Vineet Rajan (CEO of Forte)

Today's episode will begin in three minutes. But first I want to tell you about something crazy I'm doing for my new book, five Mere Christians. I've never seen an author do this before, but I'm giving a money back.

Guarantee on this book.

I'm so confident you're gonna love this book that if I'm wrong, if you pre order the book, you don't love it, I'm gonna send you a $20Amazon gift card as a money back guarantee. Why? Two reasons. One, this is a different book for me, right. I know this is a very different biography. What is Jordan Rayner doing? And I know it's risky, so I'm going to de risk it for you. Because listen, in my other books, Redeeming youg Time, the Sacredness of Secular Work, Master of One, etc, etc, I am telling you and me how we can glorify God in our work, but in five Mere Christians, I'm doing something very different. I'm showing you what that looks like practically through these unforgettable life stories of five Mere Christians from history. These are the top men and women that I would love to have on this podcast today if, you know, they weren't dead, right? So that's the first reason this is a risk and I'm gonna de risk.

This book for you.

Here's the second reason. I'm just confident you're gonna love this book. My friend Mark Batterson said, quote, five Mere Christians proves that biographies can be extremely entertaining, profoundly helpful, and mercifully short. If you're looking for a book that combines the punch of a great sermon with the pace of a great thriller, this is it. Highly recommended.

End quote. But here's the thing.

In order to qualify for this money back guarantee, you got to do two things. Step one, pre order five Mere Christians in any format, hardback, ebook, audiobook, whatever. And then step two, go to 5merechristians.com and fill out the form on that page and that's it. But you got to do it by midnight Eastern Time on May 9. By filling out that form, you'll also get all of the pre order bonuses listed on 5 mereChristians. Calm and be entered to win this crazy, epic trip for two to Europe. So visit 5meerchristians.com right now to sign up. Now, please enjoy today's episode. Hey friend. Welcome to the Mere Christians Podcast. I'm Jordan Raynor. How does the Gospel influence the work of mere Christians? Those of us who aren't pastors or religious professionals, but who work as lumberjacks loss prevention managers and infantry officers. That's the question we explore every week, and today I'm posing it to Vineet Rajan, CEO and co founder of Forte, which I can't wait for you to learn about today. Prior to Forte, Vineet founded another startup and served as a venture capitalist. After serving as a Marine intelligence officer for more than a decade in Iraq and Afghanistan, Vineet holds an MBA from Stanford and another master's with distinction from.

The University of Cambridge. In short, Vineet is a really brilliant and accomplished guy.

Vinit and I recently sat down to discuss how Forte is providing Soul Care.

As a service for some of the world's largest companies.

We talked about how to practically stop working for love and start working from.

The love that is perfectly secure through Christ alone.

And we talked about why you and I should praise God for inevitably giving us more than we can handle. Trust me, you're not going to want.

To miss this terrific episode with my friend Vineet Rajan. Vineet, welcome to Beer Christians Podcast, brother.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

This is like one of the most fun pre recording conversations. We could have riffed on Cambridge for like, I don't know, another 10 minutes. You spent a couple of years there. Is that your favorite little town in the uk?

It's my honestly, this is maybe the most un American thing to say out loud. It's one of my most favorite towns that I've ever lived in, period.

Full stop.

It's just beautiful. They're the most wildly interesting people running around that place, the river cutting through it, good food and pubs to be had every block. What is there not to like? Except for maybe the fact the weather isn't exactly great?

It's not great.

It's great. In the summer.

My wife and I were there. Maybe it was late summer, maybe early fall, like September, something like that. And did all the touristy things, went punting down the river. We went to the bar where Watson and Crick declared that they had discovered the DNA helix, which was super fun. It's an incredible town.

Totally. And we know, you know, they call it British summertime. British summertime is really like three weeks. If you blink, you might miss it. But. But those three weeks are amazing, amazing, amazing.

Hey, we're going to get to Forte and the work you're doing today in a minute, but I want to start at the beginning of your story. You, you started your professional story with your service in the United States Marines. Everything you touched seemed to be turning to gold during that time, why did you leave?

Well, that's a good question. So I joined the Marines. I was a high school senior when 911 happened. I grew up just 40 minutes outside of D.C. as most Americans can recall. I was a monumental time in our season of life, both as a. As a nation, but also individually. So, yeah, the Marines were. I thought I would join the Marines for a couple of years, serve my time and serve our country. I felt compelled to do so. I felt called to do so. And then somewhere in that process, over four years, Jordan, like, I experienced success. I felt God's pleasure literally being in the service, led men in combat in Iraq and Afghanistan, and then did a bunch of weird things, part of which got me to Cambridge, England, as a British intel officer. But in that, over that decade, I started really experiencing every kind of success that I could have imagined. And I would come home and tell my wife. I was like, I don't know what's going on. Someone's going to find out that I have no idea what I'm doing.

Right, right, right. Somebody's gonna realize I'm an idiot at some point.

Yeah, someone is gonna realize I. Look, I don't really.

That's how I felt my entire career.

That's right. That's right. And that kind of tells you it's not about us, it's about Jesus. Right. But I made that mistake where I started believing it was more about me. I started believing I cared more about what men said about me and who I was and what God said about me and who I was. And that's a fatal flaw.

And that showed up in those insecurities and fears that I'm going to be found out. Is that what you're saying? No.

No. It showed up when God. God does not want part of my heart or your heart. He wants all of it. God does not want part of it. He does not want the leftovers. He does not want the piecemeal. He wants all of it. And in God's infinite mercy, he kind of made it clear he wants all of mine. And in Cambridge, walking around the river and in the gardens, I started hearing in a very clear way that God was saying, it's time for you to leave the Marines. And I had no desire. I had the medals on my chest. I was a major. I had the combat tours under my belt. People were saying things about me that were hard to believe in my time in the. In the Marines. And I was like, why would I leave? The thing that I've known since I was 16. And to do what? I had no answers. So I left the Marines because God called me out of the Marines and I knew what kind of life I wanted to live. I wanted to live a life of conviction and of faith, regardless of the cost. It's easy to say. It's hard to execute. I. I was scared and cried for a year straight. Literally cried for a year straight. But I want. I knew that I wanted to be the man that said, no matter what men said of me, if God's voice said something, I'm going that direction every day, twice on Sunday. And so it only matters when you're tried, right? Like, God's word is good if you read it from a cognitive perspective. It is amazing when it. When you embody it. And so I left because of that. And I had. And just to be clear now, hindsight being what it was, I had no idea what to do. I was a major, I had two children. I was living in a foreign country, and I had no idea who I was outside of the Marine Corps uniform. So when I left, I kind of, the next day was like, okay, Lord, what is the plan? So that is not to say that I had it all planned and figured out and I had a plan B or I had no plan. I did everything in violation of what I tell Marines when they leave the service to do, which is, I always say, hey, have a plan, transition, do all the thing. I did none of that. I just left because I felt God said to leave, and so I did.

Was that jump what made the word come alive to you in a fresh new way and embodying this faith that you understood cognitively, but maybe not experientially.

So I grew up listening to the. Like, I loved apologetics, right? I loved the cognitive aspect. I love defending the worldview that we all espouse and hold dear. I grew up in kind of under, like, trying to understand how to make sense of it all. But honestly, for being. If I'm being honest with myself, I didn't really have to sacrifice that much for it. Right?

Your Christianity wasn't costing you very much.

It wasn't cost. I mean, yeah, it cost me in so much as, like, I didn't live a lifestyle, maybe that some of the other Marines that I grew up with lived or whatever, but it didn't really cost me a ton. I didn't. I didn't, like, in so much as, like, I was experiencing success, right? And while there was hardships, there was definitely hardships in being in the Marines and serving in Iraq and Afghanistan, other things. There was some. There were some real costs there, but I kind of grew to love it. So this was the first time where I was faced with my own, like, hey, you have a normative thought in your head that says this is how you ought to. You want to live. And here's a real costly decision you're going to have to make. In the absence of, like, objective, quantifiable, measurable outcomes. What are you going to decide? Vinit. And I had to, like, really wrestle with that. So that was probably. It has been in my short life so far, the hardest decision I've ever had to make.

Yeah. Okay. So you leave the Marines. You have no clue what's next. Fast forward to today. You're running this venture called Forte. What's the path from there to here?

Yeah. Okay, so. So the day after I resigned, anytime that any person's been in this moment of desperation and so flip through the Psalms and you'll. You'll know very quickly that what that could sound like and feel like, if.

You need language for desperation, Psalms is a pretty good place.

Yeah, yeah. Psalms is. Romans used to be my favorite chapter in the Bible or book in the Bible. That makes sense for lots of reasons, as I just suggested, the apologetics, perspective and the cognitive thing and the argumentation and all that other. Psalms is now my favorite book in the Bible because it speaks to the human condition in a way that I've now experienced. Right. Which is like, desperation for God to show up. Desperation for God to, like, see me where I am, even though I know that he. He does cognitively sometimes doesn't feel like that. So the next day I resign and I'm like, okay, Lord, I'm in. I am all in, more than I've ever thought I was. Chips are all in. I'll do whatever you say, however you say it. And even in that moment of desperation and saying, okay, let's do this, I did, of course, as. As I want to do, try to negotiate with Jesus and say, please don't make me a pastor. Because I grew up in the church in that my. My parents were associate pastors. They were missionaries. I'm very close to our. Our senior pastor at our church. I'm on the board. I love serving the church and my kind of binary perspective or personality being all in or out. I thought, oh, my gosh, he's going to call me into the church full time. Which. Your book, the Sacredness of Secular Work. I didn't have that book as a guiding measure back then. Right. The thing is, like, well, you're either ministry or you're not.

It was black and white binary.

It was black and white. It was binary. And I was a. I was back then a very black and white binary kind of human. And. And so I said, please don't make me a pastor. And God said, like, you know, in so much as I could hear his voice, he said, oh, you're going to be a pastor. You're just going to be a pastor in the marketplace. And I was like, I don't even know what that means. I was like, all right, Lord, I don't know what to do with that. What do you want me to do now? I don't have a job, and I got two kids that you gave me and a lovely wife you gave me and a family and lots of hopes and dreams. What do you want to do? He said, I'm going to send you to business school. And I said, oh, my gosh, I don't want to go to business school. I just got done with getting my degree at Cambridge. And so I was like, I was kind of over the academic life a little bit, but he sent me to business school, and he took me from one beautiful garden to another beautiful garden in California. Weather was way better in California. And while I was there, God said, hey, you know, I'm here. What do you want to do here? And he said, you're going to lead a company. And fast forward, I thought I meant to buy one, but he actually meant to start one. I didn't have the courage to start one. But God is always taking you deeper in the water than every any one of us wants to be. That's where his power reigns supreme and we're able to hold on to Him. Right? If you and I could just do it on our own volition, we would. And God would get no glory in that. So he keeps dragging me into places where I'm like, I can't swim this deep. I don't know how to do any of this. And so here's Forte literally started as a prayer walk in the woods a couple of years ago. And God said, you're going to start this company. And I said, why, Lord? He said, because you love people, and I made you to take care of them. And now Forte, which means strength, is really about unlocking people's strength, the strength that got put into them, right, In a personal, proactive way. And we serve thousands of people across the country, whether they're a blockchain, engineer, a teacher at a Christian private school. You're a Christian nonprofit or. Many of the churches we serve across the country, we help them experience the adventure of life. Not alone, not in isolation, and hearing God's truth in that walk. So that's how we got here.

That's good.

All right.

That sounds very esoteric though. More practically, what does Forte do for customers? Who's the customer? What are you helping them do?

Yeah, it's great. So we are a B2B mental health offering. We're a non clinical mental health offering. So let me unpack that a little bit. So Forte is the world's first soul care as a service mental wellness platform that's designed to proactively and personally serve every single person in your organization in their adventure. Adventure of life. We do this with a non clinical, unlimited, confidential service where every single person, let's call it 100 person church, 100 person private school, a hundred person franchise, can choose their own guide, which is what we call our people, and they can process the seemingly mundane to the monumental moments of their life through confidentiality and in an unlimited way where they can process the things that matter. And so what happens is all a hundred people can choose their guide. Male, female, African American, Asian, Hispanic, Caucasian. You know, it doesn't really matter. You get agency and then you have, you can have unlimited calls with that human. So let's go back to me as an example. There I was in the marines in Cambridge, 11 years senior, trying to process the biggest decision of my life. And who could I talk to? Well, I could talk to my family, but they're burdened with the decision making that I'm going to have to make that is going to have profound impact on their life. And so they're tied into this decision. I could talk to my church. I'm very close to my members of my church. But the thing is, I would have to literally explain hours and hours of my life to them on a regular basis. And I'd have more calls and I want more conversations than they're willing to give. Because they're a normal human. They got other things going on in their life and I certainly was not going to talk to my CEO about it. Right. Forte answers that problem that we all experience, which is we want. We are in some ways have so much going on in our soul and it feels selfish to process all of that out loud with somebody. And we don't want to burden our spouses or our family members. We don't want to burden our members in our local congregation. And we probably don't want to Talk to our boss about it. That is not to say that Forte is here to replace any of those relationships. They're key. But in this ever increasingly isolated and lonely world where we have to always perform for love and service, it seems Forte provides an antidote to that, which is to say that you can be yourself with somebody and you're not going to run into them in the grocery store, you're not going to run into them in the church, you're not going to run into them in the park. But you can like take off the mask, as my pastor says, and actually be able to be just yourself. And in that process, you can have questions asked to you that actually reveal the truth that you already know to be true, that you might need a little bit of encouragement and courage to actually pursue it. So that's what Forte provides at a high level. We, of course, provide content and data analytics, employers and employers, what they get at the end of that as a much healthier organization. But both at the organizational level and at the individual level, people stay longer at their organization. People are healthier, people are more productive. All of those ROI things we can prove to be true. But the thing that we're really trying to say is we can help you love on your people in a way that you want to, but you just can't.

Yeah. You were telling me before we start recording that when you guys launch, for some people you were not Christian enough. Right. Like the T in Forte was not a cross. You didn't stamp John 3:16 on everything. Speak to that and why you think there's intrinsic value in what you're doing even when you're not being super overt and faith forward in. In the business.

Well, so when we start, you know, when you're a startup, there is a long list of people and organizations, rightfully or wrongfully, that are skeptical. Right. The world is full of startups that don't make it for lots of reasons. Right. Statistically, startups don't work. Right. And you know, unfortunately for us, or fortunately for us, there were a lot of people. My co founder, William is very well known in the faith driven entrepreneur, faith driven investor world. He worked at Sovereigns Capital, et cetera. John Talbert, who is our chief guide, started with us on day one. He's a pastor for 30 years, PhD trained Oakland AIDS chaplain, et cetera. We have, we have our own history, the three of us, in serving in real, practical and tactical ways in the marketplace. We have enough of that. However, we weren't Christian enough. Right. We didn't tell everybody that Jesus is the only way. Truth and life. We didn't put John 3:16. We didn't have a fish. We didn't have a cross. And they would call us in private and say, you need to be more of faith forward. And I said, well, we're not hiding our faith. If you Google any of our names, you know exactly who we are. We're a praxis company. Right? You don't become a praxis company if you're not trying to integrate your faith into your vocation. However, what I would tell, what I would try to reply to them is, hey, hey, there is a whole world out there of people that sadly will never cast a shadow on a church door. Who is there to serve them? Who is there to till the soil that you are so hard, like, so working so digitally to spread the seed on? But that soul is never ready to hear it, never ready to accept it. I said my calling, our calling is to serve both, not just the only. Right. I want to go serve that one out of the 99. Not just the 99. The 99 are important.

And doing that requires not being super overt about your why in this current cultural context all the time, in every situation.

Well, so. So let's talk about that. Right? So the philosophy of soul care is publicly available. We tell every employer their employee is made of a body, soul, and a spirit. That is more of the gospel than they will ever hear.

That's right.

Right. So let's first start by talking to employers in the 21st century and say you want the whole employee to show up. You know what that means? They have a soul. They have a spirit, and it's worthy to know about that. Right. So, no, we're taking the good news to the public markets. We're just not saying, oh, and let me tell you the verse that particularly articulates that. Right?

You're using language that's accessible and can build common ground.

That's 100%. That's like, William always makes fun of me, like, hey, I like to read Dallas Willard. Most humans won't. Right. I like to read Augustine and Aquinas. Most people won't. But most of our lived experience is still built on the thoughts of these men. It doesn't devalue the fact that the people who are living with these things that were built before us, that are true, that we can't cite why it is they are true. It's still true. Yes.

And all truth is God's truth. That's right.

That's Right. And if we serve Fortune 500 companies, do you think a Fortune 500 company is going to partner with a vendor that is, Is walking out with? John 3:16. Unlikely. Right. But we got to change thousands of people's lives in the process. I'm not really, we're not really that worried about who gets the credit. We, we just want to do the work that God called us to do.

Amen. It's really good.

I love.

This is something I'm super passionate about. As you know, in the synchronous of secular work.

Right.

I think we, we feel this pressure to have to give an overt and explicit evangelistic reason for everything we do. And Jesus didn't. I mean, he, he was pretty cagey. In a lot of those sermons, in a lot of those miracles, we just show up and serve and in the way that we serve, point them to truth. I really like the way I've heard you articulate forte before Vinit as fighting against this lie that employees are only as valuable as what they produce. I was just really curious, like, what have you seen as some language, maybe some policies and procedures within organizations that a lot of for profit organizations are using to explicitly or implicitly send that message that their people are only as valuable as what they can do for the business?

Yeah. So that's great. Like, it's not even just in work, Jordan. It's in every part of our life, even the language that we use. Right. So how many times have you heard, let's hack this, let's hack that. Right. Like we can just increase the efficiency.

Yeah. Or I don't have the bandwidth. As if I'm a computer.

I don't have the bandwidth. I need to take a download. I need all of the language that you and I, whether intentionally or unintentionally, are communicating, articulating to one another suggests that, like, there's just more optimization that's required, more efficiency that's required. And what underpins that? Well, our life is only valuable in so much as that. What we're, how much money we can put in our bank, how many people know us, how many things we can produce, what our title and our role is. All of those things are like, it's the highway in which many of us live our lives. It is the worldview that many Christians or non Christians acknowledge and live by. Right. And so let's talk about the D.C. maryland, Virginia area where I'm from. If you say your name, it's cool. The very next thing you're going to say in this Area is what do you do for a living? Now, the things that make me me aren't that I happen to lead forte, it's that I believe in Jesus, that I'm married to my lovely wife for almost 17 years, that I'm the father of two, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Those are way more important things that are more enduring about who I am and than this season I happen to find myself in. And that's probably true for most Americans across the United States, if not people all over the world. Right? And so this is just, I just want to say the ocean that we're swimming in is this idea that we have to constantly be earning our right to be here. And God, he said, it's finished, the work is done, dude. Right? And so like, this lie that we're trying to fight against, the lie that I have believed in myself, that I constantly have to fight, is God doesn't need me to do a thing. He might invite me to do something with him. That's an opportunity, not an obligation. Right. I'm a son, not a slave.

God doesn't need me. He wants me.

That's right. And so that lie permeates everything in our language. And it's true at work right now. Let's just be clear, like, I don't want to demonize that part of it. Right. People aren't going to hire somebody and pay salary and benefits and all the things if you don't do stuff. Right. You need to do stuff. Right? Like you need to be good at your craft. Right. But we've over indexed on this productivity game and we lost the personhood production. Yeah. Production is not more important than the person.

Right.

The order matters. We're human beings. And William hates when I say this, or he kind of loves it because it's kind of nerdery. That's what I do here. It's being. It's not in be. We got to learn to be and then do. But we've been doing it the opposite. We've been learning to do and we don't know who we are.

That's really good. One of the terms I hate the most that I think sends this message is human resources. I hate this term. Sky Gitani and I were talking about this on the podcast a while back. He's like, humans are not resources. They're image bearers.

Right?

Like they are people. I mean, this is really what Forte is practically pushing back against.

Yes, that's right. 100%. 100%. There is a soul worthy to Be known that they're actually. That all of us have a story worthy of being of being told, and we're the protagonists of that story. And that they matter. Doesn't matter what your title or your role is, how senior you might be, how much money you might make. We love serving custodians as much as we love serving CEOs. They're the same to us.

Amen. It's really good. You mentioned constantly battling, constantly trying to earn the right to be here. And we would never use that language, but that's exactly what we do. And I think work is the primary tool by which we use to use it. Like I am trying to justify my existence. I'm trying to prove that I'm valuable to the world and ultimately to God. It sounds like you've wrestled with this as much as I have, maybe more. How practically do you fight against that lie? What are some practical tools that have helped you embrace work as the good gift from God that it is, but.

Not use it to try to get.

Something from the work, Namely that, that sense of worth that God never designed the work to give you. Does that make sense?

It makes total sense. I don't know. That would have made sense to me 10, 15 years ago. But now, having experienced all the craziness, like, totally. I mean, I'm just going to be honest here, right? Which is I. Everybody has a predisposition. I have a predisposition to trying to overwork and justify people loving me and God loving same.

Yes, right.

I wish that wasn't true, but it's true. And all God is trying to invite me in this season of my life is like, dude, you don't got to do any of that. What a crazy, simple thing, which is like, God's done it all, and all he wants us to do is to be with Him. It's so simple that I can't wrap my head around it, right? And so I try to. How do I try to do this where I don't fall into this trap that I want to do, that I'm predisposed to do, which is like, hey, if I just run a little harder if I. If I do this or if I do that, like this utilitarian, transactional kind of relationship that God does not want, that I keep trying to tell him that we need to have. And he's like, dude, you don't get it. You know? So first God, knowing me because he made me, gives me more than I can handle. Like, I don't even have a choice in his mercy he doesn't even give me a choice. Thank God for that. He keeps dragging me into things that I'm going to surely drown if he doesn't show up. Miraculously, if God doesn't show up at Forte, Forte does not exist. It doesn't exist. And that's just true. That's a true. It's like it's just a truth and I know it. And I have a world class team. William, one of the smartest humans I've ever met in my entire life. John Talbert, his nickname is Enigma here because he's so gifted. It's wild how gifted he is. And I could go on and on about our team here, and yet it's great, it's awesome. If God doesn't show up, this company doesn't exist. And so I don't even have a choice that, like, it's not even my performance that generates results or love. It's the fact that in his mercy, God gives it to us. The second thing is the mission of Forte reminds me every single day. I mean, part of the reason why I think God asked me to start this company is I've, I've experienced the pain of living in that world lifestyle. And so they're like, hey, you are worthy of being known individually and personally and love because of who you are, not what you do. That is an everyday reminder to me. We tell employers that, we tell employees that we train our guides in that. But fundamentally, Vineet needs to hear that more than anybody else. So every day I lead a company that espouses a worldview and like a position and the intrinsic value of somebody because I need to know it every single day. Like that is a daily thing. I need to remind myself and how do I practically do that? I practically do that every morning. I'm a man of routine, partially because I was in the Marines for 11 years. I know I wake up super early, I have a double espresso, and I have my quiet time with Jesus every morning, nearly every morning. And you know, you read the Bible long enough, often enough, you can see the messiness of the human condition and how God has to save us from us every single day. I have that right. Accountability groups. My pastor, I just talked to him this morning actually about like, he knows me. He's known me for over 15 years. He has seen me in the messiness of my life and he can hold me accountable, along with my wife, along with other godly men that's put in that have been running this race for a long time. They can speak to me, the other thing is kids are a great way to get you out of this lie.

Yeah? How so? Tell me more.

Well, kids, you got kids, like, you know, like, you know that kids don't want you because of something you can necessarily do. They don't cuddle with you because they, they need something from you, except for the fact they just want to be with you. Right? And kids will tell you very quickly if you're being a hypocrite. They are very. As they get older, I know your kids, or my kids are closer in age now. They don't really hold back. If you're a hypocrite, they'll tell you. My kids have. They tell me they hold that mirror up and I do not like my image, right? I'm surrounded at my home, in my church, in my work, in the close friends that I have with a support network that tells me that, like, yo, dude, you don't have to try so hard. You can just be you. So I have, I have a lot of things that help me not build this life. Startups are very volatile. You don't know if it's going to exist in a year or two.

They're roller coasters.

It's a roller coaster. So, like, it's, it's less. It's not as easy to tell yourself that lie that, like, hey, you are what you do. And then I'll end with this. John Talbert was with us at the beginning of the company, even before the day that we launched the company. And he's a pastor for 30 years. So he, in many ways, he pastors us in so many things. And about two quarters into the company and it was still William and I and one other person, and he goes, hey. He calls me, hey, Vanit, who's the CEO of this company? And, you know, I kind of hummed and hawed and I, And I said, what's driving? I was like, I think I know the answer, but who's the CEO? And I've eventually said, it's me, but it doesn't really matter because right now, in the beginning days, we're just all doing everything. It's all the same. He could hear me be uncomfortable, right? And what he said is like, vineet, don't ever forget you're. You're not the chair, you're just the person sitting on the chair. And that should free you. That's good, right? And I thought, man, what a great way. You know, this is what happens when you've been passionate for 30 years, right? Like, because he's he's talked to many CEOs and I know I never want to make that mistake again, Jordan. So I'm very aware of it. It's like when you burn your hand one time on the stove, you come to that stove a little bit more cautious. And that's where I am now. I burned my hand pretty good. I'm less likely to make my role that I happen to play in my identity. And so I just know that I happen to sit in the chair of the CEO of this company. That season will come to an end. Not if it will come to an end. And when it does, God's got something different. And so I've got some good reminders.

And if God wants that work to continue, you're not special and neither am I. He'll tap the next person to continue the work.

Yeah, we all, we always say, we're not building a cult around me. We're building a company around a team. So that's been. We built that into our culture. And in the Marines, it was when we used to go on a patrol. The officer who was leading the patrol would say, hey, when I get shot, Bobby, you're second in command, and then Julie, you're third or whatever. And it's like not a question of if, it's when. And so we built that kind of culture here. If you want to build a movement, it can't be built around a person.

Talking about our kids and how they can help us, how God uses them to free us from this lie that we always had to be doing. The last thing I tell my girls every night before I put into bed, I say, hey, you girls know I love you no matter how many bad things you do. And they say, yes. I think most kids get that. I was like, hey, you know, I also love you no matter how many good things you do. Right. You don't have to do anything to earn my love. And they say, yes. I say, who else loves you like that? And they say, jesus. I'm like, yes. But like, I'm telling that to myself. Like, yes, I'm telling that to my kids.

Well, you know, it's funny. We do the same thing. We do the same thing at this house because I. Because I have an over in natural disposition to work for love. I'm sure my kids have maybe directly or indirectly caught that from me as well. And so I try to tell them the same thing. I'm still going to be your father no matter what. No matter the horrible things you might do one day. I still love you. Because you're my. I have no choice. You're my children. I love you. You are. You and me are the same. And no matter how many good things you do, I still love you the same. And Jesus is a thousand, a million, 100 million times better than that.

Have you found that that makes you.

More ambitious for the work? I think it does. Like, for me, like, as I internalize that truth, it actually, I don't know, like, for me, working to earn somebody's favor is exhausting and fearful, right? It's driven by fear.

But when I'm working in response to.

Unconditional favor, I find that to be the most intoxicating thing in the world.

Oh, 100%. 100%. And you know what the weird thing is? I found Jordan is like, now that we're serving so many churches, man, the people who want to. Who need to hear this. Here's a. Here's a crazy one. The people who want to, who need to hear this the most are the pastors leading the churches 100%. They are the most burnt out, lonely, isolated people, unfortunately, in our society because they are expected by their congregations to have it all figured out, to have a life that makes all sense, to do all the things. And they feel this tremendous pressure. But they're like normal humans like you and me, right? And they're like, who can I. God's. I don't need to earn it. Right. And so, paradoxically, for a company that's not quote, unquote, Christian enough, we're very fast becoming the number one mental health offering for Christian nonprofits, churches and private schools. That's good, you know, which is that only God can do something like that.

Yeah, that's right. Hey, I want to circle back to something you touched on a couple times already in the conversation. Just this idea of God giving us more than we can handle. Oh, man, I hate. I loathe when I hear people say God won't give you more than you can. He won't tempt you beyond what you can, resisting sin. Right? But God gives us more than we can handle all the time. Talk about the benefits of boasting in that vinny of boasting in your weaknesses.

I'm not a trained theologian, but I can pretend to be one.

Yeah, there you go. Go ahead.

Like, are you telling me that David didn't get more than he could handle as a young boy, saying he's going to be the king?

Exactly.

I mean, I don't know what human could say that and have a straight face, right? I don't know that Peter, in all of his encouragement and confidence and craziness, I love Peter. Like, when he walked outside that boat, he was doing more than he could handle. Right. When the disciples had to go feed a bazillion people, I'm pretty sure they had more than they could handle.

That's right. Come on.

So, like, the reality is, if we could handle it, we wouldn't need God. If we don't need God, there's no glory for God. Yes, Right. Moses, with all those people behind his back and the Egyptians coming at it to murder him, oh, he had more than he could handle. So, like, actually, I just. My. My understanding of God's word isn't that. Now, if we want to parse some words out here, can God give us more than we can handle? If he knows that he's going to enter into the gap, of course he can. But the reality is in our embodied finitude. No, he get. God's glory is made manifest in things that make no sense. Because the only thing we can do as humans is point to him. Yes, right. So, like, actually I boast in that all the time. I am unworthy for all of the things that God has given me. And yet he does anyway. And so that's the point. I tell my kids, you don't need to aim for something that looks great amongst men and women. You need to be who God made you to be. And in that process, if you're found obedient, God will do things that makes no sense to anyone else, and then we can just be in awe of it.

Does this fact, though, I think you.

Got loads of support here in Scripture, especially with the apostle Paul, right? This idea that God's glory is made great, it shines greater when we boast about our weaknesses.

Do you think that leads you to.

Chase after bigger things over bigger goals, not. Not for your own fame of fortune? You know what I mean? Right.

But does that make you more ambitious.

For the work of, like, man, I'm going to chase after this really, really hard, this really seemingly impossible goal, because I know that when I do, number one, I'm going to be more reliant on the Lord. And that's good for my soul. Right. But number two, when God does show up, there's going to be greater glory there.

Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, here's my. Again, not having thought about it too long, I think the seed matters. And what I mean by that is if Vinit, who likes to perform for love, wants to do Some crazy thing, because I just want to try hard and work hard and. And then after the fact, point to Jesus. Sure, I guess. No, I think the crazy things of life, the things that, like, change generation, like, generations are birthed in the deep, quiet time with God. And the seed is planted by God. Not by you, not by me. Right. If you think about it, God's a generational God. He's the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And he's that same God that we worship today. And he knows what three generations will need. And he's looking across the planet to say, who can I call? Who can I tap with this thing that makes no sense today, but might make a ton of sense in 50 years? And if they are obedient and humble to me, I'll use them. I think those kinds of things, those kinds of movements can only be birthed by God, with people who spend time with God in quiet. So as much as I want to say that, like, it'd be cool if you and I get, you know, we talked about Cambridge. You and I can go to a room in Cambridge, drink a couple pints of beer and then, like, do some crazy, weird wizardry on a whiteboard and do something. Sure, that's cool. It's going to generate good things. I think the things of generational return, they start and finish with God.

It's really good. Has meditating on that changed how you're thinking about the business itself and the work? Like, are you thinking multi generationally with what you're doing with forte?

100%. We want to be a general, like, again. I don't know how we get there. I don't have. I don't have many of the answers. I have some.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't know the how.

I don't know the how, but that's exactly where God shows up. Right? Which is, hey, we want to do something that has generational influence. Andy Crouch talks about influence versus impact. I won't try to keep. Yeah, so, like, we want influence. It often is not fast, it often is not sexy, but it is enduring. And generations of people being healthier, being known for who they are, not what they do, quieting their souls such that when God talks to them through the guy or gal who's spreading the seed, the guy or gal who gives them a good word of encouragement, the guy or gal who gives them the resources to do the thing that only God put them on Earth to do, like that is an enduring thing that could have profound rippling effects across generations to come. And you talked about the half truths and the full truths and like, hey, the work that we do here matters, matters and we can't, like, you know, I don't know how you reconcile the fact that we're a body and that we have all these different functions. It one function is not more important than the other. And privileging the person who spreads the seed over the others is kind of. I don't understand that. So like, actually we want to. We want to help the body function. All of it, not part of it.

That's really good. That's really good. Yeah. We met after I gave this Half Truth About Heaven keynote and event in Florida, I don't know, maybe six months ago. Yeah. I am curious, like, as you've dwelt more on the new Earth, right, that these whole truths, that earth will one day be our perfect and permanent home that will worship forever by working alongside King Jesus, how has that impacted your work in the present, if at all, and maybe even your hope for the future?

Yeah, I mean it translates into everything that we do. Right. Like if you think about like, just like, let's go to first principle. Like, hey, why do we say you're worthy of being known and loved for who you are, not what you do is because we all acknowledge the imago DEI principle you're not worthy. That only makes sense if there's something worthy in you. And that the worthiness in you is the fact that you're made in God's image. Right. So like that's the first principle. So how does that permeate across our product? Well, we, we serve people of all kinds, all kinds of worldviews, all kinds of lifestyles, all kinds of socioeconomic backgrounds, all kinds of political affinities, all kinds of whatever. It doesn't really matter in so much as if you're a human. You're made in God's image and we profess that to be true whether you acknowledge it or not. And so we serve you in that way. Right. And then we talk about unique contribution, which is to say that you're made. There's never going to be another Jordan Rayner in the history of mankind kind ever. God makes no mistakes. He has no accidents. So how do we unlock who Jordan is made to be for such a time as this? We do that with everybody. Everybody has something specific and unique about them that will never happen again on this earth. How do we help them be that person? Because as you suggest, when the good Lord comes, we're going to be able to do that work in a new, fresher, fuller way. So let's get them teed up, let's get them in the rhythm.

Rehearse for eternity.

That's right, that's right. So this thing, this thing, the work that you've done in your book and in your life, quite frankly, and all the contemporaries that we all can point to have articulated this better than I ever could, which is to say that humans are God's masterpiece and we are here to help enable them be who only God made them to be.

It's good, man, really good. Speaking of which, that leads me into my first of four rapid fire questions we round out every episode with. As you look ahead to the new earth, what do you want to be doing 5 million years from now? What job would you love for God to give you on the new Earth for His glory and the good of his people?

I have found a little bit of my sweet spot in that I can encourage people to do audaciously amazing things for God. I found that whether I could articulate that in Iraq or Afghanistan, the harder the mission, the harder the obstacle, the more excited I get in leading that endeavor. Right. So I love to be an encourager, an exhorter in heaven. I'd love to like encourage people that as they do the amazing God given gifts that they have for his glory. I'd love to encourage people in that. I find joy in that.

I do think the work's gonna be hard. I think the work's gonna continue to be hard. There's no thorns and thistles. But it's not work if it's not hard and challenging.

It's not. Yeah. Because otherwise is it worthy of our endeavor? Like, God doesn't call, we go back to, like, God doesn't call us to do easy things. And that is good. We get bored with the easy. Let's. Let's outsource the easy. Let's do the hard stuff. So I don't think in heaven that God's going to give us like stuff we can do in our sleep. Right. We're not going to, you know, that you articulated in the book. We're not going to be bored in heaven. We're not. Right.

We're going to be challenged.

We're going to be challenged. And the other thing is, like, I, this is something, I wish I was moral. I'm working, I'm working on my spiritual. Like I'd love to be a worshiper and I never would have. I hated that idea a long time ago. But that's also speaks to The. My predisposition of overworking and worshiping is the antidote to that. Right. So that's. That's what I would say.

If we opened up your Amazon order history, which books would we see you buying over and over again? Right. Business books, spiritual living books, whatever.

Okay. There's three books that I probably recommend more than any. You know, I told you, we read a lot, quote unquote at Cambridge. And so, which is to say, it drives my wife's mad, but I skim lots of. I have like a bazillion books by Nightstand. So the three that I recommend right now is the. Or have been consistently is the Intellectual Life by AG Sirtelange. It's an amazing book written about who we are and how we can live a life that unlocks the things that God has given us. It's a very practical and productive, focused book, but not in the way you might suspect. Crime and Punishment by Dostoevsky, one of the greatest books to capture the human psyche. And. And then Walden by Thoreau. Those are the three that I recommend often.

Those are good. Hey, Vanit, who would you want to hear on this podcast talking about how the gospel influences the work that mere Christians do in the world?

Yeah, Jonathan Reckford. He's a Stanford alumni as well, and he runs this org called Habitat for Humanity. He is world class in articulating the good work that he's been called to do and that organization's been able to do and to be able to talk to people of all kinds, whether of the Christian worldview or not. And you can't help but be in his presence and be encouraged and optimistic about the future.

It's good. Vinny, you're talking to this global audience of mere Christians doing a bunch of different things vocationally. What's one thing you want to say or reiterate to them before we sign off?

There is never going to be another you. God makes no mistakes. He made you on purpose. Be you. And the world will be a better place if you do. It's good.

Hey, brother, I want to commend you for the exceptional work you're doing for the glory of God and the good of others, but for also being more concerned with the being than the doing of reminding us of our value as human beings, not as human resources and man. Thank you also for your service to our country. We have not had enough veterans on this podcast and I'm grateful for your service. Guys, if you want to learn more about Vineet and the terrific work that he and his team are doing check out get forte.com that's G-F O R t.com Vanit thanks for hanging with us.

Hey Jordan, I appreciate that. If you're of a Christian nonprofit, a church or a Christian private school, you can also check us out@faith.getforte.com we have a a vertical a product just for y' all that's doing a lot of good in the world. So thank you Jordan for having us. Looking forward to the future conversation.

Love man. Thanks.

All right.

I hope you guys enjoy enjoyed that.

Episode as much as I did. Hey, I want to hear from you about who you want to hear most.

On the Mere Christians Podcast. It could be somebody you don't know.

Somebody you know very well. Let us know@jordanrayner.com contact thank you guys so much for listening.

I'll see you next week.

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