Stephen Bargatze (Magician)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back.

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End quote.

But here's the thing. In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on 5 mereChristians. Calm and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5merechristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I Jordan, I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as Critical care nurses, tile setters and technical writers. That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to Steven Bargozzi, the world class magician who has spent 40 years mastering his craft. Today, of course, Stephen is best known as the father of Nate Bargazi, the wildly popular comedian whom Stephen has been touring with over the last year. Stephen and I sat down and had a terrific conversation about what it means to him that Satan had no idea what Nate Borgozzi would become. We talked about how magic can create awe and wonder, that that leads to belief in God. And Stephen shared the terrifically emotional story about this gospel centered shift he made in his mind that he credits God using for the salvation of his mother on her deathbed. Trust me, you are not going to want to miss this episode with my new friend, Stephen Margazi.

Steven Bargozzi, welcome to the Mere Christians podcast.

I am glad to be here. I'm glad you can pronounce my name. That's pretty good.

Well, there's competing things on the Internet about the pronunciation of your name. I heard Nate do a whole bit.

On Bergetsey versus Bergazzi.

Yeah, it's actually a little bit of both. It's Borghetzy.

Borghetzy.

But Jimmy Fallon messed it up and so our whole family goes, well, I guess that's what we are now.

Whatever Jimmy Fallon says, that's what you'll be known as for the rest of your life. I told you before we started recording, I saw you in Tampa open for.

Your son a few months back on this tour you guys have been on.

I swear, you almost stole the show from Nate.

It was just so wonderful.

I don't think that I hear that a lot, and I don't. I'm a nice surprise. So when I come on people the bars love. Yeah. They go, oh man, his dad here drilled or really? He. He does magic too. Wow. And then they find out I'm not as bad as they thought. They felt like, all right, we can, we can put up with this for a little while and then go, so I'm the surprise, but you're the surprise.

Surprise.

I don't think that I'm. I steal anything from Nate or anything like that.

I love. Is there a story from this most recent tour that you're like, oh man, I'm lord willing, going to be telling.

This story until the day I die.

It started off, it was great and it was everything I would hope it would be and fun. I work hard not to be the old man on the Tour, you know, but I'm not like them. They like they. Nathan and them. They like to stay up late and fall asleep and wake up in the city ready to go lunch and do it all again. I don't want to be asleep before the bus leaves, so. But I have, you know, I don't want to be that. You know, I'm just the old man with a CPAC on the bus. I want to play games and do the stuff that they do. So I did worked on that. Then Saturday Night Live came and that was a game changer.

Yeah.

Why it was a game changer? Cause we were doing God. I mean God has just been so good to our family and our family. I mean I tell this up there, we can take no credit. I mean we're just a family. And everybody think Nathan's very, very funny. He's a great storyteller, but he's also just a reporter. Everything he's saying is true. He's not making these stories up. They're really there. He just tells them in a good way. But I have an above ground koi pond and I did burn my house while he was in on Saturday, all this stuff. So. But we were working so hard. We were doing two shows a day everywhere we go. Oh, you know what? This, we should. He started seeing, well, I think I can sell arenas out. We only have to do, not necessarily sell them out, just do arenas. And then we would only have to do the one show on Friday and Saturday and that would be good for all of us. And. And then Saturday Night Live came and we started doing two arenas a night and it was just like ah Lee. And so. And then everybody wants a piece of Nathan now. And all my people out there, if you're prayers, pray for my family. Because I think so often this is what I learned this week in my devotions and stuff. I was looking at that Satan, he's not God. He didn't know when Nathan was born what he was going to be today. God knew Satan didn't and if he did, he would have probably came after my family a lot sooner. But now that Nathan's getting all the success and he's doing Nateland production where we're trying to do a company where if you have that label, you know this is good clean content and know all that. So that's going to change everything. He's being asked for movies and stuff and he's, he's telling them, no, I'm not. This is, these are roles I won't do and this is What I, you know, he had an offer for a sitcom and they wanted to change everything. He wanted his brother to be gay. His brother's a missionary at that time. He wrote it as a missionary and it was funny stuff in there. My son, the missionary has four children and he was in Uganda. I always said, because there's not a lot to do in Uganda and they just have kids. So there's fun stuff in even that life. But they were going, no, he needs to be homosexual and your daughter has to be a liberal and all that. And Nathan stood up to that and said no. And he walked away from a sitcom. And I've never been prouder at that moment for him to have done that. But now they're back, we're being hunted as a family. We're being attacked all over the place and people are looking in it and it's becoming very stressful. I ask for prayer for my family during this time that we can stay strong because I think we're on Satan's radar now.

Well, I will commit to praying for that.

I'm sure a lot of our listeners will.

It's an interesting insight though. I love that insight of, yeah, God.

Knew the plans he had for Nate.

Satan didn't. God is sovereign, Satan is not.

And that's for every Christian out there. I mean, he doesn't know what is in store for you, but God does.

That's right. So, Stephen, of course today you're most well known as Nate's dad, but you're world class magician in your own right. I was reading your bio. You're a quote, International Brotherhood of Magicians champion. Which sounds fake, but your publicist promised me this is real. So, I mean, you spent 40 years.

Years mastering this craft, right?

I was a special ed student. I was attacked by a bulldog when I was little. And some people probably think, well, this connection, this guy sounds weird. No, this is the way I sound. And I've always had a speech impediment and had problems in school and stuff like that. So I had a teacher that used magic as a way to me to read and wanted to do stuff like that. So it was just the one thing that I could do. And I've always loved it. And you know, I used to meet. I started off as a clown. Nathan's first album was yelled at by a clown. That was all true. I had plastic surgery in my mouth and on my tongue from the dog when the dog bit me. And I always say, well, most of that is my butt now, but it looks good. I Just have bad breath a lot. So what I did is when I first started trying to do this stuff, people would ask me, are you making fun of. Are you talking that way? Or did you know you spit on that lady and all that stuff? I go, yeah, I know, but. So I just incorporated it into my story. And believe it or not, I met several magicians. One of my good friends and a guy named Jason Michaels, who used to be another guy I used to talk to one day has Tourette syndrome. And he grew up believing that he could never talk about it because it would be like a weakness. And I go, no, you talk about it. You can help. I mean, there's people out there, might not be to us, but it's something that we're going through. You may not talk funny, but you can overcome. And I mean, look at, I was a kid that wouldn't talk in school, wouldn't do anything, and Now I entertain 20,000 people because of me at one time.

It's a very Moses like story, right? Hey, I'm stuttering, but God's going to use me. And when he does, God's going to get the glory, not me.

Hey, I'm curious.

I think you're kind of going here already, naturally.

But why do you think God delights.

In the work you do as a magician?

Because a lot of Christians are like, evil, get out of here. Right, but I'm assuming you believe you're a serious follower.

Jesus, I've read your interviews before.

Why do you think God delights in your vocation?

You know what? Because of the path he took me to. When I first became to know the Lord, the pastor that the church I went forward into, I always say I went down more because of Price is Right than I did the gospel at that time. I just saw people going forward and I go, I wondered what was going on. I didn't really hear the gospel like they thought. Or maybe I heard it because I felt the Holy Spirit, but I didn't understand it. So I went down in this church and they just said, okay, you're a Christian, good job, no more cussing, no drinking. You gotta quit wearing your clothes, cut your hair, take that earring out. It was all this stuff I had to do. And I thought I was okay with that because I didn't really have a regular father at home, was a very alcoholic, abusive family. But so I thought, all right, this is what it means to have a father and I'll have to do all this stuff. And so I just spent pretty good while trying to earn his love, trying to, you know, be the perfect Christian and stuff. And one of the things he did was he told me magic was evil and wrong and you should get rid of it. And I had a pretty good collection of magic and. And I g it all away. I just walked away from it. And I don't regret it to this day. I know I needed to at that time. I was young enough. I was putting all my resource, all my time, all my money into buying tricks and trying to get this thing going. And it was very much an idol to me without me knowing even what that means. But I was just putting so much effort. Everything was like thinking about that God had to see if I would offer it up to him. And I was willing to do that.

So how did you come back to it?

We were starving. There was a little restaurant called Bennigan's in Nashville, Tennessee, and they had a Halloween thing for a month, and it was just to come and do card tricks. And I go, I can. I can remember some card tricks. But I also saw Andre Cole, which was. He did Campus Crusade for Christ. I saw him. I got his book and read that and read a little bit about the true. You know, the word magician and how it got in the Bible. And it's really a sorcerer, someone that makes potions and drugs and did spells and stuff. We should beware of Walgreens, not magicians. But he said that King James was fooled by a magician with sleight of hand. And he thought it was a trick I do with a ball up underneath. A big ball comes under a cup. And he said, I must have been. Put me in a spell. I woke up and the ball was there. And so he was the one that said, we're going to put magicians in there with that. But magicians weren't called magicians. They were ledgermans. This is all from Andre Cole. They were like jesters. And they would actually go do little Bible school or whatever it is in the summer. I can't think of now.

Vacation Bible school.

Vacation Bible school. And. But they would explain and they will go, here's a trick. It's a trick. This is not real. These people are not doing real things. And they.

This isn't witchcraft.

Yeah. This is to share the gospel. And so it's really. That's what you know. So it kind of opened my mind. I go, all right, we need money. And I went and did card tricks and was paid like a hundred dollars a night, which was a fortune back in the 80s. And so I got that. And then I gradually, all right, well, maybe I can do children's parties and do that. And then God just kind of carried me through all of this. Now with Nate, you know, he's got a combo. I think it's interesting what's happening. This is the story I'll always tell. I have a good friend named Taylor Hughes that was doing a trick, and I was looking at it, and he was telling me, Nathan started doing shows in the round, and in the round, that's not great for a magician. So there was a lot. It eliminated probably 80% of the stuff I do. I said, I can't do that. There are people all the way around me unless I say. All right, section l close your eyes for 30 seconds.

Kind of ruins the magic.

Yeah, you're gonna love this. He had a great trick, but it's not funny. I couldn't really show off how the comedy in my act. I do couple tricks that are just very, very funny people, I think. Did I do the Ruby's Cube when you saw me in the bottle? Yeah, that's the new trick. But I did it for the first time. And I talked to Nate all about this. I said, I mean, whether they understand or not, I'm telling them that this is the gospel, that we were made for a purpose, and we are doing exactly what we need to do. And it was. I said, it's not going to be as funny as anything else I do. But you know what? You have four, three comics on the show. I think that I can be a little serious and just kind of stand up for our family and just say, you know, for the people listening, the idea is Rubik's Cube in a bottle. It's all mixed up. You allowed one to get mixed up by the audience, and you fake solving it. And you talk about this is what life looks like on the. On Instagram, on Facebook and on podcast. It sounds all great and everything, but I show that I didn't really fix the one they mixed up. Bring it out. And I say, but this is the baguette. This is our life and stuff. And you're only here because. Not because we're perfect. You wouldn't bought those tickets. You're here because my family's all this. And you just want to feel better about your family. So at least. Well, not that. But then I say, but God has a plan. In all our unperfectness and all the things going on, all the things that took me to this moment, that brought me right here today, and now you show that the one that they mixed up matches the one that was in the bottle that's been there the whole time and every side matches. And it's just that there's a purpose. And I'm not trying to slap him in the head or anything, but I know all the believers in the audience, and I think there's a lot. They get it. Exactly what I have, but I've had those are. I want to say his name, but I want a very funny comic guy that was just wandering with God into stuff. And I said, it's a God thing. And he wrote and asked me, you know, what is this God thing? And not being able to talk to him. And he said he's prayed to receive Christ. And we talk almost every day. And just that little comment.

I love it.

I love how bold you are about.

Your faith on stage, but you're not.

Beating people's head over a stick with the gospel. It's not vacation Bible school.

I do think that in order for.

Our hearts to even be receptive to.

The gospel, I think we must first.

Be receptive to wonder and awe.

Right.

Like, isn't that what magic does?

Right.

Like you're awakening people's sense of. What a random question.

Did you watch the Crown on Netflix by chance?

No. And sounds like something I need to watch.

It's really great. The story of Queen Elizabeth ii. And in season six, she has this line, I just pulled it up.

Oh, my. You know what? My wife watches that.

Does she watch it?

You should find this episode, all that stuff.

I'll send you this particular episode. But Queen Elizabeth says, quote, monarchy isn't rational.

When people brush up against us, they want the magic and the mystery and the transcendent. They want to feel like they've entered another world.

That is our duty, to lift people.

Up and transport them into another realm. End quote.

And I think that's what you do as a magician.

Yeah. You know what? It's play. Yeah. I am. I'm allowing that, that we all want that. And, you know, you said in the beginning, the joy and God go back in the new magic for people. And what does God have joy in us? Yes. Yeah. But I have joy in him, and I'm able to share that joy with laughter and just. Just a fun night out with your whole family. You can watch my son and you can watch my show, and with your kids right beside you, you say, this is comedy. This is what it's about. I just spent a week in Vegas and I did a whole show. But God can sit right There in that chair, he is. And no matter whether I believe it or not, he's there. But I'm not embarrassed. And if my, you know, my pastor came in, came to one of my shows in Vegas, I just fill in. But if he came there, I'm not embarrassed. I'm not ashamed.

I like that criteria. It makes God's presence a little bit more concrete. It's like, would my pastor approve of the show? That's interesting. Hey, you brushed past something a few minutes ago.

I want to come back to.

You talked about you spent a lot.

Of time on the road throughout your career. Right.

And you talked about you use the word pitfalls.

So how did you discern the right balance of being home with Nate, the kids, your wife, and being on the road and doing this work that God called you to do?

Yeah, that's the most difficult thing. And I never was on the level that Nathan's on. And he's. Right now, he's having. Nathan is changing the compass of our whole family. Sometimes I feel like he takes the responsibility that he has. I have a daughter. We have seven grandkids. I have a severely autistic grandson that's going to always need help and always going to need all this stuff. And I think. I think Nathan is taking all that on. And I'm not going to tell you, it was such a. It was a relief to know he's got my daughter. I go, phew, good, she's yours now. God taken all that worry out. But when I was young, I couldn't hardly turn jobs down because it was, you know, it was a car payment. It was my house.

And you needed the money.

Yeah, we had to go out there and do that. So my kids just learned there were certain sacrifices. The worst part of life for me was always the November and December getting towards the Christmas. But their Christmas depended on my show. So if I had a lot of really good shows, they were going to have a great Christmas. I think they. The older they got, they understood that they got dad doing this, and he's doing this again a little bit for us. But I took the time with Nate and Derek. I wish I'd have done more with my daughter by that time. We needed really the work when they were in school and all that stuff. But I coached baseball for Nathan, so I made sure I missed games sometimes, you know, there were some bigger shows and things I couldn't do, but. But for the most part, I was there for him, for both of them. And I said, this is it. In the summer I'm not going to work as much. I want to coach baseball. So six, eight weeks, this is what I'm doing.

Yeah. So you thought about seasonally, you're like.

All right, when I'm home, I'm home, I'm all there.

But when I'm on the road, yeah.

I'm going to work hard to provide for my family.

I'm sure we have a lot of.

Listeners, right, who are in the shoes that you were in 20 years ago, who do have to be on the road a lot away from their families in order to provide, and they feel.

Maybe some guilt about that.

They feel a tension between the call, the biblical call to be excellent parents, but also the biblical call to be excellent at their craft. What encouragement would you give them, Stephen.

For me to do it all again? I think I would be so much more understanding of what my wife does and did. And I think that you have to minister to her so she can minister to your children. And that does take time. I mean, we can't. We have to put in me and my wife. I mean, this is not good. But me and my wife have never gone on a trip, just me and her, without a show in the background. I've done shows in Paris, France. I've done shows in England and Australia, and we've gone some awesome places, and we always go early and stuff. But still, we were just talking the other day. When have we ever done something, just me and you? And I think you have to do that, and that's with your whole family. You have to just go, all right, I'm going to do something and spend that time. Pretty famous comedian, a guy, Dusty Slay, I just heard him talk the other day, and he goes on the road for three weeks and he stays home for one. And I thought, wow, that I wish Nate would almost adopt that. I thought, that's a great idea. Nate's doing kind of what I did. And unfortunately, that's what happens sometimes. I mean, he worked, worked hard, work, and now he's taking the summer, taking, you know, six weeks off. And then he'll. Then gradually he'll be back up into that cycle. I wish I really like Dusty Slay, Model 3. And that's why, you know, you're going to spend time. But I would suggest when you are there, you get. I mean, the thing is, you want to do fun stuff with your kids. You think that, but you just got to do what's fun for them. You got to get involved in their life.

Yeah, it's good.

And what's important to them. Well, that's what I need to know.

You're clearly so proud of all your children.

I think I'm going to remember for.

A really long time watching you on stage at the end of your set getting genuinely choked up talking about Nate.

And as I was watching you, I thought to myself, wow, if you and.

I, as earthly fathers, are capable of being this overwhelmed with love for our kids as we watch them do the thing God made them to do, in your case, to watch Nate on stage.

How much love must our heavenly Father.

Feel as he watches you, Stephen, do.

The thing he made you do on that same stage?

And so you're at the latter part of your career.

As you look back over your 40.

Years doing this work, what do you hope has brought your heavenly Father that deep kind of joy and delight?

The salvation of my. Make me cry. The salvation of my children. And just to know that we shared that with them and that they know what a godly life. And I pray and that he's just happy that forget that I'm doing what he created me to do, which is awesome, but I really feel like we are. But I also know that I'm more creative to make sure that all my children and family's name is written in the book of life. And then I have to tell them and I have to share that with it. I also had a very rough childhood with my mother, and me and her just never got along, and she never liked me, and it was always best for me to avoid her, and I did that for reasons. But she got really sick at the end, and she was in a nursing home, and I went 12 years without talking to her because she didn't want to, and she kicked me out. And I mean, there was a lot of stuff with my mom, and it's a whole different podcast, but I was able. My sister called. My mama really was abusive to me, and then I ran away, and then my mom was abusive to my sister after me. And that was a terrible time in my life because I didn't check on my sister. I never thought, well, mom might do this to somebody else. I just thought it was me and Yeti when she went after my sister. But today, me and my one sister, we're the only believers. And so, you know, again, God's plan is in all of this stuff.

So.

But anyway, I was able to go the day before she died. She was in a covet ward and she was dying with COVID and I was able to go stand before her. And I always say this. And this is when I first tried it. When I first came to Christian. I went right to her. I went right to my whole family. And I said, look, you're all going to hell. You know, you know, the. That doesn't work. Then second time I tried to share, I go, God loves you, but you're going to hell. And I thought, if I feel God loved you in there, that would be good. But no.

So.

But my mom never seen Nate. She's never seen my children, grandchildren. She's seen. Never seen my kids. She'd seen them, maybe, and never really knew nothing about my life and my family, and neither did she ever care. But when she got sick, she was in the hospital. I couldn't get in. But I go in, and God allows me to get in because of my speech impediment. The guy, the kid at the thing to let people check the list, couldn't find my name. And he said, how do you spell Bargetzi? And I go, how it sounds? Just like it sounds. And I might have spit a little bit, but he goes. He goes, just go. So he sent me in. So I'm walking up these steps and I'm going, you know what? Isn't God good? I knew she was close to death. And I said, she's going to get to tell me she's sorry, that she's sorry she never knew my kids, that she's sorry that she's not a part of our life. And all of this stuff. And then God, it's going to be so great. And as soon as I walked in the room and there's the Holy Spirit and God, I didn't need her to tell me she's sorry. I needed to tell her I'm sorry. I wasn't a great kid when I was young. Yeah, we had trouble, but I made her life so bad and so hard. I always had grace for my mom, but I never had mercy. And my mom needed mercy. That is the forgiveness when you don't even ask for it, when you don't deserve it. I mean, grace is a free gift and what you don't deserve, but mercy is not getting what you do deserve. That's what my mother needed at that moment. And I was able to give her mercy and just apologize and say, I wish I would have made you know my kids. I wish you to know my children. And I just talked to her about all that and. And she's crying. She can't talk, but she's just crying and crying. And I just said, you're going to go get to meet my Jesus, and I love him more than anything. And you get to go first. All you have to do is ask and would you like to do that? And she nodded her head and I prayed for my mom and she died the next morning. But I didn't know my mom. She had so much trouble. And I found all this out later. And after her death, all the stuff that she went through and you know, we don't realize that and. But I have all eternity to get to know her now. And I think that's meant. Scott, smile. I think that's what it is.

No doubt. And God used your humility, right? And kind of these years of internalizing the gospel, clearly, Stephen, to lead you to that point of I would be the same way, walking up those steps, what can I get from my mom before she goes, what can I get? What can I get? And then by the Holy Spirit's power transition that to know what can I give her? And I can give her mercy. That's what God used to show her. A three dimensional flesh and bone model of the gospel that made that winsome to her in those final hours. And yeah, you will be able to spend time with her for eternity. Which leads to one of four final rapid fire questions I'd love to ask.

I know this podcast, this podcast has went way off rails of what you thought.

Oh, no, it didn't. This is, this is incredible. Oh my gosh, Stephen.

So Isaiah 65 says that we will.

Long enjoy the work of our hands with our descendants on the new earth. Isaiah 65, 1723. Do you think about that?

What job would you love for God.

To give you on the new earth?

You want to be doing magic, you want to be doing tricks and clean comedy with your son forever?

You know, maybe I was, in a way. I want a real job that he says, get up at 8 and go there. No, I love that.

Hey, Stephen, what books do you give.

Away the most frequently?

Like if we looked at your Amazon.

Order history, what are you purchasing over?

Yeah, I saw that question. I went, kelly, I was such an avid reader, and again, I had a really difficult time reading. And then I got to where I was reading. I like Brother Lawrence, the book of Brother Lawrence. And just that the idea that this guy did what he did and it makes me feel like I should be doing more. I should be doing more, especially if somebody's a new believer. That's what it is today. I mean, just to be honest, I haven't got anything that I'm reading that A lot. I listened to a lot of the podcasts. I like the. You know, unfortunately, that's taken over the reading. I tried to read two to three chapters in the Old Testament of the day and one New Testament and do that. So that's where I'm spending most of my time that I have.

That's really great. The Practice of the Presence of God is an exceptional book.

That's a great recommendation.

Hey, Stephen, who would you want to.

Hear on a podcast like this talking.

About how the gospel influences the work they do in the world?

I like to hear people that, you know, when you hear my testimony, you go, he needed God. But when you hear their testimony, you just go, you walked with him your whole life, and you never really. They're going to walk first.

It's good.

I like that answer.

Hey, Stephen, you're talking to this global.

Audience of mere Christians who do a lot of different things vocationally.

Some of them, I know are magicians and entrepreneurs and baristas and accountants.

What's one thing you want to leave.

Them with before we hang up?

Love one another. And, you know, like what John and I can't even think of what the apostle John doing. They wait, you want to hear from him. He, you know, love your neighbor and love. You know, love. I mean, that's it. The world needs Jesus and they need him so bad, but they have to see Jesus, and sometimes that's us, that we have to represent him for other people. I know. I mean, sometimes when I do shows and stuff, people come up and the believers know, but the other people, they don't know. They go, I don't know what it was about you. But you'll find, even with Nate, when Nathan performed, he don't want to be known as a clean comic. That's to say, oh, he's a Christian clean comic. He just wants to. And obedience. He's a very good comic.

He's the best.

Almost the second people go, but, yeah, I don't think he. There's something different, and they don't even know what it is and stuff. And so we live our life that people look at us and they want to know what it is.

It's good.

That's really good. Stephen, I would commend you for doing that, for the exceptional work you've done.

Throughout your career for the glory of God and the good fathers and using your talents to evoke awe and wonder.

In your audiences and just giving us.

A picture, I think, of how our.

Heavenly Father delights in the good work of his children.

Friends.

You can learn more about stephen@magicofsteven.com Stephen, this has been a joy. Thanks for hanging out with us Jordan, you awesome man.

Stephen was such a joy to hang out with.

He wouldn't let me go when we hung up.

We just spent a lot of time together afterwards just talking about life.

What a generous man and what a.

Beautiful heart he has for his son, for his kids, for his work. That was a lot of fun.

Hey, if you're enjoying the Mirror Christians podcast, do me a huge favor, take 10 seconds right now and go leave a one to five star rating of the show on Apple Spotify wherever you listen. You would be shocked at how important those ratings are to helping us get guests like Stephen on the show. So take a second, go do that right now and I'll see you next week. Hey friends, this is your last chance to claim all the amazing pre order bonuses for five mere Christians before they go away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9. I've never offered this many pre order.

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