Teena Dare (Waitress + Host of the Faith, Work & Rest Podcast)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back guarantee on this book. I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me. Right. I know this is a very different biography is what is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because, listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, et cetera, et cetera, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work. But in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right? So that's the first reason this is a risk and I'm gonna de risk this book for you. Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended. End quote. But here's the thing. In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page. And that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9 by filling out that form. You'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on 5 mereChristians. Calm and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5merechristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Mere Christians podcast. Hello, I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious Professionals, but who work as counselors and physics teachers and editors. That's the question we explore every week. And today I'm posing it to my friend, Tina Dare. Tina spent about a decade working in hospitality as a waitress, a hostess, a bartender. Today she's the host of the Faith, Work and Rest podcast. Tina and I recently sat down and had a terrific conversation about how to engage your industry without assimilating to the ungodly ways of your industry. We talked about why the biblical narrative of work is so attractive to non Christians. And towards the end of the show, Tina shared these three terrific ways that that we can all be distinctly Christian in any job. Trust me, you'll want to listen to this one all the way to the end. Please enjoy my conversation with Tina Dare. Tina Dare. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast.

It's so good to be here.

Hey, so you spent about a decade in the hospitality industry. Tell us about the various types of jobs you've had in this world. I actually don't know the answer to this question. Like, what all sorts of jobs did you have in the restaurant industry?

Okay, my first one, I was 15 and my best friend and I worked in this rural setting, this random venue, mostly for like, weddings and events. And as 15 year olds do, we were just having a blast.

Yeah, you're working with your best friend. That's awesome.

Yeah, exactly. Drinking energy drinks 10 hours into our shift in the closet and just having a great time. So that was my very first experience with hospitality, doing events. And then I started serving at a restaurant in high school. Come college, I just show up and start applying for jobs. And the only opening that I could find was as a host. So I hosted for a little while and got that very front of house, first person through the door. Hosts get a lot of junk from guests. So I got that experience under my belt and then moved into serving again and then eventually into bartending.

Oh, that's awesome. What's been your favorite job in this world?

I'd have to say I worked at a gig bartending at a restaurant, but it was kind of at the beginning of like the craft cocktail movement. And this restaurant in particular for the restaurant group we were a part of was the spot where we would, like, try out new drinks and experiment. And there was really the sense of creativity that I discovered about myself in that job that was really fun. I always, I have memories of being in like second grade and saying my stomach hurt to go to the nurse's office during art class, of all things, because I just would get so frustrated that my hand couldn't, like, draw the picture the way I wanted it to. And so I always had this really tense relationship with my own creativity because it just didn't look in that, like, formal I can draw way, and I still can't. So that job was really fun to be able to like, make simple syrups out of time, not like in the theoretical sense, like the herb with the H and the Y. And just have fun, you know, creating and doing it right in front of people that were right there, that were enjoying watching the process. And it just was this very present embodied thing that was a lot of fun.

So I did not expect that answer. I did not expect to tell the story, but I feel like I have to tell it because it's like, just happened. So, like, I gotta be honest, I didn't really know that, like, cocktail bars were a whole thing in their own right. And this, like, whole world of craft cocktails is insane. So I was just in Austin, Texas with a buddy of mine who, like, loves craft cocktails. So we went to this bar. It was called In Plain Sight. It was kind of near the Driscoll Hotel, kind of near six, I think it's on 7th street, maybe, something like that. And I. I watched this guy just light up talking about the craftsmanship that goes into a cocktail. And I just had a blast just like watching him geek out about cocktails. Because there is a lot of creativity and a lot of craftsmanship that goes into it. That was like, really beautiful.

Yeah. And the thing that really transformed my whole understanding of working in the hospitality industry was when I got that job, some of the bartenders would show up at 6am and they would be working on, you know, fresh made ginger agave syrup that we use for Moscow Mules. And just like, just with their hands, like, raw from lemon and lime juice. And I became one of those just raw from lemon and lime juice, from juicing fresh citrus before we even saw our first guest. And so this process of, oh, this work isn't just about the relational interactions, but it's about doing something with the world and with ingredients and doing all this work to prepare this invisible work before a single drink was ever set in front of someone. And so just this whole process of. Yeah, exactly what you said. Like, it's an art and it's hard work and it takes a lot of thoughtfulness and intentionality. And that was a big shift for me.

I love it. Why do you think jobs in the hospitality space matter to God? Right? Beyond the obvious of we're able to leverage those jobs to share the gospel with our coworkers, maybe customers, which like, great, talk about the intrinsic sacredness of this seemingly secular work.

Tina Jordan the more that I think about this, the more that I just get so passionate and then I feel this dissonance of like, wow, how do we not see this in the church? How do we not see this in the world? I would say two things that intersect. One is just in our current world, I think the reality is less people spend time in homes, we have less time just experiencing hospitality and being present and gathering together. We are lonely people. Individualism, there's so many factors, but it feels so difficult just to be with people and to rest and relate, build relationships. And I have heard so many stories of people as I talk about work and hospitality, of just kind of waking up, going into their day and feeling really out of sorts. And then a barista, let's say, and it could be a bartender, I've heard stories across the board, but a barista really looks at them in the eye, really asks them how their morning has been, tells them about, you know, the single origin coffees that they have and engages them as a human being and, and it transforms their day and it goes beyond that, right? These stories stick with them for years of these moments of being seen, genuinely welcomed, received, that their needs and their interests and their likes were valued and that this person knew their craft so well that that she or he could create that combination for them like that so tangible way of being loved and welcomed. I just think our world is so hungry for it and we have such few opportunities of experiencing it. We were talking before the episode, but I'm currently living in Naples, Italy, just temporarily for my husband's work. And being received in people's homes here is very different, right? And friends of ours who are from Syria, who are refugees, being received into their home was very different. Like the hospitality of someone's at your door, you welcome them in, you offer them food and drink and you just are with them. And until however long that is, you know, we don't experience that in our day to day lives.

And I think that gives people a glimpse of belonging, right? A taste of belonging that's only ultimately satisfied in God. Right?

Exactly. So I just think that people doing this work of hospitality, they are the ones like, they are the ones that have the opportunity to welcome strangers and regulars and to create a space for people to be truly seen and known and for them to gather with friends or a first date or family or estranged you know, whatever it could be, like, this space is created, and it's one of the only safe spaces that people have oftentimes. And so just the pertinence of this work, the value of this work today, I think, is just so significant. And then exactly what you said. So the other side of it is just, oh, my goodness. When I think about our God of hospitality and how he created the world. Spring is close as we're recording this, and just a single flower, like the beauty and the creativity of God, the way that he plays with the light coming through my windowsill right now on the cactus that I'm looking at, and. And the shading. And just like, he cares so much about space and beauty and creativity, and he made us to deeply enjoy and connect with that. But he didn't just stop there. Like, he made the things that sustain our bodies, like food, so diverse and creative. Like, when you cut, like, into a purple carrot, you know, like, it's art. It's just incredible. And I learned so much about God when I meditate on these things. And so when someone in the hospitality industry gets to connect people to the good gifts of creation in a deeply relational way, I just think it embodies Christ, who is the Creator, but then came personally and showed up relationally and reached out in this personal invitation. Come and be cared for. Come and sit at my table. Come and share the bread and wine. And I just genuinely can't think of many jobs that. That reflect God more intimately.

I love that you'll appreciate this because you're also a podcast host. There's some quotes from guests that you like, never forget as a host. You don't even have to write them down, Right? You just think about them all the time. And one of mine is from this episode I recorded, I don't know, maybe a year ago with my friend Artie Sicoria, who's on the Food Network. And we're Talking about Isaiah 25, where it says that on the mountain, the Lord Almighty is preparing a feast of rich food for all peoples, right? A banquet of aged wines, the best that meets the finest of wines. I don't know that that's an exact quote, but that's the gist of the passage. And then she just talked about how awestruck she was. That quote, the father's hands are in the kitchen, end quote. That God himself is preparing a feast to celebrate and honor his son, the King of all Kings, and that if he is working with food, there is intrinsic goodness and dignity to the hospitality profession. And those of us taking the raw ingredients of creation and using it to serve others. Right. Does that connect with you, Tina?

Yeah, absolutely. It connects with me so much. And I think when I think about the world and their hunger to know God, and I think it connects with the world deeply. I wrote a blog article once about. It was called the Table. And in the first half, it was a server setting the table, kind of imagining a bachelorette party, which we served a lot at one of my restaurants, and doing the intentional work of preparing both the space and her heart and service and all of these things, and welcoming these guests to the table. And then the second half of the article, the post was Jesus setting the table, like at the wedding feast, and pouring the wine that he's been waiting eagerly to drink since he gave his life to welcome us. And it was just this parallel of comparing this server as like a Christ like figure. And it was amazing, Jordan, to feel and hear the response from the servers that I work with, almost none of whom were Christians or at least actively or vocally following Christ. And they just felt like, oh, my gosh, you're telling me that my work somehow has this beautiful divine reality that this work matters in a godly way, and people were all about it. And it was wild because I was like, I have no idea how people are going to respond to this. It's like, very explicitly about Jesus. And I just think there's something about connecting this type of work to God and who he is. Like you said, the God who is in the kitchen. And it's so meaningful to people.

Well, I think part of what's meaningful about it is this claim that God himself works is unique in the history of world religions. Your friends that you work with have never been told that God himself would roll up his sleeves and serve us. That's a radical claim. Every other religion says that the gods created us to do the menial, undignified labor in the world to serve the gods. Only the God of Christian starts with a God who works to serve us. And it's a theme that's carried all throughout scripture. And so, yeah, I. I think, you know, it's so funny. You. You and I have these podcasts that are largely preaching to the church, and those are the lanes that we feel called to. But this faith and work message has tremendous implications for how we talk about Jesus to the lost.

Yes, right.

Hey, we worship a God who came to work and labor and serve us. And so our reasonable response is to work and serve him until the day that we die. And Even beyond. Right?

Yeah, yeah. I just. I mean, I could. I could never get over the fact that Jesus's last prophetic act, like he knew what was coming and he could have done. He could have done anything. You know, he could have stood and preached the biggest sermon of his life and tried to get as many people to hear as possible, but he tied on an apron, got down on his knees and scrubbed dirty feet, and that was like, what somehow revealed himself and his kingdom most fully in that moment. And, yeah, I just think it's so profound and it's so far, like you said, from every other world religion. And then I think it's so far from our imagination of God, like, so far of how we actually relate unknowingly think about what God is like.

Yeah, I think that's exactly right. All right, so we're talking about the intrinsic goodness of the hospitality industry, kind of this creational goodness pre Genesis 3. But the hospitality industry is also broken, right, Due to the fall. What are some of the clearest examples of that brokenness to you, Tina? We were just talking about cocktails, right? This is a really good example. I think there's creational good in cocktails, using the raw ingredients of creation to create something beautiful for the good of others. But there's also brokenness there.

Right?

So how do you think about that? How do you decipher the creational good from the brokenness? And how do you push back against the brokenness in a redemptive way? Kind of big, big, big question.

I think I experience it on a few levels. One is just thinking about the power dynamics within hospitality. And, you know, in ancient hospitality or even other, it was sort of the vulnerable that were received through hospitality and this expectation that if you had a space and you had stability, you received people traveling, you received in the vulnerable and the needy or just. Or someone who wasn't necessarily needy, but was in that moment in need of hospitality. And when I think about as a whole, it tends to be now that it's oftentimes very vulnerable people working in the jobs of hospitality or welcoming in once again as a whole, people with more privilege. And that creates a lot of dynamics that we can unpack more. But it's not that that is wrong or bad, but it creates this dynamic of these power differentials that I just see all sorts of brokenness in.

So a couple months ago, we had our mutual friend Lauren Gill on the show talking about this great resource that Redeemers put out called the Missional Disciple. And she actually pointed to you As a great example of what it looks like practically to push back against that brokenness. And I don't think I'm not gonna assume that everybody's heard that episode. So can you share what this looked like in your role as a hostess, as a waitress, to push back on some of those broken power dynamics within a restaurant?

Yeah. So something related to what I just shared is in this kind of exchange culture of I give you service, you give me a tip. And there's sort of the sense of the more I invest in people that I think are gonna tip me well, the better return I get. And people who I assume aren't going to tip me well for whatever reason. There is this kind of culture in some restaurants, and not all. I've experienced both type of restaurant cultures where certain people are judged based on just things that you can see on the surface, and they're given poorer service or talked poorly to other servers behind their back. And it's this sense of like, I'm not going to give you my best because I'm going to assume that you're not going to give me much in return. And part of that is this reality that servers and people that work in restaurants are treated poorly and treated not with respect. And so there's this, whether you want to call it a chip on their shoulder, whatever it is that can come through. And it just creates this nasty kind of cycle. And so something that I began to catch a vision for, and I certainly did not do anything close to perfecting this, but I had some really beautiful moments just with Jesus in this is. I started to recognize that God is a God of belonging. And that when you see Jesus work on earth, he doesn't invite everyone in in the same way, but he pursues those who are kind of pushed out and draws them in. And he. He gives more attention and time and energy to going after those people. You know, the woman at the well, like, he went out of his way, you know, to show up and have that conversation with her. And so just thinking about this God who notices those who are treated less than and goes above and beyond to kind of reinstill the dignity that he created in them. And so I started thinking about the guest that would sit at my table that others might speak poorly of or kind of put last on their list of how they serve them and attempt to instead put them at the center of my attention. And maybe that meant, you know, giving less attention to someone who would tip me better or whatever that meant. And I had to just come, like, reconcile these Ideas in my head that as a Christian, if I want to be like Jesus, I need to see these people and dignify them and lavish love on them, even if they are more difficult. And I remember one guest in particular, it was her and her daughter, and it seemed like maybe this was a special thing for her to be out at this restaurant. And they were what we would call needy. They just constantly asking for more and more. And I called upon God and said, I really want to treat these people and just give them everything they need and help them know that they are welcomed here and that I care about what they're asking about and just invited that Holy Spirit to, like, give me that love for them. And, man, it was those moments of flipping the script and really finding God's heart for people and putting them at the center of my service that started to transform my understanding of just God's love and hospitality in general.

You talked about beautiful moments with Jesus in some of these encounters. Explain. Do you have one you could share, like, what you felt, the Lord speaking to you as you serve those on the margins?

Yeah, you know, what I would say is it was subtle but profound because I spent the majority of my time serving in restaurants, struggling. You know, like, you talk on your podcast about how work is a great way that God refines our heart. And just, like, holding up the standard of, like, serve with a joyful heart. Like, I am a servant of Christ. I can serve these people. And then what was really going on in my heart of, like, I want to scream or throw something or, you know, and so, so much of it was, like, resisting my sin, wrestling, but always feeling this, like, kind of messy turmoil, tension. But in these moments, I've seen a couple come to mind. In particular that mother, daughter was one, and another two friends sitting at table 48.

Remember the table number?

I love this table 48. I won't forget it. And just genuinely releasing all of the things that I could get out of these people, laying down this focus on myself and what I'm going to get in return, and truly just inviting God's love to flow through me. And there was something in that that I just feel like God really honored and. And filled me up with a genuine, just deep love for these people. And, you know, I think so often in the work, you know, I miss that opportunity to truly love people because I didn't have to press in so deeply to who Jesus was. It was kind of like, ah, these people are easy, cool. Serve them. They're going to take me great. Easy but in that leaning into the way of Christ, it created this door to really experience this communion with his love that was, yeah, really meaningful.

We talked about renewal in the sense of kind of this lack of hospitality to the most vulnerable, marginalized. I want to apply this lens of renewal to alcohol. We talked about cocktails, right, this creational goodness here, but there's also brokenness. Drunkenness is a sin. This is crystal clear black and white. There's no debate about this. How do you as a Christian faithfully engage at that bar, right, and do that job in a way that celebrates that creational goodness but pushes back against what's broken in our alcohol laden culture?

Yeah, definitely. That's definitely a big tension that I wrestled with and still do. Just, you know, in day to day life and engagement with people, I would say two things. One is just practically, once again not focusing on how can I work up this tab as much as possible. Like a lot of bartenders, it's like round of shots, let's go.

Right, right, right, right.

You know, like ching, ching, ching, ching, ching. And so noticing when people are getting to that point and not being a pusher, not being an alcohol pusher, once again, like to the detriment maybe of, of the tab, but focusing on real people in front of me and noticing them and really not being the one that's pushing them to get beyond the point of what's a healthy consumption of alcohol. The second thing I will say, and this is more of a meta answer, but I think specifically in creating something really beautiful and taking my time, like making drinks, when I create a cocktail, when I'm working on something creatively and when the guest is sitting there watching or they can just experience like the beauty and the goodness and the intention and time and, and it's not as cheap, you know, when you put in that much time and intention. My prayer is that in participating in that type of creating drinks, it resists the temptation of over consumption. Because it's not just this drink that tastes like nothing or that's super crazy sweet that you're just down in an effort to over consume, but instead it's something that you can like sit and marvel at and be more connected to your body and the environment and the world and hopefully to God and not to get too, but like this transcendent, like, oh my gosh, this is a work of art in front of me, you know, I think in general, and I've seen people down multiple craft cocktails and really pay a lot of money. And so this isn't a foolproof situation. But I do think that there's an invitation in doing something meaningful and beautiful and intentional that invites people to resist over consumption and return to what God intended us to receive with gratitude.

Well, if there aren't Christ followers in these spaces, who in the world is going to be pushing back against this brokenness? That's what kills me. So I've been reading through Tim Keller's sermon archive, and literally this morning I read a sermon he gave in the year 2000, this terrific, terrific series he did on Daniel and living by faith in a secular world. Right. And he's expounding upon. He's basically says, hey, listen, Jeremiah 29. Daniel would have heard Jeremiah 29. He or his parents would have heard this prophetic vision given by God through Jeremiah to seek the welfare and prosperity of the city. In other words, to be engaged in culture, not retreating from culture. And Keller says this. He says, quote, this is his kind of summary of. Of this Jeremiah 29 passage. He says God's not saying assimilate, but he's also not going to let his people separate. God wants us to be deeply involved, deeply engaged in the life of the city, but living distinctly as God's people within the city. Right. And that's such a good example, Tina. Right. Like that calls. You may call you to get behind the bar and make a cocktail, to push back against some of the brokenness in there. Right?

Yeah. And I think this is just building upon what you said, but that was a communal calling to the people of Israel. And I think that part of why people struggle so much to enter into some of these spaces is that the temptations are intense and the culture is intense. And I'll say this for myself, I didn't feel the freedom to talk through some of the struggles with most of the people at my church because it felt like they were taboo things. You know, like people didn't seem to under. Didn't understand that culture. And so just having an openness about talking about work in Christian circles and normalizing, you know, it's almost like a business person struggling with greed or not struggling with it, but just like not even thinking about it, not thinking about how their people are getting paid and whether it's just. That's just kind of acceptable. But if a bartender is struggling with alcohol consumption or a culture of flirting within the workplace or all these things that are like, taboo things, I just think there is a great need for the church to be able to acknowledge and really openly talk and have community around the struggles that people face in the workplace and also have other Christians in that space who understand. And then Christians that are outside of that space that can speak clearly and say, hey, this is what I see. And I, you know, you can talk to me about the struggle and let me encourage you in the way to go, but I just, I think there needs to be so much more openness in our communities to be able to spur each other on, to be faithful. And particularly in context that where there's a lot of tension, it's the only.

Way that Christians will be able to engage the world while being insulated and distinct as they do it. Right. I think a lot about these terms of, like, insulation versus isolation. I think a lot of Christians look at the world and look at how increasingly secular cultures becoming in their responses to isolate. It's like, oh, let's hunker down, and we're just waiting for Jesus's return. Escapism has no place for Christ followers.

Right.

Like, I just don't see any evidence of this in the New Testament. But we ought to be in serious, intentional Christian community to insulate ourselves. Right. To renew our minds with God's word, to be challenged about what's wrong, what's right about our vocations, and be able to talk through those unique temptations and challenges so that we can go back into the world with that community with us, at least in our heads. Right. And engage as a faithful presence in those places. That's what you're talking about when you're talking about the need for Christian community. Talking about work, right, Tina?

Yes, exactly. Yeah. Just the space for us to bring work into our worship spaces, whether it's, you know, on a Sunday, but just in our small groups, in our relationships with Christians, to normalize these tensions. Yeah. And to allow them to be this. I mean, if we're really sharing our life together. Most of us spend the majority of our hours doing some sort of work, and oftentimes I found that it isn't at the center of our conversations when that is truly where we're wrestling through what it means to be faithful to Jesus. And so, yeah, I just think there's such a need for that.

Is that part of why you started your podcast, Faith Work and Rest?

I actually was lucky enough to inherit the podcast. A mentor and friend of mine, Jim Mullins, started it a while back, and he formed me so much in the way as I was actively working in restaurants and wrestling through how I can honor God. He was the one who sat down with me as my pastor. And thought through creatively, like all this stuff. Right. That we're talking about. So when he had to step back from the podcast, I had the opportunity to take over as host. And you know, what I love about hosting the podcast is just that it's like the gospel spoken in all these different languages. It's only English, but the language of business and the language of hospitality. And I just think it just brings God to life for people and. Yes. And creates validation, the conversations that aren't happening. It creates a space where people can dialogue through listening and be encouraged and challenged.

Yeah, I love that you've recorded quite a few of these episodes. I think you guys are almost 100 episodes deep on the show. If you could only point to three things that the mere Christians listening could do that would be distinctly Christian in their places of work, and keep in mind very broad in terms of what vocations are in. What would those three distinctly Christlike characteristics be as applied to work?

Okay, these are going to be maybe less obvious because I think I don't want to be redundant. So this is what I've really been pressing into in my own process with this subject is how we steward our power. And that came up, you know, in our conversation of how do we consider the power that we have? And it could be on paper, very little or very great, just becoming aware of it and sitting with God in the reality of what do we have, whether it's an education, a position, people that work under US influence, or whether it's, I interact with 50 guests a day, I have the power to change 50 people's experience of their meal. And so rethinking how we understand power and influence for those of us who do have great influence in the world, like being responsible for that and bringing that before the Lord and really doing work to understand that and own that. And for those of us who feel like we have very little, inviting the spirit to reveal to us really what we do have. Because oftentimes it's people on, let's say, the bottom of the totem pole, hierarchy wise, that have the most interaction with guests, the most opportunity to reflect God's love directly to that person. And honestly, they're the one that's stewarding. You know, a person who works in retail, a customer service agent, a server at a restaurant, they're stewarding. All of the work that's done behind them. All of the work that the cooks did all day long is all dependent on how I deliver it to this person. And if I sour their experience, they're not going to enjoy the food. And I'm, you know, I didn't steward well all the work that happened behind the scenes. And so understanding power in terms of how God sees it and not the world sees it, and longing to steward that in a way that honors our co workers and those that we serve. I think that's one. I think another one is just how we talked about. How do we create belonging in and through our work once again among those that we work with and those we serve and noticing the people who kind of already naturally belong. And then who are the people that our work naturally pushes to the edges. That could be because of position or hierarchy or money or race or or gender or whatever it might be. And just being captivated by the God who invites us all to belong fully in his family. He makes no distinctions. This is such a powerful theme in the New Testament of this God who broke down all barriers so that everybody could fully, fully belong. And that requires a level of sacrificing, you know, whether it's sacrificing privilege or sacrificing, you know, our own kind of trajectory in order to invite someone to fully belong. And I would say that kind of segues into the third, and that's focusing a little less on our own gifts and self fulfillment and a little more on the work itself and how it loves our neighbor once again. Like seeing ourselves in this bigger drama of, you know, most of my time in restaurants, and I cannot tell you how much I hope and I trust God with wherever he leads me in my vocational journey. But I hope so deeply to work in restaurants again because my heart, I miss it all the time. But most of my time I didn't feel fulfilled in the sense of, like, that I'm using my gifts and I'm doing something in the world that, you know, I felt this tension, right? And now when I look back and I think about just the whole mission that I was playing a part in, I was so focused on myself. And so how can we open ourselves up to see our neighbor and to let God's love flow through us and to see the part that we're playing in the bigger picture and the bigger drama and not so much this constant unrelenting question of am I fulfilled in my work? Am I making an impact in my work, but just receiving what God has set before us and seeing what he does with that.

To quote the great Eminem, lose yourself.

Lose yourself in the music the moment you own it.

That's what you're saying first, maybe last, Eminem reference on the pod. No, that's so good. That's so good, Tina. Steward power for others. Create belonging for others and lose yourself in the moment.

Yeah.

Eminem style. It's so good. It's really good. It's really good. Hey, Tina, three questions we wrap up every pod with. Number one, which books do you find yourself recommending or gifting most frequently to others?

So I mentioned my friend and mentor, Jen Mullins. He co wrote a book with Michael Goheen, who was my kind of resident seminary professor called Symphony of Mission. And it's a beautiful book that really creates a very practical but also very theological, but just like very accessible way of understanding kind of this three part mission of God and how it all fits together. Evangelism, stewarding our work, and loving our neighbor. So that is one that's great for this topic. One that I am deep in right now that I've been loving is called Beholding by Strawn Coleman. And it's all about just being with God and beholding him and pushing back against a consumer mentality when it comes to prayer.

This keeps getting recommended to me on my Kindle.

Ooh.

Okay, so clearly God's speaking to me here. Tina and the Kindle algorithm to go read Beholding by Straw Colvin. I love it. Okay. Hey, who do you want to hear on this pod talking about how the gospel influences the work of mere Christians? Maybe somebody from your show or somebody you'd really love to hear. Unpack these topics. Maybe a dream guest for your own show. Who do you want to hear?

You know what? I just interviewed a dear friend of mine, but if she wasn't a dear friend, I would still feel the same way about her. Her name's Charity Maurer and she is this beautiful mix. She's an entrepreneur, but also just a businesswoman. Like, she has found her gifts and her passion for business. And it's just incredible. The way that I've learned about what it means to take risks and to care about the mission of a business. But she's also a mother of three. And the way that she wrestles through the tension of that and to faithfully seek to honor God in the gifts and the burdens that he's given her is really incredible. So I would have to say her.

Okay, I love that answer. All right, Tina, before we sign off, what's one thing you want to reiterate from our conversation to this audience of mere Christians?

I think just this invitation to join God in his love for the world. Like in a really tangible, felt way, you know, with my kids. The work of loving kids is nothing short of a miracle with young kids. And you know, what fuels it oftentimes is those moments that all litter throughout the day of this deep love for them. Right? Like you just love them and it's, it's embodied and you feel God in it and that is what keeps you going. And just that the work of parenting is not the only type of work that God intends for us to experience. Deep, embodied love for those that we serve. I think that we can experience it in all types of work. And yeah, it's God's invitation and I think it's the sustaining power that can keep us really doing our work before the face of God.

I love that so much. Tina, I want to commend you for the extraordinary work you do for the glory of God and the good of others. Thank you for showing us just what it looks like at a more concrete, three dimensional, practical level to follow Jesus fully in our places of work and reminding us to steward power, to create belonging, and to lose ourselves in service of others. Guys, I would highly recommend Tina's great podcast, Faith, Work and Rest. There's a very old episode with Jordan Raynor if you want to get started there. Tina, thanks so much for hanging out with us today.

Oh, it's been a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

I hope you guys loved that episode as much as I did. Hey, if you've got somebody you'd love to hear on the podcast, I want to hear about it. You could write me@jordanrayner.com contact write me. That's like the oldest thing I've ever said on this show. You can contact me. You jordanrier.com contact and tell me who you want on the show, including yourself. Feel free to nominate yourself. We love it when people do that. Guys, thank you so much for tuning into the Mere Christians podcast. I'll see you next week. Hey friends, this is your last chance to claim all the amazing pre order bonuses for five mere Christians before they go away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9. I've never offered this many pre order bonuses on a book before, so when you fill out the form at 5merechristians.com. Number one, you're going to be entered to win an incredible trip for you and a friend to tour CS Lewis's favorite spots in Oxford, explore Olay, Kirk Christiansen's former stomping grounds at Lego headquarters in Denmark, and much more. Number two, you'll be invited to join my first ever interactive reading culminating in a zoom call with me and my co author on this book, Kaylee Cox. Number three, you're going to be getting a money back guarantee to try the book risk free. And number four, you'll also get access to a free course I'm not selling anywhere called how to write a book 10x faster and better with an Affordable co Author. You can claim all these bonuses in just two simple steps. Step 1 Pre order 5 mere Christians in any format you want. It can be hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever and you can order it from wherever. Doesn't matter to me. STEP 2 Go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form of that page. And that's it. I'll send you all those bonuses. You'll be entered into the sweepstakes with one simple form submission. But hey, don't wait all of these off. All of these offers, all these bonuses. They're going away at 11:59pm Eastern Standard Time on May 9th. So visit 5MereChristians calm right now to claim your bonuses.