Tamika Catchings (Hall of Fame Basketball Player)

The episode you're about to listen to was released back when the Mere Christians podcast was called the Call to Mastery. Now, if you love Mere Christians, you're still going to love these older episodes because the majority of each conversation focuses on how the gospel influences the work of our guests. With that disclaimer out of the way, please enjoy the episode. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I'm Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. Every week I'm hosting a conversation with a Christ follower who's pursuing world class mastery of their craft. We're talking about their path to mastery, their daily habits, and how their faith influences their work. Today, I'm thrilled to share this conversation with my friend, Tamika Catchings. Man, if there's ever been somebody on this show who is an unequivocal master of their craft, it is her. She's widely regarded as one of the greatest basketball players of all time, male or female. She's appeared in more WNBA playoff games than any player in history. She's the only player in WNBA history to appear in 10 All Star Games. She's one of only three American basketball players, male or female, to earn four Olympic gold medals. And it goes without saying, she's a member of the Women's Basketball hall of Fame. Oh, yeah, and now today, she retired as a player a few years ago. Today she's the general manager of her former team, the Indiana Fever. So Tameka and I recently sat down. We talked about how we became friends over my book called To Great a few years ago. We talked about her surprising answer to the key to becoming the greatest of all time in her sport. And we talked about how mastery and Christ centered joy has opened up doors for Tameka to share the gospel. You guys are going to love this conversation with my friend, Tameka Katcuts. Tameka, my friend, thank you. Thanks for doing this. Thanks for being here.

Thank you for having me. I'm excited.

So we've known each other for a few years now. We hung out in Indy, where you live. We hung out in Tampa. And to be honest with you, I don't entirely remember how we met for the first time and how you came across my work for the first time. Do you remember?

I do. It was the Multiply Conference.

And that's right. Yeah.

I was telling dj, who does help with both of our books, yeah, I was talking to him. I'm like, oh yeah, I'm going to the multiply conference. And so and so is going to be there. So. And I'm like, Jordan Rayner. And he was like, oh, my God, Jordan. One of my clients. I'm like, oh, okay, you got to go up. You got to talk to him. I represent both of you guys.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It'll be a great connection. And it was like a match in heaven.

That's funny. I forgot that DJ is our literary agent for both of us. He does our books. And by the way, I have a picture from that conference of you standing next to me that my friends cannot get enough of. I look so tired. Tiny compared to Tamika Kestrean's. They love it. They love it. They rag me about it all the time. So your story is way too long and story to fit into a podcast episode. You played at UT under Pat Summit. You went to four Olympic Games and won gold. You dominated the wnba. I'm curious, though, you know, as you look back on your career as an athlete, do you have a favorite memory that you think you'll just, like, never ever forget? Like, what really stands out in your mind?

Wow. My favorite memory, honestly, is, so I tore my ACL my senior year in college and got drafted. Like, my goal since seventh grade was to be a professional basketball player. And fast forward, I wanted to be in the NBA because the WNBA wasn't around. So fast forward, my freshman year in college at University of Tennessee, the WNBA starts. And so I literally just remember, like, oh, my gosh, this is my dream. This is what I want. I want to go and I want to play. My father played in the NBA, so I wanted to follow in his footsteps by playing in the W. So senior year, I turn my acl, I get drafted, so I don't play the first year. So, I mean, this is the thing that I'll never forget because you play a lot of games and you get to do a lot of really cool things, and, you know, the Olympics and W and college and, you know, overseas when you get a lot of opportunities. But I would say, like, the memory that I will never forget and I'll probably talk to my kids about the most is the first time stepping on the floor. My first time, 2001, I got drafted, so I didn't play that year. So 2002, like, my true rookie season, the first time I stepped on the court and just the response from the fans and hearing my name get announced, and I don't remember anything about the game. But I think just like, when you have a goal and you work so Hard. And you put so many hours and just everything. To see it come into fruition, that was the thing that I remember the most.

That's awesome. I didn't know your dad played in the NBA.

Mm, played for 11 years. He played for the Milwaukee Bucks, New Jersey Nets, Philadelphia 76ers, and the Los Angeles Clippers.

Wow. That's awesome. So you grew up going to games and seeing these legends on the court.

Yeah. And I mean, it's crazy because, like, when you're in that world, and even as a player, when you're in that world, you kind of live in a bubble. Yeah. When people are like, what's it like? And, yeah, I'm like, I love it. You know, obviously you work so hard to get to that point, but you're in a bubble. I mean, it's kind of like you go from team to team. And for the WNBA players, we play in America during the summertime, and then pretty much fall and spring were overseas in different cities, So I played nine years overseas as well.

Wow. So I love that. From the seventh grade, you knew, like, this is it. Like, this is your thing. The WNBA didn't exist. You were like, I'm going to get into the NBA. You were like, dead set up.

Yes, Yes. I am very determined, and I'm sure, you know, I'm determined, and I'm very passionate.

Yeah, I know that about you. Was your dad like, tamika, come on, a woman's never going to play in the NBA. Or was he really encouraging of you?

Oh, man. My mom and dad were awesome. I remember I was sitting in my room, and I always have a notebook. So even right now, I'm sitting here with a notebook right next to me. But I tore a piece of paper out. I wrote down, like, on a piece of paper just what I wanted to be like one day. When I grow up, I want to be in the NBA. And I remember running down the hall to my brother in my sister's room, and I'm like, hey, guys, I know what I want to be when I grow up. And they were just like, oh, man. Like, what? And I showed them my paper, and they just said, oh, my God. Like, have you told Mom? Have you told dad? And so running down the stairs, I'm like, mom and Dad, I know what I want to be when I grow up. And, you know, I show them the piece of paper, and my mom and dad, both of them were like, you know what, honey? If anyone can do it, you can. And just hearing those words, whether they believed it or Not. It didn't matter.

Right, right, right.

Didn't matter. But you're in the seventh grade.

It doesn.

Yeah, it doesn't matter. And I swear, like, every day I was outside playing basketball. Like, during the school year, I would go outside, I would shoot hoops if I could in the driveway or around the corner. We had a basketball hoop I would shoot. I'd come back and I'd get ready for school. I'd come back home from school and do my homework. We would go and do whatever sport we were involved in. I played three sports all the way through high school and obviously stopped when I got to college. But basketball was like my love. Like, that was the thing that I knew I was driven to do.

So this is going to be laughable to you since you and I met in person a couple of times, but my dream up until the eighth grade was to play in the NBA. That's the proper response. Oh, cute little. Yeah, no, I was obsessed. Like, all throughout elementary school, all I did was play basketball. Very similar story. And then I capped out at 5 foot 6 and realized this is totally inconceivable. But I tell that story a lot to illustrate the point that, like, you can't be anything you want to be. Like, there are natural limitations that God has placed on you. If you're five foot six, yeah, you're probably not going to play in the NBA.

I mean, you just have to. Really good. Really good. So, you know, there's quite a few of them Muggy Bogues. You just gotta be really good.

Mugsy was a hero. So you are one of, if not the greatest women's basketball player of all time. Like, I keep reading these articles like, Tamika is the best ever. If any guest on this podcast is an unequivocal master of their craft, it's you. So I'm just curious. During your career as an athlete, what did you learn? Were the keys to mastering your vocation as a player? Like, what's the delta between hall of Famer and somebody who's not in the hall of Fame?

I think it's the attention to details and being very devoted, very dedicated, very attentive. You know how many times I know, even for me now, like, in my role with the Fever, I will walk in a gym and I will watch players work out. I watch them train. And I was very particular on the way that I train. It took me a minute. I can't say from day one, like, this is what popped out, but from the way that the simplest thing to a Jab step. The simplest thing to. As you're going through a lot things that happen, what happens when you're working out is, you know, the coach will say, hey, I need you to do a jab depth to the middle with your left leg. And then, you know, there'll be a cone a couple feet ahead. So you do a jab dep. You'll take two dribbles with your right hand, do a crossover to your left, one dribble into a pull up. And even as you're thinking through it, like, I would walk through it, and then when I would actually get into it, everything had to be done. Game, like, so. In between my reps, I might walk around, I might, you know, take a break. I might shoot free throws. But as I was going through the drill, I was very deliberate and very attentive to the small details. And I think that's really the difference between being a good player and being a great player. If there was small attention, that's more details.

I know that's great. I'm surprised by that answer a little bit. Obviously, I know, like, discipline over time, like, counts and grit, whatever, but attention to detail? No, I think there's a lot of wisdom in that. When I was writing Master of One, I talked to Tony Dungey, I talked to a few other people from the world of athletics and sports, and this theme kept coming up as, like, yeah, excellence is mundane. Like, excellence is just doing the drill the right way over and over and over again. Right. It's a lot of repetitions. I think you framing it as attention to detail is a good way to say it. Right. It's like doing everything, even the little things, like a drill, perfectly, with excellence every single time.

Yeah. And I have to be careful because, like, my little nephews will come and my brothers will come over here, and you, you know, they'll be playing outside, and they're young, but they all have goals to be in the NBA. And so, like, I have to be careful, though, because I didn't start getting that mindset, really, till probably later in my college. And even going into, you know, being a professional, I still grew every single year. My dad always said every year that you come into a season, you have to bring something different. It's not that you don't work on the good things and the great things that you did the year before. It's just you have to add an element to your game. And so every year, like, in the off season when I would go overseas, I would have a specific thing that I wanted to work on, to add to my game coming in. But I got to be careful because I can't push them to do that right now. Like, right now, it's more important for them. They're in high school. The oldest one that's here, he's going to be a junior in high school. My little nephew is going to be a freshman. You know, the one that lives here, be a freshman. But I don't want to push them to the point of, you got to do everything perfect. You got to do this right now. I want them to have fun.

Yeah, you want them to love the game.

Love the game, have fun. You want it when you want it. Like, I wanted it. I wanted to be the best. The best that I could be, not compared to anybody else. I wanted to be the best that I could be. So every day it was really about, what are the small things that I need to do to be the best.

I love that I talk about this in Master of one. This idea of, like, frequent discomfort, right? So, like, masters never plateau. They always put more weight on the bar and do it really specifically, right? So they set specific goals. It's like, okay, I want to add this element to my game. Or for me as a writer, it's like, oh, man, I really want to get better at making transitions with words from chapter to chapter. Right. And, like, purposefully practicing that. So for you, yeah, you would just go into a season and be like, oh, yeah, I specifically want to do this. What's an example of that?

So shooting, I would say, what year was that? So I got drafted 2001, probably around 2006, seven. Somewhere around there, when the NBA All Star Game was in Houston. And I remember up until that point, like, I had shot the ball okay. Like, I wasn't terrible, but I wanted to be better and got down to Houston. I think I flew back from. I was playing at that point. I was playing overseas somewhere. So I got back to Houston to the all Star game, and I was trying to find somewhere to work out. And so they were like, okay, well, you can go and work out in the Houston Rocket gym. Just you have to go early every single day. And so I was talking at the point that point in time, the Houston comics were still here. And so I was talking to one of the assistant coaches, Kevin Cook, and I was like, look, I want to work out. Can you get the ball? Can you have everything done? You know, all I want to do is just come. And he was like, hey, I have this guy, the shooting coach. I don't know if you'd be interested in working with him, but he can come. And at least if you want to work out with him, you can. And literally brought in Marvin Harvey, AKA the shot doctor. I call him Doc. And so, like, I started working with him that during the three or four days that I was there for the All Star Game. And then I went back overseas, went through the season, and after the season, I went and I trained with him for about two weeks straight, and then I left for a week, and then I went back down. But it's just like I was. So at that point, when you know how you learn something. And our training time was from 8am to like 12. We had an hour for lunch, and then you would come back and go from 1 to 5. But, you know, when you're learning something and you're so hungry to learn, the time goes by so fast that you don't even realize how long you've been in the gym. But when you come out, it's like you're exhausted when you. But you want more. And I started working with him, but that was my thing. Like, I wanted to become a better shooter. And my shooting percentage continued to go up, and he would come overseas and spend time with me there and watch my games, and we would train. But, like, after I met him that one year, thank God for Kevin, because if it wasn't for Kevin, I wouldn't have met Marvin, I wouldn't have met Doc, and, you know, just improve my game.

Yeah. And you've read masterpoint, so, you know, I talk about apprenticeships. I talk about purposeful practice. When you identified, like, a weakness in your game, like shooting, did you set, like, really concrete goals? Were you like, oh, I got to get my shooting percentage from x percent to Y percent? Did you think about it that way?

I didn't. He did. I'm sure mine was more just eliminating, you know. And you talked about this in your book, like, how you start shaving off. So, you know, when you watch different shooters shoot, not everybody shoots the exact same way. But, you know, like, Doc studied Michael, he studied mj, the Jordan shoes, the Jordan pants, the Jordan hat. Like, he studied Michael Jordan. And when you think about the great. You look at the last dance and how many people tuned in. And just watching Michael go through, like, it was awesome. So that was like, my thing. How do you eliminate the extra movement? How do you eliminate some of the things? My arm shooting out, my elbow pointing out. How do you get that underneath? Like, I mean, probably the first two or three Days. Think about the hours I just gave you. The first two or three days we actually practiced without a basketball.

Wow. Interesting. You were just doing laps and stuff.

Just working on form. You know, a lot of, like, mirror stuff. Watching, being able to see your form, being able to see your knee bend, the release at the end, and then walking around the court, like, just doing the same thing. Like, two, three, step, stop, shoot. Two, three, step, stop, shoot. And then it's like.

Yeah, it's just building the muscle memory.

Yep, Building muscle memory and then getting confident. You know, they say you have to do something the same way, so, like, the repetition. I think it's 24 times. I don't know. It's like a lower number. But then to be excellent at something, you have to put 10,000 hours.

Yeah.

At least 10,000 hours into it. I'm like, okay, definitely have done that.

So you've definitely done that as a player. But now. So you're such a great example of somebody who is going to master different things in different seasons of her career. Right. Versus a player. Now, you alluded to this a minute ago. You're mastering the art of managing a basketball organization. You're recently named GM of the Indiana Fever at such an ideal time. Right. Pre Covid. That was awesome. Great introduction to managing a team. I'm curious, as you've made this transition from player to gm, what are the things where you're like, okay, I really have to work hard at this skill as I make this transition to managing a team.

I would say communication.

Yeah.

2004 was probably the first time as a player. The first time I was around Dawn Staley with the Olympic team. That was my first experience with the senior team from an Olympic standpoint. And watching the way that she was able to direct and communicate all the players on our team, I was just like, man, this is amazing. So coming out of that I came back to Indiana. That was something that I worked on. And not just being a leader that said, hey, just follow me. You know, I wasn't really good at communicating. It was more like, I'm gonna get in the gym. I'm gonna go hard. I'm gonna do all the things that I need to do. If you want to work out with me, come.

Yeah.

But if not, like, I'm not gonna tell you what to do. But I learned after that. And so I think in making this transition, it's really been about communicating effectively. Like, you got to communicate with the players, you got to communicate with the agent, you got to communicate with the league. Got to communicate. You know, I have a boss, and I have bosses. So being able to communicate and knowing their style and the way that they like to be communicated to, because I can't speak to my boss, Dr. Barber, and the way that I speak to her is different than the way that I speak to Rick Fusion, who is the president of Pacer Sports Entertainment, and then the owner, you know, the Simons. And there's a lot of different ways of being able to communicate and. And so really learning how to do that, how to be transparent. Because from a player standpoint, that was something that I wanted. And, you know, like, I wanted somebody that was transparent. I want you to be honest with me. If I'm not doing something, tell me I'm not doing something. Don't beat around the bush. Just be direct. And so really trying to learn. I think the benefit I do have is that I was a player. And so I know what it feels like to be on that side. And now that I'm on this side, being able to understand what I felt and what I wanted. But also I'm in the front office. So there's some things that I can say. There's some things that I can't say, but I want to be as transparent as I can with the player, with the information that I have.

How have you done that in the wake of COVID I mean, you know, leaders right now, I think, are trying to figure out how do we project hope but also be transparent about the reality of the economic climate and what that can mean for our organizations. Whether you're a business or a basketball organization, how have you thought about that need for transparency during this time with your players and the whole organization?

Well, one thing we set up right away, I would say so right before COVID hit, the one thing we were all preparing for from the WNBA standpoint is the WNBA draft. And so initially, when it hit, like, we put all eggs in our basket, like one basket, everything. Like, everybody working around the clock, focusing in on the draft.

Yeah.

Draft happens in April. And then it's like, okay, now what? Like, when are we going to play? Right. When are we going to play? And so we're just now getting ready to start our season. I would say during that time frame, especially being in Covid, it was really about communication. And we set up weekly calls with our players. We broke them down into different groups so that we could communicate effectively based on our older players maybe don't need as much, and they want a different type of information and they want more job security. And there's other things that they're focused on where the younger players are, like, okay, I'm ready to play. This is my dream. This is what I've been looking forward to, but really trying to focus on from my standpoint is all of our players. And this is something that I stress. All of our players need to be multi dimensional. I don't want you to just be basketball players. Basketball is what you do. It's not who you are. And God given us all individual talents. Well, that was something that he gave, but there's something else that you have in you as well. And so really trying to use this time to. Yes, let's talk about where we are. Let's talk about COVID And then, you know, George Floyd happened. And so even in the wake of COVID already being frustrated of being pent up in a house, then now we get to social injustice and oppression. And how do we communicate that? How do we talk about that? How do we as a team, as an organization, wrap our arms around. Majority of our players from the Fever, Indiana Fever side and the Pacer side are African American. And so we're all impacted to some capacity. So I think for me, it's been a lot of juggling, but I'm learning. I feel like God has placed me in this time for such a time as this. And while sometimes I know I feel like God, I'm not the one, he keep pushing me.

Yeah. So as an African American woman leader of this organization, how have you responded to the George Floyd situation? What lane do you feel like is appropriate for you to occupy in communicating about this inside and outside of the organ?

Yeah, I think it's really using my platform to create positive change, you know, so I've been able to use my voice inside our organization and outside the organization. You know, I've participated in a few marches and you know, we did in March and we did a sit in and protest and, you know, really getting our organization and getting people to understand what it's like, you know, but now it's like, when you get to the hope part, what are some things that we can do and be hopeful for? And not even be hopeful, but press forward and be energized. You know, I'm blessed because not only am I the GM and the vice president of basketball operation for the Fever, I also own my own tea shop.

Yeah.

And so I own Tease Me Cafe Indy. And through that we've been able to do. We do community conversations. And so the month of June, we did one every Friday Moving forward, we'll do one every second Friday of the month. And so just talking about racism and education this month we're going to focus on racism and education and talk all about education part two, because we did one portion of it in June. It went so well and people were so excited and everybody was chiming in through our Facebook Live. I was like, you know what? We need to continue the conversation and people are looking at what are we going to do about school moving forward. So I feel like I've had a lot of different avenues and my sister and I, we have our Catch the Stars foundation. So we're about to do a back to school celebration and we are able to do good. And I think that's what it's all about, being able to do good, but also realizing, okay, what's happened in the past, you don't forget about it. But how do we recreate history? COVID 19 is already recreating our history books because this is something that you're going to have to write about and the history books that we previously had are not going to have this information in it. And so how do we deal with this time? What happened to our economy, what's happening to, you know, unemployment and the politics and all the things that are going into this period of time. This will be something that will going to history book. George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, were going to history book. And now there's more of an emphasis on it, which I hope and I feel energized to make sure we keep the conversation going, but also that there's action with the conversation.

Yeah. And it all comes back to one of the core skills you've got to have as a leader, as a gm, and just being able to communicate effectively to different stakeholders and translating messages into different languages for those different stakeholders. And like you said, you talk differently to players than you do to the outside world, that you do to owners, etc. So going back real quick to one element of mastering your role as a gm, a big part of being a leader is coaching.

Right.

So I got to imagine that if you're not already, you're going to be doing a lot of coaching of your managers, of your direct reports within the organization. And you as a player sat under, I mean, some of the greatest coaches of all time, the legendary Pat Summit at ut. What lessons are you applying from your experience being coached to now coaching others within your organization?

Oh, that's a good question. I think, you know, it's interesting because I don't know if there's one thing, yeah, I've been blessed because Pat was, you know, a great leader. And for me, I found myself as a player just watching her without really watching her. Like, I wasn't intentionally watching subconsciously. You're always watching the people that you look up to. And she was like one of the leaders that, I mean, she would walk into a room and the way that she responded to people and, you know, she never met a stranger. Like, that was her personality and then just greatness. I mean, she wanted us to be great in every facet of our life. And so that was something she consistently talked about is how we're going to be great, you know, and then I think moving forward, I had a general manager that when I played and Kelly Koskoff. And so even to this day, I mean, she's across the street now. And I mean that literally because she's the assistant GM for the Pacers now. But, you know, I talked to her quite a bit and just like, hey, in this situation, how do you handle it? So I'm not afraid. And I think that's the sign of a great leader is not being afraid to ask the people that came before you for advice. Now, it doesn't mean I'm going to follow everything that she tells me to do, but getting a different perspective from somebody that's been in the seat. And maybe not that she hasn't been through the COVID situation, but she's been through a lot of other fires that have happened. And so really being able to talk to her honestly and raw, I sometimes, like, man, I just don't know what to do and to have encouragement. And I think that allows me to take that and do that with somebody else and be able to encourage them and be able to talk them off the ledge and be able to, you know, kind of walk through, talk through different situation.

Yeah, I think one element of being a good coach is having a good coach. Right. You know, if you're constantly being poured into by somebody who's a few steps further down the road, you're going to pick up lessons on how to be a good coach to others. Tamika, let's talk about your daily habits and routines. What does your day typically look like from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to bed? And let's go pre Covid. Since this current time is insane, but.

Typically, what does your day look like pre Covid? So I would normally get up teas me opens at 7am Normally now we open up at 9. I would normally get up around 6. And of course, like right away I would say prayers and get ready for the day, leave the house roughly like 6:30, 6, 45, get in the car. Same thing. Just I never really ride around with music playing because that's really my time to tune into God and just talk.

And yeah, I think that's really wise. Really wise.

So I'll get to tease me 7 o' clock when I spend a couple of hours there. You know, if I could get to the office by 9, 30, 10, depending on if we're in season or off season. So we'll talk about off season. Yeah, get to the office around 9, 30, 10. And then just a lot of meetings, a lot of talking, a lot of meeting for players are there, working out. And I'll go down to the gym and make sure that I get a chance to talk to them, get a chance to just hang out for a little bit and then I'm in meeting by the time the day is over. Like if I'm able to leave earlier, I might go back and hang out at tease me for a little bit. At the end of the day, I may go back and just help them clean up the cafe and then I come home. And when I come home, my husband works from home, so come home. I try to like make dinner or what I really got into during COVID time, not necessarily before COVID So I am thankful for this. I really got into bike riding, so now I ride. I'll put a podcast on or, you know, listen to some inspirational music. I'll ride for about an hour, hour and a half and then come home. And if I don't cook dinner before, I'll cook dinner when I get back and after I take a shower and then like my husband and I will eat. We might play games, it might watch a show on tv and then it's time for bed.

That's it. I love it. I think there's a lot of habits that people are going to keep post Covid that they develop during this time. Maybe for you it's biking. I also love that you clearly don't have to go into the tea shop to clean up the cafe. But like that's like fun for you in a way of serving your team. I really like that. So go back to something you said a few minutes ago. It sounds like Pat Summitt did this for you. It sounds like you do this for your team now, but just making sure that they understand that they have value and worth outside of the contributions they make in basketball. Can you talk a little Bit more about that. Is there something personal in your story and a journey you had to make on this topic?

Well, Pat always said we're going to be great on the court, we're going to be great in the classroom, and we're going to be great in the community. But overall, like, her main goal for each of us was to be great people, to be great citizen. And so, like, I always. I mean, even when I talk like, this is what I talk about. So it's been ingrained in my mind. And when I got to be a professional athlete, my initial goal was to be a general manager. And probably so from 2001 to probably around 2014, that was my goal. And then all of a sudden, it switched because I was like, gosh, I'm looking around at all of these wnba, NBA, just professional athletes in general. When they're finished playing whatever sport, they have no idea what they want to do.

Yeah.

And I always said my whole career, I was like, I'll never coach and I'll never commentate because I always, in my mind, I have this block of. Most players transition to that because they don't know what else to do. They don't really want a coach. It's just. They only know basketball. They don't really want to commentate, but they only know basketball. And so, like, I didn't want to get stuck in that rut. And I figured out. So about 2014, my goal really switched where I really wanted to help players figure out what they wanted to do post basketball while we were still playing basketball. And so when I retired in 2016, that was actually my first role. My first role was director of player programs and franchise development. I started with the Fever, then I went to the Pacers. Then I went back to the Fever. Then I went to the Mad Ants, which is our G League team. And then I came back to the Fever in a new role. So for two years, I really wanted to lock in, to help our players figure out, okay, great, you're a basketball player now. Right now is when you hit. Right now, people want you to come and speak. They want you to show up. They want you to start networking, start trying to figure out what you want to do, you know, and put you in position where you can. But even in those two years, Jordan, what I learned is that you can take somebody to the water, but they have to drink it. They gotta use their hand, pick up the cup, fill it up, and actually put it to their lip. You can't do it for them. And so, like, I found Myself getting frustrated because it's like, God, you guys are gonna retire or something's gonna happen and you're not gonna have anything to fall back on. But when I got this role, I'm like, you know what? Now I have the opportunity to do the same thing, but now it's like I'm in a different role. So finding people that can come in and talk to our players and finding people that can through COVID 19, that was a focus. We did podcasts. The players had to listen to podcasts and then we would talk about them in our team meeting. And what did you learn? Why did you pick this podcast? Oh, you're interested in real estate. Great. Like, have you listened to this person? Have you? I'm interested in real estate too. So, you know, like being able to tap into our players and figure out what are some other things that you enjoy and how do we connect you with the right people? You don't want to connect with me because you see me all the time, but how do we connect you with people within the city that even when you're away, you can still communicate with them and they can help you. Kind of like the apprenticeship and the mentorship, they can help you through those.

Yeah, I love that. It's just like coaching people as like whole people, not just players. And it makes a good point, I think. Master of one. I talked a little bit about this. But like, when we are world class at whatever it is we do, right. Whether it's a player or GM or whatever, it makes us winsome to the world, it makes us interesting to other people. They want to be around us. And it opens up very personal conversations about other career interests and sometimes about faith. Right. Issues of faith. I'm curious, do you think you've had opportunities to talk about your faith with teachers, teammates and coaches because of the fact that you were such a high.

Performing player and because consistency, you know, being consistent and I mean, I always say, like, you know, the book audience of one. Yeah. And everything that I do, I want to do to please him. And so I don't have to act one way over here and a different way over here. Like, I'm always the same person, no matter who I'm around, whether that's the first time I'm around you or the hundredth time, I'm always the same. And so I think the consistency piece really helped. But also, like, my faith is embedded in my life. I don't have to go around screaming, I'm a Christian, follow me. Like, I don't have to do that. You know, I think probably the biggest, and I don't want to say reward, because I don't mean it like that, but the biggest, I'll just say, like one of my teammate while we were playing together, you know, she was always wanted to be a center of attention. And, like, some of the stuff she talked about and the language she used to. She didn't really use it around me per se, but it was inappropriate. And I was always steady. Like, I went in and I would correct things when I saw them. And I was a leader in a sense of not wanting to accept certain things. But a few years after she retired, she called me up one day, like, out of the blue, and she was like, hey, are you busy this Sunday? Or whatever Sunday it was? And I was like, ah, you know, I don't know if I'll be in town. And she was like, well, I'm getting baptized. I'm giving my life to Christ. And I'm like, what? You know, so it was cool because we talked about it. I would joke, and I'm like, no, this isn't the same person that you like. I know, I know, I know. You know, I've changed. You know, watching you was a big part of it. Like, the person that you are and the way that you carried yourself and how consistent you always were, you always had a joy about you, and I want that, and it's awesome.

Joy is such a rare commodity in this world, and when people see the real thing, people just have to have that, right?

Yeah.

So I've been really digging in the life of C.S. lewis lately. And he used this word a lot. Like, from a young age, he would have these epiphanies of, like, joy. He would get a taste of joy. It was, like, always on this lifelong quest to find it. And ultimately, obviously, he found it in Christ alone. So, Tamika, in Master 1, I shared a bunch of stories from a few people from the world of sports whom you know. Coach Dungey, David Bodia on the US Olympic Team, Cynthia Marshall of the Dallas Mad Mavericks. I kind of made the point that there's no evidence of scripture that God demands that we win or achieve any sort of excellence or master of our crafts. But there's loads of evidence that he's glorified in our pursuit of victory. Right. So it's not about the obtainment, it's not about actually winning, but it's about the striving to win and doing everything we can to the best of our ability for his glory. Is that kind of how you've thought about this topic as a Christian in this highly competitive sport.

Yes. And I think along with that, though, Jordan is, while you glorify him, that you don't put your sport or your one thing above him. Because I can even go through my life. In my freshman year of college, basketball was my everything. You know, we went undefeated, we won the national championship. And I just remember sitting back like, man, if this is how college is gonna be, like, whoa, this is gonna be amazing. And then sophomore year came and we lost a couple games and it was just. World was coming apart like the world was on fire. And it's just a basketball game. But I found a church and we went to a revival and all four of us came in at the Fab Four for our freshman class. At that point we were sophomores, but we dedicated our lives to Christ. And at that moment it was like, I will never let basketball be my God.

I have a very similar story. I wrote about this in Called to Create, but I had a business that ended up having a happy ending. But there was a period of time where it was like really, really bad, bleak. And it was my first professional disappointment and I was a wreck. Is the only time in my life where I could genuinely say I was depressed and yet I'm so grateful for that time. That was probably, I don't know, six, seven years ago because the Lord just revealed this like really ugly idol in my heart. And I was looking to my work and my professional accomplishments for something that ultimately only he could provide. Sounds like a very, very similar story. So I bet looking back on it, you're probably grateful for that pain and those losses, right?

Oh, yeah. I mean that and I was introduced to athletes in action. So like being able to be around like minded athletes in college, it opened my eyes. I always say this, even in basketball. Sometimes you need to lose in order to win long term. Because if you don't know going back to the good habits, right? Having good habits, if you don't know the things that you need to work on, if you don't know the mistakes that you're making because you're winning games, it gets masked. But when you lose games and you go back and you watch the film, you're looking for all the small, minor things that we can do to correct to win.

I love that you got to lose in order to win long term.

That's really good.

What do you think would be different about your work as a gm Specifically if you weren't a follower of Christ? And I Know, you're new to the role, right? You've only been at it nine months or so. But what do you think could be different about the organization? What do you hope is different because you are a follower of Christ?

Because I'm a follower. I'm very optimistic. You know, I don't believe in chance happening. I believe that God, like, even Covid God is sifting. You know, like, you're just shifting. There's so many negative things and so many impurities that have happened in our world. And so I just feel like there's just a sifting going on. And, you know, I think in my role in particular is the optimism, the hope, the joy, the happiness, you know, just the positivity that we have. And so even as we go through different situations and we've been through a lot in our organization, it's almost like when you go in a locker room, oh, my gosh, I don't feel like practicing. Then what happens? And the person next to you is like, oh, my gosh, I don't feel like practicing either. And then pretty soon the whole team was like, I don't feel like I stopped that. You know, I'm like, nope, I don't want to practice. I want to be great. I want to be the best. I want our organization to be the best. I want to be the best general manager. What do I need to do to be the best? I have to communicate. I gotta be here. I gotta do this, I gotta do that. We gotta look at our players holistically and not just as basketball players. Come in here, just do your job and get out. Like, I think that we've added a different element. And I think the unfortunate part is, even through this, we've had to cut players. And even through doing that, the way that we've done it, I think, has been really professional and being able to communicate with those players effectively, but also letting them know, hey, you never know what can happen in the future. You might end up back here. But there are certain things that as a player, you got to work on. And this situation this year, we didn't really get a chance to see players before we had to cut them. But even through building the relationship and through all of the other stuff that we were doing with our players, even when they got cut, it's like, look, you never know when you'll be back. You never know when the opportunity will present itself. And I'm going to continue to check in on you. I'm going to continue to look out for you as a person. Not necessarily just as a basketball player, but I want to see you succeed. And how can I help you do that?

Yeah, and I think a big part of it is just like being transparent. So the business that I'm executive chairman of, Threshold360, we're in the travel and tourism space and we had to make a few layoffs and just being transparent with the team. And they got it. They were just like, yeah, we're in the travel space. There's no travel industry. We totally get it. You're in the entertainment industry. Sports, like, people get it. If you're just honest and direct with them them. And if you can shed light of hope, of potential, the future, that's great. So, Tamika, three questions. We love to end every episode with number one, which books do you tend to recommend or give away most frequently to others?

Oh, that's a good one. I will say. There's a book that I have and I'm gonna actually get up and get it. But there's a book that I have, I don't know where I found it, but it's called Image of Excellence and it's a treasury of wisdom and inspiration for today. Businesswoman. That's what it says. But I don't think it's just for women. You probably can't find them because I think I search high and low to find every single book to be able to give them out. And I have a couple that are sitting over here, but every day they have different things. But then it's like facing controversy. There's different parts of scriptures. Businesswoman and her attitude, her career, time management, all of that. And then it had one where you could do like all the way, an actual 31 day devotional at the back of it. So I've done that a couple of times.

That's awesome. That's a good recommendation. I like that.

And I like your book too, Jordan. And I like the book that I've written as well. So I'll tell you what, all of.

Them I know you've recommended called the Greater Bunch. Because I've heard from, I don't know, a half dozen people, it's like, oh, yeah, Tamika, give me your book, which I love. Who would you most like to hear talk about how their faith influences their work? Maybe on this podcast.

I love Priscilla Shirer. Yeah, I am all about her.

Yeah. Yeah, she's amazing. I like that answer a lot. All right, last question. One piece of advice you'd like to give our audience who, like you, are just trying to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others.

I think it's just being intentional, you know, be intentional on what it is that you want to do and you want to change. You know, I feel like I'm juggling a lot, but even through people like, how do you juggle? How do you deal with all of that? And I think it's really like I have to sit and be intentional about my time for the Fever. I got to be intentional for Tease Me. I got to be intentional for Catch the Stars and intentional for everything else that I got going on through different phases, but being intentional and then being like 100% there. So, you know, I hope obviously right now it's a hard time with COVID 19 and getting our season kicked up, but one thing that I really tried to focus on through COVID 19 is being present where I am.

Yeah. Now, so much wisdom in there. I've been thinking and writing a lot lately about time management and the word that keeps coming up in my mind is just intentionality. Just like living on purpose, you deciding ahead of time where you're going to spend this precious time that God has given you. Hey Tamika, I just want to commend you for following God's called master on your life and for striving for others excellence in everything you do as an act of worship. Thanks for being salt and light in the world of sports. And on a very personal note, I just want to thank you for all of your encouragement of me and my work over the last few years. I'm so grateful to call you a friend. Hey, if you guys want to learn more about Tamika, you can find all of her incredible initiatives@tamika catchings.com Tameka thanks for hanging out with me this morning.

Thanks for having me, Jordan.

Such a big Tameka fan and wishing her all the best in her new role as GM of the Fever. Hey, if you're enjoying the Call to Mastery, make sure you subscribe so you never miss an episode in the future. And if you're already subscribed, do me a favor, take 30 seconds and go Leave a review of the podcast. Thank you guys so much for tuning into the Call to Mastery. I love making this show. I love making this, making this show for you guys. I was just telling my wife this morning, I can't believe I get to have conversations with these people and share them with the world. So thank you guys so much for tuning in and being an encouragement to keep going and keep producing this thing. I'll see you guys next week.