybe that's not something you're. That's possible for you right now. Okay, what's step one? Like, I took baby steps in that process. And every time I would hear God in the next step, I didn't allow myself to overthink it or to minimize it or to validate why I shouldn't. I just said, okay, and I took quick action. If you take quick action, it keeps you from overthinking and stop and not taking action at all. So those are my tips on that. And then the last thing is knowing that every single time God has, you go against something of the world or go against something that you think you must do or need to do or can't stop because you're willing to show yourself that you will trust God's way more than the world's way. There is fruit and favor and blessing every single time on that outcome. So it's worth it.

That second piece of taking quick action. Think about this Randy Alcorn quote all the time. Nothing is more fleeting than the moment of conviction. And I think there's listeners right now who are like, man, I'm convicted. I need to give up that sales tactic or I need to give up my phone, or I need to give up social, or I need to give up whatever it is that is distracting me from the Lord or tempting me in the work. Nothing's more fleeting than the moment of conviction. Take quick action. Take quick action. Hey, so today you describe your calling as helping others do business with God and for God. What is the with piece look like for you personally?

Yeah, so I used to think that having a relationship with God meant I had to sit down and have my morning routine and get in scripture and be. And it is still that. But. And then I Would at night, get back in the zone and, like, let me get back with you, God. And as our relationship evolved and journaling was such a powerful way for me to start opening those doors, to recognize, like, oh, God's like, Holy Spirit's right here with me. Like, working through this issue, I started to remove any of the barriers or the beliefs that I have around what it should look like. And I just started talking to God all day. Like, the moment that I feel myself in my humanness, you know, like, ooh, that makes me feel jealous. Or, well, she shouldn't have that. I'm like, lord, let's pray for that person. Like, maybe I'm frustrated with something going on in my personal life. Like, I'll just cry into the dishes and talk to God about it. Like, there's no moment that he is unavailable for me now. And I've just recognized that the more I. I just allowed it to be part of every minute of my life. First it started as an intention, and then it became routine for me, and now it's a desire of my heart because of the way it's changed me so much. So that's what I mean by with God. It's like an actual interactive partnering with him and the decisions and the prayer life and every waking moment, first thing I think of when I wake up is, like, the Lord, really, truly, and I'm not just saying that. And it's become just inherently a piece of who I am.

How do you think you form that habit of thinking first of the Lord when you get out of bed in the moment?

Yeah. So what I would do is, again, like, when we think of the all or none of principle, we fail every time. Like, I want that. I want to do that. That's. But, like, tomorrow you wake up and forget about God, and I. You failed. Right. Like, so what we have to do is we have to have it stack. And what I mean by that is, what can I do this week? That's one step to this big picture vision of who I want to be. Right. That woman on the paper that I now, I am her. It took me six years of intentional habit stacking to become her. And so I would focus one week on, I'm just gonna get up at 6, here's how it started, and spend 15 minutes with God. Today. That's the first thing I ever did. And then the next week, it was, okay, 20 minutes, 30 minutes. Oh, now I'm gonna set a timer three times a day to pray. Like, it wasn't natural, right? Like, it it took me making a decision to grow in my relation. God was always there, ready and excited about it. But I had to sometimes take that step, step in order to craft and create the habit that then became natural for me. Does that make sense?

Yeah, totally, 100%. I mentioned this to you before we start recording. So I record this podcast one day a month. We do four to five episodes. I do them back to back, 30 minute break in between. And almost always there is a theme throughout those episodes that was not planned or expected. It wasn't brought about by a question that I planted in all four interviews. Here's what it is. Today I was just talking with Anne Byler, founder of Annie Ann's Pretzels, right before I got on the phone with you. And she was talking about over complicating the presence of God.

And it's what you're talking about. So you're talking about setting up habits and that can be complicated, whatever.

But what I love about what you're.

Saying is with God is not, not.

Necessarily is not confined to your quiet times in the morning. It is an all day everyday thing. And that doesn't cheapen the presence of God. It doesn't diminish the presence of God. In fact, it magnifies that he is everywhere all the time with us wherever we go. See Joshua 1:9.

And that just makes the with God piece of our work feel so much more accessible. Right.

I don't want listeners to miss that theme that's coming up in these episodes.

All right, let's go to the other.

Piece of this though. You're encouraging women to do business with God and for God and take off your entrepreneur hat for a second. Like go back into corporate America. Pretend you were back working as a controller at this big company you were at.

What would it look like in that.

Role to work for God instead of for Stephanie?

Beyond sharing the gospel with your co.

Workers, that one's fairly obvious.

Beyond that, how can you do that?

Work for God?

You know, this makes me think of a situation where recently, and this translates into our work too, where as Christians, you know, I personally felt like I was awful at evangelism. I would say to, I'm like, I am awful at evangelism. Like, I can't get any. Like, man, I can't do it. I got this influx of emails, Jordan, from people who said I was an atheist. And because you said blank thing or I didn't know what I believed. And then you talked randomly about this story when you did this thing and I was like, oh my gosh, this is not about me being a overt Christian in all the things that I do as a controller in a solar company or as a teacher or whatever it is that we do in our daily life. This is about me dropping into vulnerability and being willing to just share all the trials and tribulations and the things I've walked through with an undertone of God help me through that. Like that storytelling allows people to see themselves in you, right? In me. And so if I was back in corporate America, in the mindset and the heart space that I am now, you know, of course I'm going to be the salt and the light. But what does that actually mean? And to me it would mean I'm going to befriend people no matter who they are, no matter what they do, no matter what their issues, their personality, their political affiliation. Like, it doesn't matter. I'm going to befriend you and be kind to you, be a listening ear to you, have the heart for you. And if you ask me a question about something I've walked through or, or an experience that I've had, I'm just going to, in my mind, go, Holy Spirit, go, Holy Spirit, go and share and allow that story to be whatever it needs to be to the person that God so divinely placed in front of me in my work or in the drop off line at school or at the soccer practice. Like, that's what it means to be the salt and the light again. It's not over complicating the conversation.

What keeps us from being vulnerable like that at work.

It's about us again. So same thing you said earlier, Jordan. When we make it about us, like, oh, they're going to think bad of me. You know, if somebody hears me say like, I used to drink too much, they're going to think bad of me. No, no, no, it's not about me at all. It's about the fact that God freed me from thinking I had to drink alcohol to have fun. That's what it's about. And for some reason God wants me to say that right now. Let's go. Like, this isn't about me. So it's that mindset shift in the perspective to you feel, the prompting, you know what I'm talking about. It's like the words are bubbling open your mouth and he shall fill it, right? You feel it and you're like, I can't say that because it's vulnerable, because someone will judge me, because they'll think poorly of me. But the reality is that's Holy spirit using a story and a thing that you've walked through to potentially start freeing someone else. So having that, grab that and I just go, you open my mouth and feel it, Lord, and know that. You know what's funny? Just to give this some proof, the second I started opening up, I opened up first on my podcast, started talking about stuff, personal things I had gone through, right? Like the alcohol and failing at a business and all these like things that I would be open about. That's when I felt complete peace. I finally felt full out peace. There was no secrets to who I was. There was no secrets to things I had failed at and I didn't care. I'm like, let my mother in law listen, whatever, like maybe it'll bless her. And I just removed any thoughts or feelings around the fear of man. I just had to push through it because I was afraid. Do not like I was afraid of the fear of man. But once I did did it and I ripped off the band aid and I took that, that action with the courage of the Lord. When I got to the other side, I felt absolute complete peace drop in and I knew it was right. And now I look for opportunity to be vulnerable.

Yeah, that's so good. You mentioned this phrase a couple times that I love, discernment alarms. So we're here in present day. You've traveled this road of, of the Lord, freeing you from the work beneath.

Your work that never goes away completely.

Like there's always a temptation to perform, Right.

What are the discernment alarms?

What does that sound like? What does it look like?

How do you spot the work beneath.

Your work before it yet again becomes this soul crushing problem?

Yes. I'm so glad you asked this. It's really the fruit. So when you look at the fruit that you're producing, this comes in many forms. So for me, it might be an emotional, like I'm noticing that I'm negatively competitive, or I notice like jealous tendency, or I notice that I'm frustrated that my family's interrupting my work. It's like these emotional little sirens, if you will, that are not from God, right. And you know those. And I think a lot of times we minimize it, but for me, I go, ooh, hold on, what is that? I'm like, immediately, let me look at that. Let me lay that at the feet of Jesus real quick because it will escalate, it will continue to snowball. So that's one thing. And on the other side we have like the actual physical, tangible Fruit. I notice that something is just not working. Like, it's not. No matter how hard I try, it's just not working. And if I rewind back a minute, did I pray over this action that I took? Did I pray over saying yes to this investment before I did it? And when I look like, oh, no wonder that investment failed. Like, I didn't actually partner with God in making that decision. So those alarms are things you can feel. They're emotional, and they're also often physical. Fruit. And nothing's wrong with any of it. It's simply just for me. I believe Holy Spirit showing me that we just need to make a very small tweak, a small adjustment so that I can be on that clear path that God already set. Because it's easy for us to pop off the path. The enemy wants to derail us. The world is falling like life. You know, we're humans, and so we eat. But I don't want to get too far off the path. I'm okay with falling off, but I'm like, lord, I want to remedy this as quickly as possible. So thank you for that alarm. Let's get back on the path.

Yeah, that's good. You mentioned one of those alarms is like, unhealthy sense of comparison or competition. I just wrote a devotional series on this a few weeks ago on ways to escape the comparison trap. How do you escape this? What biblical truths are you preaching to yourself that free you from an unhealthy level of competition in comparison?

Yeah. I have to remind myself that, you know, Romans 12, go ahead and be who we were made to be without enviously or pridefully comparing ourselves to each other or trying to be something we aren't. It's about remembering that I am created to help this perfect, predetermined, incredible group of people that God has called me to. And that's all I need to worry about. If I start looking at somebody else's journey or calling or success, that's an enemy tactic to distract you from the people that are already there praying for you. And. And so that's like the bigger worldview con or biblical concept. But tactically, I capture it super fast. And I pray. I'm like, lord, I don't wanna feel this way. And actually, Lord, I pray for more favor on that person's life. And sometimes it's through gritted teeth, you know, like. Like, we don't wanna. But as I'm praying it, my heart shifts, my heart posture changes. So it's push through and, like, be okay with Okay, I feel jealous. I feel competitive right now. And so a little bit of that. I think it's okay. It's good to push you, but when you find yourself obsessively looking at it or it's making you feel bad inside, praying, surrendering it, and then pray for the person to have even more knowing. There is infinitely enough of God's blessing for everyone. And it's always his timing and it's always his vision. And so that surrendering into God has you where you are on purpose. I'll say this last piece on this part. If I had had the success today, six years ago, I wasn't prepared for it. I wasn't right in my mindset, my heart. My marriage wasn't like, now we're so stuck. My parenting, like God knew and went before me enough to realize that I needed to grow as a person in my spiritual walk with him before I was able to to shepherd and steward what he has for me now. So also the trust of his timing is so key.

Yeah. And that can be a part of the story that we share with others. Like, hey, I thank God for this failure. That'll raise eyebrows. Like, what are you talking about? No, I thank God for this because it helped me recognize that nothing but Christ will ever satisfy me.

Right.

And praise God and that that's winsome in a world that is starving, hungering for something to fill the God shaped void inside of their hearts. Right, Steph, three questions we wrap up every conversation with. Number one, which books do you find yourself recommending or gifting most frequently to others? Like if I looked at your Amazon order history, what keeps popping up over and over again?

Yeah, well, the first one, hands down, is Sacred Marriage. This book, if you are married or want to get married in the future, this book blessed my marriage so much. It really is such a beautiful book that helps us recognize that marriage isn't meant to be easy. Marriage is meant for us to become holy. That's really what the message is. It's so tactical. Anyway, that one, that's Gary Thomas, right? Yes, Gary Thomas. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Any book by Bob Goff I just love. I think Bob Goff is such a great book for people who aren't sure if they believe, who aren't sure what they think about. They have religious trauma. Like a Bob Goff book is gonna just bless people. So love that. And then the third one that we gift all the time as a company is the NIV or the NLT version of the Bible. Especially to new people who are just Growing in their faith. Scripture is really overwhelming. They have no idea where to start, what book to get. And so what I do is we buy people NLT versions which are super easy to understand. And we put a sticky tab in the New Testament and it says, start here.

Yeah, that's good. That's good. Hey, who do you want to hear on this podcast talking about how the gospel shapes the work they do?

You know, I really thought about this question and prayed about this question. No one name came to mind, but I really felt a conviction around teachers. Right now I'm just looking at people I know and school systems and the news and all these things, and I know that teachers are falling away super fast from public school system. And I would love, love, maybe you have this already, but especially now with what we're facing to hear from teachers and people that are in the space of serving kids, parents who aren't believers. Right. And struggling. How are they staying in it? How are they not giving up? How are they not running from this thing that they're called to do, even though everything seems to be against them? I just felt in my heart like there was. If you're listening and that's you, reach out to Jordan's team, because I feel like that's such. I would love to hear that message and for you to be an encouragement to other people that are in that position for sure.

Well, I've got an episode for you. I'm going to send it to you. One of my best friends, her name is Christy Adams. You guys can search back through the podcast archive to find it. She had middle school teacher and we talked exactly about that. That for the first time in her career has been thinking about, oh, man, this is hard. Like, I don't know if I want to do this anymore. But she's staying for all the right reasons. It's one of my favorite episodes we've ever done. We're 200ish episodes deep into this thing, and it's one of the best ones we've ever done. Hey, what's one thing from our conversation, Stephanie? Do you want to reiterate to our listeners before we sign off?

Well, one you said is that we don't need to over complicate the presence of God in our work and all the things that we do. But the other one I feel really convicted about, especially now more than ever, is that the enemy is constantly working through busyness and distraction to steal from you. And I want you to recognize that we are not blind unless we're choosing to be Blind and taking off. Right? I always say, like, open my spiritual eyes, Lord, let me see the places that I am being deceived, that I am being distracted, that I am. That the enemy is working against the calling over my life. You have full authority in the power of Jesus Christ to take back control, to inventory your idols, to diminish addiction, and not to minimize that, but to at least have God an invitation into that battle, into the emotional discernment alarms that we talked about today. Clues are everywhere. And so we have to inventory those clues. We have to then go read Psalms chapter 18. There's seven steps in that chapter to tell you how to battle this thing. But it's we. We inventory it, we call God into it. God weakens our enemies, we get equipped and we go to battle. We fight, we win victoriously. So it's. Don't allow the blindness to keep you in a position of feeling stuck or empty. It's time for you to see and rise up into that authority and take that back.

Yeah, and it's really hard to do that when we are drowning in the kingdom of noise. I talk a lot about this in redeeming your time. I mean, there's a reason why on almost every single page of the Gospels, we see Jesus withdrawing to a lonely or a solitary place.

Given the finite amount of time on.

Earth, it is staggering how much time Jesus spent in quiet solitude. It just stands in stark contrast to the way that so many of us live our lives. And by God's grace, I put a lot of practices in place where that's not a huge problem for me. But I still see to my friends and it pains me. Yeah, we're not blind unless we choose to be blind. And noise is blinding us from the things that God is doing oftentimes in and around our work. Hey, Stephanie, I want to commend you for listening well to the Holy Spirit, for doing excellent work every day for the glory of God and the good of others, for reminding us that God's ways are not always the world's ways, and for reminding us that our worth is in Christ alone. Guys, you can learn more about Stephanie Guest.

Check out our podcast, the Stephanie Gast Show.

We did an episode on your podcast a while back which was super fun.

So good.

Just search Stephanie Gas and Jordan Rayner. You can find it. Hey, Stephanie, thanks for hanging out with us today.

Thank you for having me, Jordan.

Hey, if you're enjoying the Mere Christians podcast, do me a favor. Take 30 seconds right now to go leave a review of the show on Apple, podcasts, on Spotify, wherever you listen to the show. Thank you guys so much for tuning in. I'll see you next week. Foreign.

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