Tim Keller (Founder of Redeemer Presbyterian Church)

The episode you're about to listen to was released back when the Mere Christians podcast was called the Call to Mastery. Now, if you love Mere Christians, you're.

Still going to love these older episodes.

Because the majority of each conversation focuses.

On how the gospel influences the work of our guests.

With that disclaimer out of the way.

Please enjoy the episode.

Hey everybody. Welcome to the Call to Mastery. I'm Jordan Raynor. This is a podcast for Christians who want to do their most exceptional work for the glory of God and the good of others. Every week I'm bringing you a conversation with a Christ follower who is pursuing world class mastery of their craft. We talk about their path to mastery. We talk about their daily habits and how their faith influences their work. Today's guest really needs no introduction, but I'm going to give him one anyway. On my list of dream guests for this podcast, he is easily numbers one through five. That's right. Today I'm talking with Tim Keller. He of course, is the founding pastor of Redeemer Presbyterian Church in New York City and author of some of the best selling books of our time, including the Reason for God, the Prodigal God, and of course, Every Good Endeavor. If that title sounds familiar to you, it's probably because it's the most recommended book by guests of the Call to Mastery. It's also kind of the reason why this podcast exists, why my work exists, why my books exist. Years ago, I read Every Good Endeavor. First time I really understood the biblical narrative for work. It's what inspired me to write, Called to Create, and the rest is history. Nobody has had a greater impact on my faith and my work than Tim. Talk about a tough interview to prepare for. By the way, my wife Kara, we were talking just before this. She's like, what in the world are you going to ask the person who's had such a profound impact on your life? It wasn't easy calling it all down, but Tim and I sat down. We talked about how the church to respond to COVID 19, which of his books he hoped would reach a wider audience than they eventually did. And we talked about Lecrae and CS Lewis and other artists that point to God's master narrative for the world through their work. You guys are going to love this conversation.

Without further ado, here's Tim Keller.

Tim Keller, thanks for joining me. I appreciate it.

Here I am glad to be with you, Jordan.

So you're in New York City today.

Your longtime beloved home. Obviously the city shut down. We're recording this on April 6th, a city shut down due to COVID 19.

And I personally have been spending a.

Lot of time in Philippians thinking about Paul and the letter he wrote when he was in relative isolation and saying that even those circumstances the Lord used to advance the gospel. So my first question for you is how can the church be thinking about these circumstances right now in the middle of COVID 19 in this crisis to advance the gospel in our communities and particularly at work?

I think, listen, this may sound like a weaseling out after 911 that was more in New York City here than anywhere else. But after 911 it took a while for us to figure out what would be the unique and right response. Generally speaking, most Christian churches and ministries are going to have to do more with less. That is to say, on the one hand there's going to be more opportunities to minister to people, more fearful people, perhaps more both people inside and outside the church that you might be able to deal with. And yet you're almost. I could be wrong, but most churches and ministries are going to be facing decreased revenue, income giving. And so you're going to be in this position where you're going to need to not only do more, not just for your own people, but even for your communities that are going to be hurting. You know, there may be 25% more opportunity and 25% less money. And that was an 11th thing. You not only had to figure out what is our unique way to show the love of Christ right now and you also have to ask how do we do it for less and what that's going to look like? I think it's going to be several months from now before we know, partly because whenever people say oh, it's just devastating us, but we don't really know how much. So for example, will there be, you know, when I talk to all the financial people, the economic forecasts are all over the map. Is there going to be a fairly fast bounce back? Will there be pent up demand and by the fourth quarter stocks will be going up and things will be getting better? Or are we talking about two years rather than three or four months? How bad will the unemployment be? I don't think we know. I really don't. Also another thing is if every community goes through what New York is going through, that's another issue. If it doesn't, if you all out there because you shut down earlier, if you escape this, that'll be great and you will be back to normal faster. So I just don't know that the answer. I told you there have to Be ingenuity. There'll have to be ways of reaching your non Christian neighbors and community in ways that you usually don't have to worry about or think about. And you have to do it with less resources. But exactly what that looks like, I won't know. I don't think we know yet.

Yeah, no, I think that's right. Let's talk about something you do know. It's about as elegant a transition as I can make from the dark subject of COVID 19.

Let's talk about craft.

Right?

We talk a lot here on the call to mastery of craft and what it takes to become masterful or whatever that guest's vocational discipline is. You are my all time favorite nonfiction writer and so broad open ended question. Curious to see where you take this. What are the keys to mastering your craft? Of communicating really clearly in the way that you do in your books and your preaching?

Okay, that's fair. When you start talking about craft. I was saying I'm a pastor. What craft? And then I realized no Communication, of course, verbal communication. I am still more interested in oral communication than written. First of all, I am vastly better at it. I'm very happy you like my writing, but I am far better at it at oral communication. That doesn't mean I'm polished, never have been. Don't speak in complete sentences like my British friend. Am not necessarily all that dynamic like, you know, African American and my African American Hispanic members, when they would bring their friends to Redeemer, before they brought them, they used to say, now listen, contrary to what it looks like, I want you to know he really does love Jesus. Because I wasn't all that passionate and demonstrative. And yet I think partly by temperament, because it's not an act, but also partly by God's providence, I learned to do oral communication in a way in New York City to mixed crowds of believers and non believers very effectively, I think. And it was increasingly effective. I know that. How effective? I don't know on a scale to what, to what. But I do know on my own scale from where I was when I got here to where I got to, I did get better. And that's one craft. Now, putting it into writing, I'm nowhere near as good. I need far more help.

How do you get that help? How do you see?

Okay, listen, I would say almost every writer needs this, so maybe their might be a few that don't. You've got to be willing to take lots and lots of criticism. I kind of go more with my instincts and often do Things differently than other people would say. And I feel like it has paid off. I can't do that to me. For the average writer to be a good writer, I would say I'm average by myself. And I can become good if I just do over and over rewrites, rewrites. And tons and tons of feedback. From who? My wife, of course. And I have an editor at Penguin Random Penguin who's quite good. And I have my wife. And I always get at least that. But the best would be if you have time to give it to other people. And also 10 rewrites, 15 rewrites, really. Over and over again. Here's one. Kathy and I read it out loud. Every single book.

Yeah. I read this.

You write it as if you're preaching.

Right. You read it as if you're preaching.

Because you actually can't hear the stupidity. No, the infelicities. You can't hear the infelicities. Even though writing style and oral style is very different, nevertheless, when you read it out loud, you start to say, oh, that was repetitious, or that's not the best way to do it. So we read the entire book out loud to each other and catch things we would never catch if we were just going through it on the page. So anyway, just the constant over and over. On the other hand, my oral communication. I would definitely say that every sermon needs to be basically written about six times.

Yeah.

On the other hand, the books need to be written more like 60.

Yeah. I don't know of a book in your portfolio that you can point to that could have been deemed a commercial failure.

But I'm really curious.

Is there one that stands out in your mind? You're like, man, I really thought that one was going to reach more people or people were going to resonate it with at a deeper level than they actually did.

Kathy and I did a little Meaning of marriage devotional.

Yeah.

365. Which actually didn't sell as well. Right. At which. That just came out like four months ago. It's a little early, but it didn't sell all that well. But part of it is. And my publisher will tell you when you have a crisis like this, same thing with 9 11. When it comes to promoting things, it's hard to get anybody to pay attention to anything.

But the only thing people are talking about.

That's right. So you can't do it. But anyway, I would say making Sense of God, in spite of the fact that, you know, plenty of people have read it, it's very clear Communicators have read it. But when it comes to being broadly out there, as much as like Reason for God, I really wish that half as many people, I think Reason for God sold quite a lot. And making sense that God hasn't even sold maybe a fifth. And I actually think in some ways for a lot of non Christians it's a better book.

I agree, I agree. I think for the non Christian it is a better book, but it's also younger, right?

It's younger. I mean, I actually. Well, what do you mean by younger? You mean it's newer or.

Yeah, yeah, it's a newer title.

Yeah, yeah. But also I actually there was a book club in Washington D.C. with some friends of mine, some Christians and some non Christians in their book club, very prominent older guys, and they decided they were going to read the book and they asked me to come on down and talk with them about it. And exactly what I hoped it was really well received. And I got a letter from one very prominent, non believing person, a very secular person who said, he said, you know what? And he's like in his early 70s and very well known person, you might know if I gave it the name. And he wrote me and he said for the first time I actually believe that intellectually I now see that Christianity has credibility and I'm open to the case. And what he meant by that was he said, I always felt like no matter what people told me about it, does this for you or the Bible or whatever, I always felt like, well, it's just not possible for a rational, sensible person to even be open to it. And he said all the book did was it showed me, oh my goodness, you know what, I really can't do that anymore. There is a real case for it and I should be willing to explore it. So I actually think the book would have better impact on more secular people. And Reason for God is a little more, for folks that are close or even for hate to say it, evangelical kids who are starting to get doubts about their faith and then they read it and they say, oh, it's okay.

Yeah, no, it's true. So I think some people think you step down for preaching, you're going to retire.

Obviously you're not retired.

You're on back to back interviews today. You're doing work with Reform Theological and Redeemer City to City, which you of course founded. What does your typical day look like? Well, not these days, let's say pre self quarantine days. What does a day in the life of Tin Koer look Like, well, it depends.

I try to have days to write and I try to have days to be out doing everything. But I'd say a quarter of my time has been teaching, so we're teaching ministry students. So I'm basically quarter time a seminary professor, you might say. Another quarter of the time has been traveling and speaking in a variety of ways. But I'm actually pretty happy. I feel well used. I feel well used. Who wants to be used? But the point is, I work for Redeemer City to city. And so what Redeemer City to City does is they'll take me to places in this country, but they'll also take me to. Over the last two years, I've been to Mexico City, Rio de Janeiro, Sao Paulo, Seoul, Taipei, Kuala Lumpur.

Not a bad gig.

London, Krakow, Poland, and Chicago. And I've done conferences in every one of those places. And here's the good thing. The books draw people in, Right. And basically, if you get a thousand people in the room, you do a conference, and then you say, we want to help you plant churches in your city. And guess what? 10 or 15% of the people sign up.

Yeah.

So, and if I go, I can not only help them, but I gather them in that particular country because the books are in like 80 languages all over the place. Yeah. And so the books end up being a way for us to basically have convening power. And when I get them in the room, I do a conference. Fine. But it's what I love about it is the outcomes.

Yeah. You love the work afterwards, right?

Yeah. If somebody says to me, well, please go to Colorado Springs and talk to 10,000 kids about why they shouldn't have sex before marriage. And you might say, wow, 10,000 kids. I'm not going to do it. Right.

Not interested.

Yeah, no, no, Somebody else can do that. Yeah. But probably you're not gonna be able to get somebody else, perhaps in Kuala Lumpur, to get a whole lot of, say, Chinese house church pastors together. And then you challenge them. And actually, two years later, you can see exactly X number signed up, X number of new churches. See? So that's pretty exciting. But that is a lot of work. I mean, when I do one of those things, it basically takes essentially a month out of my life.

Wow.

Basically. So there's like, I can do two of those in a year, and I think I may not be able to keep doing that. So there's the convening power, there's the teaching, and then there's the writing. And then actually there's miscellaneous, which I could break into 10 other things. As you know, there's always.

Yeah, sure, always.

By the way, you know, you're writing.

At a frenetic pace. I should say you're publishing at a frenetic base. You published these three book kind of combination on birth, on marriage, on death. And you just came out with Uncommon, which I loved. Just finished up the advanced copy this weekend.

We're going to release this a day.

After it comes out, so you guys can go buy a copy right now. I got a question about the book, but first, can you give our listeners a 30 second overview of this newest title, Uncommon Ground?

Yeah, the overview is this, is that John Inazu, who's my co editor for this book, wrote a book called Confident Pluralism. Academic book, basically. How do Christians engage with people who are not believers in the public sphere in a way that even though we can't even agree on what the common good is, that is we can't agree on common good. Like what is a good society? We don't agree. On the other hand, is there any way to find common ground, to continually dialogue and find some overlapping areas of commitment where we can be good neighbors and instead of just fighting with each other? Another background book would be James Hunter's book to Change the World. Yeah.

Such a great title.

Yeah. Both those books basically are talking about a way of not withdrawing, not dominating, not assimilating, but staying engaged and being civil and still being yourself, still being a Christian. Both those books are academic books.

Yeah.

And this book is essentially a set of essayists, all of whom totally buying those two books. And now we're saying this is how it fleshes out in our lives. So it's case studies.

Yeah. So I want to talk about one of those essays. So I love the essay from Lecrae.

Isn't that a great essay?

It is a great essay.

I loved it.

I want to see you and Lecrae.

Watching some of your co favorite movies here. He's a big lion the Witch of the Wardrobe fan, Lord of the Rings fan. I know that's some of your favorites.

And I love this essay because Lecrae.

Talks about why we love these stories. Right. Because they are so artfully revealing. God's master narrative for the world. Right.

But I knew a lot of Christians.

Who had never described the work of those filmmakers and authors as redemptive or eternally significant. Right. It's not like Sam Frodo, come on at the end of the film and.

Like walk the audience through a track. So here's my question.

Is it good enough?

Is it eternally significant to just make.

People long for that master narrative? Is that God glorifying in and of itself?

Well, listen, if you were an evangelical Christian and you wrote Lord of the Rings. Well, actually, you know, Tolkien obviously was a devout Catholic.

Yeah.

He went about it differently. The answer is yeah. The short answer is yes. In fact, there's non Christians who are glorifying God.

Absolutely.

The way, you know, Psalm 19 says, the heavens are glorifying God, and they're not even people. So, yeah. I mean, here's what I get from Lecrae. Lecrae says that the world's narratives are reductionistic. So he says, take a look at a young black kid being shot. One narrative is, it's always the cops are the bad people. It's never the black poor community. It's always the cops are the bad people. The other narrative, of course, is the cops are always okay. I mean, they are dangerous, their lives on the line. There's all these bad characters out there, and of course they're gonna make some mistakes sometime. And he says those are reductionistic because only. And here's where he's being totally reformed, by the way. He says, creation is good and yet it's fallen. And therefore, the world will either try to idolize one thing and demonize something else, but whatever you idolize is actually a fallen, created thing. And whatever you demonize is actually something creationally good. And therefore, Christianity is actually more nuanced than any other point of view. It actually says, look, there's sin and grace running all through here. The real villain is not the cops or the kids. The real villain is sin. And the real redemption, of course, is only in Christ. And so what Lecrae is doing is he says, Christianity just makes you more nuanced. It kind of complicates those old narratives. And you can find both sin and redemption in so many of the best stories. I love it.

I like the line. It was something to the effect of, nobody is exclusively a villain or a hero.

Right.

I like that angle in his essay.

All right, three quick questions that we.

End every conversation with. Number one, which books do you gift the most or recommend most frequently to others?

This has to be C.S. lewis books. Sorry. And which ones? Depends on the person.

What's your favorite? Do you have a favorite favorites Lewis titles?

Probably the Great Divorce. Yeah, I do. There's things in there just make me cry every time. What I liked about it is it's didactic. I mean, you know, Lewis is preachy, you know, he's not hard to decipher, but. But on the other hand, there's wonderful images, you know, Sarah Smith of Golders Green, you know, where they. This incredible figure. She looks like a goddess who's so beautiful in heaven and on earth. She was like, nobody knew who she was. She was just. She never married, just very plain, not very good looking, never had any money. She was Sarah Smith at Golden's Green. And yet, of course, fame in heaven and fame on earth are two different things. I'm sorry. I love it. Whether we gift it, it depends on the person because we certainly have given mere Christianity. Many people screw tape letters to many people. The Narnia Chronicles to plenty of people.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure. By the way, we had Lewis's stepson, Douglas Gresham on the podcast a few.

Months ago, and I'm pretty sure he said the Great Divorce. I asked him specifically which title of.

His stepdads, and I'm pretty sure he said Great Divorce. I got to look it up. I'll let you know.

All right, who would you most like.

To hear talk about how their faith influences their work?

I actually do know somebody I have heard, but I do find it interesting listening to Francis Collins. You know, we actually differ on Francis. And I have gone back and forth both in private and public about whether there was an Adam and Eve, but he's one of the leading scientists in the whole world, and he is an extremely thoughtful Christian and a wise person. So I always love to hear how he sees his faith having a, you know, bearing on the way in which he's, you know, he's also basically in charge. He's my age and he's in charge of the nih, which is the vastly. The biggest funder of scientific research in the world. He's doing a great job.

That's a terrific answer. I like that.

All right, last question.

Single piece of advice to leave this audience with who they're seeking to do exceptional work, primarily for God's glory and the good of others. What would you leave them with?

I can almost guarantee, unless you're a terrible introvert. Some people are horribly introverted and probably need to get out more. But mostly that's probably not your.

But not right now.

I know. However, I think most of your folks underestimate the importance of prayer, reading, and solitude. When you get to the end of your life, you're going to say, I should have put way more time into prayer, reading and solitude.

That's a good answer. Hey, Tim, thank you for spending decades mastering your craft so that millions of people like me could understand the Gospel at a deeper level.

Thank you for helping open our eyes to what the Bible has to say.

About work and the good gift that work is and how it contributes to the unfolding of the kingdom.

Thank you for inspiring us all to.

Work not for our own glory, but for the glory of God and the good of others. Hey.

Tim's newest book is Uncommon Ground.

I can't recommend it highly enough. Make sure to go pick up a copy today. Tim, thank you so much for spending some time with me today.

Well, thank you and it's great to meet you.

That was an absolute joy. One of the great honors of my life. Thanks for forgiving me for fanboying so hard, everybody. Hey, before you go, I got an announcement to make that I'm really excited about. A lot of you have asked us if we would aggregate the great books recommended by guests on the Call to Master, including the great Divorce that Tim just mentioned. That's why this week we have launched join jordanraynor.com bookshelf which makes it super easy for you to find books recommended by every single guest on the Call to Mastery. We've also added a leaderboard of the most recommended books ever on the podcast and how many times they've been recommended. And then in addition to that, I have curated lists with my personal recommendations for the best books I've ever read in a bunch of different categories, from faith of work to general Christian living to entrepreneurship and the craft of writing. All of that is there@jordanraynor.com bookshelf and in honor of today's guest, I've added a list of my top 10 favorite books by Tim Keller. I think I've read everything Tim's ever published. By my count, that's more than 25 titles at this point. All of them are great, but these 10 are the very best. Again, you're going to find the all all of those books@jordanraynor.com bookshelf. Thank you guys so much for joining me for this special episode of the Call to Mastery. I'll see you next week.